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#115735 - 08/17/01 10:51 AM Prelimary results of Aflatoxins
Ellen Offline
Owner:Emeritus-Mother Hen

Registered: 08/05/99
Posts: 7603
Loc: Virginia Beach, VA.
Results that have come back so far is this:<BR> <BR>There were no Aflatoxins in the liver as the Toxicologist said it is bonded to the DNA in a very rapid time.<P>There was the toxin in the feed. IT was chicken mash and came from a commericial company that said it was safe for hens to lay and hatch thier eggs. It was a moderate amout. This came right from the bag not from what I had used for the worms.<P>The crickets: After talking with MANY Doctors of vet medicine and Toxicologist they all seem to agree that to extract an Afltoxin from a cricket is not possible. As the cricket grows in the mash or medium and if the toxin is present then the cricket matablizes the toxin into thier DNA. Therefore unless you break down the DNA which is near impossible you will not find the toxin. So in other words the Cricket becomes the host for the toxin. Depending on the amount of toxins that the bug has and how many are effected with the toxin is what determines the slow degeneration of the liver, then death. If it is Aflatoxin B1 then death can occur within 72 hours or less. But the majority is a slow consumption of the toxin which could take 2-3 mo for death to occure with no clinical symtoms except the noticed lack of appitite (which mine did not have)and the lack of activy livel (which mine had).<P>I have tried every Cricket farm I can find to find one that does not breed in corn or chicken mash. Cant find one. If anyone knows of one please let me know.<P>I am contacting a foundation that was reccommed to me for a grant for the DR's that involved to continue thier studies on this. <P>As we don't know at this time what the leithel limit for gliders are this is something they are all trying to find out. Pockets is working on it from her end and the Dr's from thier connections in OZ.<P>I hope to be able to give more info as soon as it comes out. Hopefully sometime next week.<P>Texas A&M Toxocologist still believes it is the crickets and thier history. Along with him are Dr. Deerinfield from the Bronx Zoo and the Noble foundation. To list all that I have spoken with would take a page.<P>As Dr. Reagor said right now it is a hit or miss situation. We got hit.<P>His is contating the compay that made the chicken mash. I dont remember the name as he has the bag and I didnt ask as he is handling it.<BR>
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#115736 - 08/17/01 12:14 PM Re: Prelimary results of Aflatoxins [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Wow, that's a non-answer! A lot of information but still more questions. I know you both and the rest of us were hoping for something definite. I hope the research can be continued and more answers found. <P>Hang in there!

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#115737 - 08/17/01 01:14 PM Re: Prelimary results of Aflatoxins [Re: ]
Ellen Offline
Owner:Emeritus-Mother Hen

Registered: 08/05/99
Posts: 7603
Loc: Virginia Beach, VA.
Acutally it is some answer:<P>As the cricket grows in the mash or medium and if the toxin is present then the cricket matablizes the toxin into thier DNA. Therefore unless you break down the DNA which is near impossible you will not find the toxin. So in other words the Cricket becomes the host for the toxin. Depending on the amount of toxins that the bug has and how many are effected with the toxin is what determines the slow degeneration of the liver, then death. If it is Aflatoxin B1 then death can occur within 72 hours or less. But the majority is a slow consumption of the toxin which could take 2-3 mo for death to occure with no clinical symtoms except the noticed lack of appitite (which mine did not have)and the lack of activy livel (which mine had).<BR> <BR>If you read that it says that the bedding in which the crickets are raised can and often do have an aflatoxin level. THe cricket builds up a level that it can live with and becomes a host. THe glider eats them and the level builds up in the glider.<P>I know this sounds vague but in speaking with the Dr's they feel this is the problem. We will not be feeding crickets anylonger. They are just not regulating the Aflatoxin's in the feed.<P>If someone has a better answer please let me know.
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#115738 - 08/17/01 03:22 PM Re: Prelimary results of Aflatoxins [Re: ]
Ellen Offline
Owner:Emeritus-Mother Hen

Registered: 08/05/99
Posts: 7603
Loc: Virginia Beach, VA.
I am so sorry. After reading the post I made I feel badly. I am feeling very sad right now due to what I have been told. My guys love crickets so much and I am so scared to even try to give them any more. Please understand this is MY fear.<P>Since they have been off the crickets for about 23 days they are different gliders. They are so active and almost like they have been reborn.<P>So what do I do? Fear has taken over me. I am even afraid of mealies. So don't let me scare YOU. Like I said before if's it's broken don't fix it.<P>We have been rotating protiens. Eggs, chicken, yogart, chicken livers and such.<P>I really hope I can get a better answer soon. They are all working on it.<P>I am again sorry if my post sounds to you the way it sounds to me. BUt after losing 5 gliders in less than a month I am just scared to death.<P>------------------<BR>Love and kindness is a gift. Use it freely
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#115739 - 08/17/01 03:33 PM Re: Prelimary results of Aflatoxins [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


I understand your fear but don't understand your post. I just don't think I am smart enough to comprehend it all!<P>So its in the bedding and not the feed? Is thta right? So what is a safe bedding for crickets?<P>Do mealworms usually use the same bedding?<P>I know you are very upset right now and you should not have to answer anymore questions.<P>When you are feelign better maybe you will be able to answer questiojns. I don't know how you are dealing with such a terrible loss...I know it must seem unbearable.<P>Take some time for yourself!!!

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#115740 - 08/17/01 03:35 PM Re: Prelimary results of Aflatoxins [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


So if we raise our own crickets and/or mealworms can we then provide our little guys a safe food source?

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#115741 - 08/17/01 03:51 PM Re: Prelimary results of Aflatoxins [Re: ]
Ellen Offline
Owner:Emeritus-Mother Hen

Registered: 08/05/99
Posts: 7603
Loc: Virginia Beach, VA.
You are right Beck, it is hard. But let me try to simplify it if I can.<P>The chicken mash from the bag that I sent in had the toxin. <BR>I had mealies. BUT they got very few from there. We had started with oatmeal and had only changed maybe a week before Bear died. They may have had a few worms but I really don't think so as most were beatles then. We were told that they used the mash to grow and it was ok. <P>So bottom line is the commercial bag of chicken mash HAD the toxin. And what he tested came directly from the bag.<P>Every farm I have called has told me they use chicken mash or meal for thier bugs.<P>What the Tox. DR. said was that if it was in the bedding or food or where ever they were raised then the crickets could be the host. <P>He is POUNDING that into my head. He said that I would have had to be feeding the toxin for at least 2-3mo for thier livers to look like they did. It was a slow process. THe crickets I got all came from the same place. I have fead them since I moved here in April.<P>So Yes the beading and the food are the same.<P>The ones I had came from Richmond City in Mississippi.And were bought in a quanity of 500 and frozen as soon as we got them home.<P>Gliderguys, I don't know. Since our bag had the toxin and it was susposed to be the top of the line and suited for hens to lay eggs and raise chicks. I don't know that much about raising crickets and only limited about mealies. My husband did the worms and has done them before BUT he used oatmeal with potatoes and apple not the mash. All I know is we had so many beatles for so long and not worms. Maybe little ones that were just starting to grown. So we did not feed mealies for a long time. <P><p>[This message has been edited by Ellen (edited 08-17-2001).]
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#115742 - 08/17/01 11:20 PM Re: Prelimary results of Aflatoxins [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Ellen,<P>From what I understand of your post is that almost all commercial crickt farms are feeding chicken feed. So,it is possible that this may infect more crickets which in turn could infect the animals that are eating the crickets. Which means that all of the cricket farms could possibly be infected with a certain amount of the toxin.<BR>With this in mind I can see how it "hit and misses".<P>I for one do not want to posion my gliders with this dreadful toxin so the only way to be safe is not to feed crickts. I do not want to take the chance of a possible hit no matter how low the percentage is of it even happening. I would not be able to live with myself as I would become a basket case and more than likely they would have to lock me up and throw away the key.<P>I thank you and your husband and to all the others who have been working on this problem.<BR>Your gliders did not die in vain. They in turn will save many other glider lives. <P>Again, I thank you and all.<P>Judie <P>

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#115743 - 08/19/01 11:11 PM Re: Prelimary results of Aflatoxins [Re: Anonymous]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Hi I you are breeding crickets you could try makeing your own massh ,I use oat meal run through a blinder till it is flower and then mix in some corn meal peet moss and grass clippings and veggy cuttings.works good for mealworms too<P>------------------<BR>doug

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#115744 - 08/20/01 06:48 AM Re: Prelimary results of Aflatoxins [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Axvan, unfortunately, this wouldn't necessarily help. Doing it yourself (without testing equipment) would mean you don't know if your mash has a high level of aflatoxins, which are byproducts produced by molds. They occur naturally in the environment, most often hosted by grains and grasses. Particularly if your area has been drought prone, you are at risk of these toxins if you use your own grasses and make your own feed. <P>Commercial feed is controlled by FDA regulations and testing does occur. A higher level is allowed for commercial feed than for human consumption. The problem is that we don't know what levels are toxic for gliders.

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#115745 - 08/20/01 07:07 AM Re: Prelimary results of Aflatoxins [Re: Anonymous]
Anonymous
Unregistered


I use a mix of "Human" rolled oats, corn meal, wheat germ, Bran, and apples for moisture. I've not had any mold problems and the meal worms thrive. Several friends in the teaching business have been raising Tenebrio molitor now for several years with out any problems.<P>I would never use chicken mash or scratch since there are chemicals added to protect the chicken against diseases. Additionally the bags invariably come with bugs that eat the mash. When I raised chicks for 2 years at a Children's Museum, I found that I had to freeze the 25 pound sack of chick starter to kill the bugs.<P>To lessen the possibility of mold and other thinds, I just feed Human food types.

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#115746 - 08/20/01 11:45 PM Re: Prelimary results of Aflatoxins [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


The aflatoxins stick to the DNA so even if you raise your own insects you have to be careful of any insects you boaught in order to start raising them.<P>Ellen can you post those levels of moisture in the air that can produce aflatoxins?<P><BR>Without testing the aflatoxins are not visible, and they cna be produced if there is too much or too little moisture in the air.

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#115747 - 08/20/01 04:07 PM Re: Prelimary results of Aflatoxins [Re: ]
Ellen Offline
Owner:Emeritus-Mother Hen

Registered: 08/05/99
Posts: 7603
Loc: Virginia Beach, VA.
Beck I believe it is less than 15% or more than 30%. anything below or above those ranges can grow the nasty stuff.<BR> I have been on the phone today with the Noble inst. and he was saying that even when they test thier feed it shows toxins but they delute it for the weight of the animal. They deal with larger animals.<P>We talked to 2 Dr.'s in OZ last night and they both said they don't have this problem there as they dont use corn at all. It is expensive there. But also said they wouldnt bread any bugs no matter what in anything except oats. <P>Still checking and have talks scheudled with more folks that are in on the processing of feed.<P>It seems the 'Delta" belt is the worse for Aflatoxins due to the winds and the droughts. It has been said (Noble Inst) that any state in the Delat basin should be on the tip top of testing. They lost several heard of cattle last year due to this.<P>My bugs came from Mississippi. Delta belt.<P>So if I was going to grow my own bugs I would stay away from anything that has corn or anything to do with corn.<P>The only corn we feed is frozen corn from Birdseye. And that is in the mixture of mix veggies we feed.<P>------------------<BR>Love and kindness is a gift. Use it freely<p>[This message has been edited by Ellen (edited 08-20-2001).]
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#115748 - 08/20/01 07:49 PM Re: Prelimary results of Aflatoxins [Re: ]
Ellen Offline
Owner:Emeritus-Mother Hen

Registered: 08/05/99
Posts: 7603
Loc: Virginia Beach, VA.
For those who have already read my privious post I left out they use wheat bran too. Sorry.
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#115749 - 08/21/01 09:51 AM Re: Prelimary results of Aflatoxins [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


In the other Aflatoxins post, I indicated that ZooMed had not really answered my questions when I first emailled them so I sent them a second email but never heard back from them. Someone else also indicated that ZOoMed had not responded their inquires either. I, therefore, used my other screen name/email address & sent a another email to them over the weekend {pretending to be a different customer []http://www.sugarglider.net/ubb/images/icons/wink.gif[/] } and raised the issue of what they use for the bedding/feed given what Ellen has learned. I got an acknowledgement today that ZooMed has had several inquiries into the issue of aflatoxins & what they use to bed/feed their crickets/mealies with & the guy who can answer these questions is out of town until Thursday. Heather of ZooMed promised that when he returns, he will contact me to address the aflatoxin/bedding/feed issues. <BR>I have my calendar marked to follow up with ZooMed on Friday if I do not hear from them prior to that. It appears that ZooMed is now willing to consider responding to customers' concerns about the aflatoxins' issue since more & more people are emailling them about it. I know there are many out there who use ZooMed's Can 'O Crickets/Can 'O Worms & have concerns about continuing use of these products. If you have not done so already, I am asking that you email ZooMed advising that you've heard about the aflatoxin issue and want answers as to what they use to bed/feed their crickets/mealies as well as asking them whether they do any regular aflatoxin testing on the bedding/feed & what the results have been. If ZooMed continues receiving emails on this issue, they will be hard-pressed to ignore their customers. One good thing is that they are located in San Luis Obispo, California which is not a part of the Delta Belt<P>ZooMed's email address is:<P>zoomed@zoomed.com<p>[This message has been edited by Glideroo (edited 08-21-2001).]

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#115750 - 08/21/01 03:23 PM Re: Prelimary results of Aflatoxins [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Glideroo, we must have been thinking about the same thing. I too wrote them back but under the same name. It was rather lengthy but I posed the questions again and asked them if they realized that by ignoring all of our letters that they were leaving us to draw our own conclusions. I guess we will see come Friday. []http://www.sugarglider.net/ubb/images/icons/smile.gif[/] I have stopped using the crickets for now, but it is putting me in a fix cause my crew won't eat live or freeze dried.

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#115751 - 08/21/01 04:08 PM Re: Prelimary results of Aflatoxins [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Has umm anyone called Petco? I buy my crickets and meal worms from petco...My mealworms seem to come in this...wood stuff..im unsure what it is...I also dont know what they feed their crickets..or use for bedding...because they keep the crickets in the back.. I am just wondering if anyone has called them?

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#115752 - 08/21/01 04:45 PM Re: Prelimary results of Aflatoxins [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


I should have sent an email to zoomed before today but I guess I figured they would answer you glideroo...so i had not. I had no idea they were avoiding people!! So I just sent them an email. I am the sole reason my petsmart even sells their products!! They stopped for a while and I keept complaining so they brought them back. Everytime i go to petsmart I buy ALL the cans they have.<P>I cna't believe the company would treat everyoen with such direspect as avoidance and ignoring people.

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#115753 - 08/21/01 04:58 PM Re: Prelimary results of Aflatoxins [Re: ]
Ellen Offline
Owner:Emeritus-Mother Hen

Registered: 08/05/99
Posts: 7603
Loc: Virginia Beach, VA.
Lucy, I have called Grubco 3 times. The first time a lady said it was oats then I called back and another lady said she had to call Tenn. as that is where they were (the crickets) and she called back and said it was "chicken mash". So today I called again and asked for Dale and he wasnt in and they asked what message I wanted to leave and the purpose of my call, when I told her she said she could answer the question "it's chicken mash".<P>So who do I beleive? <P>------------------<BR>Love and kindness is a gift. Use it freely
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#115754 - 08/21/01 06:48 PM Re: Prelimary results of Aflatoxins [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Good question, but I asked Dale (by email) to come on the board when he got back from vacation. We definitely need answers. He told me he wasn't familiar with aflatoxins (therefore he doesn't test for them -- did you know there are kits?) but that it was "regular oats-the kind you and I eat in our morning muffins" that he used to raise his insects. <P>I'm sure we'll have an answer soon --

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#115755 - 08/21/01 07:13 PM Re: Prelimary results of Aflatoxins [Re: Anonymous]
Ellen Offline
Owner:Emeritus-Mother Hen

Registered: 08/05/99
Posts: 7603
Loc: Virginia Beach, VA.
Lucy, I know there are portable lights and a type of kit. They work pretty much like the black light test. I understand they are like $50,000.00 For one. One of the researches I have been talking to wants to get one for her Zoo.<P>I do hope we hear from him soon. He needs to know what info his people are putting out there if what they say is not true.<P>------------------<BR>Love and kindness is a gift. Use it freely
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#115756 - 08/21/01 08:42 PM Re: Prelimary results of Aflatoxins [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Beck: that's why I posted. Seems the more people who email them about the aflatoxin, bedding/feed issues, the more ZooMed is likely to sit up & take note that they need to respond or possibly lose business. Again, I urge anyone on the board who uses the ZooMed Can 'O Worms & Can 'O Crickets to email ZooMed with their concerns about what<BR>bedding/feed they are using for their crickets/mealies. The more people that pressure them the better & the more likely ZooMed is to re-structure their insect farming methods (if needed) to allay concerns of their customers. Email address for ZooMed again is:<P>zoomed@zoomed.com

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#115757 - 08/22/01 09:42 AM Re: Prelimary results of Aflatoxins [Re: ]
Ellen Offline
Owner:Emeritus-Mother Hen

Registered: 08/05/99
Posts: 7603
Loc: Virginia Beach, VA.
You asked about a Kit for toxins. here is one site I found.<BR><A HREF="http://www.ids-kits.com/mycot.html" TARGET=_blank>http://www.ids-kits.com/mycot.html</A><P>There are more. But this seems to have the whole thing in it. Don't know about prices.<P>I spoke with Dale at Grubco this morning and he does use some corn in his mixture for crickets. But he is doing some checking into what grade and how it is done at the site. He will email me or Lucy with his findings. <BR>As far as mealies he does use oat or wheat to grow them in and he said it is fit for human consumption. Very nice man.<P><P>------------------<BR>Love and kindness is a gift. Use it freely
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#115758 - 08/22/01 09:47 AM Re: Prelimary results of Aflatoxins [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


I e-mailed ZooMed last night & got this response from them a few minutes ago:<P>Thank you for writing us your concerns. To tell you the truth, we<BR>have never heard of aflatoxins until a week ago when we started getting<BR>emails about our Can O' Cricket/worm products. Today I will be contacting<BR>the laboratory where our crickets are 'grown' and find out what types of<BR>testing and information they have about aflatoxins, then I will email<BR>everyone and post a message on the sugar glider site you provided me. I<BR>will be doing some research on aflatoxins this morning to find out more<BR>about them. If you have any further questions, please let me know.<P>Your friend at Zoo Med, <P>@>-----<---------<-------------<BR>Heather Wilkins<BR>Animal Systems Specialist<BR>Zoo Med Laboratories<BR>3100 McMillan Rd.<BR>San Luis Obispo, Ca 93401<BR>(805)542-9988<BR>(805)542-9295 fax<BR>Happy Herping!!!!<BR><p>[This message has been edited by zoebird (edited 08-22-2001).]

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#115759 - 08/23/01 06:16 PM Re: Prelimary results of Aflatoxins [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Just got this message back from Zoomed.<P>I'd first like to apologize for the delay in our response. Your<BR>email was one of the first emails we received about Aflatoxins. Upon its<BR>arrival, we really did not know what it was, so we could not send an<BR>appropriate response. We have been looking into the issue and have received<BR>many more emails about the same concerns. I have sent the following email<BR>to all our email inquires: <P><BR>Dear Concerned Sugar Glider owner,<P>Due to the large volume of Aflatoxin emails and questions we have<BR>had recently, we have elected to send our product, Can O' Crickets, to a<BR>laboratory to be tested. We realize this toxin is caused by the use of corn<BR>as a bedding while housing and growing crickets and mealworms. Upon the<BR>return of the results, we will make an official statement as to the safety<BR>of our products. We will provide the statement to all who email, as well as<BR>on the <A HREF="http://www.sugarglider.net" TARGET=_blank>www.sugarglider.net</A> <http://www.sugarglider.net> website. If you<BR>have any further questions, please let me know.<P>Your friend at Zoo Med, <BR>@>-----<---------<-------------<BR>Heather Wilkins<P>Looks like they are trying and do seem concerned. I will just keep my fingers crossed.<P>Beck, I was wondering the same thing as they hadn't answered any of mine (3) until now. In the first part of the letter they did say they didn't know how to respond. It does seem they are making the effort.<P><BR><p>[This message has been edited by Gliderluv (edited 08-23-2001).]

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#115760 - 08/23/01 06:25 PM Re: Prelimary results of Aflatoxins [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Way to go, everybody! Results! This is progress. Who says that grass roots work doesn't pay off? This is terrific. Grubco's checking into things, and so is ZooMed. I couldn't be prouder of our community here!

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#115761 - 08/23/01 07:18 PM Re: Prelimary results of Aflatoxins [Re: Anonymous]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Gliderluv: Got the same email response from Heather that you did. Appears they're doing a mass emailling to everyone saying the same thing. However, based on the data Ellen has provided to us, testing the crickets won't tell the story so I emailled poor Heather at ZooMed & quoted from Ellen's 8/17/01 aflatoxin post. Here's a copy of what I sent to Heather:<P>Heather: Thanks for a response but having a can of the crickets tested by a lab will not<BR>produce any positive results regarding aflatoxins. The reason is that "As the cricket grows in the mash or medium and if the toxin is present then the cricket<BR>metabolizes the toxin into thier DNA. Therefore, unless you break down the DNA (which is near impossible), you will not find the toxin. So in other words the Cricket becomes the host for the toxin. Depending on the amount of toxins that the bug has and how many are effected with the toxin is what determines the slow degeneration of the liver, then death. If<BR>it is Aflatoxin B1 then death can occur within 72 hours or less. But the majority is a slow consumption of the toxin which could take 2-3 mo for death to occur with no clinical symtoms except a noticed lack of appetite and a lack of activy level." <P>A toxocologist from Texas A & M as well as Dr. Deerinfield from the Bronx Zoo and the Noble foundation believe the problem lies with the bedding/feed used to raise the crickets as bedding/feed often contain an aflatoxin level. What happens then is the crickets & mealies build up a level that they can handle and become hosts to the aflatoxins. When these crickets/mealies<BR>are then fed to reptiles & other exotics like sugar gliders, these animals then build up a level in their bodies but their bodies are unable to adjust to the levels as the crickets/mealies seem to be able to do & so they sicken & die.<P>What ZooMed needs to do is test the bedding/feed they use in raising the crickets & mealies to determine if aflatoxin levels exist in them. This needs to be done regularly especially during periods when there is either excessive rain factors or drought factors existing. Please consider having aflatoxin testing of the bedding/feed done to determine if any aflatoxin levels exist in the bedding/feed you use. If levels do show up, you need to let us know & advise as to what precautions/change of methods are being implemented to overcome the aflatoxin factor.<P>I look forward to receiving a reply from you with respect to the data just provided at your earliest convenience as I am very concerned about giving any crickets/mealies dead or alive to my exotics at this time.<P>Seems that people from the board emailled ZooMed enough that it pressured them into doing something. As Lucy has just stated:<BR>"Who says that grass roots work doesn't pay off?" I'll be sure to let ewveryone know what response I get to this latest inquiry I sent to ZooMed.<P>Also, THANK YOU ELLEN. If it hadn't been for your 8/17 post here & all the hard work you & Bruce have done from a pathology & toxicology standpoint, I would have just accepted that testing the crickets would have been enough. Now I know better & so does ZooMed. <P>

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#115762 - 08/23/01 09:12 PM Re: Prelimary results of Aflatoxins [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


I got that same response.......I was going to email and tell them it would do no good but was unsure as to how to word it. Looks like you did a great job!! i hope they will listen to you!!!!

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#115763 - 08/24/01 10:45 PM Re: Prelimary results of Aflatoxins [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


I marked my calendar to follow up with Heather in one week's time if I haven't heard from ZooMed.

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#115764 - 08/29/01 11:27 PM Re: Prelimary results of Aflatoxins [Re: ]
Ellen Offline
Owner:Emeritus-Mother Hen

Registered: 08/05/99
Posts: 7603
Loc: Virginia Beach, VA.
It has been over a week since I talked to Heather at Zoo Med. But to let you know as of now I have found NOT ONE farm that sells crickets that are not bedded and fed in corn meal or mash.<BR>I have spoken to as many farms that I could find on the internet and from Pet stores. Not a one uses anything else.<P>I have heard the phrase "hit or miss" or many times I cant stand it. <P>I guess I am ready to take them all on and do not care about the consiquences that I may suffer.<P>I received a link the other day from Pockets about (I think ) bearded dragons and the FAST death rate they are having from Aflatoxin. The one named cricket "farm" threatned them with legal action if they did not retract thier statements. Thank God they did not and the "farm" stopped legeal action. THEY did not have a leg to stand on. They had no positive testing. <P>ERRRRRRR.... Angry YES I am.
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