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#1166500 - 08/26/11 02:32 PM Platinum to Platinum breeding-Question for breeder
Marsupial_Mayhem Offline
Glider Slave

Registered: 07/24/04
Posts: 1524
Loc: Lake Havasu City, AZ
To my fellow experienced breeders.

I have someone interested in my Platinum female to breed to a Platinum male. I honestly have a hard time doing this for fear of introducing genetic defects in the offspring.

What do the rest of you say?
_________________________
Danielle G.
USDA Breeder

www.Mylittlesugarglider.com

Slave to Sugar Gliders since 1997



:leu: = Abercrombie

:wfb: = Verbena :rtmo: = Saukura :cream: = Merry Christmas :plat: = Willie Wonka :plat: = Magdalena


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#1166509 - 08/26/11 03:02 PM Re: Platinum to Platinum breeding-Question for breeder [Re: Marsupial_Mayhem]
hwh4ev Offline
Glider Addict

Registered: 12/03/08
Posts: 2836
Loc: roseville, mi
if the lines are clean of each other i would imagine there would be no problem. breeders breed mo to mo, leu to 100% leu het and so on with no problems.

regards,
nancy in detroit
_________________________
regards,
nancy in roseville (formerly in detroit)

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#1166571 - 08/26/11 06:04 PM Re: Platinum to Platinum breeding-Question for breeder [Re: Marsupial_Mayhem]
Suggiegramma Offline
Glider Slave

Registered: 01/08/08
Posts: 1520
Loc: St. Charles, Missouri
As long as the COI is low, there should be no problem.
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#1166577 - 08/26/11 07:08 PM Re: Platinum to Platinum breeding-Question for breeder [Re: Suggiegramma]
Adri Offline
Glider Guardian

Registered: 08/08/08
Posts: 956
Loc: Homestead, FL
Originally Posted By: Suggiegramma
As long as the COI is low, there should be no problem.


I also agree! smile But with a Plat to Plat breeding they will not only produce plats if that is the objective. If the Plats are also leu hets the out come will still be 50/50 so unless there is another reason for this pairing it would be very costly and the end result would be the same.
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Mother of 2
Adrian, Sofie
Slave to many glidin' gliders



www.sugarsensation.com

Within the heart of every stray lies the singular desire to be loved.

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#1166578 - 08/26/11 07:11 PM Re: Platinum to Platinum breeding-Question for breeder [Re: Marsupial_Mayhem]
Laurens_Babies Offline
Glider Addict

Registered: 03/04/07
Posts: 3570
Loc: Kansas City, MO
I've never thought about this but wouldn't we have similar issues as leu to leu because so many of the plat lines are heavy in leu as well? If its not ok for leu to leu why would it be for plat to plat? I really haven't given this topic much thought just food for thought.
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~Lauren

Lauren's Animal Kingdom
*Website is down temporarily should be back up by November!*

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#1166579 - 08/26/11 07:16 PM Re: Platinum to Platinum breeding-Question for breeder [Re: Laurens_Babies]
Adri Offline
Glider Guardian

Registered: 08/08/08
Posts: 956
Loc: Homestead, FL
Lauren though the community sees breeding a leu to a 100% leu het ok in essence it is no different than breeding leu to leu genetically the only difference is coat color. Breeding out only occurs when we pair a lue to a 100% leu het that is out of a leu and a non leu/leu het parent. Breeding a plat to a leu is basically a leu/leu breeding because all plat is is a mutated leu gene. I hope this makes sense.
_________________________
Adri

Mother of 2
Adrian, Sofie
Slave to many glidin' gliders



www.sugarsensation.com

Within the heart of every stray lies the singular desire to be loved.

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#1166591 - 08/26/11 08:02 PM Re: Platinum to Platinum breeding-Question for breeder [Re: Marsupial_Mayhem]
Laurens_Babies Offline
Glider Addict

Registered: 03/04/07
Posts: 3570
Loc: Kansas City, MO
I get that Adri but I'm one of those people that doesn't agree to leu to 100% either so I guess that is why I feel the way I do about plat to plat.
_________________________
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Lauren's Animal Kingdom
*Website is down temporarily should be back up by November!*

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#1166637 - 08/26/11 10:19 PM Re: Platinum to Platinum breeding-Question for breeder [Re: Marsupial_Mayhem]
meri Offline
Glider Lover

Registered: 04/09/10
Posts: 504
Loc: nc, usa
clap Thank you, Adri, so well put! This was the conclusion I came to as well, but then genetics is so full of exceptions to the rules...

There has been some additional concern brought up by Gliderguyva's wife in the past. She is a veterinarian and before that did research with genetics(?) I'm sorry, I know I am botching exactly what she did. She said that likely the leu gene did carry genetic defects moreso than a grey or wf simply because it is not found in the wild and that they did in fact have a chance of being carried right on the color gene and that it may not be noticed until several generations of leu/leu because it could be a progressive gene (most traits are not single genes that work nicely in a punnett square). My question, and it was never answered, was if those defects (if there turns out to be any) could be bred out in one generation by simply crossing to a non-leu even if, worst case scenario, it was a progressive gene that did not get noticed until several generations of leu/leu breeding.

Regardless, by those principals, plats are not found in the wild either, so all of this would presumably hold true for them as well.

It is so hard. We are all amatures, really (including me; I know its going to be humbling when I hear what parts I botched up in my attempted paraphrase of this professional's prior input), and we are deciding the genetic future of these animals. In nature there is an intricate system that decides it and does it beautifully. There is no scientist that has ever existed that fully understands that system; it is so complex, we cannot pretend we do. When it comes to genetics there are so many layers; if we are honest we are all working with a very small piece of the puzzle. We all realize how important this is, and often we take a very strong stand because of this.

I think it is really important that we embrace our amateurism. Get as much info as we can, do the absolute best we can for our animals (and, yes, there are reasons that breeding leu/leu or plat/plat could be beneficial) and view others who have made alternate decisions as amateurs like us also trying the best with the little info they have to do the best for their babies.

This thread has been a great start at that; getting to the information and not getting sidetracked with opinions. Thank you, everyone, for such a nutritious thread!
_________________________
wave Meri & :grey: :leu:

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#1166703 - 08/27/11 04:12 AM Re: Platinum to Platinum breeding-Question for breeder [Re: Marsupial_Mayhem]
JillMarie Offline
Serious Glideritis

Registered: 01/03/09
Posts: 7748
Loc: New Jersey
Originally Posted By: Meri
I think it is really important that we embrace our amateurism. Get as much info as we can, do the absolute best we can for our animals


Great words! Now lets apply that to every aspect of glider care.

As for genetics, I know very little, what I hear is this thread is blah blah leu het blah het blah lue lue het plat blah. roflmao

One thing I do know, think I know anyway, someone correct me please, that there could be a genetic defect, but no signs show, but then a few generations down it could pop up. So you could be "breeding out" to clear up the lines, but generations out, someone could be born and have a defect caused by a gene that was carried in the line, but no one was aware of as no signs indicated it. I have heard the term "throwback" used to indicate this.



Edited by JillMarie (08/27/11 04:24 AM)
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#1166731 - 08/27/11 08:54 AM Re: Platinum to Platinum breeding-Question for breeder [Re: Marsupial_Mayhem]
Chris_R Offline
Glider Explorer

Registered: 12/30/08
Posts: 310
Loc: Northwest Missouri
One of the major problems of breeding color to its own color is you end up bottlenecking that branch of the line, then you are forced to breed out to non color for a few generations as you just cant put it back in and get a decent COI % (realising that the lower the COI the lower the chance of passing on any genetic defects)... So great for the original breeder as they are the ones producing the color and getting the full money for said color, but bad bad for anyone that buys and wants to continue as its darn near impossible to do so... which IMHO just shows greed for that orginal breeder who paired the colors up and also shows that orginal breeder to not be truely "for the good of the glider"...

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#1166783 - 08/27/11 12:46 PM Re: Platinum to Platinum breeding-Question for breeder [Re: Marsupial_Mayhem]
GliderNursery Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 09/14/07
Posts: 20049
Loc: North Central Ohio
I agree that although genetically it may be ok, I wouldn't recommend it for the reasons Chris mentioned above. There are not that many lines of platinum gliders out there. By putting them together will minimize the gene pool.

I personally would stand against it for the same reasons I do with leu to leu breeding. By making this type of practice "acceptable" it will become more of a common practice. When things become such a common practice, it seems that the important details get forgotton, such as the inbreeding coefficient and the genetic relationship between the pairing.

As Adri stated, this would be a costly venture for the buyer with the offspring outcome being the same if he/she didn't pair a plat to a plat.

The platinum lines are not (at this point) in the mess that the leu lines are/were in. Please don't start down that slippery path. Let's try to breed as responsibly as we can with the knowledge that we do have.

I'm so glad that you asked this question! Brings a great conversation. smile
_________________________
Shelly

Don't sacrifice quality information for convenient information.


Glider Nursery

Sugar Glider Foundation



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#1166819 - 08/27/11 02:57 PM Re: Platinum to Platinum breeding-Question for breeder [Re: Marsupial_Mayhem]
meri Offline
Glider Lover

Registered: 04/09/10
Posts: 504
Loc: nc, usa
JillMarie, this is really beyond the little bit of genetics education I have; so I spent some time and dug up the real quote so that you could read her words instead of my translation:

She wrote some other things on a thread and then came to this (gliderguyva's wife):
"The real question is this - is the Leu gene linked to other "bad" genes. We just don't know. But we must remember it is a "bad" gene if trying to survive in the wild. With outbreeding the hope is that any "bad" genes potentially linked to the original leu will be selected out leaving only the leu trait alone - and then it would be safe to breed those white descendants. How many generations would that take? I don't know - and I don't think anyone can answer that question - because we don't know the answer to the fundamental question of does this color variant gene have other bad things associated with it?

Now as far as breeding close relatives - brother/sister, etc. regardless of color you are increasing the risk of pairing previously unexpressed bad genes that were recessive. Close relatives by definition have similar genetic material and would possibly carry similar recessive genes. Are all recessive genes bad - not necessarily. But nature has a way of making sure the "fittess" survive so those genes expressed by natural breeding through the test of time have shown to cause the greatest survival of the species.

The best examples of responsible breeding would be to look at the livestock industry where this has been done for hundreds of years. Many dog breeders do breed relatives in order to obtain certain desirable breed characteristics - is this wrong? Not if those recessive traits are not linked to a gene that can cause unthriftiness of the species. Many "bad" health issues have been bred out of certain breeds like the drastic decrease in the incidence of hip dysplasia in large breed dogs. Responsible breeders have spent the past 20 years certifying their dogs hips as phenotypically normal and only breeding those dogs (even if related) to other dogs with phenotypically good hips. Does this mean the dog is 100% clear of carrying the gene - no, we can't know that until we have the ability to sequence the genome of every parent, just not possible yet.

One thing I have to say to you all is - WOW! Kudo's to you for asking these questions now - before you start to see bad genetic phenotypes associated with breeding. Unlike the golden retriever or boxer world where the breeding occured and then they had to deal with trying to rid the breed of the bad genes associated with the good traits they were breeding for. We will always have genetic mutation and that can and often is a good thing that contributes to the survival of a species - but sometimes nature messes up and the passing on of traits is dictated by survivability. We as humans sometimes interfere with the natural process. Good luck to everyone and best wishes for a wonderful, healthy joey 2009."

I then PMed her to ask if a progressive dominant deleterious (ie bad) gene could be attached to color. She said it was possible (I know as a rule it is always possible, that any of our gliders could carry a gene like this, but I wanted to make sure it was possible for it to be attached to color). We really have already seen that leu to leu can be safely bred together without any apearant dominant defects; its been done. But if it was a progressive gene it would take several generations of leu/leu crosses to finally notice the problem. For instance, maybe it slightly affects liver function, but only after several generations would it be bad enough that we would see it in young animals.

Now, do not panic. ANY of our gliders could carry a gene like this at any time and it have nothing to do with color, its only that she had said that "bad" genes were more likely to be attached to a recessive color, so the chances go up; I would guess just slightly. This is a very worst case scenario, I'll go ahead and say that it seems unlikely, but we just need to be informed that it is a possibility. I do not know if a worst case scenario like this could be remedied in one generation by simply breeding to a grey or wf. If it would, then there is not a problem. But I really don't know.

One thing I want to remind us all; and I think this is the crucial point for the long term genetic health of our captive glider population; is that if we ever do find a defect; we must stop breeding all animals that are producing it or exhibiting it immediately. I think we all agree on that, but I think it can't be stated too often. I wish we had a fund for it; that anyone who came forward finding a genetic defect in THEIR OWN ANIMALS could get reimbursed for those animals by the community when they neutered and anyone who had babies form that pairing cold get the same reimbursement for neutering theirs and down as many generations as had been bred so far. Hopefully that would encourage honesty and that honesty would greatly benefit all of our animals in the future.

And I have a question. Are all of the silverbelle lines from leus? I'm sorry that I do not know, but I thought only Haley was from leu lines?

_________________________
wave Meri & :grey: :leu:

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#1168565 - 09/06/11 11:02 PM Re: Platinum to Platinum breeding-Question for breeder [Re: meri]
GliderNursery Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 09/14/07
Posts: 20049
Loc: North Central Ohio
Originally Posted By: meri
We really have already seen that leu to leu can be safely bred together without any aparant dominant defects; its been done. But if it was a progressive gene it would take several generations of leu/leu crosses to finally notice the problem. For instance, maybe it slightly affects liver function, but only after several generations would it be bad enough that we would see it in young animals.

If this is such a possibility, and would take several generations to become evident, why even do it? (Not insinuating that you do, just making conversation.) Especially when we know how to reproduce the desired color, and knowing that 2 leus are not required to do so. It would only be to guarantee that 100% of the offspring would be leu, and that's just not necessary. I would highly encourage anyone wishing to breed for color to NOT use these types of breeding practices. The idea of breeding is to better the species. If pairing leu/leu together could result in genetic defects several generations later, we would be destroying the breed (color).

And I have a question. Are all of the silverbelle lines from leus? I'm sorry that I do not know, but I thought only Haley was from leu lines?

Silverbelle has no known leu in her lines. She is the original platinum from the FFR line. Her parents, Fred & Wilma, were both classic grey with no listed lineage.

Haley is from leu lines. Her grandfather, Sammie, was a leu.


_________________________
Shelly

Don't sacrifice quality information for convenient information.


Glider Nursery

Sugar Glider Foundation



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#1168584 - 09/06/11 11:26 PM Re: Platinum to Platinum breeding-Question for breeder [Re: Marsupial_Mayhem]
Marsupial_Mayhem Offline
Glider Slave

Registered: 07/24/04
Posts: 1524
Loc: Lake Havasu City, AZ
Wow. I came back to this and found a lot of information and some great opinions, both pros and con.

I guess for me, I am still not feeling "right" about allowing someone to breed one of my Platinums to another Platinum. It's my own nagging worry that in some way, I would contribute to a defect along the way. I have explained this to the person wanting to do the breeding and she is not at all upset with me on my decision.

I'm sure the person could get another to sell to her, but as for me, I am not going to do this.

Thanks for all the great answers to my question.


Edited by Marsupial_Mayhem (09/06/11 11:35 PM)
_________________________
Danielle G.
USDA Breeder

www.Mylittlesugarglider.com

Slave to Sugar Gliders since 1997



:leu: = Abercrombie

:wfb: = Verbena :rtmo: = Saukura :cream: = Merry Christmas :plat: = Willie Wonka :plat: = Magdalena


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#1168588 - 09/06/11 11:29 PM Re: Platinum to Platinum breeding-Question for breeder [Re: Marsupial_Mayhem]
Marsupial_Mayhem Offline
Glider Slave

Registered: 07/24/04
Posts: 1524
Loc: Lake Havasu City, AZ
Actually Meri, my Jemmy came from Anita Totty. He is a 100% proven het, the father of 2 Platinums himself now. One female with him is from Silverbelle lines, the other that just had a Platinum joey is from Haley. Jemmy's father is Platinum and he has no leu in his lines at all. I believe his background is Silverbelle. I do have some Platinums with Haley in the line and some mixed Haley and Silverbelle.
_________________________
Danielle G.
USDA Breeder

www.Mylittlesugarglider.com

Slave to Sugar Gliders since 1997



:leu: = Abercrombie

:wfb: = Verbena :rtmo: = Saukura :cream: = Merry Christmas :plat: = Willie Wonka :plat: = Magdalena


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