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#11461 - 11/04/03 10:15 PM color variations
Anonymous
Unregistered


Mutation: A change in the DNA at a particular locus in an organism. A sudden change in genotype (genetic makeup) having no relation to the intividual's ancestry

I'm not trying to start another heated debate. I'm merely stating scientific fact. Albanism is NOT a MUTATION. It is in the most simplest terms a complete homozygous recessive genotype... basically albino gliders ONLY have recessive genes. Some people are confusing mutations and homozygous recessive expressions. A mutation would be, oh lets use a foot growing out of the middle of the gliders forehead (for example), not a white glider. Recessive genes are not something that you can elminate from a population by spaying. They have always been there and will always be there but may be dominated by dominant genes.
Genetics is not a simple cut and dry, line to line science.
There are too many variables involved. The fact that there are very rarely white gliders in the wild is based on the environmental factors. White glider + green tree = easier meal. Understaning genetics is Not going to happen easily, [censored], I've got a M.S. in Genetics and it still blows my mind. The thing that seems to be confusing most of the ppl (here mainly) who have posted on this subject is that they won't let their minds grasp the one key element to comprehending or even slightly understanding genetics which is Genetics is not black or white, one way or the other.
There are literally millions of variables that will affect the outcome of just one and only one trait which will affect another and another and another. I've tried explaining genetics in the most simplest of terms (one gene pair) but that seems confuse ppl even more. The best suggestion I have to give to anyone reading this post is to do some research yourself. I'm not talking whoever's personal home page about glider colors. Do some research for yourself. Read (yes read) a book about basic mendelian genetics. We live life and take care of God's creatures, we might as well understand just a little about what is going on. I'm not trying to defend or admonish anyone in particular. I'm not trying to correct (for the most part) anyone in particular. Yes, Albino's gliders are light sensative. Are they sterile? I've seen some of mine produce and some not. Do they live shorter lives then other gliders?
Our first is still alive and he's almost 3 years old now. I'll let you know in about 10 years if that changes.
I understand that seeing the recent increase of unusual glider colors can be disconcerting but it is not a mutation.
It simply is the genetic variance that naturally occurs.
Why is it exhibiting itself now? Well for the most part not many gliders are being inported, and variations like this are what naturally occur in a close genetic pool (I'm gonna catch [censored] for that one) which for the most part is what we have. NOT INBRED gliders. Mutations do occur but what is being exhibited with our gliders is not a mutation.
Again, I challenge anyone who doesn't agree with me to do the research yourself... get a book and look it up. Don't just believe what I tell you (or anyone else for that matter) find out the truth about things in life. And don't think for one instance that anyone who is able to read this post is too dumb or stupid to do the research.
You're reading this post aren't you? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />

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#11462 - 11/04/03 10:34 PM Re: color variations [Re: ]
SugarBaby22 Offline
Serious Glideritis

Registered: 07/18/02
Posts: 5697
Loc: Phoenix, AZ
<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/yelclap.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/yelclap.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/yelclap.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/yelclap.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/yelclap.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/yelclap.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/yelclap.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/yelclap.gif" alt="" />

[:"blue"] Great information!!! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumb.gif" alt="" /> [/]
_________________________
Linda

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#11463 - 11/04/03 10:44 PM Re: color variations [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


WOW...that was absolutely wonderful. i may not know the world about gliders but i do know a lot about science. and everything that you said in your post is so on target. it was said PERFECT. you just described genetics as simply and as easily as i have ever heard before. and that my friends was definately short and sweet!!! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> I applaud you for your post. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/yelclap.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/yelclap.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/yelclap.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/yelclap.gif" alt="" /> and i most definately agree. here is a thumbs up to a very wise individual!!!!thumb <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumb.gif" alt="" />

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#11464 - 11/08/03 12:03 PM Re: color variations [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


I've found some of the best information on color genetics has been researched by UC Davis concerning horse coat color. While we are talking about a different species, you can see a lot of similarities in horse coat color genetics that I believe will shed some light oh glider coat color.

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#11465 - 11/09/03 06:48 AM Re: color variations [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


But if I'm not mistaken (and I have done my research) from time to time color variations can be caused my a mutation. A mutation is an irregularity in a genetic code, sometimes there isn't a complete chromosome set sometimes there's an extra chromosome, sometimes a chromosome is damaged. If the chromosome that is responsible for pigmentation is damaged, it can cause an actual color mutation (I think calico gliders could be an example, but there's only one way to know for sure and I don't think anybody is currently mapping sugar glider DNA). The color variations that we see may not even be caused by the lack of genetic variation available, but by unintentional "selective breeding". Selective breeding is the technique used to "create the perfect race horse". By breeding animals with traits you desire you can actually cause the trait to become more obvious. For example roses: roses originally only came in 2 colors, red and white. By breeding red roses with white roses, they got pink roses. By breeding roses that displayed a bolder shade of pink a dark pink rose was created. That's not caused by recessive genes, but by dominant. Generally speaking, dark colors are dominate, so the gene that caused the original rose to be darker in the first place is the gene that was used to create a new color. By eliminating the receive gene you eliminate the potential for variation, there for, you actually create something new.

Wow, that was a long post, I hope it all makes sense.

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#11466 - 11/09/03 05:34 PM Re: color variations [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


You are completely correct, BUT I feel you (and most ppl) aren't seeing the forest for the trees so to speak. If gliders were the only species to exhibit this trait then I would say this was most likely a mutation but albanism is seen in virtually every species with the exceptions where there are allele's that also code for lethality. In those cases (horses) the offspring are aborted rather early in the pregnancy. You hit the definition of mutation right on. But because of the frequency of occurance the probability that albanism is a mutation is almost nill. What you are describing with the roses is actually semi-dominance. It works the same way in cattle. You're not actually creating a new gene but using the existing ancestory of genes to match genes with semi-dominating expressions. You do create a new color in that instance that is different from the color of the parents but that still does not constitute a mutation. You merely arranged the gene sequence to express the pink color that the genes had the abilitiy to express all along given the proper gene crosses.
I really do wish that someone would map the dna sequence of gliders and maybe one day they will but right now I still stick with my guns. By definiation alone and frequency of occurance white gliders are not a mutation.

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#11467 - 11/09/03 11:06 PM Re: color variations [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


[:"teal"]Agreed! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/agree.gif" alt="" /> [/][:"grape"]c[/][:"rufus"]o[/][:"salmon"]l[/][:"apple"]o[/][:"mauve"]r[/][:"teal"] variation, NOT a mutation! I agree with Wherezat on the misuse of the term 'mutation' in describing what is a color variant. I struggled with my own personal college Genetics, and I didn't specialize in the field, so I certainly defer to the expert here-(Masters in Genetics by Wherezat), however as a former Zoology major and somewhat familiar with the study of basic Mendelian Genetics, I wholeheartedly agree! Seems there are a couple of previous posts by others in the Biological fields who concur as well! Previous [:"apple"]GC thread here[/][:"teal"] and[/][:"apple"] [:"apple"]another here[/][:"teal"]. I'm with Gregor, Wherezat, & fishdoc on this one! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/agree.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/read.gif" alt="" />[/]

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#11468 - 11/10/03 09:46 AM Re: color variations [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


So what would be considered a mutation in color, or is there no such thing? And to open a can of worms(sorry!)the whole brown colored versus grey versus cinnamon, and light to shed on that you informed people? LOL Never thought I'd be in a genetics discussion, now to wade OUT of it! LOL

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#11469 - 11/10/03 12:00 PM Re: color variations [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Albanisim is a mutation because it is not the true color of an animal. A Cinnamon glider lacking pigmantation due to an error in his DNA will be albino. If he breeds he may pass this error on or not. His offsprings color will depend on wether or not his mate has the same mutation. That is why if you breed two albinos together you might not produce an albino. There may be a case were an albanism like phenotype is not caused by a mutation. Mice can have red eyes and normal colored fur, mice can also have white coats and normal colored eyes. If the two were mated and bred for red eyes and white coats they would be indishtinguishable from an albino. An albino always has a repressed color not exhibited by the inability to produce melanin. But in this example the true color is white coat and red eyes. This individual then is not an albino, but a red eyed white. All living organisms on earth share mostly similar DNA. The fact that some mutations are possible or even common in most species allows for the possibility of albanism accross all species. If lets say albanism is caused by the damage of one gene (which is probably not the case) on the x sex chromosome, then it can be expected to be found in any species that has x,y sex chromosomes. Comparing the DNA sequence of an albino to a group of normals (with many generations without an albino offspring) should provide the answer to what set of genes is responsible for that particular albino occurance. There is probably many gene combinations that, if damaged, can produce an albino. A mutation is an irregularity (either damaged, ommited, or rearrangment) in the DNA that produces a change in the phenotype.

Ushuaia

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#11470 - 11/10/03 12:26 PM Re: color variations [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Something I'm curious about since this disucssion has started, is I keep hearing ppl talk about "true" colors of gliders, so I started to do a search on cinnamons (mostly cinni's b/c they are what interest me), blonds & even diff. pics of grey gliders .. Due to so many saying that this is thier "true" color and showing a pic and then showing another pic and saying this one, being of a similar but perhaps lighter shade isn't a true *insert color*

However, I don't think it's realistic to expect all gliders to have the exact same shade of color in order to be a certain color if that makes sense. Even greys will have variances in their coats, a friend of mine here localy has a pair of grey gliders and even amongst her two the shades vary, her female is a lot darker than my male as an example, but their both greys. So isn't it possible to to think that there are "cinnamons" and "blonds" and "greys" w/ different shade variances & still be under that category/color label?

And if not then what do you consider all of those gliders that fall between the "true's".

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#11471 - 11/10/03 12:31 PM Re: color variations [Re: Holly1221]
Anonymous
Unregistered


With cinnamon there can be scent staining involved that has nothing to do with genetics. Their true color is based upon their genetic make up not their enviornment.

Ushuaia

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#11472 - 11/10/03 12:39 PM Re: color variations [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Right, which I've read .. but putting scent staining aside. I know that the color of the glider (minus staining) is based upon their genetic make, and that's where my question lies .. What about the gliders that are lighter/fall inbetween the darker ones aka "true" colors? Where do they fit in?

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#11473 - 11/10/03 01:50 PM Re: color variations [Re: Holly1221]
Anonymous
Unregistered


if I'm not mistaken, animals can display colors that they are recessive for with out actually truly exhibiting that color. For example, my female glider is most likely het for blond. She even shows some of the blond coloring, but she isn't blond. She could have true blond babies though if breed with a blond or another het for blond glider (which my male is...). But since she's not homogeneous for blond gray dominates her coloring and there are only hints of blond.

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#11474 - 11/10/03 02:08 PM Re: color variations [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


So the gliders that are lighter shades of the color might just simply have the gene but aren't considered to be cinnamon or blond ect.

Am I understanding right?

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#11475 - 11/10/03 02:13 PM Re: color variations [Re: Holly1221]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Argh, I don't want to say anything definitively because there is no set standards for sugar glider colors like there are with dogs, but in my opinion yes. Hum... project idea <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thinkerg.gif" alt="" /> would anybody be interested in starting a sugar glider registrar? We could declare a glider color standard, keep breeding records, the works... (I've had this idea for a while, but never really thought anybody would be interested)

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#11476 - 11/10/03 02:21 PM Re: color variations [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


I guess that's the hard part as who's to say what's what, at this point it's really just all a matter of opinion <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Great project idea though! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumb.gif" alt="" />

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#11477 - 11/10/03 03:13 PM Re: color variations [Re: Holly1221]
Anonymous
Unregistered


I had that idea for a while, but I only own cinnamons and normals. There is such a thing a Codominance is where a red flower and a white flower make a pink flower, both traits are partialy expressed. There is a natural range of shades of a color. There are lighter and darker normals but they are still normal. Until clear color discriptions are set down we cannot assume to be talking about the same color. We should have a sugar glider show at the next sgga and then come up with a score card for each color clearly defining it, the pattern the shade based upon paint cards.

Ushuaia

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#11478 - 11/10/03 10:26 PM Re: color variations [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Heterozygous- refers to a situation where the genotype of a particular gene is dissimilar (e.g. Aa); a heterozygous organism is often referred to as a carrier of a specified gene, which may or may not be expressed depending on the mutation (i.e. dominant, recessive, codominant)

Can someone tell me whats wrong with this definition?
The term mutation is being used to describe gene properties of dominant, recessive, codominant, and many others that were not mentioned due to space. These are gene qualities that occur everyday in every species. The term mutation is being used incorrectly, yet again, to describe everything genetic thats not familiar to the author. I wanted to see where everyone was getting confused with genetics so I went to google and searched. You know what every page that I looked at used the terms albinism and mutation in conjunction. They also used mutation in conjunction with dominant, recessive, etc just like the aforementioned definition (http://www.classreptilia.com/basic_genetics.htm)

This is not correct. Most of these pages were from so and so's home page on snake's or whatever they were interested in.

Albanism (absence of melanin pigment) is inherited as an autosomal recessive trait.
http://www.people.virginia.edu/~rjh9u/albinoped.html

This is from the university of virgina.
Albinism is inherent in the recessive genes now in almost every species and given the correct gene pairing and allel placement it occurs.
The term "mutation" is being used interchangably with the concept of variability. As a matter of fact the term mutation (in the first definition) was used to describe every genetic variation possible.
Does this finally come across to anyone?
You cannot deem something a mutation because its not your "norm". Things happen that are not normal but that doesn't make them mutations. And yes recessive genes (possibly at the beginning of time) were brought about by a mutations, but they now have evolved into a normal part of life. The are heritable, you cannot get rid of them by spaying or neutering or taking a magic drug, and most of all they are not MUTATIONS NOW!



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#11479 - 11/11/03 12:09 AM Re: color variations [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


"you cannot get rid of them by spaying or neutering"

You cannot remove this variance out of that particular individual no but you can most certainly remove it out of a population if you selectively neuter all individuals that express this trait and their offspring. Over time that trait will be eliminated from the population because it has no way of continuing to pass its genes on. It will take a longer for larger populations. But the gene can be selectively removed. Indeed removing undesirable genetic combinations and promoting an ideal body condition is the purpose of keeping records and not breeding aggressive animals.

"Albinism is the result of one of several defects in the enzymatic pathway for the synthesis of melanin"

Page 34 Principles of Genetics by Robert H. Tamarin Seventh Edition 2002.

"Variant traits such as albinism in humans ... are traceable to the action of altered, or mutant, genes."

Page 38 Understanding Evolution 6th edition by E. Peter Volpe; and Peter A. Rosenbaum 2000

Ushuaia

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#11480 - 11/11/03 08:12 AM Re: color variations [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


I never at anytime stated that it was not BASED on a mutation or evolution of genes. It is no longer a sudden change, it can be mathmatically predicted and it is no longer a differentiation from the parents ancestry because they are carriers. Albanism is just like HYPP, sickle cell anemia and a myriad of other genetic expressions that started from a genetic mutation but are heritable and predictable traits now.
It has become a normal occurrance and should no longer be termed a mutation. It is confusing to those who do not know the use of the word and entirely misleading. Each particular apparance of an albino is no longer the result of one mutation but is and can be traced back to a mutant event that has brought about the expression of the homozygous recessive. You are looking at things incorrectly Usushia and are not taking into account that things change and terms change. What once was a unique event is now commonplace. For every book that you can come up with that will say that albanism is based on a mutation (which I am not arguing) I can come up with at least one that will say its a homozygous recessive expression. The only way you would be able to have a population completely free of recessives is to start a new population based on animals that are homozygous dominant. There is no way you could weed out the recessive genes from an existing population because there will always be heterozygous animals that will carry the recessive but the recessive may never be expressed or have been expressed in the ancestry.


Edited by Wherezat (11/11/03 08:15 AM)

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#11481 - 11/11/03 08:55 AM Re: color variations [Re: ]
Judie Offline
Serious Glideritis

Registered: 10/25/01
Posts: 9173
Loc: Edwardsville, Kansas 66113
By the way, did you know that a large breeder has accidently produced two Albinos? Babies came from two normal looking gliders. Parents were unsellable due to having had their tails bitten off so were paired together. The fur color of a sister in a previous litter is Taupe. Babies now are about five weeks oop.


Edited by Judie (11/14/03 05:29 PM)
_________________________
Web site: www.MyLittleGremlin.com

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#11482 - 11/11/03 02:14 PM Re: color variations [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Ok I concede Wherezat is right and I just misunderstood what he was sayuing, sorry for the confusion.

Ushuaia

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#11483 - 11/11/03 08:25 PM Re: color variations [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


I must admit that I have in previous posts tried to "hide" the fact that mutations happen, are responsible for every genetic variation etc etc, and do become commonplace. The reason... to avoid confusion. Its much easier to explain genetics to laymen when you just focus on the outcome and not the reason's why this has happened eons ago etc etc.
Its hard for most people to accept the concept that evolution (ie genetic mutation) occurs. I've noticed that once a term like mutation is used then everyone refer's to a mutation this and a mutation that. What it all boils down to is that once something like albanism exhibits itself in a population, is then passed and expressed more and more and more, it naturally becomes a part of that populations genetic make up and hence ceases to be a mutation and becomes a heritable trait.
Everyone get that.. I'm a bit on the tired side and devoted to other life matters tonight to make this my usual long winded rantings and ravings.

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#11484 - 11/11/03 10:19 PM Re: color variations [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


So then once a mutation happens a second time then it is no longer a mutation? So if a frog is born with 20 legs and a second frog is also born with 20 legs then from that point on it is no longer considered a mutation? What number of duplicatoin of the phenotype is needed for a mutation to no longer be a mutation. I guess I am still confused. Shouldn't a mutation be defined as an error in DNA producing an adnormal phenotype?

Ushuaia

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#11485 - 11/12/03 01:36 AM Re: color variations [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


I think what he means is that once a mutated animal reproduces and it's spawn be come part of the species then the mutation goes from being a mutation to a genetic possibility because no mutation is required other than the initial one for the trait to be displayed. Wow that was a long sentence.

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#11486 - 11/12/03 07:55 AM Re: color variations [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Congrats D. You got it!
Once something like that happens and the phenotype becomes mathmatically preditcable because the genes (mutated gene) frequency in the population increases it ceases to be a mutation. Here's the rule of thumb I've discussed with a few of my genetics professors: If it happens once and is the first time it happens, its a mutation.
If the population has a chance at expressing this phenotype becasue the genes exist in the population, then its genetic variation.
If you want to get real freaky and confuse ppl, You can argue that life in general is a mutation because all genes at some point in time have changed in some way. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tantrum.gif" alt="" />

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#11487 - 11/12/03 10:28 AM Re: color variations [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Great thread,very infoprmative and explanatory... or else i'd be ready for the sanatorium. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />
To sum it up:

Genetics are mathematically predictable, but due to the numerous variations, anything could happen.
You only get a probable percentage when putting two of the same traits together.
This in turn is dependant on the dominant VS recessive factor.
Any changes that occur for the first time are considered a mutation, but once i shows itself again and again, it's called a genetic variation.
All subsequent genetic variations can be traced back to a mutation.

Now is that all correct ?

Tanja

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#11488 - 11/12/03 11:32 AM Re: color variations [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/yelclap.gif" alt="" /> I think you covered it all <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/yelclap.gif" alt="" />

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#11489 - 11/12/03 07:51 PM Re: color variations [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


yep thats it in a nutshell. Genetics the "exact" science... <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />
<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/party.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/party.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/party.gif" alt="" />

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#11490 - 11/14/03 05:28 PM Re: color variations [Re: ]
Judie Offline
Serious Glideritis

Registered: 10/25/01
Posts: 9173
Loc: Edwardsville, Kansas 66113
I have been told that this thread will be updated with a photo of the two babies I mentioned above. These two very special little ones are really Beautiful. Their coat is very full looking and fully fluffed tails. I am not going to discribe them any further....as the photo will say it all.

_________________________
Web site: www.MyLittleGremlin.com

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