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#1157 - 12/11/02 05:05 PM Enterococcus research and baytril
Anonymous
Unregistered


Hi all,
after following RyanB's thread about his gliders, the esnueing BML discussion and other things i have decided to find out about the actual illness, and course of treatment.

What i have found thus far is that enterococcus is becoming drugresistant to several antibiotics. Baytril is probably one of these as it is given to poultry and other livestock and chicken and turkey in turn is fed to our gliders.

While this sounds simple, there are other avenues to consider.
From what i have read is that a healthy person can deal with an amount of enterococcus, and not get sick or show minimal signs of illness such as diarrhea.

Enterococcus can be found in many places, such as livestock, water and many other places.

While i realize that baytril(enrofloxacin) is not yet on the list of antibiotics that have no effect on enterococcus i wouldn't rule it out as a possibility.

I'm no expert but when i looked at the name of baytril(enrofloxacin), it seems to me it is made up of two different strains of antibiotics, the floxin family and the mycin family, both of which has members that are not effective on enterococcus.
Here's a list of different families of antibiotics: Antibiotics are classified into groups or "families" which include Penicillins, Cephalosporins, Macrolides, Mycins, Sulfas, and Floxins.

I agree there is another variable to the whole picture, as certain antibiotics have to be taken in certain ways, and i also found a site on which it explained that floxin is not to be taken with any vitmaines several hours before or after, to ensure maximum efecctiveness.

On another note, i had years back had several cats that all had an infection of some sort and diagnosed by the vet, and was given an appropiate antibiotic. The antibiotic never completely cleared the infection up, and i told the vet i suspected that the infection (idon't remeber what it was) to be immune to the antibiotic given
The vet then denied that idea right out as a posibillity, and tossed it out the window.

I know i gave the meds exactly as prescribed, and continued to have the problem with those cats.

I ended up giving those cats one of my antibiotics that i hadn't needed, and it cleard up.(i know you're not supposed to do that)

Anyways, i don't know if i'm on the right track, but i get suspiscious everytime an antibiotic doesn't do its' job it's said to do.

Here are some links i looked at:
enterococcus: http://www.ucsusa.org/food_and_environment/antibiotic_resistance/page.cfm?pageID=249#enter
in effective antibiotics:
http://wsuim.org/bacteria/ge1.htm
Baytril in poultry:
http://www.poultry.baytril.com/index.cfm/page/70/title/About_Baytril_in_Poultry.htm

I also have had bad experience with antibiotics, since i used to battle bronchitis several times a year i would get the same resoponse everytime either amoxicillin, or penicillin.

After a year or so this became ineffective, and i wound up in the hospital with a lunginfection gone septic, and nearly died. After that episode my doctor finally agreed to give me strong antibiotics anytime i wind up with a lunginfection such as bronchitis.

Anyhow, sorry this is so long, but i wanted to throw in my thoughts and ideas.

RyanB, my questions after this are: do you give your gliders tapwater ?
Do you cook the chicken or turkey to the recommended temperature of 180 F ?this will kill any bacteria, and if you see any pink it's not cooked thoroughly yet)
Have you been (mildly ill) lately ? (stomachaches, diarhhea, etc.)

That's all <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />
Tanja

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#1158 - 12/11/02 07:23 PM Re: Enterococcus research and baytril [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Do you give your gliders tap water?

No. I give them filtered water

Do you cook the chicken or turkey to the recommended temperature of 180 F ?this will kill any bacteria, and if you see any pink it's not cooked thoroughly yet)

Yes, I cook the chicken until it's all white

Have you been (mildly ill) lately ? (stomachaches, diarrhea, etc.)

As you can imagine I've been a little stressed the past few weeks. On top of the gliders, I'm studying for finals, preparing for graduate school, and coordinating family and friends for my Saturday graduation. That said, no, I have not had any symptoms of stomach flu.

Hope this helps.

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#1159 - 12/11/02 07:44 PM Re: Enterococcus research and baytril [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


I don't know if i should have started another thread but I have spent much of this afternoon looking into Baytril.
My concerns lie with the usage and deaths of small animals and baytril. It is a very good antibiotic but (there is always a but lol) I am on a large exotic forum and chinchillas in particular have died from the smallest of changes in administering baytril. Myself I really hope I never have to use this drug in particular. Now today i see an alert on baytril and cats. Again it is in improper dosages, and cats can go blind from it.
I don't think we quite often realize how dangerous antibiotics can be. You have to be absolutely militant about the dosage and that they are getting exactly what is prescribed. To me that can be difficult when dealing with these little ones.
I know many chin owners will opt to use Sulfatrim instead of baytril because of the risks.
Also when giving baytril and some others it is necessary to give bene-bac or yogurt as a probiotic for the gut within a few hours of administering, is this the same for our sg's.
I know it is a strong broad spectrum antibiotic but I get real nervous when I even think of using it on my little ones , chins or suggies
Just my .02 <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />
Barb

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#1160 - 12/11/02 10:19 PM Re: Enterococcus research and baytril [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Barb,

I find it so interesting that you're finding information about overdosing on Baytril. My vet told me that it was an extremely harmless drug and that overdosing was never a problem, in his experience.

He cited a bird that he put on Baytril. He told the owner to give the bird .005 cc of Baytril twice a day. The owner misunderstood the instructions and gave to bird .50 cc of Baytril for a week before noticing her mistake. My vet said the overdose didn't even faze the bird.

Thanks for the information though. It's an avenue I definitely plan on pursuing further.

-Ryan

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#1161 - 12/11/02 11:57 PM Re: Enterococcus research and baytril [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Hi Ryan
I am really sorry for all you have gone through in the past month.
Well that seems to be the problem though is some animals there is no problem with then others.........
The addy below is to a page on baytril. It also says not to give if the bones are not fully grown but are they just talking about dogs. On pawtalk there is a lady that breeds guinea pigs and her vet will not prescribe it to young guinea pigs because of bone growth.
Did they tell you not to give with food and mineral/vitamins. I just think it would be a hard drug to work with with sg's unless it was necessary of course.
Well again sorry for your loss.
http://www.peteducation.com/article.cfm?cls=0&cat=1451&articleid=1405

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#1162 - 12/12/02 01:08 AM Re: Enterococcus research and baytril [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Possummomca,

I loked at your link, and it states that resistance to this drug is allready develloping, but it doesn't say to which bacteria.

But that does go along wiht some of my suspiscions ...

Tanja

I also want to add that this doesn't mean this drug is ineffective to everything.
But it seems to me in RyanB's case it might be a posibility.

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#1163 - 12/12/02 03:58 PM Re: Enterococcus research and baytril [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Enterococcus is one of the intestinal bacterial infections that is becoming more drug-resistant in humans. Vancomycin used to be the drug of choice for treating it but no longer seems to bring enterococcus under control in humans the way it used to. PubMed has numerous studies which seem to indicate this is also becoming true with respect to animals.

With respect to the issue of blindness in cats taking Baytril, I found the following when doing a search of ENTREZ-PUBMED:

: J vet Med A Physiol Pathol Clin Med 2001 Feb;48(1):59-63

Investigation of biochemical and haematological side-effects of enrofloxacin in dogs.

Tras B, Maden M, Bas AL, Elmas M, Yazar E, Civelek T.

Department of Pharmacology and Toxicology, Faculty of Veterinary Medicine,
University of Selcuk, Konya, Turkey.

In the present study, effects of enrofloxacin on biochemical, haematological and blood gas parameters were investigated. Changes in laboratory parameters were monitored during the treatment period. Enrofloxacin was administered (5 mg/kg intramuscularly, once daily) to 10 healthy dogs for 14 days. Acidosis and temporary increases in aspartate aminotransferase, indirect bilirubin, sodium, partial pressure of CO2 and mean corpuscular volume levels as well as decreased levels of inorganic phosphorus, ionized
calcium, potassium, partial pressure of O2 and standard bicarbonate were observed. The results of this study suggest that these observed effects of enrofloxacin on blood gas parameters should be taken into consideration in long-term use of the drug.

PMID: 11515313 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

I also found the following data regarding feline blindness & Baytril:

Veterinary Ophthalmology
Volume 4 Issue 2 Page 99 - June 2001 Enrofloxacin-associated retinal degeneration in
cats Kirk N. Gelatt, Alexandra van der Woerdt, Kerry L. Ketring, Stacy E. Andrew,
Dennis E. Brooks, Daniel J. Biros, Heidi M. Denis and Timothy J. Cutler

OBJECTIVE:
The objective of this study was to evaluate the possible relationship between the administration of parenteral enrofloxacin and the onset of acute retinal degeneration in cats. The animals studied included 17 cats that received systemic enrofloxacin and developed retinal degeneration soon thereafter.

PROCEDURES:
In this retrospective clinical study, cats that received parenteral enrofloxacin and developed acute blindness were identified. Parameters recorded included breed, age, sex, enrofloxacin dosage (daily dose and number of days administered), medical condition for which the antibiotic had been prescribed, ophthalmic signs, examination results, and the visual outcome. Fundus photographs were obtained in seven cats, and electroretinography was performed in five cats. Histopathology was performed on two eyes from one cat (case 1) that received enrofloxacin 5 months previously and developed retinal
degeneration.

RESULTS:
All cats were the domestic shorthair breed; seven were females (one neutered) and ten were males (seven castrated). Ages ranged from 3 to 16 years old (mean SD; 8.8 4.6 years). The medical disorders for which enrofloxacin was administered ranged from lymphoma and pancreatitis to otitis and dermatitis, and eight cats had urinary diseases. The daily and total dosage of enrofloxacin and number of days of administration were also highly variable. Presenting clinical signs were most often mydriasis (great dilation of the pupil) and acute blindness. All cats had diffuse retinal degeneration as evidenced by increased tapetal reflectivity and retinal vascular attenuation. Absence of recordable electroretinographic responses suggested diffuse and extensive outer retinal disease. Vision returned in a few cats, but the retinal degeneration persisted or even progressed. Histopathology of two eyes revealed primarily outer retinal degeneration, with diffuse loss of the outer nuclear and photoreceptor layers, and hypertrophy and proliferation of the retinal pigment epithelium.

CONCLUSION:
Parenteral enrofloxacin is potentially retinotoxic in some cats, and may result in acute
and diffuse retinal degeneration. Blindness often results, but some cats may regain vision.
Practitioners should adhere closely to the manufacturer's current enrofloxacin dosage
recommendation (5 mg/kg q 24 h), and continue clinical observations for this drug
toxicity in cats.

Lastly, I found information on Baytril that states:

"Enrofloxacin (Baytril Rx) and tetracycline antibiotics should not be given to growing pets
unless absolutely necessary due to the potential for problems with absorption of the medications into bone and/or teeth, causing defects. Use of antibiotics should be restricted to conditions which are likely to respond to appropriate antibiotic therapy since these are not harmless medications. When they are necessary it is obvious that some risk of use is justified."

Here are some links for those interested in the issue of side effects regarding Baytril:

In summary, it appears that the blindness problem noted in cats with respect to Baytril is of an idiosyncratic (abnormal susceptibility to an agent/drug that is peculiar to an individual or particular species) in nature and has not been observed in other animal species to date. I myself am not overly concerned about the blindness issue as I had one glider that was on Baytril for approx. 8 weeks with the dose being doubled the last 6 weeks and there were no visual problems noted with that glider. This is not to say it couldn't happen but I don't want people to panic on the issue of Baytril causing blindness in their gliders as the studies done indicate this problem to be idiosyncratic to cats for some reason.

Some links for those interested:

http://www.fda.gov/cvm/index/safety/baytrilDDL.htm

http://www.marvistavet.com/html/body_enrofloxacin.html

http://www.baytril.com/index.cfm/page/13

<small>[ 12-12-2002, 05:06 PM: Message edited by: Glideroo ]</small>

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#1164 - 12/13/02 11:15 PM Re: Enterococcus research and baytril [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Myself I would be more worried about the study done on dogs then the blindness of the cats though. Acidosis is usually causes by irradic blood sugar levels I believe isn't it. My ex was a diabetic and battled with this frequently. Also the decrease in calcium would indicate a potential problem. I also have been told by my doctor that if you want to know about a drug not to ask the doctor but to ask the pharmacist as they are trained in the use/side effects ect of drugs, The doctors go by a great deal, the info packets etc sent from the drug companies and also their patients input to them on how it worked or didn't work. I just wish there was more study info out there that was species specific for our little ones.
Barb

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