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#115623 - 07/30/01 01:07 PM Aflatoxins (long)
Anonymous
Unregistered


This seems like a more appropriate place to post than "diets and nutritions", but if I'm wrong, moderators, feel free to move it -- <P>When I got my first glider, and long before I found this board, I subscribed to some glider mailing lists. Within a few days, I was thoroughly confused by lots of diet alarms. Someone had posted on something called "aflatoxins" and the necessity of avoiding nuts, skins of fruits & vegetables, and certain grains (i.e. corn) because of them. I immmediately thought "alarmist nonsense", since I always have an opinion, and never thought about it again. <P>Until this weekend. <P>At the SGGA, Dr. Bruce Ross (moderator Ellen's husband) spoke on health issues and gliders. He spoke on a number of glider health concerns, and showed slides and specimens that were just plain fascinating. But what got the interest of most of us was his talk on aflatoxins. <P>I'm not going to try to describe to recreate his excellent talk. Hopefully you'll purchase the video when TC finishes it, and you'll get to hear all his concerns. I will post a link to an FDA link, though, to give a brief but informative overview of what the problem is and how it could impact glider health. <P>Animals (and in some cases, humans) who have have high concentrations of this fungi and toxins have symptoms such as: acute necrosis, cirrhosis, and carcinoma of the liver; compromised immune systems; and rare forms of anemia. <P>In a nutshell (so to speak), it might be necessary for your gliders' health to avoid nut and non-human grains (including corn which hasn't been tested for human consumption), and especially insects. Make sure the feed your insects are given has an approved level of aflatoxins or fungi producing the aflatoxins. Those who grow their own mealworms and crickets may have a hard time doing this, and may want to be especially careful -- particularly during times of drought and certain weather conditions. In addition, make sure fruits and vegetables are well-washed and that skins not be given to the gliders (okay, so they don't eat the skins anyway -- remove the skins regardless). <P>Dr. Ross suggested adding Vitamin E or additional herpavite to the BML or to sprinkle over food, since Vitamin E is an anti-oxidant which helps the auto-immune response against toxins such as the aflatoxins. (However, I want to also add that Bourbon said later that she wants to wait and have this tested before encouraging people to make changes to their BML. While even large doses of water soluable Vitamin E appears to have no harmful effects in humans or animals, we know so little about gliders, and Bourbon wants to be sure about this before changing up the BML. I'm sure they'll duke this out in private []http://www.sugarglider.net/ubb/images/icons/smile.gif[/] ). <P>So. Whether or not you add vitamin E or extra vitamins to your glider's diet, you might want to make sure nuts in particular are avoided, that skins are removed, and that you check out the sources of the insects your gliders are fed. I think the question to ask your supplier is, "Do you test for aflatoxins in the feed given your insects?" This is especially true if you live (or the feed comes from) a location experiencing moderate to severe drought conditions. <P>Please understand this is not meant to be an alarmist post, but it is possible that some recent deaths of gliders can be traced to these food sources. I'm sure you'll be hearing more if this turns out to be the case. In the meantime, it's just a good precaution to make sure your food sources are safe and secure. <P>To read more on aflatoxins, check out this FDA source:<BR><A HREF="http://vm.cfsan.fda.gov/~mow/chap41.html" TARGET=_blank>http://vm.cfsan.fda.gov/~mow/chap41.html</A><P>I'm not a chemist nor a pathologist, so please, Bruce or others with more knowledge, correct my inaccuracies. <P><BR>------------------<BR>Lucy<p>[This message has been edited by lletton (edited 07-30-2001).]

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#115624 - 07/30/01 06:24 PM Re: Aflatoxins (long) [Re: Anonymous]
Anonymous
Unregistered


I too was struck by this discussion and scared.. Chris and I went right out the next day to the mall in clarksville and got some pure vitamin E from vitamin world. Just to be on the safe side. We want to do all we can.. avoiding nuts and things like that and We will proably find a different source for crickets since we buy from different places all the time.

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#115625 - 07/30/01 07:35 PM Re: Aflatoxins (long) [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Personally, I have never fed nuts or seeds to my gliders. But the crickets....<P>So, for now no crickets or other kind of insect for my gliders till tests are conclusive. Now what to use to up the protein....guess I will be boiling chicken.<P><BR>

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#115626 - 07/30/01 08:27 PM Re: Aflatoxins (long) [Re: Anonymous]
Anonymous
Unregistered


I did talk to Grubco today, and they assured me that the grain they use for insect feed is the same we use to make our morning muffins -- meaning that it's "human" grain, and therefore under FDA scrutiny.

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#115627 - 07/30/01 08:48 PM Re: Aflatoxins (long) [Re: Anonymous]
Pockets Offline
Glider Slave

Registered: 01/02/00
Posts: 2092
Loc: Lone Star State
I too am very concerned & thought this site may offer a bit of helpful info -<P>Foodborne Molds<BR><A HREF="http://webhome.crk.umn.edu/~crobbert/CriticalControl/Foodmolds.html" TARGET=_blank>http://webhome.crk.umn.edu/~crobbert/CriticalControl/Foodmolds.html</A><P>(sorry guys cannot get the site to come up I can send it to those interested)<p>[This message has been edited by POCKETS (edited 07-30-2001).]
_________________________
:grey: We will be known forever by the tracks we leave :grey:
http://www.marsupialsociety.org

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#115628 - 07/30/01 09:10 PM Re: Aflatoxins (long) [Re: Devil_Bunny_Girl]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Thanks Lucy. I was already depressed not being able to go to the SGGA, but now am depressed and scared. <P>I did send a note to ZooMed to find out about Can 0 Crickets and Can o Worms since they are all I can get my furbutts to eat. So do we stop feeding them for now? <P>I have another question. You said it has to do with what they are fed. You said you would be boiling chicken for now, but wouldn't that also apply to chicken? <P>And did I also understand that we should ditch the corn for now? <P>Did I read too fast and miss something? Or am I just in panic mode? I don't mean to cause confusion just not sure if I understand.

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#115629 - 07/30/01 09:24 PM Re: Aflatoxins (long) [Re: ]
Pockets Offline
Glider Slave

Registered: 01/02/00
Posts: 2092
Loc: Lone Star State
Dr Bruce said DO NOT PANIC!<P>If there has been no problems in the past with your insect source we could continue to feed, until more is learned (hopefully)later this week but I would stick with a company like Grubco!
_________________________
:grey: We will be known forever by the tracks we leave :grey:
http://www.marsupialsociety.org

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#115630 - 07/30/01 09:29 PM Re: Aflatoxins (long) [Re: Devil_Bunny_Girl]
Anonymous
Unregistered


My fear was that in posting this, it would create panic, and that's why I wanted to be careful about the post. I think it's good to be concerned, but not panicked, unless you're currently having problems with your gliders' health. <P>I also want to take Bourbon's concerns to heart about not making radical changes to the diet until more facts are in. And if I understood what Bruce had to say, we could know some more definitive information as soon as this weekend. <P>For me, the main change I want to make is to check out the source of my mealies and to make sure all my fruits and veggies are washed thoroughly. What I learned from Grubco today was encouraging. <BR>

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#115631 - 07/31/01 01:40 AM Re: Aflatoxins (long) [Re: Anonymous]
Critter Creations Offline
Glider Addict

Registered: 11/02/00
Posts: 3398
Loc: Rock Falls, IL, USA
As for the chicken being a source, it is highly unlikely. Food that is meant for human consumption is tested at a higher level than the oats that are fed to animals. We have always used Grubco and are very thankful for that currently. If they are feeding oats that are meant for human consumption than it should be as safe as you can get. Again there is no need to panic, if you are not having any problems do not assume that you will be. If you aren't already purchasing from a place such as grubco you may think of changing that, but otherwise there is no need to panic. We have always skinned our fruits so we feel good about having done that (just habit because of our children I guess). Although we had considered growing our own mealworms, but we will not even consider this now. <BR> It is very important to know that this has not been confirmed as of yet so there is truly no need to panic. There is still testing being done and results will be in soon. As long as you are using a safe source for insects and if you aren't already pealing and washing your fruits and veggies do so you will be doing everything necessary to prevent this. This post was not meant to scare anyone it was just made for awareness sake. Dr. Bruce said to just keep doing what you are doing as long as you have not seen any signs of illenss in your gliders. He assured us that there was no reason to panic about any of this. Just do the couple of modifications mentioned and your gliders will be fine. At the beginning of the discussion I think we were all a bit tense, but by the end of the discussion we were put at ease by Bruce and Ellen. Such a great couple. <P>------------------<BR>Ken and Danielle<BR>Sugar & Ozzie <BR>Clyde& Laverne,Squigy & Shirley, and last but not least Harry & Sally & Abby.
_________________________
Danielle
owned by 4 dogs and 2 gliders really soon
Formerly known as K & D Exotics


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#115632 - 07/31/01 11:40 PM Re: Aflatoxins (long) [Re: ]
Ellen Offline
Owner:Emeritus-Mother Hen

Registered: 08/05/99
Posts: 7603
Loc: Virginia Beach, VA.
I want to make SURE you all understand about the Vit.E. Like I said and Bruce said. IF IT ISNT BROKEN DONT FIX IT> THis is very important. He is NOT saying to add extra E. ONLY IF you SEE the symptoms of illness. Lack of appitite and activity. We all know that there are on days with eating and some days they don't want to eat. But he means a VERY noticeable different. Please understand that. As it stands now. the BML is GREAT and NO changes should be made. The extra Herptivite and that is the ONLY form of VitE he is recomending should only be used under the situations I spoke of above.<P>As far as the bugs I guess our guys have brought to light what we need to be checking on all along and werent. Perhaps thier deaths were not in vain. <P><BR>I was not able to get the bugs and bedding of bugs to the vet Path this AM but will do it tomorow. I have one baby that I am not sure how she is doing and couldnt leave her. She isnt displaying the same symtoms exactly like the otheres but there is still room for concern. So bear with me. I will get on it and hopefully by the end of the week have some answers.<P>Again Please do NOT change your diets. <P>Bourbons phone is down right now and they are fixing the wiring to her home number. If you need to call someone my number is 757-340-6768. She cant post on the board but is reading it and has asked me to tell you all to "chill". NOTHING is changing. As soon as she learns how to work the PC we got her she will be able to post. I guess her 1957 version is somewhat different than the new one she has. LOL.<P>Any questions let us know.<P>------------------<BR>Love and kindness is a gift. Use it freely
_________________________
Love and kindness is a gift. Use it freely....
My Gallery

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#115633 - 07/31/01 01:12 PM Re: Aflatoxins (long) [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Dr. Ross was being very brave in telling us all about their glider health problems. He was trying to give us a heads up in case that was what the problem was.<P>By panicking and changing your diet you could do more harm than good.<P>You can't just stop feeding the crickets as they are very importiant and chikcen just won't do.<P>I know we all love our gliders very much and don't want anything to ever happen to them....but we have to listen to the entire story not just bits and pieces.<P>He advised that we not use anything other than herptavite, that we keep feeding insects but make sure its a good sorce, and only to add more herptavite if you noticed a problem.<P>Lets all follow his advice so that we don't do more harm than good here.

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#115634 - 07/31/01 01:34 PM Re: Aflatoxins (long) [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Sorry guys. I didn't mean to start a controversy or get people to do unhealthy things. I was just thinking that someone would probably bring it up soon, so I thought I'd recall the talk while it was still fresh in my mind. So it's agreed? No changes till we know more? (Still a good idea to check out food sources, IMO). <p>[This message has been edited by lletton (edited 07-31-2001).]

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#115635 - 07/31/01 02:40 PM Re: Aflatoxins (long) [Re: Anonymous]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Lucy, I don't think you caused a controversy. I think people like me that have been through losing a glider get nervous rather quickly. I guess that's why I came right back with questions. I won't act impulsively, but I did sent a note to ZooMed. I do appreciate all of you sharing what you learn. Thanks.

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#115636 - 07/31/01 05:50 PM Re: Aflatoxins (long) [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Concern is ....with this toxin the livers of the gliders are already damaged since this is something that does not develop over night. By time the gliders demonstrate signs of being sick ...the damage is done and they just drop. Also from what I understand the gliders can have it for several years and without signs of visible illness until it is too late.<P>There should be concern...as some of us will more than likely lose gliders too. To sit back and put our heads in the sand is stupid.<BR>I find this very upsetting as this is something that was brought up on another website a couple of years ago and it was dismissed as panicing. More gliders will die from this toxin many times over than from self mutalating. This is something we all need to be concerned with.<P>Most of us feed insects, some sort of dry feed along with fruits and veggies as well as the BML. If this mold can given to crickets and then passed on to the gliders and also may be present on the fresh foods or in the dry food we feed, is it a possibility that the spores then could contaminate the BML as well? With the possibility of the crickets being over <BR>looked for contamination perhaps the BML needs to be checked also. Can it grow the mold if contaminated by another sourse if the sourse is the crickets or dry feed and all are being fed at the same time?<P>These are just questions with a lot of "if's". But by asking it is the only way we learn. <p>[This message has been edited by Judie (edited 07-31-2001).]

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#115637 - 07/31/01 07:49 PM Re: Aflatoxins (long) [Re: Anonymous]
Anonymous
Unregistered


I think it's good that we're concerned. I'm not flipping out about it, but I do want to be prepared for this, I gotta admit, I have no idea what the crickets I feed eat, so I should probably worry. I would never stop feeding bugs all together because chicken is way too high in phosphorous for my gliders to be eating it every day. But I am gonig to start order from Grubco. I visited their site and like what I see. And Lucy has confirmed that their bugs are "safe". So I'll defintely stick with them. As far as the Vitamin E, I wanted to have it on hand but now I'm not sure if what I have is right. It says for external use only.. but it is pure vitamin e, nothing added.. Maybe I should email kris and ask.. at any rate, I wont be giving this to them unless I see a need like Dr. Bruce said. Thanks Lucy for bringing this topic to those who were not at the SGGA, and to the others for assuring everyone not to freak out. And I should REALLY thanks Dr. Bruce because he has given us quite a bit more knowledge!

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#115638 - 07/31/01 08:24 PM Re: Aflatoxins (long) [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Judie: I am very concerned and I think we all should be...I had a glider die of toxins in the liver so this htis very close to home with me.<P>I just don't think people should change anything until more is know. <P>I hope that some good information can come out of the sad deaths of these poor gliders.

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#115639 - 07/31/01 10:50 PM Re: Aflatoxins (long) [Re: ]
Ellen Offline
Owner:Emeritus-Mother Hen

Registered: 08/05/99
Posts: 7603
Loc: Virginia Beach, VA.
Lucy, you are right. On the way back Bruce said there would be alot of quesitons. He had hoped he had answered them. <P>Let me tell you all. That we never lost a glider or had an ill one (except a rescue and she was in HLP when we got her and fine now) until we moved here. We have gotten several or many reports about folks loosing babies that have gotten them from the SAME pet store. Now I am so afraid to feed bugs again. That will pass afte the waiting period of 7-10 days from the last bug that was given. But I know I will cry when I give it to them. I too am thinking of Grubco as that is one of the labs reccomened to us.<P>The rest is common sense. If you are feeding food that you prepare and are careful as you would be with your family then all should be well. THere is NOTHING in the BML that has been reconized by any Dr. I have talked with that could be hareful to a glider. In fact Texas A&M vet school has asked for the diet after I read it to the Chair of the school. He was very impressed.<P>Please folks, it was soooo hard for Bruce to have to talk about our babies and did not want to scare everyone. Please let HIS words speak and not make more out of it. We really need to get the results back on the report and then we can go from there.<P>Just take care of your little ones. We can count back to when we moved here and changed suppliers. THe crickets we got were from RIchmond City in Mississippi. Then sent to the store.<P>If you all have questions let Bruce know. He will answer. Although through me as he hates computers.<P>------------------<BR>Love and kindness is a gift. Use it freely
_________________________
Love and kindness is a gift. Use it freely....
My Gallery

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#115640 - 08/01/01 12:02 AM Re: Aflatoxins (long) [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Ellen, I know you are hurting from all of this as well as for your babies. <P>I do not understand...."7-10 days for this to pass." Is this for the results of the bugs or are you saying the gliders will be O.K. after 7-10 days?<P>The BML I know is safe. But I am asking....is it possible to contaminate it with the mold from the crickets or other foods? An example is....What if a cricket is contaminated and should be droped into it by the glider. Would it be possible for it to grow the suspected mold? <P>One of the reasons I do not use the Herptivite multivitamin is I know it accellerates the growth of some molds. I would find mold sometimes in the food dishes the following day. Time frame within 12 hours. Glider room is 80 degrees. Before changing multivitamins I never had a problem with it. After finding mold repeatly in the dishes and after losing Gremlin did I decide it was not worth using. I used the Herptivite for five months. I can not prove this as I myself do not have a lab. But up to that point I too had never lost a glider. Can Bruce at least check out the possibilities of the Herptivite's ability to accellerating the growth of the spores and identify them?

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#115641 - 08/01/01 01:36 AM Re: Aflatoxins (long) [Re: Anonymous]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Okay, I'm getting confused here, becuz too much of reading...the point is I should stop feeding Oreo the crickets? Some link say don't stop feed them the cricket becuz it's very important part of their diet and going to start order from Grubco becuz cricket have vitamin E. So other pet store feeding cricket in the bad way?

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#115642 - 08/01/01 02:06 AM Re: Aflatoxins (long) [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Whoa, I think you got confused there.. the vitamin E is not what the crickets HAVE.. it is about the aflatoxins, they can be harmful for your gliders If ingested. aflatoxins grow in grain crops, grain crops are fed to crickets, crickets fed to gliders, HOWEVER,<BR>the grain people eat, is tested for aflatoxins however.. for animals, we do not know. They aren't required to test for the aflatoxins, therefore you should buy your bugs from someone who does test the grain they feed their crickets. Grubco has stated that they do.. but some places don't, particularly those who breed insects for "bait".. just be careful where you buy your bugs is all they are saying. The vitamin E is for when your glider ingests the aflatoxin and gets sick, vitamin E just helps it isnt a cure, and it isnt anything the crickets containing aflatoxins are lacking to my knowledge. Does anyone know about Fluker's crickets?? I know alot of people use those freeze dried ones. Maybe I should be the one to ask []http://www.sugarglider.net/ubb/images/icons/smile.gif[/]<BR>

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#115643 - 08/01/01 11:09 PM Re: Aflatoxins (long) [Re: ]
Ellen Offline
Owner:Emeritus-Mother Hen

Registered: 08/05/99
Posts: 7603
Loc: Virginia Beach, VA.
OK folks. Lets get to the Vit E and the reason he said to use it WITH ONLY A PINCH extra. That is IF they are showing any symptoms that are stated above. This does promote healing. That is what Vit E does. OR one of the main factors. The others are to build and repair tissue.<P>Judy about the Herptivte. Yes he has checked and I have talked to the toxicoligist and all say there is No reason it should grow mold. We have been using it in our BML for why over a year. What I have seen is from time to time if I DON't stir up the BML then after awhle it gets "crusty" for a better word. This is NOT the rep-cal or herptive it is kinda like a congented thing. We believe due to the juices not being mixed after the BML has thawed. You keep your room much warmer than we do. We keep ours at about 71-75% and no higher. But there is nothing in the herpitvite that grow mold. Also I have spoken with the manufactors of the products and they say the same thing.<P>If the insects are contaminated with a toxin the glider has to injest it. I don't think that dropping a cricket on thier other food woud do this as the toxin is in the bugs system. From my understanding they carry just enough to cause a SLOW build up. This could be anywhere from 2mo. to 2weeks depending on the amount you feed and the bug itself.When they reach a point that the toxin has caused so much damange they go into a toxic "shook" (for a better word).<P>The problem with feeding a VitE in capsule form or any other form is that we don't know the percise amount we are feeding. It is not measured out that way. So in going with what Rep-cal says about using the Herpitive along with the Rep-cal there is more of an exact dose, if you will. Make sense? I know it's confusing.<P>The main thing you all must remember is what several people said and I think Cindy said it last. We have to know what and how the bugs are grown in. <P>This goes for all dry foods that may be fed. Any grains corn nuts are the basic's for the toxins. Out of a batch of Ominvoire there may one piece that had the fungus attached. But we don't know that when feeding. It's all really spooky. But with all the sudden death of gliders we have had from day one that have been reported on this board alone we now must all look and do more about this.<P><BR>Judy, the 7-10 days was after we removed the bugs that is the lengh of time the Toxo Dr. said it would take to even begin to see how many we would loose or who would show symptoms. Adding the pinch of extra Herptivite was to promote healing and regrowth of healthy cells. Then he said I should be doing good but not great. That period is the accute time they could die. After that then day by day we should see a difference and a larger percent in our and thier favor.<P>You guys if I am not making this clear please call me.757-340-6768.<P>I am leaving Friday Am to see Bruce in Calafornia and will be back very late Monday night. Until then I will follow this and try to help. <P>I am so sorry we had to scare everyone I hate it. But if we didnt talk about it we could continue to loose gliders. Windys necropsy has come back the same as the others.<P>Thanks everyone. And don't hesitate to call if I can explain more and do it more clearly.<P>------------------<BR>Love and kindness is a gift. Use it freely
_________________________
Love and kindness is a gift. Use it freely....
My Gallery

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#115644 - 08/01/01 01:51 PM Re: Aflatoxins (long) [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


I have two questions.<BR> First, I don't quite understand why nuts would be a peoblem. Aren't they "human grade" food? Wouldn't that mean they'd be tested? I think I've missed something here.<BR> Secondly, is this an affliction common to gliders or to animals in gereral? Are sugar gliders more prone to problems then, say, a somewhat related species like a virginia oppossum? Just curious on this question....<BR> Thanks for the info.<P>Colleen

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#115645 - 08/01/01 02:15 PM Re: Aflatoxins (long) [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Colleen (and sorry you wern't at SGGA!! We missed you!) -- <P>If you do some general reading on aflatoxins, you'll see that there ARE concerns about human absorption, particularly with nuts. <P>The mold producing the toxins isn't new, and it's present in our food anyway. The question is the "allowable amounts" and testing that occurs for that. The threshold for "allowable amounts" for human foods is higher than for feed given to animals. <P>Of course, even with food items that are tested, not every single bit of food is tested, only samples. So conceivably you could get a higher concentration on one peanut than on another. <P>Human problems with aflatoxins have been noted, but it's not as hard on our systems as it would be on a tiny animal. <P>At least this is how it's been explained to me.

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#115646 - 08/01/01 03:00 PM Re: Aflatoxins (long) [Re: Anonymous]
Anonymous
Unregistered


I use Can 'O Crickets & Can 'O Worms from Zoo-Med & sent an emal inquiry to them regarding what they use to gut-load their mealies/crickets with as well as asking them to advise what temperature they use when pressure cooking the mealies/crickets in the cans. Here is their reply:<P><BR>Subj: Can o' Crickets<BR>Date: 8/1/01 4:06:14 PM Eastern Daylight Time<BR>From: jklavir@zoomed.com (Josh Klavir)<BR>To: PaxLG@aol.com ('PaxLG@aol.com')<P>Hello,<BR>Thanks for the question on our Can O' products.<BR>The animals are feed vegetable matter while being farmed...nothing special.<BR>The retorting process is one where the animals are cooked in the pressurized<BR>cans at 80degrees C. Very hot...for a short amount of time. It's the same<BR>process used for canning tuna. Any bacteria, fungi, protozoa's or anything<BR>of the sort would certainly be killed during the cooking process, without<BR>question. We personally haven't done any carbon analysis on our retorted<BR>insects, but I'm sure many studies were done for canning tuna and cat and<BR>dog food, and the FDA wouldn't let these products be sold if there was a<BR>potential for harm. <P>Hope I answered your questions,<P>*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*<BR>Josh Klavir<BR>Director of Consumer Relations<BR>Zoo Med Laboratories<BR>(805) 542-9988<P><BR>

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#115647 - 08/01/01 09:07 PM Re: Aflatoxins (long) [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Hey, <BR>That mean I should tiny pinch of Rep-cal Herptivite Multivitamins on their foods, too?

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#115648 - 08/01/01 09:12 PM Re: Aflatoxins (long) [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Bourbon is going to change her BML with Dr. Bruce Ross to make it better??? I'm just getting confused again.

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#115649 - 08/01/01 09:29 PM Re: Aflatoxins (long) [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Oreo, we're discussing this, but don't make big changes in your glider's diet if your glider is in good health.

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#115650 - 08/01/01 09:44 PM Re: Aflatoxins (long) [Re: Anonymous]
Bourbon Offline
Serious Glideritis

Registered: 04/01/99
Posts: 5333
Loc: Bee-Bopping round SnakePit USA
NO !!!!!!!!<BR>I am not going to make any changes to the bml. there is nothing wrong with it. This is an isolated case problem with Ellen and Bruce, there was some ingestion of a toxin of some sort, they SUSPECT it may be in the insects they were feeding, please everyone DO NOT make any changes till I say the change needs to be made. Ellen has come in and
_________________________
Baybe,My Roots

SGGA

CustomCruiser

BML

Sugar Glider Genetic Project

321-331-1608

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#115651 - 08/01/01 11:03 PM Re: Aflatoxins (long) [Re: ]
Ellen Offline
Owner:Emeritus-Mother Hen

Registered: 08/05/99
Posts: 7603
Loc: Virginia Beach, VA.
i am sorry Bourbons post got cut off.<P>I just spoke with Bruce and he asked that I tell you that we are NOT changing our gliders diet. PERIOD..... There is nothing wrong with the diet. I have passed it through many vets. and my husband totally believes in it as do I. So the BML stands as is with us.<P>Please read carefully what I have posted in order to answer the questions.<P>B. is right that our case is isolated. But I have heard from 4 other folks that live here that have bought bugs from the same place I did and they have all lost gliders.<P>So the package will go out Friday as we had a hold up with the vet Path and meetings. I hope to have an answer by Tues or Wed. about the bugs.<P>In the meantime PLEASE do not make any changes to the BML. I truly believe that it was the BML and only that that has saved the ones I have now and help extend the lives of the ones I have lost.
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#115652 - 08/02/01 10:28 AM Re: Aflatoxins (long) [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Glideroo: The thigns they answered you don't help a lot. The faact that what they feed is "nothing special" really worries me as it is the feed that could be the problem. They need to feed their insects soemthign that is approved for human consumption.<P>Also this aflatoxin is in the digestive system of the insects so I don't think it can be cooked out.<P>I am pretty sure from what Bruce said the can o crickets is still a worry....but maybe he can answer that question.....would the cooking process kill it?<P>I honestly don't think it would.

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