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#1165 - 12/13/02 10:13 AM Glider's necropsy results
Anonymous
Unregistered


Well, I got Flora's necropsy results back, but two glider deaths later, I don't think I know any more than I did two weeks ago. I'm not going to list everything from the necropsy here but I thought I'd share some of the information I found interesting.

First off A&M determined that Flora died of heart failure. Since my Houston vet thinks it's a little odd that all my gliders would contract heart problems at the same time, the cause of death might as well read: inconclusive.

Interestingly, A&M found some slight hemorrhaging in Flora's brain, which they concluded was caused by her tremors. Fauna never contracted tremors so I'm interested to read her necropsy. I also find it interesting that the Group D Entrercoccus that Daphne tested positive for was not found in Flora.

One of the statements from my Houston vet concerned me. On the "Clinical History" for Flora so wrote. "Evaluated leadbeater's mix owner was makingódetermined that there was too much Phosphorus in diet."

This statement concerned me because no one evaluated the leadbeater's mix. I gave my vet a copy of the BML recipe, but I was never told that the diet contained too much Phosphorus. In my opinion, this statement is misleading. Is it possible that the doctors at A&M read this and wrote off Flora's illness as a "textbook glider death?"

The comments section on Daphne's blood work said, "quantity of sample insufficient to perform test. The chemistry results were calculated from a times three dilution which may falsely decrease calcium." Based on these results, my vet determined that my gliders were calcium deficient. Because the quantity of the sample was "insufficient" and the results were calculated from a times three dilution, is it possible that Daphne was not really calcium deficient and that her tremors were caused by something else?

These are my thoughts for now. My Houston vet had NO suggestions and how to proceed from here, citing that my case was "very frustrating." No sh*&)! She is, however, going to contact my San Antonio vet and look for any correlations in Flora and Fauna's necropsy.

Do you all find some of this information as odd as I do? What are your thoughts?

-Ryan

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#1166 - 12/13/02 11:23 PM Re: Glider's necropsy results [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Ryan: Flora's necropsy results certainly pose a whole new set of questions on what was wrong with her. The slight hemorrhaging found in Flora's brain makes one wonder whether she had some type of a stroke. Convulsions can occur depending on the type of stroke & might be misinterpreted as seizures. Some other symptoms of stroke include
hemipplegia, loss of sensation and reflex changes. If Flora did have some type of stroke, the stress of it on her body could have conceivably caused eventual heart failure.

The other possibility for slight hemorrhaging in the brain could be D/T a head injury but I
would think they would have seen evidence of such while doing the necropsy & most certainly would have commented on it.

The comment made about the leadbeaters mix & too much phosphorus in the diet are strange. While too much phosphorus can impede the uptake and absorption of calcium causing a calcium deficiency wherein tetany symptoms (continuous tonic spasm of muscles) might occur that could be misinterpreted as a seizuring episode, there is no correlation to between phosphorus toxicity and brain hemorrhaging to my knowledge from the research I've just done so phosphorus toxicity just doesn't seem like it fits.

It will be very interesting to see what the results of Fauna's necropsy are & see if there are
any correlations between the two as you 've mentioned in your post.

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#1167 - 12/13/02 11:59 PM Re: Glider's necropsy results [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


RyanB,
There's something about that heartfailure, that rings a big bell in my head, but i can't remember what it was... i have read something somewhere along that affect with my enterococcus, and baytril research..... i believe.

If i remember i will post it.

Tanja

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#1168 - 12/13/02 12:16 PM Re: Glider's necropsy results [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Ok, i went and looked at that one link i gave in my post from the research i did, and it's in the first link quoted here is part of this article:
[Enterococcus] "Accounts for 10,000 urinary tract, 25,000 systemic blood, 40,000 wound, and 1,100 heart valve infections annually in the United States."

I know that a heartvalve infection can lead to heart failure.Here's a link stating the different things that cause heartfailure:http://www.lifeclinic.com/focus/heartfailure/causes.asp
Quote from another site:"Valvular Heart Disease

A condition that occurs when the valves between the chambers of the heart are faulty, either due to birth defect or injury."

As stated in the enterococcus information enterococcus can infect the heartvalves.

Also you state the enterococcus wasn't found in Flora, but she had allready been on antibiotics for a while, so that would stand to reason that maybe the damage was done to the heartvalve, even though the infection cleared up, and therefore no enterococcus could be found ?
This would also explain why several gliders would develop heartfailure at the same time.

edited to add input about calcium levels...

About the calcium reading: i feel if it has been diluted so much it might give a false reading, by the same token we all have learned that any illness in a glider can cause enough stress for the calcium not to be absorbed/ used up too fast, which would give low readings. I have no doubt in my mind that a glider with heartfailure would be stressed to that extreme.

This would be my concerns, i would be discussing with my vet, and maybe even get a second opinion.

Tanja

<small>[ 12-13-2002, 03:00 PM: Message edited by: reyoko69 ]</small>

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#1169 - 12/13/02 02:07 PM Re: Glider's necropsy results [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


RyanB,
I've been following your posts, curious about what the necropsy would reveal. I think Tanja has an excellent point. That being on antibiotics should have cleared up the bactieria, hence no sign of it, but it had already done the damage to the heart valve. Which, might help explain some of the symptoms before she passed on. I'm not real sure of that, but would be a good topic to ask your vet. Something to think about would be to send a copy of the necropsy report to Ellen or Lucy, or see who they prefer, there might be something on there that would tell them something that you might not even glance at. Or their vet might be able to help explain more.
Again, I'm sorry for your loss, and thank you for doing the necropsy, we are learning so much from it!
Chey

<small>[ 12-13-2002, 03:16 PM: Message edited by: Chey ]</small>

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#1170 - 12/13/02 02:40 PM Re: Glider's necropsy results [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Glider Greetings, RyanB <img border="0" alt="wave" title="" src="graemlins/wave.gif" />

Sorry things are still going downhill for you and your furbutts. <img border="0" alt="upset" title="" src="graemlins/upset.gif" />

The technical side of this problem is way over my head; but, I do know from my reading that A&M has an excellent reputation. I agree that it does sound strange; but, I think that if they said your glider died of heart failure, then you can ".....hang your hat....." on that statement.

On a more worldly note, would you mind giving us an idea of what a necropsy costs? I don't think I've ever seen anyone mention a figure.

Thanks and best wishes.

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#1171 - 12/13/02 03:56 PM Re: Glider's necropsy results [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


I would like to make a comment here about the reputation of A&M.

My experience is that we are all human, and though i don't want to discredit A&M here, since i don't feel it's their mistake, i feel that it's often the consumer/customer's obligation to inform themselves, and do reseach.

I have met doctors that i was told have high credentials, only to run into opinonated, less then professional statements, and lack of interest to consider alternate posibilities, as well as lack of care.
I have encountered doctors, god forbid if you mentioned a very good posibility that you feel had been overlooked, or posed an intelligent question, and they acted like "who are you to querstion god"... (dripping with sarcasmn here)

The reason i say this is cause i have experienced bad and good with doctors, with the bad ones nearly costing me my life on one occasion.
As well as a good one that listened to my knowledge about my own body, and together we found the right path,(and strangely enough those were the doctors that weren't hung with 5 stars).

I feel in a case like this all aspects need to be exhausted before making an assumption, that a diet that has been researched as to the nutritional value and been around for quite some time, is at fault.

RyanB, i am very glad you shared the necropsy results with us albeit you also mentioned that you were leaving some things out, which again could skew the picture.
And while my mind is on the facts of your glider's death, my heart does feel your pain of your loss.

I think it is a great idea of Chey if you could send the necropsy reports to Ellen or lucy, and get more professionals involved at looking at the whole picture to better detemine what happened here.

This would also be your cheapest way of getting a second opinion <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> .

One question still remains: have you asked your vet yet on how your gliders possibly contracted the enterococcus infection in the first place ?
This would serve us all in maybe being able to prevent this from happening to other gliders in the community.

Tanja

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#1172 - 12/13/02 05:51 PM Re: Glider's necropsy results [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Hey all-- had a long chat with my San Antonio vet today and we may have pinpointed what went wrong. We're trying some new meds and taking a closer look at the Flora's necropsy and the prelim work done on Fauna. Give me the weekend to chart my progress and gather my thoughts. I don't want to make any announcements and cause another stire before I have all my facts--I know I'm going to need them.

Randy, Flora's necropsy cost $150. No word on Fauna's cost yet but I expect it too be around the same

-Ryan

<small>[ 12-13-2002, 06:53 PM: Message edited by: RyanB ]</small>

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#1173 - 12/13/02 06:03 PM Re: Glider's necropsy results [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


I know what you are going through Ryan. When Rosie died, my vet did a necropsy, sent off the tissue, and all that jazz. Well, the best he could come up with was that she must have died from a lack of calcium, due to having joeys in her pouch. I know for a fact that that is a bunch of bunk. I have discussed her necropsy with Dr. Ross (as well as Ellen, Lucy, Bourbon, and a few others on here) several times, and we concluded that there was no weay in HADES that her death was caused by calcium deficiency. There was too much other stuff found in her necropsy for her death to have been caused by something as simple as calcium deficiency. She also had brain hemmoraging, some liver problems, and a few other things that didn't add up. I think my vet was searching for a simple way to say "We screwed up, and can't think of a better excuse."

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#1174 - 12/13/02 06:19 PM Re: Glider's necropsy results [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Glider Greetings To The Glider Community <img border="0" alt="wave" title="" src="graemlins/wave.gif" />

I would like to propose that, those who can, send a few bucks to Ryan to help with his vet expenses. College students are notoriously poor(I've been there) and we've all learned/will learn a lot from Ryan's misfortune that may be valuable to each of us, individually, in the future. I know that this is a tough time of year to find a few extra dollars; but, even if you can only spare five bucks, fifty of us could send Ryan a nice Christmas present. Thanks.

Ryan: I've written a check, already. Not much; but, hope that it will help a little. Please let us know how we can get our help to you? If you don't want to publish your personal address, maybe you can offer your vets address and we can send money directly to him?? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

<small>[ 12-14-2002, 12:29 AM: Message edited by: RANDY ]</small>

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#1176 - 12/13/02 07:17 PM Re: Glider's necropsy results [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


I don't have much to spare but I can certainly spare a buck or two for the good of the glider. I think I would like to help Ryan - it's self-nourishing to be unselfish and I could use the lift. <img border="0" alt="help" title="" src="graemlins/help.gif" /> It's a very difficult holiday season for me this year for personal reasons.

Please email me with the info to help Ryan with his costs - I hope I never need personally use the knowledge we gain from the necropsies for my babies but I would love to help others that may.

Merry Christmas to all. <img border="0" alt="heart" title="" src="graemlins/heartpump.gif" />

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#1177 - 12/13/02 08:38 PM Re: Glider's necropsy results [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


I too would like to help ryan, and could probably spare a few bucks....it may not be much but like Randy said if we can get several of us together to donate it might help out.

Can I just say that I LOVE this board. Everyone is so helpful and we always band together.

Ryan - I know that you are going through some rough times, and I'm sure that having no concrete answers makes it that much harder, but just know that you are part of a loving family here at CG and that many of us will do whatever we can to help.

Courtney & Zoey <img border="0" alt="glider" title="" src="graemlins/littleglider.gif" /> <img border="0" alt="heart" title="" src="graemlins/heartpump.gif" />

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#1178 - 12/13/02 08:48 PM Re: Glider's necropsy results [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Same here, i'm waiting for the info to be either posted or e-mailed.

Tanja

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#1179 - 12/13/02 10:44 PM Re: Glider's necropsy results [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Wow! I'm overcome by everyone's generosity. Daphne, Scooby, and Shaggy thank you. Luckily, Santa arrived a little early this year and helped me with Flora's necropsy, but the initial visit to the vet cost me a whopping total of $558. I'm not revealing the cost to evoke sympathy I just want to reiterate how expensive these little babies can cost. But you know what? I'd spend that much again in a heartbeat if there was hope of saving their lives

My Houston vet has still not sent me the second page of Flora's necropsy, but once it's in, I'll be sure to post the info. If these new meds work out, I'll be able to reveal the illness. If they don't work, I'll still reveal my hunch and we can all brainstorm again.

Thanks again everyone.

-Ryan

P.S. My San Antonio vet called A&M and asked if Fauna's brain was damaged in any way. It was intact so Flora's brain hemorrhaging was most likely a result of her tremors.

<small>[ 12-15-2002, 11:03 PM: Message edited by: Lucy ]</small>

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#1180 - 12/15/02 03:26 PM Re: Glider's necropsy results [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


RyanB,

How are your gliders ?
I'm wondering if the change in meds was successfull.

Please update us soon.

Tanja

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#1181 - 12/15/02 10:05 PM Re: Glider's necropsy results [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Ryan, I did take out your name and address out of your last post. We really believe the risks outweigh the benefits -- I hope you'll be okay with just giving it out to people you want to give it out to individually.

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#1182 - 12/15/02 10:57 PM Re: Glider's necropsy results [Re: Anonymous]
SugarBaby22 Offline
Serious Glideritis

Registered: 07/18/02
Posts: 5697
Loc: Phoenix, AZ
<img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> I'm so sorry Ryan. I have to admit, at first I was angered by some of your posts, thinking that they were just going to start trouble. But I've really changed my mind, I was wrong and I am so sorry for your loss. You and your gliders are in my prayers!!! <img border="0" alt="heart" title="" src="graemlins/heartpump.gif" /> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> ? I'd spend that much again in a heartbeat if there was hope of saving their lives </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><img border="0" alt="clap" title="" src="graemlins/yelclap.gif" /> <img border="0" alt="heart" title="" src="graemlins/heartpump.gif" /> <img border="0" alt="heart" title="" src="graemlins/heartpump.gif" /> <img border="0" alt="heart" title="" src="graemlins/heartpump.gif" />
_________________________
Linda

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#1183 - 12/16/02 12:30 AM Re: Glider's necropsy results [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Sugarbaby, I'm sorry my posts angered you; I'm trying to solicit information, not anger. I would not advise reading my post tomorrow because you'll probably become quite angry again.

I hope everyone keeps and open mind regarding my post tomorrow. Before we start a thread of angry responses, please look at the data I've collected and base your opinion on the facts. As many of you have so eloquently written in your messages, We HAVE come along way in glider care---we just haven't come far enough.

Ryan, still gathering his facts to present to you all tomorrow.

<small>[ 12-16-2002, 01:37 AM: Message edited by: RyanB ]</small>

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#1184 - 12/16/02 12:42 AM Re: Glider's necropsy results [Re: ]
SugarBaby22 Offline
Serious Glideritis

Registered: 07/18/02
Posts: 5697
Loc: Phoenix, AZ
Ryan <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> ,
I am looking forward to reading your posts. I find them very interesting and have opened up my mind about them, afterall, I want what is best for my gliders. I only got upset because I have been told over and over, BML is the only good diet. If it's not, then I want to know what is. They deserve the best, and only the best. If you can help us find something better, please do so! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> <img border="0" alt="wave" title="" src="graemlins/wave.gif" /> Have a good night!
_________________________
Linda

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