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#114914 - 06/30/06 11:30 PM Need Question answered FAST!
Anonymous
Unregistered


My husband just brought home some crickets from petsmart. Can I feed them to my suggies? I know about the aflatoxin, but will just a little hurt?

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#114915 - 06/30/06 11:59 PM Re: Need Question answered FAST! [Re: ]
SugarBaby22 Offline
Serious Glideritis

Registered: 07/18/02
Posts: 5697
Loc: Phoenix, AZ
I used to feed crickets.. but not often.

I don't think sparingly will hurt them..
_________________________
Linda

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#114916 - 07/01/06 12:17 AM Re: Need Question answered FAST! [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Thanks for the advice, but it's too late. I can't stay up any longer so I just set them free outside. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

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#114917 - 07/01/06 12:22 AM Re: Need Question answered FAST! [Re: ]
SugarBaby22 Offline
Serious Glideritis

Registered: 07/18/02
Posts: 5697
Loc: Phoenix, AZ
Well it's always good to know for future reference... Good thing crickets are cheap. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I'd buy some freeze dried ones to keep on hand.
_________________________
Linda

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#114918 - 07/01/06 06:57 AM Re: Need Question answered FAST! [Re: ]
vagraphix Offline
Glider Addict

Registered: 09/29/05
Posts: 3080
Loc: Hampton, Virginia
I used to buy them and my guys loved them but the fear of the aflotoxin was too much to worry about. i keep the freeze dried ones on hand now for a special treat.
_________________________
Debra
Two sons in the U.S. Army
Slaves to:
Mikki, Loki & Thor
dogs: Morgan & Isabella
Bunnies Bob & TMan
gangel RIP Wellington, Minnie & Dazzle bunny, Willow July 6 2013, Squirtle 7-24-09, Maggie May 12-14-10

Licensed wildlife rehabilitator - Cottontail Rabbits & Squirrels

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#114919 - 07/01/06 08:58 AM Re: Need Question answered FAST! [Re: ]
bugsmama Offline
Glider Guardian

Registered: 11/06/05
Posts: 745
Loc: Hattiesburg, MS
I used to feed crickets every now and again, but I haven't fed them for a while. I could be completely off on this, however my thought is, sparingly or not, all it would take is one time of feeding the wrong set of crickets for the damage to be fed and the only difference is sparingly lessens your chances of danger to them. Makes me think that feeding them, is like playing russian roullette with their lives. Not worth it to me.

But like I said, I could be wrong. I am under the impression that it only takes one time for the Aflatoxins, but I could be mistaken, it could be something that builds up over time.. I am sure someone will correct me if I am wrong.
_________________________
Mama to:
T & B ~my bio babies
N,C,G & H ~ step babies
Wraith & Rayna and soon to be Izzy & Ali~Gliderbabies
Max ~ my German Shepherd
And wife to the most amazing man I've ever met! smile

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#114920 - 07/01/06 09:34 AM Re: Need Question answered FAST! [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


bugsmama, that is my same understanding, too. I have read that aflatoxins bind to the DNA... I know many people do feed crickets, but I am not one of them, for the same exact reasons that you mentioned.

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#114921 - 07/01/06 12:17 PM Re: Need Question answered FAST! [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


that is my understanding as well- why I have avoided feeding ANY bugs to our babies..

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#114922 - 07/01/06 04:11 PM Re: Need Question answered FAST! [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


I use can o crickets and my kids love them <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

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#114923 - 07/01/06 04:22 PM Re: Need Question answered FAST! [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Alfatoxins build up in the system.. they are not good for them at all, but the chances of detrimental harm to them with sparing feedings is small.. Mealworms are probably better, but crickets are a loved treat.. many people feed crickets..

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#114924 - 07/01/06 04:39 PM Re: Need Question answered FAST! [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


the best is when i bring my gliders into the bathroom and let a cricket loose... they hop with the cricket and try to catch it, its great to watch <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

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#114925 - 07/01/06 07:50 PM Re: Need Question answered FAST! [Re: ]
Anmaw Offline
Glider Guardian

Registered: 08/03/05
Posts: 659
Loc: Hernando, MS - USA
CGarnes,
Along with what you stated, I believe I read in past post that there is even a chance of aflatoxin with freeze dried and canned crickets. From what I remember the temperature would have to be so high to kill the aflatoxin that the cricket wouldn't be edible. I do give Stryder mealworms, but I won't give crickets in any form.
_________________________
Becky
Guardian of Stryder,
my Grandson's Sugar Glider

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#114926 - 07/01/06 08:16 PM Re: Need Question answered FAST! [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


I have such mixed feelings about feeding crickets. I love to watch the gliders chase them and have fun catching them, but I hardly ever do it because I'm so afraid of poisoning them.

My vet is actually involved in a study of liver problems in gliders and he said the other day that they are suspecting that a lot more problems than we realized may be due to aflatoxin. He recommends not feeding ANY corn products, including the (human grade) corn you buy frozen in the grocery store all the way down to corn meal fed crickets.

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#114927 - 07/01/06 11:57 PM Re: Need Question answered FAST! [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/offtopic.gif" alt="" />Yes! I know PeeperKeeper! The doctor on tv says that all of us humans should stay away from corn too. He believes that the aflatoxin in corn causes cancer.

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#154281 - 10/08/06 01:37 AM Re: Need Question answered FAST! [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


when I read Ellen's post that Molly had crossed the bridge I had to search and see what had been written about aflatoxin. I was raised, long ago in a farming community where everybody raised corn for themselves and their animals and a few folks had permits to raise peanuts.

Have you ever shucked a ear of corn and seen pink stuff on the end of the ear. That is the mold that produces the aflatoxin. And sometimes you shell a peanut and the nut is shrivelled up and powdery stuff is in the shell with it. That too is the mold that produces aflatoxin.

We were told never, never to eat those or feed them to our animals because the aflatoxin was the most potent carcinogenic agent known to mankind. We only ate homemade peanut butter, made from nuts we inspected. We ate a lot of cornmeal. You can't cook in the south without it, but only from select millers. Corn is left to dry on the ears in the field. If it rains while the corn is drying, it will mold. Once it is dried, it is shucked and removed from the cob. It can then be ground. It is easy to visually inspect it when processing small quantities. I dont know how agribiz inspects their product. There has been some progress in the last 50 years and maybe they test for aflatoxin with more sophisticated methods today. I hope so.

I don't know where this knowledge came from. It was just one of those things every one knew.

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#154283 - 10/08/06 02:12 AM Re: Need Question answered FAST! [Re: ]
KattyM Offline
Serious Glideritis

Registered: 12/24/02
Posts: 9910
Loc: Phoenix, AZ
I tried live crickets from a pet store once when Keiko was still a joey. No interest, so I set them free. I have also stopped feeding the Can o' Crickets after my vet said he visited one of their facilities and saw them scooping dead ones into the cans.

It is truly scary business, and not one I would take chances with.

Now I'm nervous about feeding the corn from my bag of mixed organic veggies. frown
_________________________
Owned by my :grey: "Eight is Enough" colony:

2003: Hiroshi (M)
2009: Herbie (M)

:rbridge:
2002-2004: Keiko (F) and baby Tomoki (M)
2009: Sammy (F), Charlie (F), Murray (M)
2010: BJ (M)
My gallery

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#154298 - 10/08/06 06:48 AM Re: Need Question answered FAST! [Re: KattyM]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Katty, that's kind of what I was thinking too and corn is by far the girls faaaaavorite veggie. I only feed it once a week, I'm on the Suncoast diet so I don't give them the mixed veggies every night. All they do is pick out the corn when I do feed them the mixed vegs so what is the use? I wonder if someone could find out the effect of long term (a month or two) freezing would have on aflatoxin in corn for human consumption. I do know that freezing does eliminate many germs and bacteria in food. I'm vegatably challenged so I wouldn't even begin to know where to find the answers to my questions. Could someone(hint,hint) help us out here?

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#154300 - 10/08/06 07:02 AM Re: Need Question answered FAST! [Re: ]
SugarBlossoms Offline
Serious Glideritis

Registered: 02/23/06
Posts: 5830
Loc: USA
Okay, I just threw out the can o crickets I had in the fridge. frown Now I'm scared about corn too! I have always given my gliders 4 kernels of corn a night with their other veggies and foods cause it's ALL of their favorite. (calcium added)

Yes, I've seen the pink on ears of corn and thought it was pretty. Oh boy frown I have always kept my cornmeal for making cornbread in the freezer and threw it all out too now. Now we have another scare of E Coli with hamburger. This is ridiculous to be scared of our food we buy!

Does cooking kill antafloxins? (like in corn and meat?)
_________________________
Keeper of Handprints on my Heart, You left your Footprints on my soul.
My precious loves that left to quickly, Peanut, Katie
Isabella, Kiwi, Bonnie and Monroe.

Spread your wings and glide free of pain,
Until the day I see you again.

God speed my precious angels. I love you. Mama.

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#154306 - 10/08/06 07:38 AM Re: Need Question answered FAST! [Re: SugarBlossoms]
Charlie H Offline
Glider Slave

Registered: 11/13/03
Posts: 1659
Loc: Wallis Texas
By the time the corn was cooked long enough and at a high enough temperature to kill the aflatoxin the corn would no longer be fit to eat. But the aflatoxin is not a threat when it comes to fresh corn or canned corn. The danger usually comes in when corn or peanuts are improperly stored. And especially when corn or corn cobs are used as bedding or feed for insects.

The problem usually arises when corn or peanuts are stored in a silo. Moisture forms and settles to the bottom area. Then mold forms and develops into aflatoxins. The aflatoxins affect the grain in the lower part of the silo. Then when these grains are processed into food stuff the people and animals are exposed to aflatoxins.

This is a rather hap-hazard explanation of the process and it does get a lot more complicated. But basically you can understand what is taking place.
Charlie H
_________________________
Rescue & Rehabilation
http://www.angelfire.com/tx/glidertree/
[]glidertree@toast.net[/]

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#154308 - 10/08/06 07:45 AM Re: Need Question answered FAST! [Re: Charlie H]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Charlie, so are you saying that fresh corn on the cob is OK? What about frozen whole kernel corn from the store? I gotta get this all straight in my head before I go to the store tomorrow.

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#154309 - 10/08/06 07:49 AM Re: Need Question answered FAST! [Re: SugarBlossoms]
SugarBlossoms Offline
Serious Glideritis

Registered: 02/23/06
Posts: 5830
Loc: USA
Well, no, cooking or freezing doesn't kill it. It's deadly period. It attacks the liver and causes sluggishness, diareah and a whole host of problems including death. It's also found in Wheat and soybean according to the USDA. (among other things such as Peanuts)
_________________________
Keeper of Handprints on my Heart, You left your Footprints on my soul.
My precious loves that left to quickly, Peanut, Katie
Isabella, Kiwi, Bonnie and Monroe.

Spread your wings and glide free of pain,
Until the day I see you again.

God speed my precious angels. I love you. Mama.

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#154312 - 10/08/06 07:55 AM Re: Need Question answered FAST! [Re: ]
MizValorie Offline
Glider Addict

Registered: 04/13/06
Posts: 2579
Loc: Sherman, Texas
Is aflatoxin ONLY in corn and peanuts? Or other veggies too?
_________________________
Valorie and our 10 fur children

RIP Mary Kate

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#154315 - 10/08/06 08:07 AM Re: Need Question answered FAST! [Re: MizValorie]
1daddyglider1 Offline
Glider Guardian

Registered: 09/20/06
Posts: 768
Loc: Lecanto Florida
i must say maybe we shouldn't feed our gliders anything! just kidding but there are risks and pesticides in most foods unless you go organic. but you guys that don't feed crickets you do feed worms correct. did you know that if the worms are raised on moldy food that they also have the aflotoxin. the cricket farms are tested every five years for the toxins. somebody told me you could find the results but i don't know where. i have used crickets and small mealies and wax worms(only occ high in fat) with no problem so far but my oldest glider is only six years old as she was first we got. we believe we have older ones. but now i have to worry as somebody said it takes years to affect them correct? i love all my babies and adults and they love their bugs alot! what to do?

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#154531 - 10/08/06 07:27 PM Re: Need Question answered FAST! [Re: 1daddyglider1]
Anonymous
Unregistered


If fresh corn has pink mold on it, dont eat it.

I buy fresh corn on the cob and shuck it myself so I know if it is safe.

I do not buy corn that has already been shucked and trimmed, because you dont know what the ends looked like. If you believe that all fresh corn is safe, I invite you to go shuck a few cases. Some will be pink on the end. I throw those away. Some produce markets trim them and sell the rest of the ear. Some will have little worms in the ends. If the worms are alive, trim the ear and eat it. It has not been treated with pesticide. The suggies will enjoy the worms. I would rinse them off first. If they are dead, smell it.

I dont buy corn that smells like pesticide, because they are now growing corn with the genes spliced in that produce the pesticide in the corn. It is not supposed to be sold for human consumption, but it keeps jumping the fence and getting into our food.

I dont buy field corn, also called dent corn, as it is intended for animal feed and not subject to the same regulations as human food. However,I sometimes see it at the grocery store. When it is young it is actually pretty sweet and tasty and I would eat it if I grew it myself and knew it had not been genetically altered to include vermicide.

I only buy sweet corn, which is a variety, not a describer. You can identify it by the shucks. Sweet corn shucks have a "flag"at the top. Another reason to shuck your own.

I dont buy canned corn, mainly because it has no flavor and little nutritional value.

If you like a particular brand of frozen corn, I would contact the producer of that brand and ask them, in writing or email, what steps they take to prevent and identify aflatoxin in the raw ingredients they use and in their end product. Then you can make your own decision about the safety of their product. I am sure that major producers are taking precautions of some sort. This is not a new problem. It has been around for a long, long time. Maybe everyone could contact their producer and post the results.

I eat peanuts; I LOVE peanuts; I dont eat the shrivelled up ones; I dont eat commercially produced peanut butter which might contain the shrivelled up ones; I love corn; I eat corn; I dont eat the ears with pink on them.

There have always been risks associated with the hunting,gathering,growing and eating of food. It seems that we used to have more knowledge about what could safely be eaten and what could not be safely eaten. It seems to me that the old knowledge is being lost. For the last 30 years there has been an increasing assumption that the governement is keeping it all safe, when in fact, our food is only as safe as the safety practices of the weakest link in the food production chain. It is not enough to have rules. We all have to actually follow them. Note the periodic e=coli outbreaks produced by violations of basic sanitation protocols.


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#154599 - 10/08/06 09:50 PM Re: Need Question answered FAST! [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


OK, I'm never going to eat anything from anywhere ever again. And in turn I guess I can't ever feed my suggies anything from anywhere ever again. LOL Seriously, what is the solution to this problem? So, theoretically, if I buy my crickets from Petco for my babies and I also buy the same crickets to go fishing, and some crickets always get away, and you know the fish eat them, do the fish have aflatoxins too? Where does it all end? Can we ever feel safe about anything we feed our suggies ever again? Or am I just being super-paranoid? What are your feelings on the subject? Does anyone have any other "expert" information? Help!!!

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#154607 - 10/08/06 09:59 PM Re: Need Question answered FAST! [Re: ]
KattyM Offline
Serious Glideritis

Registered: 12/24/02
Posts: 9910
Loc: Phoenix, AZ
Thanks, angelskates! That's a great idea to post any results we might find when we contact various manufacturers. I'm going to contact Bybee's Finest in Grandview, Washington, to ask about their organic frozen veggie mix of carrots, corn, green beans, and peas.
_________________________
Owned by my :grey: "Eight is Enough" colony:

2003: Hiroshi (M)
2009: Herbie (M)

:rbridge:
2002-2004: Keiko (F) and baby Tomoki (M)
2009: Sammy (F), Charlie (F), Murray (M)
2010: BJ (M)
My gallery

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#154795 - 10/09/06 11:02 AM Re: Need Question answered FAST! [Re: KattyM]
MizValorie Offline
Glider Addict

Registered: 04/13/06
Posts: 2579
Loc: Sherman, Texas
I feel the SAME way Suggiemama! Paraniod out of my mind! I have another question:

I have been gutloading my mealies with wheat germ and potatoes for moisture. Now within one night those potatoes get moldy. Is this aflatoxin? Did I just kill my babies?


AND you can call the manufactures and they can tell you how they do things all they want but that doesn't mean that that is the truth, correct?

Wow. I am so paraniod! Help me!
_________________________
Valorie and our 10 fur children

RIP Mary Kate

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#154826 - 10/09/06 11:59 AM Re: Need Question answered FAST! [Re: MizValorie]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Life is risky, but we have choices. We can choose to abandon civilization, live on a self sufficient farm and raise all our own food. Or we can live in civilization and educate ourselves about the risks so we can control the level of risk we take. In civilization, we have to trust those who provide services for us. But it does not have to be blind trust.

I trust my mechanic to care properly for my car, but when I was 600 miles from home and a strange mechanic told me I needed to spend $599 on a harmonic resonator, I started making phone calls to check out what he said. (it actually is a part and it was broken)

We trust the vet to know about suggies, but we also check this forum before we go. The community here has collective knowledge and that is an asset to us in evaluating the advice our vet gives. When our vet gives the same advice the GC community gives, our level of trust goes up in our vet. We are more likely to trust our vet the next time, even if we do not have community advice.

When I was growing up things were different. You trusted brand names. My mom always bought certain brands over other brands because she trusted the quality of their work.

Now it seems that price is the main factor in selection. How many times do you pick a food item for the lowest price, without even reading the label to learn from what country it comes? How many items a day do we buy from China? Even food. Do we really want to eat bottom fish that have lived in the waters off China? What are their standards for water pollution? I cant answer that question, so I dont eat their fish. I have controlled the risk I choose to take when I eat flounder. I only eat flounder taken from American waters where I know there is some level of monitoring of the pollution levels to which the fish are exposed.

I do not choose my vet because she is the cheapest vet around. I choose her because she has experience with suggies. I dip into the pool of wisdom found on this forum to educate myself about suggies so I can be a better suggie mom.

We, as a community, are stronger and wiser than we are individually. When we pool our knowledge and wisdom about food choices for our suggies, we reduce our risk. No food source will ever be 100% safe. Humans prepare food and humans make errors. By comparing the steps producers take to prevent errors and to correct errors and to check for errors we can better evaluate the risks we choose to take.

If there are three companies that pack frozen corn and one does testing on the raw product coming in and testing on the product going out and the other two write back and do nothing, then I would evaluate the risk to be lower with the company that monitors for aflatoxin.

Same is true for crickets. It would take alot right now to convince me that the risk of feeding crickets was under control. I think I can safely say that crickets are no longer on the menu for my suggies.

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#155295 - 10/10/06 02:06 PM Re: Need Question answered FAST! [Re: ]
Dancing Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 09/10/04
Posts: 22746
Loc: 80 acres of paradise in KS
I simply have to ask this...How many of you feed chicken in any form (baby food, or other) to their gliders? Are you aware that commercially raised chicken is fed corn? Usually dried animal grade corn? So, are we to stop feeding chicken to our gliders?

While caution is a good thing, KNOWLEDGE is a GREAT thing, paranoia can be so harmful.

I do not feed crickets because there is proven direct connection to aflatoxin poisoning. I DO feed frozen corn nightly because I have never heard of a case where frozen corn was a direct connection to aflatoxins.

We can all sit here and get worked up into a frenzy of paranoia to the detriment of our gliders. Or, we can mearly be cautious and do our research and make our own best informed decisions.

Aflatoxins are formed in/from the mold on stored dry goods such as corn and peanuts (two most suseptable). Yes, it can form on wheat, barley and any other type of stored grains. Where do we draw the line?

For me, that line is no crickets, no corn cob bedding in my cages, no peanuts. (they are high in fat anyway)

I've had my gliders for years. My oldest is about 11 years old and for the first 6 years I had him and his colony, they got crickets almost daily. I used corn cob bedding in the galvanized wire cage. We were lucky. I did not have a computer and did not have the access to all the information, both good and bad, that I have now.

When I first got my computer and discovered all the "information" available on gliders, paranoia got me too. I have learned that I have to relax some and take a look at my gliders. They are healthy (I've never had one get "sick"). They are happy. They are doing just fine. Just like they have always been. So I must be doing something right.
_________________________
620-704-9109
Judge not until you have walked in their shoes and lived their lives. What you see online is only part of the story.

I could have missed the pain
But I'd of had to miss the dance


The soul would have no rainbow if the eyes had no tears.

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#156311 - 10/12/06 09:01 AM Re: Need Question answered FAST! [Re: Dancing]
Anonymous
Unregistered


This is a really great thread. I haven't looked at it in a while. In fact, if you scroll way, WAY up, you'll find a post from me talking about how I very rarely fed crickets even though they were fun because I was so worried about aflatoxin. Well, maybe I was right to be concerned and should have avoided them altogether because about a month and a half after I made that post, Jeepers died and the necropsy suggested it was due to aflatoxin. I have a hard time believing that it was that, though because I fed her crickets MAYBE 2 or 3 times a YEAR and when I did, it was like 5 or 6 small ones over a space of two or three days, then no more for many months. It had been several months since they'd had any when she got sick.

Other sources? Well, I did feed mealies regularly, and one time about 6 or 8 months before she died, I did have some mold grow on the oatmeal the mealies were in. I thought at the time that aspergillis (the mold that produces aflatoxin) only grew on corn and peanuts, not just mostly corn and peanuts, so I picked out the mealies that were in the cleaner area of the bedding and still fed them. Is that when she got it? Who knows? I do currently feed corn frequently, but I'm re-evaluating that. I was trying to do the back to basics BML plan, but my vet really recommends against feeding corn at all to suggies. When I run out of this bag of corn, I probably won't buy it anymore. I plan on switching to PML anyway.

People in this thread have talked about "killing" the aflatoxin. Aflatoxin itself is not a living organism. It is a toxin produced by aspergillis. My vet said it is an extremely stable toxin, so once it's formed, it is very hard to break it down. As Charlie said, the heat required to cook it out of corn would make the corn inedible. That's why it can be passed on from corn to an insect that eats the corn to another animal that eats that insect. Dancing, I hadn't thought about chickens eating corn. Great. I buy Sanderson Farms chicken because they advertise no phosphates in their chicken. I hope if they're concerned about phosphates, they're also concerned about aflatoxin. I'm not even sure if they are organic. I just bought a package last night so I'll have to look.

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