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#1188633 - 11/06/11 08:08 AM Possible genetic metabolic/malabsorbtion disorder?
Jackie_Chans_Mom Offline
Glider Addict

Registered: 05/01/07
Posts: 2511
Loc: Texas
Though it still pains me to talk of it, I am going to share a few stories with you. I have an issue going on in my home, and a recent inquiry on the boards has convinced me that I am not alone in the issues that we are facing.

I recently asked if anyone had any evidence of any mal-absorbtion disorders in their gliders (other than cancer). I am suspecting that this is the case in two of my gliders Ė possibly a third.

Here are the details as best as I can remember. Because I don't know what is relevant and what is not, I'm putting down everything I can remember. This is LOOOONG. I apologize.



Dumplin Ė OOP 10/24/09
Parents: Morsel & Kibble


Dot Com & Encore Ė OOP 02/07/10
Parents: Morsel & Kibble


All of these gliders were born in my home and handled by me from day one.

All of these gliders have the same parents. Morsel and Kibble had 6 joeys total before Morsel was neutered:
Smidgen (WF M) & Dollop (WF F)
Drizzle (Mosaic F) & Dumplin (WF F)
Dot com (Gray F) & Encore (Leu F)

When Dot and Encore were 6 weeks OOP, Kibble was killed in an accident. They transitioned very easily to eating well with the family, and I supplemented them both once daily for one week with joey BML.

Dumplinís development was unremarkable. She developed normally and I was never given cause for concern. There were two things to note with her: her nails grew very quickly and were very, very thin and soft. I could bend them. Cutting them was much like cutting paper. They were very strange. Also, she was pretty small Ė weighing 65 grams at her largest.

Dot was always very small. She continued to grow, but she was 7 grams when she came OOP. I didnít worry too much about it because, even though everyone told me it was very small, ALL of Kibble and Tid-bitís joeys were 7-10 grams the day they were OOP. At the time of Kibbleís death, (at 6 weeks OOP), Dot weighed only 20 grams. Her twin, Encore, was 39 grams at that time. They were both small, but Dot way much more so.

Nonetheless, Dot and Encore both developed normally and had a clean bill of health upon their first wellness exam (May of 2010). Neither of them ever gained a lot of weight, though. They played well, ate well, moved well. They were beautiful little babies Ė little being the operative word.

Dot remained very small. Encore grew much more than Dot, but today she weighs only 52 grams. I used to show dot to people and comment that she still looks like a joey.


In March of 2011, I noticed that Dumplin was having a difficult time getting around in the cage. I thought that it was because I had been neglectful in doing nails on time. So, I clipped her nails and didnít think much more about it. I left for the RRRoundup. I returned two days later and found that she could hardly climb at all and was unable to grip anything. Dot was showing signs of this as well. So, I pulled them from the colony and put them both in a hospital cage in my bedroom where I could keep an eye on them.

They went to the vet in Amarillo and got started on antibiotics (amoxi) until I could get them to Tulsa the next weekend.

That week I watched them closely and was horrified to realize that Dumplin was much worse off than I thought. The colony they had lived in had 5 WF gliders in it Ė 4 of which were girls and one of which looks identical to Dumplin (I can only tell them apart by personality). I believe now that the glider I THOUGHT I was seeing eating and playing as Dumplin and Tid Bit was always just Tid-Bit. So, I believe that I missed Dumplinís decline. frown

Dumplin was unable to grip anything with either hand. She also had a very odd gait Ė her legs were turned out at the hips and her arms were turned out at the shoulders. She waddled and was unable to get her belly off the ground.

Dot was able to climb and grip, but it was very slow going. She did get in the wheel every night and go for a stroll. I never saw her run.

Neither girl ate very well. I suspected that they had metabolic bone disease from either an infection or from being chased away from the food by their daddy who is very food aggressive.

We went to see Dr. Walsh. We decided to do bloodwork on Dot and x-rays on Dumplin and use those to make a diagnosis. They also had a group fecal and urinalysis.

Bloodwork came back very strange. Calcium was very low, as was Magnesium and a few other minerals (canít remember which) and then there were things that were normal.

Nothing turned up on fecal float or smear. We collected more poop at the vet office which I took to the lab for centrifuge testing and SNAP test and still both were negative.

Urinalysis was also normal.
(Continued in next post)
_________________________
~~ Val B ~~ 806-803-0318
Daily giving the abused, unloved, unwanted and neglected SOMETHING TO BELIEVE IN

PLEASE COMPLETE YOUR SUGAR GROUP SURVEYS!!!!!!!!!!!!

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#1188636 - 11/06/11 08:11 AM Re: Possible genetic metabolic/malabsorbtion disorder? [Re: Jackie_Chans_Mom]
Jackie_Chans_Mom Offline
Glider Addict

Registered: 05/01/07
Posts: 2511
Loc: Texas
X-rays were very telling. They revealed very poor bone density and curved long bones!


OK, so I had a diagnosis. I have treated HLP here 15+ times successfully. 3 of those gliders were so advanced in their Metabolic Bone Disease that they were unable to use ANY leg appropriately. So, I felt confident.

On the date of this vet visit, Dot weighed 42 grams and Dumplin weighed 63 grams.

So, I was encouraged that these girls would get better. We decided to treat with a few days of Panacur just to be safe. We also treated with Clavamox, a shot of convenia to each girl and liquid calcium supplements. The thinking was that there might be an underlying infection contributing to the metabolic bone disease.

I began feeding the girls a pureed diet because they would not eat well. They ate this much better. I was giving them the extra calcium and using critical care in their food.

I noticed no change in their mobility, but both girls did have increased (slightly) appetites.

For 6 weeks we kept this up, but I was not seeing much difference. We returned to the vet on May 13, 2011 for follow up x-rays. The x-rays did not show much improvement. There was SLIGHT improvement in that the joints/ends of the bones were more dense now. WTH? Most gliders that I have treated were much improved after just a few weeks. These girls were not responding to treatment.

I was quite despondent at the time. We discussed euthanasia and I just could not do it. Dr. Walsh said that there was SOME improvement, so letís try calcium injections AND oral calcium supplements and see how that works.
So, that is what we did.

The next 3 months are a blurry mess for me due to a number of personal tragedies, a significant lupus flare up, some issues at work, issues with my son and a large number of animal emergencies (I had 6 emergency vet visits in 7 weeks). I take full responsibility for not putting two and two together before this point. But, upon the death of another of my gliders, I had one of those ďAh-haĒ moments that made me think that this might be a malabsorbtion problem.

During this 3 months, Dot had declined. She was no longer climbing at all and rarely got in the wheel. They still did not eat great, but they would eat soft solid foods now (veggies and fruits). Dumplin had lost weight. They were happy girls who loved to snuggle in my bra and LOVED, LOVED, LOVED yogurt drops. They both came running (as best they could) each morning for their yogurt drops and they would chirp and chirp for them.

At the same time as the ďah-haĒ moment, Dot began straining to poop. So, we returned to Tulsa again on August 20. I was concerned that she was impacted, and I know too well how very poor the prognosis is if a glider is impacted. However, while Dr. Walsh was examining her, she pooped. It was a very tiny poop, but it was poop Ė three times. So, he said she was not impacted, but he could tell that she was full of poop and it didnít feel like she had good motility. We talked about the malabsorbtion theory and about possible dismotility in the digestive system. Again, we discussed euthanasia.

I donít know why I decided not to euthanize except they were active and happy. They just were not able to live WELL. But, I had hope. Dr. Walsh is always great about giving hope and reminding me of all the ďhopelessĒ cases in my home that are thriving now. Dr. Walsh felt that we could make progress and he said he was going to do some research on things that might help improve their gut motility and then encouraged me to continue mixing the critical care into their food. We also discussed some other enzymes that might help. They were given calcium EDTA shots and we also decided that I would feed them pumpkin regularly and utilize a bit of mineral oil to get their bowels moving a bit.

The mineral oil resulted in massive bowel movements from both girls and they both started eating much better. I thought we were on the right track finally!!! By Labor Day (2 weeks later) the girls were eating almost full servings of their food. Previously, they did not eat one full serving between the two of them, so this was a great improvement.

On Saturday, Sept. 10 (three weeks after vet visit), I got up in the morning and found Dumplin cold and seizing. Before I could unload my emergency kit, she passed away. I could feel what I thought was a mass in her stomach.

I took her in for a necropsy and histopathology on Monday.

Monday night, Dot Com cleaned her plate AND ate 2 yogies Tuesday morning.

Four days after Dumplinís death, on Wednesday, Sept. 14, Dot Com passed away. Again, her stomach felt like there was a mass in it.

I was just devastated and felt like such a failure. I took Dumplin in for necropsy and histopathology as well and asked for a different pathologist to perform her testing (different from the pathologist that did Dumplinís). I did this so I could compare what they found.

Here are excerpts from Dumplinís necropsy:
Dumplin weighed 50 grams upon her death.

Quote:
Digestive System:
The large intestine is quite distended with inspissated fecal material. The distention extends the entire
length of the colon, proximally to the cecum. The stomach contains fluid grumous material and the
gastric wall is reddened. The small intestine is empty.

Quote:
Musculoskeletal System:
There is mild curvature of the femurs and humeruses. The mid shaft of these long bones are thickened.
The radius/ulnas and tibias are softened and can be bent to an acute angle without fracturing.

Quote:
Long Bones (findings similar in all) - The cortex is quite thickened but porous with intra spicular space.
The bone consists of osteoid but reduced mineralization is present


Quote:
The histologic findings are interpreted to represent a metabolic bone disease resulting in reduced bone
density. This could be due to dysplastic bone formation or bony resorption. A metabolic disease or
nutritional defect is considered most likely


These are excerpts from Dot Comís reports:
Dot weighed 39 grams at the time of her death.

Quote:
Digestive System: Diffusely the large intestine is moderately distended with pasty fecal material. The
small intestine is dilated with gas.


Quote:
Musculoskeletal System: The long bones of the limbs are pliable and curved with an increase in
thickness of the cortex.


Quote:
Comment:
The diffuse intestinal dilatation is presumed to be the result of an impaction and is likely the immediate
cause of death of this animal. The long bone pathology is presumed to be the result of a metabolic bone
disease although given the age of the animal a congenital factor cannot be excluded.


****************************************
Why did these girls not respond to treatment? What caused them to be unable to absorb nutrients from their food?

It is too late for these two, but not for others. When I asked on the boards about malabsorbtion disorders, I had a few people contact me. I hope they will learn from my loss and gain knowledge that I did not. There has to be an answer for these babies.

Looking back, there are things I would do differently and other tests I would have run. I just didn't put it together fast enough for these two girls.

As an aside, during this time, Dollop (also born to Morsel and Kibble) was attacked by the colony and sustained a very large wound Ė so large that infection set in and she went septic despite two convenia shots, oral antibiotics, a topical antibiotic and QuickDerm. She passed away on August 14. Cause of death on her necropsy was sepsis. Her wound was very large and very deep, but I wonder if she just had no immune defenses to fight against infection. With all that she was given, infection should not have been the cause of her death. I just include this in case it becomes relevant later on.

Dollop was not tiny. LOL. She weighed 115 grams upon her death.

*******************************************
Recently, Encore began to move irregularly and to have poor grip on her front left hand. My heart dropped. I took her in and Dr. Walsh found a fracture of her arm near the shoulder. Her bone density was slightly poor, but nothing like Dumplinís. So, for right now, I am treating her like it is a fracture, but I am still concerned. She is small (52 grams) and does not climb well at all.


With the decreased bone density, will she heal well? Prior to this, she still ran in the wheel and played with toys and ate very well, but I have pulled her from the colony and have her in a hospital cage in my bedroom now.
I recently began adding some different enzymes to her food. I can't say that this is what is making the difference, but after 7 days with them, she is moving more "normally" in that arm (she no longer drags it behind her), she is having excellent bowel movements, she is attempting to jump (but is in a hospital cage set up for broken bone, so not much to jump to) and last night I gave her a wheel and she RAN in it. Not walking, but running. smile
She has also started grooming her entire body again and she has not lost any weight.
She does still have the turned out shoulders and hips, but I feel better that she is making some progress. I'm keeping her covered in prayer and kisses and believing the best for her.

When she returns for a follow up visit, she will undergo some thyroid/parathyroid testing.

Morsel and Kibble had 6 babies. 3 of them are now deceased. 4 of them (all female) have shown difficulty healing and/or poor bone density. 3 of them were/are very tiny.

In case weight does play a part, here are the other two babiesí weights:
Drizzle: 76 grams
Smidgen: 127 grams

********************************************
Morsel also had 4 babies with Tid-bit.
None of these babies have shown any signs of illness. ONE of those babies (CASH) went to live with Roya and was mated to Moxy and Mojo. They had several babies that Roya sold or gave away. To be honest, I donít yet know how many babies or where they are (except one of them). Last year, Cash, Mojo and Moxy came back to live with me with two of their sons (Gotham & Gable). They then had 6 more joeys before Cash was neutered (Pogo, Vittles, Scraps, Spendy, Gimme and Gotcha). All of these gliders are still in my home. All males are neutered. All will be staying here.


Edited by Jackie_Chans_Mom (11/06/11 08:14 AM)
_________________________
~~ Val B ~~ 806-803-0318
Daily giving the abused, unloved, unwanted and neglected SOMETHING TO BELIEVE IN

PLEASE COMPLETE YOUR SUGAR GROUP SURVEYS!!!!!!!!!!!!

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#1188670 - 11/06/11 10:08 AM Re: Possible genetic metabolic/malabsorbtion disorder? [Re: Jackie_Chans_Mom]
tjlong Offline
Glider Slave

Registered: 09/25/09
Posts: 1710
Loc: Washington
Oh Val, thank you for sharing your story. I am sure it will help others to have the info here to read. I am so sorry for your losses. hug2

My boy who had a low ionized calcium level is still on calcium. When the 30 day period is over I will discontinue calcium and re-test after an additional 30 days. His cousin was tested the same weekend we found the low calcium. The cousin's level was normal. We had his twin tested. He has normal calcium levels! His father and mother's brother had blood drawn yesterday. I should have results on them later this week. So far, it is looking like the original test was either inaccurate because it was done in a vet office and not sent to a lab, or it could be just this little guy is an isolated issue. I will post results when I get them.

In the mean time, I am grateful that my boy is getting better and so far his relatives are testing normal. I am starting to feel my gliders are definitely not suffering from the same thing your babies have.
_________________________
Regards,
Tracy
(425) 789-7753
Acres of Sugar

:rtmo: Slave to Several Adorable Gliders :wfb:
~~~~~ :cream: :grey: :leu: :bb: ~~~~~
Sugar Glider Genetic Project





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#1188705 - 11/06/11 12:59 PM Re: Possible genetic metabolic/malabsorbtion disorder? [Re: Jackie_Chans_Mom]
SugarBattyPatty Offline
Glider Guardian

Registered: 09/27/11
Posts: 1094
Loc: Brooksville, Florida
Val, I am so very sorry to hear of you troubles. I know less than nothing about these glider issues and all that I do know I learn for all of you. Could this possible be a genetic disorder? From what I can tell they are not from the same parents, but maybe further back in the line? I'm just taking a W.A.G. but I sincerely hope all works out for you.
_________________________
SugarBattyPatty
AKA Pat
Mommy to: Sparky :wfb: and Precious :wfb:
Gizmo :wfb:



There is no sin in being ignorant, there is in remaining ignorant.

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#1188716 - 11/06/11 02:19 PM Re: Possible genetic metabolic/malabsorbtion disorder? [Re: Jackie_Chans_Mom]
Jackie_Chans_Mom Offline
Glider Addict

Registered: 05/01/07
Posts: 2511
Loc: Texas
Quote:
Could this possible be a genetic disorder? From what I can tell they are not from the same parents


One of the necropsy reports indicates that a genetic component should be considered. It is quoted above.
Hence, the title of this thread.

From what you can tell, WHO are not from the same parents?
All of the gliders showing these symptoms ARE from the same parents - Morsel & Kibble.

I would never have allowed Morsel and Kibble to breed if they were too closely related. I also 3 breeders check out their pairing before putting them together.
_________________________
~~ Val B ~~ 806-803-0318
Daily giving the abused, unloved, unwanted and neglected SOMETHING TO BELIEVE IN

PLEASE COMPLETE YOUR SUGAR GROUP SURVEYS!!!!!!!!!!!!

Top
#1189589 - 11/08/11 06:56 PM Re: Possible genetic metabolic/malabsorbtion disorder? [Re: Jackie_Chans_Mom]
angelic4296 Offline
Glider Addict

Registered: 09/06/05
Posts: 3264
Loc: Northeast U.S.
You're amazing to share this Val. I know how devastated you were and I'll say what I said back then again now - you're so incredibly valuable to the glider community because of your knowledge, your love, your compassion, and your continued hard work. Dumplin and Dot would be very unhappy peanuts if you're still beating yourself up over this unfortunate and sad situation. You're the most unbelievable glider mommy I know, and you sharing this sad story only proves that over and over again.

This story was fascinating, although I wish it was a story that you didn't have to tell. Thank you for sharing this with us, as it absolutely gives me something to think about and add to my knowledge bank. I hope things with Encore continue to improve and now that you have an idea of what's going on, I'm positive there will be a different outcome for her. Also give her kisses from ME and tell her I said to stop scaring mommy and get 100% back to her normal self!

Love you Val, thank you for this post, I know it must have been difficult for you to write. ((HUGS))
_________________________
Jess

2 spoiled gliders, Gizzy (6/05) and Ruthie (?/05) <3

Please consider rescuing first!

Please remember to complete your surveys at http://www.sugargroup.org/ - help better the lives of gliders everywhere smile

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#1189669 - 11/08/11 10:17 PM Re: Possible genetic metabolic/malabsorbtion disorder? [Re: Jackie_Chans_Mom]
Guerita135 Offline
Glider Addict

Registered: 08/05/07
Posts: 4645
Loc: Ohio
Out of curiosity, what is Kibble's lineage? I checked the database and didn't see it, but since there's a potential genetic condition in the line I'm curious to see their lineage.
_________________________
~Nicole~

Proudly enslaved by lots of silly suggies, 3 crazy kitties, a huffy hedgie, and a pretty puppy! grin

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#1189680 - 11/08/11 10:40 PM Re: Possible genetic metabolic/malabsorbtion disorder? [Re: Jackie_Chans_Mom]
Jackie_Chans_Mom Offline
Glider Addict

Registered: 05/01/07
Posts: 2511
Loc: Texas
Kibble and Tid-bit are twins. They have identical lineage, so I never added Kibble to the database (I just used Tid-bit's)
She is the only Tid-bit in the pet glider data base.

Parents are Sevin and Brando from Roya (GoGoGliders)


Edited by Jackie_Chans_Mom (11/08/11 10:44 PM)
_________________________
~~ Val B ~~ 806-803-0318
Daily giving the abused, unloved, unwanted and neglected SOMETHING TO BELIEVE IN

PLEASE COMPLETE YOUR SUGAR GROUP SURVEYS!!!!!!!!!!!!

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#1189682 - 11/08/11 10:43 PM Re: Possible genetic metabolic/malabsorbtion disorder? [Re: Jackie_Chans_Mom]
SolarFlare Offline
Out of Pouch

Registered: 06/20/11
Posts: 63
Loc: Central FL
Being irritated or impatient with someone who has asked whether perhaps a congenital condition might be genetic is unwarranted. It is a valid question. To say that a congenital factor cannot be excluded is a LONG way from saying that a genetic pattern of inheritance is likely.

"Congenital" and "genetic" are not synonymous terms. They cannot be used interchangeably. To say that something is congenital is simply to say that it is present "from birth." A given condition may be congenital, genetic, both or neither.

Spina bifida and cleft palate are congenital, but not genetic. Down Syndrome is both congenital and genetic. Cataracts may be non congenital, but may have a genetic component (an inherited predisposition). Environmental factors can also bring about genetic changes in an embryo or fetus. Many factors besides inheritance may lead to a congenital condition, which means that in trying to get to the bottom of this mystery, many variables must be considered.
_________________________
Lynn

~Wife to BatDaddy. Mom to The Batgirls.~
________________________________________



grin All of my babies have tails!
How does that keep happening? grin




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#1189756 - 11/09/11 08:14 AM Re: Possible genetic metabolic/malabsorbtion disorder? [Re: SolarFlare]
Guerita135 Offline
Glider Addict

Registered: 08/05/07
Posts: 4645
Loc: Ohio
Originally Posted By: SolarFlare
Being irritated or impatient with someone who has asked whether perhaps a congenital condition might be genetic is unwarranted. It is a valid question. To say that a congenital factor cannot be excluded is a LONG way from saying that a genetic pattern of inheritance is likely.

"Congenital" and "genetic" are not synonymous terms. They cannot be used interchangeably. To say that something is congenital is simply to say that it is present "from birth." A given condition may be congenital, genetic, both or neither.

Spina bifida and cleft palate are congenital, but not genetic. Down Syndrome is both congenital and genetic. Cataracts may be non congenital, but may have a genetic component (an inherited predisposition). Environmental factors can also bring about genetic changes in an embryo or fetus. Many factors besides inheritance may lead to a congenital condition, which means that in trying to get to the bottom of this mystery, many variables must be considered.


Well said. thumb
_________________________
~Nicole~

Proudly enslaved by lots of silly suggies, 3 crazy kitties, a huffy hedgie, and a pretty puppy! grin

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#1189758 - 11/09/11 08:16 AM Re: Possible genetic metabolic/malabsorbtion disorder? [Re: Guerita135]
nancy1202 Offline
Glider Addict

Registered: 05/21/08
Posts: 2529
Loc: Kentucky
I also have had "malabsorption" or malnutrition issues with gliders out of Morsel's line. I have neutered all males out of that line except one due to a possible genetic disorder. None of the females are breeding. I am so sorry, Val. Your story is heart-breaking. I sent a necropsy and the survey to the Sugar Group on July 21st for my glider who died. I didn't hear anything back, so I'm not sure if they were received. You can let me know if you would like me to forward it again.
_________________________
~Nancy~
http://www.derbycitygliders.com

:grey: Athena/Izzie, Lukas/Leilah, Mizuki/Elektra, Oliver/Ava, Gypsy/Ramon/Paloma
Rest of the menagerie: dogs, cats, corn snake, bearded dragon

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#1189768 - 11/09/11 09:18 AM Re: Possible genetic metabolic/malabsorbtion disorder? [Re: Jackie_Chans_Mom]
lilangels Offline
Glider Addict

Registered: 02/22/11
Posts: 3745
Loc: Butte, Mt. USA
Val my heart breaks for you going through all this. I know how worried you must be about your babies. I'll keep encore in my prayers and hope she continues to get better.
_________________________
Connie: soon to be wife to Harold, mom to 3 children, 2 precious kitties, and my treasured gliders.

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#1189774 - 11/09/11 09:50 AM Re: Possible genetic metabolic/malabsorbtion disorder? [Re: Jackie_Chans_Mom]
SolarFlare Offline
Out of Pouch

Registered: 06/20/11
Posts: 63
Loc: Central FL
I feel deep sympathy for what Val has gone through and I hope that this thread leads to some concrete answers. In the meantime, I think that it's important to not put on the blinders when it comes to cause and effect. So many of us use the same cages, the same diets, fruits and vegetables from the same large suppliers, and maybe even the same brand of bottled spring water. It's really important to explore lots of different avenues when it comes to issues like this, even though doing so may be extremely painful.

Kudos to all of you for compiling necropsy results and for trying to find a common thread. I hope that there's an answer to this problem soon!

I'd like to sort of expand upon my earlier post that explained the difference between "congenital" and "genetic" because although it may make your eyes glaze over with boredom, it's important. Let's say that you have a disease that appears at first glance to be genetic, but the true cause is lead in the ground water. If you neuter the males in your colony, you've masked the problem, but you haven't solved it because although it was congenital, its cause was not genetic. In neutering the males, you'd assure that you have no more affected joeys, but you'd still have the cause of the problem-- contaminants in the ground water.

If you take your corrective neutering action a step further and neuter all related males in the hopes that doing so brings an end to a problem that MAY be genetic, it may make you feel better in the short term. In the long term, though, in reducing the genetic diversity among the captive glider population, you've increased the potential for a bottleneck. In trying to head off a problem that MIGHT be genetic, you've increased the likelihood that somewhere down the line, a worse issue WILL rear its ugly head, and it WILL be genetic. Because genetic diversity in the population is limited, it is our responsibility to manage it as carefully as we can. Sometimes this may mean holding off on neutering until a pattern is discovered rather than neutering several related males "just in case," even though waiting may make us nervous. In the end, the decision whether or not to neuter a male is up to the person who cares for him, but it may be in the overall best interest of the entire population not to "panic neuter" entire lines.

My heart goes out to anyone who is struggling or has struggled with this issue. I wish that genetic testing for unknowns were easier, faster and cheaper than it is. It's very difficult to have to "hurry up and wait" while trying desperately to figure out the answers to problems like this. Best of luck to all involved.
_________________________
Lynn

~Wife to BatDaddy. Mom to The Batgirls.~
________________________________________



grin All of my babies have tails!
How does that keep happening? grin




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#1189775 - 11/09/11 09:58 AM Re: Possible genetic metabolic/malabsorbtion disorder? [Re: Jackie_Chans_Mom]
tjlong Offline
Glider Slave

Registered: 09/25/09
Posts: 1710
Loc: Washington
Lynn, I can understand what you are trying to say but I am not sure it applies to this particular situation. You see, Val has more than this colony of gliders and the others have not been effected. In fact, it is my belief that gliders that are from Morsel and Kibble are suffering from this but joeys from Morsel and Tid-Bit (kibbles twin) are not displaying similar issues. Yes, it seems to be genetic but not sure that there will be an environmental or additional underlying issue with this one.

I have Kokanee who is from Morsel and Tid-Bit. I have not seen any problems with him. I am hoping he is fine! However, I am definitely not ruling out the option of neutering just to be safe in this case.
_________________________
Regards,
Tracy
(425) 789-7753
Acres of Sugar

:rtmo: Slave to Several Adorable Gliders :wfb:
~~~~~ :cream: :grey: :leu: :bb: ~~~~~
Sugar Glider Genetic Project





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#1189788 - 11/09/11 10:38 AM Re: Possible genetic metabolic/malabsorbtion disorder? [Re: Jackie_Chans_Mom]
SolarFlare Offline
Out of Pouch

Registered: 06/20/11
Posts: 63
Loc: Central FL
Oh, I'm definitely not saying that it's not genetic. There's likely at least a genetic component, and it may be entirely genetic. It's just also important not to lose sight of other factors. Neutering makes that easy to do because is such a "quick fix."

Nancy1202 posts that she's had issues with gliders out of Morsel's line. In Val's case, there may be problems in the babies from one girl but not the other. To me, this points to what is likely a pretty complex cause, not just a straight heritability on one side or the other sort of thing. I spent some time last night looking at lineages, and it struck me as interesting that the joeys with problems came from one sister, but not the other.

People who have gliders who are closely related to the involved gliders should probably be keeping a very close eye on those gliders and on their joeys. If I were among them, I would be keeping an eye on my gliders, and I wouldn't be ruling out the option of neutering. What I think should be avoided is a mass panic, "everybody neuter any males who are related to ________" sort of situation. I'm very relieved to hear that Kokanee is doing well. smile

I very rarely post, and I only do so when I feel that I have a unique perspective to offer. In this case, I wanted to clear up the congenital/genetic misunderstanding and to remind those involved to also take a look at other factors. Our gliders have so many things in common besides their lineages. Though in this case my gut feeling is that there may be something genetic going on, a mass neuter is at this point premature.
_________________________
Lynn

~Wife to BatDaddy. Mom to The Batgirls.~
________________________________________



grin All of my babies have tails!
How does that keep happening? grin




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#1189790 - 11/09/11 10:48 AM Re: Possible genetic metabolic/malabsorbtion disorder? [Re: SolarFlare]
nancy1202 Offline
Glider Addict

Registered: 05/21/08
Posts: 2529
Loc: Kentucky
I just wanted to assure Lynn and anyone else that I did not do, nor would I endorse, a "panic" neutering. It was carefully thought out, and there were other reasons besides the possibilities of a genetic issue. I do not call myself a "breeder" because I keep almost all of the joeys born here. There is only so much room in my home!
_________________________
~Nancy~
http://www.derbycitygliders.com

:grey: Athena/Izzie, Lukas/Leilah, Mizuki/Elektra, Oliver/Ava, Gypsy/Ramon/Paloma
Rest of the menagerie: dogs, cats, corn snake, bearded dragon

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#1189795 - 11/09/11 11:07 AM Re: Possible genetic metabolic/malabsorbtion disorder? [Re: Jackie_Chans_Mom]
tjlong Offline
Glider Slave

Registered: 09/25/09
Posts: 1710
Loc: Washington
I agree that going neuter crazy is not in order. I do believe Nancy made the right choice but as Lynn mentioned, sometimes things are very complex. I am glad brought this to the public so people will be aware of the posibilities. Also, I hope others who may have trouble with their gliders that sounds similar to this will step forward or at least contact Val so there is some way to see if things are linked.
_________________________
Regards,
Tracy
(425) 789-7753
Acres of Sugar

:rtmo: Slave to Several Adorable Gliders :wfb:
~~~~~ :cream: :grey: :leu: :bb: ~~~~~
Sugar Glider Genetic Project





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#1189969 - 11/09/11 08:19 PM Re: Possible genetic metabolic/malabsorbtion disorder? [Re: Jackie_Chans_Mom]
Jackie_Chans_Mom Offline
Glider Addict

Registered: 05/01/07
Posts: 2511
Loc: Texas
Nancy - please do forward those reports to me again. Please forward them to my personal email (pickardsgal@yahoo.com) as it would seem that more than one set of reports sent to the SUGAR Group email have not been received.
THANK YOU so much for your part in this research and please know that I am still very sorry for your loss. I know it was a shock to you and my heart goes out to you.


Lynn - you are very correct in that I did not post the part of the report that indicates a GENETIC component should be considered.

You see? As is always my way, I posted about and discussed this issue on TSS a full week prior to posting it here. When I had time to bring it here, I simply copied and pasted the thread from TSS to here (and changed number of days that Encore had been treated). I did not bother to re-read what I had posted. Nor did I bother to verify that I had posted that comment from my necropsy report when I made the comment here that I had. Chalk it up to lazy or to just feeling that I am living this every day and have said the same things over and over again on the phone and/or on TSS. Either way, I did not read through what I had posted.

So, you are right, the genetic comment made by the pathologist is not a part of my post. When I have time to get to my other computer (where necropsy reports are stored) I will make sure to post it.

As an aside, I did have them save some tissues for testing at a later date (should we find something we want them tested for).

Having said that, I will say that you are very wrong in your characterization of my response as being impatient or "snapping" (the word you originally used). I have very limited time to be here posting and I am trying to make sure that anyone that needs/wants more information is getting it. What you perceive as impatient was just me asking questions and clarifying for someone who, like yourself, does not know me at all and would not have assumed that I put a lot of thought into this pairing. It was short and to the point simply because that was all the time I had at that moment. My intent was not at all impatient or irritated. Just as it is not now. I'm not at all irritated or offended because I know that you don't know me at all, so you could not have based your perception upon any knowledge you have of me. wink
Newby55 - If YOU felt that I was impatient or irritated with you, then I deeply apologize to you for my abruptness.


****************************
To clarify and offer more insight:

I have a house full of gliders - many who are in various stages of healing from injury or illness (such is the daily life of a rescue home). I can't help but think that if this were environmental, I would see at least ONE other glider with the same symptoms somewhere outside of this family. At the least, If water or diet or other environmental issues were contributing, I would think that those with injuries or illnesses would not be getting better. Yet, they all are. This does not exclude an environmental factor, but does make it less probable.

Additionally, as the owner of the SUGAR Group, I assure you all that I AM studying everything that might contribute to this. Any of you who have participated in our neurological issues study or other studies know that we look into everything from lineage to diet to sources of the foods used to brands and materials that food is stored in, cleaning products used, types of air filtration systems in the room/home, and even brands of refrigerators/freezers used and so much more. I am in no way saying that there is only one possible explanation here. I would not do that - research into issues concerning sugar gliders has consumed every moment of my free time over the course of the last 3 years. Issues in my own home are no exception.

I have had other gliders pass away in the months and weeks surrounding the deaths of Dot and Dumplin. Each of those gliders also had necropsy and histopathology testing. Neither of them showed any hint of this type of issue. They passed of different issues (sepsis and kidney failure).
I am confident that this issue is confined to this family/line in my home.

I am NOT confident that all of the gliders coming from Tid-bit are free and clear of this. This is why I will not let any of Cash's family/joeys leave here either. I am watching all of Tid-bit's babies very closely as well. I am fortunate in that respect, because ALL of Morsel's offspring (whether with Tid-bit or Kibble) are currently in my home. They will ALL live out thier lives here with me and each one of them will contribute to the SUGAR Group's research in several different ways.

All the males from Morsel and Cash's familesthat are here in my home are already neutered. I did not neuter them out of a panic. Most of thm (all but the youngest four of Cash's family ) were netuered before anyone ever showed signs of illness. All the boys have been neutered because I am a rescue home and neutering boys is what I do.

Lastly, thank you all for your words of support. They mean more to me than you can know.
Encore IS improving. She has shown increased strength and improved functional mobility. I will update again after her x-rays and testing are completed.


Edited by Jackie_Chans_Mom (11/09/11 08:28 PM)
_________________________
~~ Val B ~~ 806-803-0318
Daily giving the abused, unloved, unwanted and neglected SOMETHING TO BELIEVE IN

PLEASE COMPLETE YOUR SUGAR GROUP SURVEYS!!!!!!!!!!!!

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#1189974 - 11/09/11 08:39 PM Re: Possible genetic metabolic/malabsorbtion disorder? [Re: Jackie_Chans_Mom]
SolarFlare Offline
Out of Pouch

Registered: 06/20/11
Posts: 63
Loc: Central FL
I don't frequent TSS, nor do I intend to. I had to think for a moment to even realize what "TSS" meant.

The "word that I originally used" was up for approximately thirty seconds while I proofread my own post and then changed it. I realize that what sounds snappy to me may not to someone else, so I altered my wording. If you truly would have phrased your response in such a way if an established member of the forum had asked the same question rather than a relatively new member, then perhaps it truly wasn't impatient or snappy. If that's the case, then I misread your tone. It happens.

I'm sorry that I attempted to help. It won't happen again.
_________________________
Lynn

~Wife to BatDaddy. Mom to The Batgirls.~
________________________________________



grin All of my babies have tails!
How does that keep happening? grin




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#1189985 - 11/09/11 09:01 PM Re: Possible genetic metabolic/malabsorbtion disorder? [Re: Jackie_Chans_Mom]
nancy1202 Offline
Glider Addict

Registered: 05/21/08
Posts: 2529
Loc: Kentucky
Originally Posted By: Jackie_Chans_Mom
Nancy - please do forward those reports to me again.
I just sent them both to your personal email. thumb You are more than welcome. I am still missing my sweet girl. All I can hope is that her death might bring some kind of knowledge or insight that can help other gliders and their owners.
_________________________
~Nancy~
http://www.derbycitygliders.com

:grey: Athena/Izzie, Lukas/Leilah, Mizuki/Elektra, Oliver/Ava, Gypsy/Ramon/Paloma
Rest of the menagerie: dogs, cats, corn snake, bearded dragon

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#1189997 - 11/09/11 09:18 PM Re: Possible genetic metabolic/malabsorbtion disorder? [Re: Jackie_Chans_Mom]
sugarlope Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 03/28/02
Posts: 19735
Loc: in my happy place
This may be a really stupid idea, so sorry if it's either been discussed previously or ruled out or just doesn't fit. tounge

But I know I have read about a few gliders having problems with megacolon. I may have misread what was written, but it seemed like the colons were distended? Megacolon (from my understanding) can cause absorption problems and be either congenital or caused by something later in life.

I'm just tossing it out there because I didn't see any mention of it. dunno
_________________________
~Gretchen
Maia & Squish
If we never loved, then maybe we would never feel pain. Love anyway. It's worth it.

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#1190242 - 11/10/11 05:09 PM Re: Possible genetic metabolic/malabsorbtion disorder? [Re: Jackie_Chans_Mom]
Jackie_Chans_Mom Offline
Glider Addict

Registered: 05/01/07
Posts: 2511
Loc: Texas
Thank you again, Nancy, for your participation in this research.

Gretchen, I do not think it is a stupid idea at all. Not at all!

*********************
As promised, here is the other comment from Dot's necropsy report:
Quote:
Osteopenic osteopathy/osteoporosis is not a common diagnosis for the species. Intake statements by owner indicate a grave concern regarding this finding. Spoke with Ms. Betts via phone and recommended that genetic link be considered, esp. in light of recent similar findings in subjectís sibling and poor response to previous treatment. A review of literature does not turn up any cases of similar finding and severity in the absence of other maladies. Ms. Betts reports that TSG has no cases on file of similar finding but does share findings from others with metabolic bone disease. Additional tissues secured for future testing.
_________________________
~~ Val B ~~ 806-803-0318
Daily giving the abused, unloved, unwanted and neglected SOMETHING TO BELIEVE IN

PLEASE COMPLETE YOUR SUGAR GROUP SURVEYS!!!!!!!!!!!!

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#1190344 - 11/10/11 10:34 PM Re: Possible genetic metabolic/malabsorbtion disorder? [Re: Jackie_Chans_Mom]
hwh4ev Offline
Glider Addict

Registered: 12/03/08
Posts: 2836
Loc: roseville, mi
val,
thank you for sharing this with us. heartbreaking it is but it also helps us to learn abt. these types of problems.

i hope your other baby continues to get better.

take care and hugs sent your way.
nancy in detroit
_________________________
regards,
nancy in roseville (formerly in detroit)

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#1190594 - 11/11/11 02:22 PM Re: Possible genetic metabolic/malabsorbtion disorder? [Re: Jackie_Chans_Mom]
pappy1264 Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 08/31/06
Posts: 11015
Loc: MA
Val, I don't get in here often, but had to comment on this post. First off, I am very sorry to read of all the heartache you have been facing. RIP little ones.

If you remember Pru, she had megacolon, no other issues were found on necropsy. She had been 132 grams, when she passed, she was 60. vet spoke of possible metabolic changes due to diet and not being able to get the amount of movement/exercise compared to their wild counterparts and she said she wouldn't be surprised of more gliders being found to have primary megacolon. She believes some genetically are just predisposed to it (as in cats, they have not been able to find connections in cases that would give them a 'why' certain animals were getting it.) She felt genetics combined with just them being kept in cages is about the only thing all gliders will have in common. I hope I put that correctly. They do develope a tumor, it is actually poo, but upon exam feels like a true tumor. My vet discussed motility drugs, along with occasional laxatives to try to keep things moving properly. Pru developed her issues later in life, so they very well could be two different things here. But for four months before her anal glands became impacted (they were removed, but Pru continued to loose weight, make 'that noise' and have off and on boughts with potty problems.), she was battling bouts of constipation. It wasn't until she got very bad and the tumor was felt (btw, although it could be felt under sedation on palpation, it did NOT show up on xray.) We never really got a definite answer to the 'why'. But I do believe the issues you are seeing are more prevalent then previously thought.

Again, I am sorry for your losses.


Edited by pappy1264 (11/11/11 02:24 PM)
_________________________
Timmy, Gidget(RIP), Bandit, Petey(RIP), Phoebe, Jake (RIP) Piper(RIP), Pru(RIP), Paige, Cole, Molly(RIP), Oliver, Wyatt, Roo(RIP), Romeo, Pennie, Mandy(RIP), Madison, Garth, Kikipoo, Stasia, Bella, Petunia(RIP), Helen, Sydney, Kizzy and Sweet Pea's mom,
Mary

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#1190758 - 11/11/11 07:44 PM Re: Possible genetic metabolic/malabsorbtion disorder? [Re: Jackie_Chans_Mom]
CandyOtte Offline
Serious Glideritis

Registered: 09/03/08
Posts: 5138
Loc: Lutz Florida
Nancy1202

Quote:
I also have had "malabsorption" or malnutrition issues with gliders out of Morsel's line. I have neutered all males out of that line except one due to a possible genetic disorder. None of the females are breeding. I am so sorry, Val. Your story is heart-breaking. I sent a necropsy and the survey to the Sugar Group on July 21st for my glider who died. I didn't hear anything back, so I'm not sure if they were received. You can let me know if you would like me to forward it again.


Does this include the glider you lost due to malnutrition identified on necropsy that you stated publicly was caused by the glider being fed the Blended diet?
_________________________
Candy Otte
& the Glider Kids
Sassy, Corky, Mehitabel & Missy
Wacco, Yacco, & Dot
Mindy, Kanobles, Elmo, & Chipper

http://www.gliderkids-diet.com

CandyOtte@aol.com

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#1190788 - 11/11/11 10:01 PM Re: Possible genetic metabolic/malabsorbtion disorder? [Re: CandyOtte]
nancy1202 Offline
Glider Addict

Registered: 05/21/08
Posts: 2529
Loc: Kentucky
CandyOtte
Quote:
Does this include the glider you lost due to malnutrition identified on necropsy that you stated publicly was caused by the glider being fed the Blended Diet?
I'd be more than happy to revisit exactly what I "stated publicly", but not here in Val's thread. Feel free to revive one of the "Blended diet" threads or start a new one if you'd like. thumb
_________________________
~Nancy~
http://www.derbycitygliders.com

:grey: Athena/Izzie, Lukas/Leilah, Mizuki/Elektra, Oliver/Ava, Gypsy/Ramon/Paloma
Rest of the menagerie: dogs, cats, corn snake, bearded dragon

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#1190800 - 11/11/11 11:04 PM Re: Possible genetic metabolic/malabsorbtion disorder? [Re: Jackie_Chans_Mom]
DCMuffin Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 03/21/10
Posts: 28202
Loc: Washington D.C. Metro Area
Thank you, Nancy. If there are revisits that need to happen, please do them privately so that this thread stays on topic.
Quote:
3. Please keep the posts closely related to the topic. If the topic sparks another thought for discussion, please open a new thread. Post messages in the most appropriate forum. Please refrain from posting the same message in more than one forum. Only one of those messages will remain posted. Do not be offended if moderators move your thread to a forum that fits your topic. In a large forum like ours, this kind of housekeeping is necessary. It is not personal. Please do not use excessive CAPS or bold lettering. It makes your message very hard to read and implies you are shouting.
_________________________
Aimee & The Monkeys

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