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#1122045 - 05/31/11 09:53 PM Menadione?
Faerie Offline
Glider Lover

Registered: 04/15/11
Posts: 429
Loc: Cincinnati, Ohio
I am concerned that this is one of the ingredients in the HPW Plus. From what I have read it can cause liver problems among other things. So is anyone else worried about this?
_________________________
~Michelle~

wife, mom to 3 teens and 1 adult,

and slave to my 8 gliders

Skeeter, Luna, Rocky, Patches, Sweetie, Big Sissy, Little Buddha, and Nikko

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#1122052 - 05/31/11 10:11 PM Re: Menadione? [Re: Faerie]
ValkyrieMome Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 01/13/07
Posts: 10983
Loc: Denton, TX
Yes
_________________________
Alden
"Animals can communicate quite well. And they do. And generally speaking, they are ignored." Alice Walker


Mom to Valhalla; 6 cats; 1 macaw; 2 hedgehogs;
and very many great gliders!

(plus the 2 skin kids)
valkyriegliders.com

Kyrie, nothing will ever fill the hole you left in my heart.

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#1122171 - 06/01/11 02:02 AM Re: Menadione? [Re: Faerie]
Megs
Unregistered


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Menadione

It's BAD news. I read labels and stay away from ANYTHING with this.

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#1122195 - 06/01/11 05:50 AM Re: Menadione? [Re: Faerie]
MatchMakerMagic Offline
Glider Addict

Registered: 09/18/07
Posts: 2785
Loc: Port Saint Lucie, FL
Its also being used experimentally to treat cancer...

It specifies LARGE doses, but not once does it or the quote reference say how much (or little) for that matter do these effects start to show up. Our gliders eat lots of things that in LARGE doses would be harmful.



Edited by Gizmogirl (06/02/11 02:14 AM)
Edit Reason: Edited Text - Gizmogirl
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ISTJ
When it rains, it pours...

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#1122203 - 06/01/11 06:31 AM Re: Menadione? [Re: ]
Srlb Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 10/30/03
Posts: 16734
Loc: St. Johns, Florida
HPW Plus and HPW Complete nor ANY of its ingredients will KILL or HARM your gliders.

Michelle, I wish you would have come to me and ask as well as posting on GC. I do not advertise my diet over here therefore, I normally dont answer questions here but I can and do answer questions over on LGG or through email about it.

If Anyone has any questions or concerns about my diet, I suggest you send me an email to critterlove@critterlove.com OR you can come see me at LGG to talk diets.

Sorry folks, just wont get into a fight about diets, but I will GUARANTEE you ALL, the HPW Plus and the HPW Complete are NOT something to worry about.

I do hope that if GC is going to allow this, they will be doing as they always have and asking for PROOF that a diet is actually dangerous before it is allowed to be posted...per their words in their diet bashing thread.... I am assuming all of these statements have already been passed through admin??


Quote:
If you think you have a provable reason to say something negative about another diet, then pass it by the administration before posting it. DO NOT make negative claims against a diet unless you can prove it first.
_________________________
Peggy
Critter Love
Critter Love® Diet Center

If you want to know what a person is like, watch how he treats others.

You'll never know what the outcome is if you don't step up and try.


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#1122217 - 06/01/11 07:20 AM Re: Menadione? [Re: Faerie]
Trigger Offline
Glider Addict

Registered: 10/07/07
Posts: 3970
Loc: Spring, Texas
I will leave it to the condition of my gliders to judge whether their diet is good for them and not wanting to sound conceited but my gliders look GOOD, they are highly active and my preggers momma has butts squishing out of the pouch and I know that she has 3-4 weeks to go.

I have fed several diets and this is the best for my babies to date.

Happy & healthy HPW plus babies in my house(rats too)
_________________________
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kids Chance, Dylan, John, & Kayla
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#1122227 - 06/01/11 08:38 AM Re: Menadione? [Re: Faerie]
DirtyPaws Offline
Glider Slave

Registered: 09/26/08
Posts: 1823
Loc: Wichita Falls, Texas
Is the Menadione in the HPW Complete as well?

Is it in the original HPW powder?

I will do my own research & try to make my own decisions based on what I find. But I do wonder ~ is this one of those things where it builds up over time to achieve it's toxic level. If so we wouldn't be seeing problems yet.

Also, where does it fall on the ingredient list? Top? Mid range? Very low?

Edit to add: What is the function of the menadione in the diet?


Edited by DirtyPaws (06/01/11 08:40 AM)
Edit Reason: One more Q
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#1122237 - 06/01/11 08:52 AM Re: Menadione? [Re: Faerie]
Srlb Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 10/30/03
Posts: 16734
Loc: St. Johns, Florida
Crystal, It is VITAMIN K

Yes, there IS Vitamin K in the Wombaroo High Protein Supplement and just like with ANYTHING else if you do a search for cons on one product you will find it, if you do a search on pros on the same product you will find it.

A little something I posted over on LGG I will post here as I do believe that Michelle had a question and others have tried to turn it into more than it needed to be...

Quote:
Menadione (vitamin K3)
Menadione is a fat-soluble vitamin precursor that is converted into menaquinone in the liver. Vitamin K1 and vitamin K2 are the naturally occurring types of vitamin K. Menadione (K3) is not considered a natural vitamin K, but rather a synthetic analogue that acts as a provitamin. Also called menadione, this yellowish, synthetic crystalline substance is converted into the active form of the K2 vitamin inside of the animal body. Menadione is necessary for the production of prothrombin and five other blood clotting factors in humans. It also regulates bone calcification. Vitamin K3 plays an important role in the synthesis of hepatic prothrombin and in the coagulation process, having in this way a strong antihaemorrhagic effect. It acts on capillary endothelia and on fibrinogen. Vitamin K3 is the form most utilized as a supplement. The vitamin K3 deficiency determines haemorrhages and hypoprothrombinaemia. In large doses, vitamin K3 activates the reticulohistiocytic system, produces diuresis (in general oedema), stimulates the liver and the bone marrow functions. Newborns that are administered too great a dosage of vitamin K3 can suffer from kernicterus, a form of severe brain damage that may produce decreased movement, loss of appetite, seizures, deafness, mental retardation, and even death. The primary known function of vitamin K is to assist in the normal clotting of blood, but it may also play a role in normal bone calcificaton.


Again, ANYTHING in LARGE amounts can and is dangerous. The amount of VitK in the HPW Plus and HPW Complete powders are not something to worry about as it is put in there for a sugar gliders needs...not that of a humans.

Again, please contact ME with questions about the HPW Plus or HPW Complete diets at:

critterlove@critterlove.com or LGG (Thank you)
_________________________
Peggy
Critter Love
Critter Love® Diet Center

If you want to know what a person is like, watch how he treats others.

You'll never know what the outcome is if you don't step up and try.


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#1122258 - 06/01/11 09:51 AM Re: Menadione? [Re: DirtyPaws]
Marz Offline
Glider Guardian

Registered: 09/06/05
Posts: 708
Loc: Melbourne Australia
Originally Posted By: DirtyPaws

Is it in the original HPW powder?


Menadione is not found in the Wombaroo High Protein supplement. Wombaroo HPS contains Vitamin K1 ( phytomenadione) which is a human food grade Vitamin K naturally occuring from plants.

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#1122264 - 06/01/11 10:10 AM Re: Menadione? [Re: Faerie]
NGS
Unregistered


Thanks Marz for clearing that up smile




This is a simple thing to deal with, if you are an organic freak like myself and believe in avoiding as many bad chemicals as possible then by all means wait for Peggy's Organic Formula to hit the market. She did say it is in the works, may be a while but it is in the works. Case close, can we move on now. I mean really if people want to pick diets apart, please pick the ones that do not do any testing at all!

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#1122332 - 06/01/11 01:47 PM Re: Menadione? [Re: Faerie]
BelladonnasMom
Unregistered


I am only throwing my 2 cents in to say this: Wikipedia is NOT a reliable research source! Anybody, I mean ANYBODY can make a page on Wikipedia! Not only that, but anybody can go in and edit the page that someone else has created on Wikipedia. Never ever EVER trust anything you read on that site unless you intend to check every single one of the citations on the page.

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#1122333 - 06/01/11 01:47 PM Re: Menadione? [Re: ]
Megs
Unregistered


Originally Posted By: Marz
Originally Posted By: DirtyPaws

Is it in the original HPW powder?


Menadione is not found in the Wombaroo High Protein supplement. Wombaroo HPS contains Vitamin K1 ( phytomenadione) which is a human food grade Vitamin K naturally occuring from plants.


Thanks Marz. smile



Originally Posted By: NGS
Thanks Marz for clearing that up smile




This is a simple thing to deal with, if you are an organic freak like myself and believe in avoiding as many bad chemicals as possible then by all means wait for Peggy's Organic Formula to hit the market. She did say it is in the works, may be a while but it is in the works. Case close, can we move on now. I mean really if people want to pick diets apart, please pick the ones that do not do any testing at all!


I agree. If you want to stay away from the chemicals, go with a different diet until the organic product is released.

I don't think there's necessarily any nitpicking on this diet. I think it's a question about a chemical that happens to be in a diet. I see nothing wrong about questioning any chemical in any diet, regardless of animal. smile


Edited by Gizmogirl (06/02/11 02:22 AM)
Edit Reason: Edited Text - Gizmogirl

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#1122338 - 06/01/11 02:04 PM Re: Menadione? [Re: ]
Megs
Unregistered


Originally Posted By: BelladonnasMom
I am only throwing my 2 cents in to say this: Wikipedia is NOT a reliable research source! Anybody, I mean ANYBODY can make a page on Wikipedia! Not only that, but anybody can go in and edit the page that someone else has created on Wikipedia. Never ever EVER trust anything you read on that site unless you intend to check every single one of the citations on the page.


You're right. But a quick search yields hundreds of others sites and articles telling you exactly what wiki is telling you.

http://www.dogfoodproject.com/index.php?page=menadione
(I know; dogfood page. But that's where menadione is most often found, especially since the US FDA has banned menadione.)

http://www.dogfoodadvisor.com/choosing-dog-food/menadione-in-dog-food/

http://www.enotes.com/nursing-encyclopedia/vitamin-toxicity


Am I saying Peggy's diets are bad? Absolutely not. BUT... I do think that it's important to pay attention to any and all labels, such as the OP has, and seek better options when things pop up such as this.

I look forward to seeing the organic product Peggy has in the works.

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#1122814 - 06/02/11 12:32 PM Re: Menadione? [Re: Faerie]
Dancing Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 09/10/04
Posts: 22746
Loc: 80 acres of paradise in KS
Menadione is Vitamin K3. It is a synthetic form of Vit K.

It is used in pet foods and justified by most dog/cat food companies as being the only form of Vit K that is stable enough to withstand the food manufacturing processes. To use K1, it would take a great deal more to achieve the same post processing amounts and K1 is much more expensive than K3.

There is a great deal of controversy surrounding K3 in pet foods. Not so much for human foods because it is banned in the US and many other countries.

But I found an article that explains the importance of Vit K and also lists the toxic concerns of K3. This article is about humans, not pets.

Linus Pauling Institute Micronutrient Research for Optimum Health at Oregon State University

Quote:
Toxicity

Although allergic reaction is possible, there is no known toxicity associated with high doses of the phylloquinone (vitamin K1) or menaquinone (vitamin K2) forms of vitamin K (22). The same is not true for synthetic menadione (vitamin K3) and its derivatives. Menadione can interfere with the function of glutathione, one of the body's natural antioxidants, resulting in oxidative damage to cell membranes. Menadione given by injection has induced liver toxicity, jaundice, and hemolytic anemia (due to the rupture of red blood cells) in infants; therefore, menadione is no longer used for treatment of vitamin K deficiency (6, 8). No tolerable upper level (UL) of intake has been established for vitamin K (22).



Now before anyone thinks I'm bashing anyone's diet choice, I'm not. Rep-cal Herptivite (used in BML) also contains Menadione Sodium Bisulfite Complex (K3). I also use the Herptivite for the iguana. He is old, fat and lazy but according to the vet, healthy.

I've heard/read on other boards that BML is hard on the liver. With all the controversy about K3, this may be where the idea that BML is hard on the liver comes from? I don't know. I know I've seen some very healthy gliders on BML. I used to feed BML until my gliders stopped eating it.

It is very difficult (not impossible) to find any pet foods that do not contain K3. I find it very sad that the pet food manufactures overlook the potential damage being done to our animals when they make the foods they do. Look at all the junk dog food out there (cat food too). Research shows the damage to many animals from K3 yet it is still being used. There are many other things going into pet foods that are likely poisoning our animals. But until the "government" mandates that the same quality standards used to produce human food is applied to pet foods, there is little choice left to the consumers.

Research, learn both sides of the "issue" and choose for yourself.
_________________________
620-704-9109
Judge not until you have walked in their shoes and lived their lives. What you see online is only part of the story.

I could have missed the pain
But I'd of had to miss the dance


The soul would have no rainbow if the eyes had no tears.

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#1123001 - 06/02/11 04:56 PM Re: Menadione? [Re: Faerie]
Srlb Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 10/30/03
Posts: 16734
Loc: St. Johns, Florida
First of all forgive me if my typing seems a bit *off* I just got home from surgery, so between the drugs, the pain and the rest that goes along with it, I may not be the best at posting today and this will be my ONLY post on here....

For ANYONE that is saying that this product will cause harm in SUGAR GLIDERS (only) please show me your proof to this via veterinarian Documents or other links. If you can not provide proper information pertaining to SUGAR GLIDERS please lets not put any *assumptions* out there.

I do agree, one must research ALL diets you feed no matter what it is to your animals or to your children.

Also keep in mind that EACH species digest and filter things different than each other.

Now with that being said, as soon as I seen *Michelles* post yesterday (I read no further before sending the email) I did indeed send an email to my Nutritionist. I will copy and paste her reply to me along with a link for you all to also read.

Also, please keep in mind for every link to *bad* information about something there is also a link to *good* information. What you *choose* to look up and believe is only in your hands...

My response from my nutritionist:
Quote:
Sorry I have not been by a computer for most of the day. I have attached a page out of AAFCO that has Menadione Sodium Bisulfite Complex listed. In order for us to legally use any ingredients, they must be in this book. Therefore, this is an approved feed ingredient. We are very strict about using only approved feed ingredients – no exceptions!! Hope that helps.


Sorry I do not know how to attach a PDF file but a few here have it so if they know how they are more than welcome to attach it.

Also

Quote:
X Other: Menadione was listed in the OP prior to the publication of 1977 edition.
No reason could be found for the omission of medadione and therefore, it is suspected that this may
have happened inadvertently


http://www.aafco.org/Portals/0/public/idc/3.1%20Menadione%20021011.pdf

Again folks, if you have ANY questions about either of my powders, please email me at critterlove@critterlove.com

I wont just find your answers on *wikipedia* (which by the way does not even have the spelling right) nor by researching on the *internet* I will take it right to my Nutritionist... the person MAKING my product. I think she and I would be the most knowledgeable about *these* products.
_________________________
Peggy
Critter Love
Critter Love® Diet Center

If you want to know what a person is like, watch how he treats others.

You'll never know what the outcome is if you don't step up and try.


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#1123124 - 06/02/11 09:23 PM Re: Menadione? [Re: Faerie]
Dancing Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 09/10/04
Posts: 22746
Loc: 80 acres of paradise in KS
Quote:
For ANYONE that is saying that this product will cause harm in SUGAR GLIDERS (only) please show me your proof to this via veterinarians Documents or other links. If you can not provide proper information pertaining to SUGAR GLIDERS please lets not put any *assumptions* out there.


Peggy, since there is documentation showing how it is harmful to such a vast array of other animals, perhaps you should show proof it is safe for gliders? Where are the clinical trials showing it is not going to harm gliders? Since there are no clinical trials showing it is safe, aren't you putting out assumptions that it is?
_________________________
620-704-9109
Judge not until you have walked in their shoes and lived their lives. What you see online is only part of the story.

I could have missed the pain
But I'd of had to miss the dance


The soul would have no rainbow if the eyes had no tears.

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#1123134 - 06/02/11 09:34 PM Re: Menadione? [Re: Faerie]
tjlong Offline
Glider Slave

Registered: 09/25/09
Posts: 1710
Loc: Washington
Dancing, maybe read the post directly above yours? thumb

Since it is acceptable legally, I'm assuming that should be the proof *required*. dunno
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#1123159 - 06/02/11 10:34 PM Re: Menadione? [Re: Faerie]
lovely1inred
Unregistered


The supplement has been used in BML a long, long time like Teresa pointed out. Many gliders have had BML and flourished on it. So, maybe it is not a clinical trial, but, I am reluctant to throw stones at a "maybe". Yes, it is now in another diet. I personally have no issue with that. Time will tell if it is, in fact, harmful. Who knows. Two, three years from now we may be discussing the difference in menadione affect on the liver vs. the iron content of BML, which is what has been thought to be the culprit of the majority of liver issues in gliders. Right now anything else is conjecture (my opinion anyway, since none of us are certified glider nutrition experts.)

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#1123160 - 06/02/11 10:35 PM Re: Menadione? [Re: tjlong]
KarenE Offline
Owner

Registered: 03/25/00
Posts: 41155
Loc: LittleRock, AR USA
This thread has been edited once in an effort to keep it open, and we asked to keep replies to Menadione and NOT to specific diets or to personal issues.

This is the last warning. If the thread does not stay on topic, it will be locked.
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#1123166 - 06/02/11 10:56 PM Re: Menadione? [Re: Faerie]
Faerie Offline
Glider Lover

Registered: 04/15/11
Posts: 429
Loc: Cincinnati, Ohio
I didn't mean to start any trouble. :sorry: I was just trying to see if anyone else had concerns or other information about it. I am currently feeding my gliders HPW Plus and am not changing it yet, just trying to get more information. I am sorry Peggy that I didn't email you directly, I am kinda shy about approaching people. I do tend to obsess too much over things sometimes, just want to make sure I am taking good care of my babies.

I have noticed that my gliders coats are getting prettier and softer since I switched to HPW Plus.
_________________________
~Michelle~

wife, mom to 3 teens and 1 adult,

and slave to my 8 gliders

Skeeter, Luna, Rocky, Patches, Sweetie, Big Sissy, Little Buddha, and Nikko

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#1123233 - 06/03/11 03:02 AM Re: Menadione? [Re: Faerie]
JillMarie Offline
Serious Glideritis

Registered: 01/03/09
Posts: 7748
Loc: New Jersey
This is how I feel about discussions like this. There are so many "ingredients" in our diets/lives that are beneficial in one amount but harmful in another amount. Salt for one. How about sugar? Iron? Calcium? Phosphorous? I could spend an entire minute typing up all the natural or synthetic things we feed ourselves and our gliders that can be helpful AND harmful just depending on the AMOUNT or COMBINATION with other foods.

For every person wanting to say Menadione in a diet is bad, if you do not like the fact it is in there, then just dont feed that diet. I have said this over and over, that NONE of us feed our gliders correctly as I dont think any of us have a euc or acacia tree in our backyard. The amount of Menadione in the diet is such a minute amount.

For everyone that wants to say having Menadione in the diet is bad, do you give your gliders their water in glass jars or plastic? Do you feed them yoggies? Do you ever sneak them that piece of dorito chip? Do you smoke in the house? Take them in car rides? Feed them fruit that was not organically grown?

To be honest, it concerns me too. I would prefer to go all organic. But one must also be sensible and reasonable when it comes to things like this. Put the FACTS out on the table. Then make the decision YOU can live with.

Added: Oh and Michelle dear, you did not cause any trouble smile you asked a valid question. Trouble is caused when people do not know how to be objective and leave personal issues out of a discussion. That causes drama and then people are afraid to even ask things for what it may start. I myself would like to know more about Menadione as well. I thank you for bringing this up.


Edited by JillMarie (06/03/11 03:09 AM)
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#1123862 - 06/04/11 12:13 PM Re: Menadione? [Re: Faerie]
Chefslayer
Unregistered


all i know is that hpw complete has really improved my girlfriend's roommate's sugar gliders' health and i am trusting it to do the same for my girl. for every kind of food out there there is some research showing that it might potentally be dangerous. of course organic is better than sinthetic but we are already messing up gliders natural diets so a little sinthetic stuff probably will not hurt sugs any more than we already have

btw what is LGG?

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#1123879 - 06/04/11 01:38 PM Re: Menadione? [Re: ]
Viciousencounter Offline
Glider Explorer

Registered: 08/09/10
Posts: 207
Loc: New Mexico
Originally Posted By: Chefslayer


btw what is LGG?


It is a forum...http://lauriesglidergazette.forumotion.com/
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