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#1191656 - 11/14/11 01:18 AM Instant HPW v.s. HPW Complete
Dancing Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 09/10/04
Posts: 22746
Loc: 80 acres of paradise in KS
I'm looking at both products (Instant HPW and HPW Complete) side by side and doing some comparisons because I would like to have some on hand in case of emergency need (such as being snowed in, power outages etc) but I have some concerns. I am trying to make an informed decision.

The Instant HPW is simply that...instant HPW. It is made with Wambaroo High Protein Suppliment with the addition of powdered eggs, powdered honey and bee pollen. It contains Natural Vit K1, not synthetic K3. It does not contain artificial flavorings. It uses methionine instead of the synthetic DL-methionine.


HPW Complete uses synthetic supplements such as K3 (which has been known to be harmful to other animals). This is a HUGE concern to me. The MSDS has it listed as having CARCINOGENIC EFFECTS and that it is toxic to kidneys, lungs, liver, mucous membranes.
http://www.sciencelab.com/msds.php?msdsId=9924604


I see so many on here putting down the Exotic Nutrition's Instant HPW but endorsing the HPW Complete. My question is why?
_________________________
620-704-9109
Judge not until you have walked in their shoes and lived their lives. What you see online is only part of the story.

I could have missed the pain
But I'd of had to miss the dance


The soul would have no rainbow if the eyes had no tears.

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#1191669 - 11/14/11 05:17 AM Re: Instant HPW v.s. HPW Complete [Re: Dancing]
Teresa56 Offline
Glider Lover

Registered: 11/05/10
Posts: 423
Loc: Florida
WOW that is interesting--I am thinking about going back to the old HPW diet--now I can add this to my pros and cons note.
_________________________
Mom to JayP
Owned by 2 :kitty:

Slave to 2 colonies
Colony #1= Trio
Skeeter :grey: and MissHarmony :wfb: and Miss Sanora :wfb:

Colony # 2 pair
Flora :rtmo: and her huney Freddy :grey:


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#1191670 - 11/14/11 05:20 AM Re: Instant HPW v.s. HPW Complete [Re: Dancing]
Srlb Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 10/30/03
Posts: 16745
Loc: St. Johns, Florida
Teresa, if you are concerned with the items that are in the HPW Complete, please feel free to use the Instant HPW or something else.

One of the MANY differences between the HPW Complete and the knock off Instant HPW is that the HPW Complete has been, and is continuing to be tested. The HPW Complete has been proven through these testings to be safe for our gliders. It has been worked on by some of the best glider knowledgeable vets and animal nutritionists/chemists who understand how the digestion system of a sugar glider works. There have been many studies on this (Sugar glider digestion) that lots of folks are not even aware of and are only obtainable through veterinarian sources.

If you take a look at my testimonial page or even ask those who use the HPW Complete how THEY feel about it, and how well it is working for them and their gliders, I am sure you will get lots of happy replies with the HPW Complete product. It speaks for itself.

In the link that you posted, if you scroll down, you will see it clearly states:

Quote:
Special Remarks on Toxicity to Animals: Not available


Also, with the necropsies that have been done over the years by those who believe in them and understand the importance of them, studies have shown that too much protein can cause kidney failure and liver damage to our gliders. With a crude protein of 44% and then the encouragement to feed that along with the Glider Complete which is another 39% crude protein, this brings large concerns to me and those I work with.

diet is purely a choice. I encourage everyone to research what they feed their babies. I encourage you to take the HPW Complete or the HPW Plus to your veterinarian and ask about it. If they have any questions about it, please have them call Dr.Tristan with the questions and he will be able to go over those with them as well.

Different animals digest different things on different levels. What may be toxic to one is not necessarily toxic to others. Example, we always tell people, if it is safe for a bird, it is probably safe for our glider. However, that is not always the case. Our gliders (well most of them) LOVE avocado, however if you feed avocado to a bird, it is going to kill them. Our gliders LOVE grapes, however, if you feed them to a dog, it is going to make them very sick or can even be fatal (Poison control states that as few as 7 grapes can be fatal).

Wombaroo High Protein Supplement in itself is an excellent product. That isnt the part of the Instant that concerns me at all.

Besides, you feed Reeps diet.... isnt that where you just sprinkle the wombaroo over their foods anyway?
_________________________
Peggy
Critter Love
Critter Love® Diet Center

If you want to know what a person is like, watch how he treats others.

You'll never know what the outcome is if you don't step up and try.


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#1191677 - 11/14/11 06:43 AM Re: Instant HPW v.s. HPW Complete [Re: Dancing]
GliderAli Offline
Joey Member

Registered: 04/30/11
Posts: 117
Loc: South Carolina
Dancing,

If you're looking for a product to just keep on hand for an emergency power outage, it means you're only going to use it for a day or two, so I'm not sure why you're making such a strong analysis of the ingredients. Heck, a jar of baby chicken food would suffice.

It looks to me like you really wanted to start a thread to compare the Instant and the Complete - well, honestly, more like to criticize the Complete.

What I can offer here is this: I know that the Complete has been heavily tested in sugar gliders and is safe. I also know that many MANY people on the boards have reported healthy joey weights, weight gain, and overall glider health. Also, when I first offered it to my gliders, they dove into it like it was their first meal ever.

So, in answer to your question "why?" I will say this. I have nothing to say about the Instant because I don't use products that I don't know enough about and I endorse the Complete because it has been tested and proven to be safe. Also, I trust Peggy, the creator of the diet, and guess what? Sometimes you just have to put your faith in people in this world.

In fact, I think your question should have been directed to her and I'm sure she could have answered it to your satisfaction instead of posting it here, which again, in my opinion, looks like you're trying to start a diet bash thread. The answer to almost every question about a particular diet is going to be, "go ask the creator", especially when it's something as technical as the type of Vitamin K, methionine, the MSDS, blah blah blah (all the stuff that I have no idea what you're talking about.
_________________________
Ali Grondski

Wife, Mother to beautiful 6-year old girl, Brooke
2 dogs, and 6 gliders:
Diamond & Ringo
Boo-Boo & Pumpkin
Flower & Powder

www.gliderali.com

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#1191686 - 11/14/11 07:25 AM Re: Instant HPW v.s. HPW Complete [Re: Dancing]
DCMuffin Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 03/21/10
Posts: 28202
Loc: Washington D.C. Metro Area
As I've read these threads, I can't say I agree that we are putting down the Instant HPW from Exotic Nutrition. Rather, we've said that we are familiar with HPW Complete, we've seen gliders with healthy fur, healthy weights and that it has been and continues to be tested and that we would recommend it to glider owners.

You won't typically see me here promoting one diet over another. In fact, you'll rarely see me posting what I feed because I want people to make their own choices. But since the Instant HPW is new, until I, personally, know more about it and with the protein numbers it presents, I can't, in good conscience, recommend it until I have more information.
_________________________
Aimee & The Monkeys

www.gliderchef.com

www.thejumpinmonkey.com

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#1191694 - 11/14/11 07:52 AM Re: Instant HPW v.s. HPW Complete [Re: Dancing]
Lynsie Offline
Serious Glideritis

Registered: 02/07/05
Posts: 8322
Loc: Quincy, IL 62305
Originally Posted By: Dancing
I'm looking at both products (Instant HPW and HPW Complete) side by side and doing some comparisons because I would like to have some on hand in case of emergency need (such as being snowed in, power outages etc) but I have some concerns. I am trying to make an informed decision.

The Instant HPW is simply that...instant HPW. It is made with Wambaroo High Protein Suppliment with the addition of powdered eggs, powdered honey and bee pollen. It contains Natural Vit K1, not synthetic K3. It does not contain artificial flavorings. It uses methionine instead of the synthetic DL-methionine.


HPW Complete uses synthetic supplements such as K3 (which has been known to be harmful to other animals). This is a HUGE concern to me. The MSDS has it listed as having CARCINOGENIC EFFECTS and that it is toxic to kidneys, lungs, liver, mucous membranes.
http://www.sciencelab.com/msds.php?msdsId=9924604


I see so many on here putting down the Exotic Nutrition's Instant HPW but endorsing the HPW Complete. My question is why?


I don't understand why you wouldn't just keep your own diet on hand?
_________________________
Lynsie,
LuckyYou Gliders


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#1191728 - 11/14/11 09:24 AM Re: Instant HPW v.s. HPW Complete [Re: Dancing]
hushpuppy Offline
Glider Slave

Registered: 01/31/01
Posts: 1640
Loc: Mims, Florida, USA
I think that an important point is getting lost in this post. The question should be “Is synthetic K3 safe?” If anyone has concerns about that, do a google search on “synthetic K 3”. There are many articles and you should easily be able to form an opinion. It just makes me glad that I don't use any of these diets.
_________________________
Anita Rae
StealthWheels, MagnumWheels and more at Atticworx

Play with us on Facebook




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#1191736 - 11/14/11 10:03 AM Re: Instant HPW v.s. HPW Complete [Re: hushpuppy]
Sherri Offline
Glider Addict

Registered: 11/02/06
Posts: 3826
Loc: Big Sandy TN
Originally Posted By: hushpuppy
I think that an important point is getting lost in this post. The question should be “Is synthetic K3 safe?”



Well personally, I'm not sure why its being brought up again in the first place. If you want to continue discussing this why not just bring the old threads back up that these questions were asked from 6 months ago?
_________________________
sherri

Forever home to a wide variety of animals, domestic, farm and exotic.
My passion is my little suggie sweethearts! 731-441-9814


http://www.newbysglidernook.com/index.html

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#1191740 - 11/14/11 10:10 AM Re: Instant HPW v.s. HPW Complete [Re: Sherri]
hushpuppy Offline
Glider Slave

Registered: 01/31/01
Posts: 1640
Loc: Mims, Florida, USA
Originally Posted By: Sherri
Originally Posted By: hushpuppy
I think that an important point is getting lost in this post. The question should be “Is synthetic K3 safe?”



Well personally, I'm not sure why its being brought up again in the first place. If you want to continue discussing this why not just bring the old threads back up that these questions were asked from 6 months ago?


I didn't know that this had already been discussed. Do you want to enlighten us?

Edit to add: I wanted to clarify something. I am neither for nor against HPW....nor any other product. I have been doing lots of research on my own health issues. I am diabetic. I have learned a lot about the causes and treatment of my own health problems and I came across a term (synthetic K3) that I hadn't seen before. So I looked it up wondering if it is something that I might need. I was clueless that this topic has been previously discussed and I hope Sherri comes back and explains how K3 is a good supplement.


Edited by hushpuppy (11/14/11 10:57 AM)
_________________________
Anita Rae
StealthWheels, MagnumWheels and more at Atticworx

Play with us on Facebook




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#1191743 - 11/14/11 10:23 AM Re: Instant HPW v.s. HPW Complete [Re: Dancing]
GliderNursery Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 09/14/07
Posts: 20049
Loc: North Central Ohio
Just wanted to throw this out there - I spoke with the folks at Exotic Nutrition about their Instant HPW. I can't speak for them as to what testing was done or wasn't done, who they consulted with or didn't, or what the results were compared to. But, according to them, they also had their Nutritionists work on the Instant HPW. Just so the facts are out there, Instant HPW was developed using nutritionists; it isn't an "un-tested" product as these threads seem to imply.

Now, are their results good or bad? dunno Good product or bad? dunno I'm not promoting their product here, just forwarding the info that I have. And that is all that I know about it. wink
_________________________
Shelly

Don't sacrifice quality information for convenient information.


Glider Nursery

Sugar Glider Foundation



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#1191750 - 11/14/11 10:56 AM Re: Instant HPW v.s. HPW Complete [Re: Dancing]
CandyOtte Offline
Serious Glideritis

Registered: 09/03/08
Posts: 5138
Loc: Lutz Florida
It would have helped if Exotic Nutrition had given this product a name other than HPW anything. It is another choice among many glider diets and should not necessarily be compared to other diets. If it is tested, post the results and let it stand on its own merits - and give it a unique name.

I have also seen posts recently from members here and on GG from Malaysia who purchase a product also called "Instant HPW" at their pet stores. I have to wonder if the two products are the same, or extremely different mixtures. We will probably never get an answer on that question.
_________________________
Candy Otte
& the Glider Kids
Sassy, Corky, Mehitabel & Missy
Wacco, Yacco, & Dot
Mindy, Kanobles, Elmo, & Chipper

http://www.gliderkids-diet.com

CandyOtte@aol.com

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#1191760 - 11/14/11 11:26 AM Re: Instant HPW v.s. HPW Complete [Re: Dancing]
Srlb Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 10/30/03
Posts: 16745
Loc: St. Johns, Florida
Quote:
I think that an important point is getting lost in this post. The question should be “Is synthetic K3 safe?”


I agree Anita. And that is why as SOON as it was voiced as a concern for some folks I went straight to the Nutritionist to ask about it myself, when it was first asked about. There is already a post pertaining to it here on GC (will post the link in a sec)

This is from my Nutritionist when asked about the Menadione:

Quote:
My response from my nutritionist:
Quote:
Sorry I have not been by a computer for most of the day. I have attached a page out of AAFCO that has Menadione Sodium Bisulfite Complex listed. In order for us to legally use any ingredients, they must be in this book. Therefore, this is an approved feed ingredient. We are very strict about using only approved feed ingredients – no exceptions!! Hope that helps.


And out of the AAFCO pertaining to the Menadoine (and I will post that link as well in a sec)this is what it says:

Quote:
X Other: Menadione was listed in the OP prior to the publication of 1977 edition.
No reason could be found for the omission of medadione and therefore, it is suspected that this may
have happened inadvertently


Again, I need to stress to folks, those things that may be fatal to humans, birds, dogs, etc may not actually be fatal to our gliders. The digestion system on a glider is NOT like that of ours, our birds, our dogs etc.

Quote:
Just wanted to throw this out there - I spoke with the folks at Exotic Nutrition about their Instant HPW. I can't speak for them as to what testing was done or wasn't done, who they consulted with or didn't, or what the results were compared to. But, according to them, they also had their Nutritionists work on the Instant HPW. Just so the facts are out there, Instant HPW was developed using nutritionists; it isn't an "un-tested" product as these threads seem to imply.


Shelly has already shared with me about EN stating they have a Nutritionist helping them. One question I do have, is it manufactured here in the USA or are they having it manufactured in Australia since they are using the Wombaroo High Protein Supplement?

The *concern* I and some vets have about the EN Instant is again the amount of crude protein. Only time will tell with any diet how it is being received. I just want to make sure folks are aware that higher protein levels in a diet have shown, through necropsies and histopaths, it can play havoc on the kidneys and livers.

Quote:
I have also seen posts recently from members here and on GG from Malaysia who purchase a product also called "Instant HPW" at their pet stores. I have to wonder if the two products are the same, or extremely different mixtures. We will probably never get an answer on that question.


I think I may be able to help answer this one as well.

The Instant HPW that was being sold in Malaysia was Wombaroo High Protein Supplement that had powdered egg included.All they needed to do was to add the honey and bee pollen. It was offered through *Bugsy*. They are discontinuing that product and will be offering the HPW Complete in its place. They are my main distributor in Malaysia for the HPW Plus and HPW Complete.

Now, here is the link to the previous post about the menadione back in May that even Teresa took part in.
http://www.glidercentral.net/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php/topics/1122045/Menadione#Post1122045

And here is the link to the PDF file from the AAFCO stating that the Menadione is safe:
http://www.glidercentral.net/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php/topics/1122045/Menadione#Post1122045
_________________________
Peggy
Critter Love
Critter Love® Diet Center

If you want to know what a person is like, watch how he treats others.

You'll never know what the outcome is if you don't step up and try.


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#1191775 - 11/14/11 12:39 PM Re: Instant HPW v.s. HPW Complete [Re: Dancing]
Dancing Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 09/10/04
Posts: 22746
Loc: 80 acres of paradise in KS
Ok, first off, I am NOT trying to bash anything. I am researching. I live in the middle of no where and we do have power outages frequently. And being rural, we are often the last to get power back on. Yes, I can still feed Reep's diet during an outage. But we also have been snowed in for a week or more before and NOT able to get out our driveway to get supplies, much less the 20 miles to the grocery store. So while I can continue to feed Reep's, I can only do so IF I don't run out of supplies.


Quote:
Besides, you feed Reeps diet.... isnt that where you just sprinkle the wombaroo over their foods anyway?

Peggy you know darn well that Reep's diet is not just "sprinkling on wambaroo". I know you well enough to know that YOU have looked at it in the past so don't take cheap shots trying to make me look bad. I am only questioning which product is better and safer. I'm trying to do so with an open mind.

Quote:
With a crude protein of 44% and then the encouragement to feed that along with the Glider Complete which is another 39% crude protein, this brings large concerns to me


This is less of a concern to me. I wouldn't be feeding it with the Glider Complete any more than I would be feeding HPW Complete with Glider chow. HPW Complete has 54% protein. If you are concerned about the 44%, you should be concerned with the 54%. Besides, it is only PART of a diet. 1/3 of the diet. It would only be for the Instant HPW, about 15% protein and for the HPW Complete would be 18% protein in the over all diet.


The K3 IS a concern. It is not a human grade product. It is "approved" for animal feed. It is banned in the US for human use because of the health risk it poses to humans. And there in lies the concerns for me. We do not know the long term (5 years or more) results of feeding K3 to gliders. We do know it is harmful to cats, dogs and humans.

Quote:
Now, here is the link to the previous post about the menadione back in May that even Teresa took part in.
http://www.glidercentral.net/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php/topics/1122045/Menadione#Post1122045


Yes, I did participate in that thread and voiced my concerns there too. Please, do read what I wrote on there. Again, I was not bashing, I was questioning. I also questioned BML in that thread (and the fact that the herptivite had the K3). I was hoping others had done research on it since that thread and had input to offer. I REALLY wish EN would come and post their input as well.

As I said, I'm not looking to CHANGE diets but to have a back up if I get snowed in or some such type situation. Just like I have back up heat sources lined up, and back up oxygen sources lined up, I need to keep back up food sources lined up. I usually have Pet Pro as a back up but I have quite a few gliders that think it is a fun snack (one or two pieces) but think I'm crazy for offering it for "dinner". I have been reading everyone's "reviews" of the HPW Complete and that is why I am even considering using it, or at least doing more research about it. And trust me, I have been doing the same research about the Instant HPW and it's ingredients.

I am not bashing, I'm questioning and I won't be bullied into NOT questioning.
_________________________
620-704-9109
Judge not until you have walked in their shoes and lived their lives. What you see online is only part of the story.

I could have missed the pain
But I'd of had to miss the dance


The soul would have no rainbow if the eyes had no tears.

Top
#1191784 - 11/14/11 01:19 PM Re: Instant HPW v.s. HPW Complete [Re: Dancing]
GliderNursery Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 09/14/07
Posts: 20049
Loc: North Central Ohio
Originally Posted By: Dancing
I REALLY wish EN would come and post their input as well.


Are they even members on here?

Dancing, you can call them. The gentleman I spoke to was very nice and more than willing to answer my questions.
_________________________
Shelly

Don't sacrifice quality information for convenient information.


Glider Nursery

Sugar Glider Foundation



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#1191786 - 11/14/11 01:25 PM Re: Instant HPW v.s. HPW Complete [Re: Dancing]
LiveInTheMoment Offline
Glider Slave

Registered: 02/21/11
Posts: 1280
Loc: Ohio
I wont touch complete or plus because bha/bht has caused cancer/tumors, and those are the preservatives used in complete & plus.


Edited by ProudParent (11/14/11 01:26 PM)
_________________________
Erika (AKA ProudParent) & my kids:

Suggie :grey: Rocky :bb: Killara :plat: Willoughby :grey:


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#1191791 - 11/14/11 01:33 PM Re: Instant HPW v.s. HPW Complete [Re: Dancing]
Srlb Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 10/30/03
Posts: 16745
Loc: St. Johns, Florida
Quote:
Peggy you know darn well that Reep's diet is not just "sprinkling on wambaroo". I know you well enough to know that YOU have looked at it in the past so don't take cheap shots trying to make me look bad. I am only questioning which product is better and safer. I'm trying to do so with an open mind.


Teresa, sorry to disappoint you, I really do NOT know what is even IN Reeps diet and yes, I DID think you just sprinkle the Wombaroo powder. No cheap shots intended and sorry if you read more into it than was actually there.

Quote:
HPW Complete has 54% protein


Incorrect. HPW Complete only has a 14% amount. The HPW Plus has a Crude protein of 54%, however, once it is added with the egg, honey, bee pollen that level than drops down to 14%.

Yes, in the beginning there WAS typo on my part that had the 54% on the Complete package. When it was caught there was a public notice made. That was way in the beginning of time.

As I have stated before, I have no issues with ANYONE asking questions as long as they are sincere and not just a stab. As seen, I have no issues answering here.

As for your concerns on the VitK, you are allowed your opinions and concerns, however, I have stated information straight from my Nutritionist and I trust her and the others I am working with very much so. So no matter how many times the same issue comes up, the answers will continue to be the same.

As we have always said, in the end diet is a personal choice.
_________________________
Peggy
Critter Love
Critter Love® Diet Center

If you want to know what a person is like, watch how he treats others.

You'll never know what the outcome is if you don't step up and try.


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#1191793 - 11/14/11 01:35 PM Re: Instant HPW v.s. HPW Complete [Re: Dancing]
LiveInTheMoment Offline
Glider Slave

Registered: 02/21/11
Posts: 1280
Loc: Ohio
http://www.sweetpoison.com/food-additives-to-avoid.html

BHA/BHT, why would you preserve with those? In the dog food world they have tried to get away from those preservatives due to causing cancer/tumors in dogs.
_________________________
Erika (AKA ProudParent) & my kids:

Suggie :grey: Rocky :bb: Killara :plat: Willoughby :grey:


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#1191795 - 11/14/11 01:41 PM Re: Instant HPW v.s. HPW Complete [Re: Dancing]
Srlb Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 10/30/03
Posts: 16745
Loc: St. Johns, Florida
Erika, since you posted this as a factual statement:

Quote:
I wont touch complete or plus because bha/bht has caused cancer/tumors, and those are the preservatives used in complete & plus.


Can you please show me just ONE documented veterinarian report that bha/bht has caused cancer in SUGAR GLIDERS?

If you can not, I would very much appreciate if you could refrain from posting falsehoods about my diet as if they were facts.

It is a rule here on GC and I quoted it once before let me do it again:

Quote:
If you think you have a provable reason to say something negative about another diet, then pass it by the administration before posting it. DO NOT make negative claims against a diet unless you can prove it first.
_________________________
Peggy
Critter Love
Critter Love® Diet Center

If you want to know what a person is like, watch how he treats others.

You'll never know what the outcome is if you don't step up and try.


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#1191802 - 11/14/11 01:48 PM Re: Instant HPW v.s. HPW Complete [Re: Dancing]
Marz Offline
Glider Guardian

Registered: 09/06/05
Posts: 708
Loc: Melbourne Australia
Teresa

Vitamin k3 (menadione sodium bisulfite complex) is also banned for human consumption here in Australia. As you are aware Wombaroo uses the natural form of Vitamin K even though it's the more expensive option.Surprisingly I have found this to be common with a number of high end pet food companies here in Australia. Imported or cheaper pet foods all seem to contain the synthetic Vitamin k though.

Other things you should compare though aside from Vitamin K3 are the sources of the powdered honey and pollen in both products since a huge amount of powdered honey and pollen is actually processed in China and similar countries where sadly quality control is poor. Time after time, Chinese companies have been caught adding fillers for more profit and using poor quality or suspect ingredients.

Another consideration are the actual ingredients of powdered honey. Best ratio of content I have found so far is 60% honey 40% maltodextrins. Maltodextrin is a polysaccharide (usually produced from corn or wheat starch) and is a food additive. It is basically glucose.

I used small amounts of powdered honey initially in my glider meatloaf sourced from an australian honey company. When I realised the percentage of maltodextrins in the processing, I opted out. The maltodextrins in powdered form encaspulate the honey in the spray drying process so is an important part of the whole process and can't be avoided.

All this adds more sugars to the diet and less nutrition though I have wondered what this process actually does to the final nutrition figure of the honey and whether this is taken into account in the overall analysis.

The bottom line though, since we are talking emergency short time use, either product would suffice.

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#1191803 - 11/14/11 01:48 PM Re: Instant HPW v.s. HPW Complete [Re: Dancing]
LiveInTheMoment Offline
Glider Slave

Registered: 02/21/11
Posts: 1280
Loc: Ohio
I will happily provide any information I can on the matter. Just know that if you change the vitamin k, use actual Wombaroo, and use a different preservative (like vitamin e for example)... I will be the first person in line to buy it. Believe me, I love the idea of such an easy diet, but not until its updated. I am not bashing, I am stating why I would not use it. Please don't feel I am bashing. Because I LOVE the idea. I was going to use the diet until I discovered the preservatives/vitamin k/lack of Wombaroo.

I research every diet and always consult with vets as well as other people before starting.
_________________________
Erika (AKA ProudParent) & my kids:

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#1191804 - 11/14/11 01:49 PM Re: Instant HPW v.s. HPW Complete [Re: Dancing]
Dancing Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 09/10/04
Posts: 22746
Loc: 80 acres of paradise in KS
Peggy, she didn't say HPW Plus/Complete causes tumors or cancer. She said
Quote:
it uses a synthetic vitamin k, and uses bha/bht which has caused cancer/tumors.


This is fact. It does cause cancer/tumors in humans and other animals. Whether or not it causes cancer/tumors in gliders is yet to be determined.


Marz. Thank you. I had not considered the sources of the powerded eggs, honey and bee pollen. MORE to research!


Edited by Dancing (11/14/11 01:51 PM)
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#1191825 - 11/14/11 02:28 PM Re: Instant HPW v.s. HPW Complete [Re: Dancing]
LabNGliderMom Offline
Glider Addict

Registered: 01/04/09
Posts: 3753
Loc: Florida
Originally Posted By: Dancing
It does cause cancer/tumors in humans and other animals. Whether or not it causes cancer/tumors in gliders is yet to be determined.


1. Which is why she should specify
2. Which is why Peggy asked her to provide proof that is causes cancer/tumors in sugar gliders
3. Since this forum is dedicated to the good of the glider, then why bring up what it causes in other animals?
4. Other animals are not sugar gliders. If she had said "X amount of bha/bht has been shown to cause cancer/tumors in X species... sugar gliders are not included, but I worry that it could affect them, too, so I am choosing not to use this product" that would have been different. (and more accurate)

Originally Posted By: Marz
The bottom line though, since we are talking emergency short time use, either product would suffice.


That is true for the specific question asked - but let's not forget that many people who choose to feed either diet feed it full-time - each and every day.

Originally Posted By: ProudParent
Just know that if you change the vitamin k, use actual Wombaroo, and use a different preservative (like vitamin e for example)...


I think the whole point of creating the Complete and Plus were to avoid the use of the Wombaroo in favor of something considered better by veterinarians and nutritionists.

Originally Posted By: ProudParent
I research every diet and always consult with vets as well as other people before starting.


Could you please share your veterinarian's analysis of every diet currently being fed to sugar gliders so that all of us can benefit from his or her advice to you on why we should feed whatever it is you feed and not the others? I for one would be interested in knowing why your veterinarian feels that Plus and Complete are not the best diet options on the market for sugar gliders, nutritionally speaking.

Originally Posted By: Dancing
I see so many on here putting down the Exotic Nutrition's Instant HPW but endorsing the HPW Complete. My question is why?


Reasons why are simple:

1. The point of Plus and Complete are to get away from the Wombaroo powder in favor of something that vets and nutritionists say is better for gliders nutritionally

2. Exotic Nutrition blatantly copied Peggy's name choice and manufacturing/serving idea, (and that is just morally reprehensible in my opinion)

3. We who use the Plus or Complete see the amazing results and are happy to share with anyone who will listen that our opinion is that they are (again, this is a general consensus of users but is also still an OPINION) the hands-down best sugar glider diet on the market smile

On a personal note: - The fact is that those who choose not to use the Plus or Complete diet options have their own reasons for not doing so - personal dislike of one or more ingredients, personal dislike of the diet creator, jealousy that someone other than them is doing something so good for gliders and making money by doing it, or whatever the case may be. No matter what anyone's reason, it is not okay to make false claims about a diet option or to bash (bad-mouth) any of the diet options.
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#1191828 - 11/14/11 02:30 PM Re: Instant HPW v.s. HPW Complete [Re: Dancing]
JazzNZoeysMom Offline
Glider Lover

Registered: 07/25/11
Posts: 353
Loc: TN
How in the world do you find out where companies get their ingredients from?

I'm searching the internet but am getting dizzy going round & round.

Thanks bunches for any info. you guys can offer.
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#1191832 - 11/14/11 02:32 PM Re: Instant HPW v.s. HPW Complete [Re: Dancing]
Srlb Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 10/30/03
Posts: 16745
Loc: St. Johns, Florida
Plus and Complete use Honey from the USA and the Bee Pollen is Australian Bee pollen.
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#1191833 - 11/14/11 02:37 PM Re: Instant HPW v.s. HPW Complete [Re: Dancing]
LiveInTheMoment Offline
Glider Slave

Registered: 02/21/11
Posts: 1280
Loc: Ohio
Julie, my point is that if it causes these issues in humans and other animals wouldn't it be better to err on the side of caution than to find out 20 years from now that it DOES cause cancer in sugar gliders? I personally will not take the chance and I will happily provide any information I can.

I read that they switched from Wombaroo because of the supply? Not because of nutrition, but because we cannot always keep up with supply and demand for Wombaroo. I believe that was even said on the website. Correct me if I'm wrong. And what was determined to be better than something that has proven to do well for 25 years? I am just asking, please do not take this in a rude manner because I truly would like to know.
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#1191843 - 11/14/11 02:46 PM Re: Instant HPW v.s. HPW Complete [Re: Dancing]
JillMarie Offline
Serious Glideritis

Registered: 01/03/09
Posts: 7748
Loc: New Jersey
I have tried to comment on this thread 3 times already and each time I changed my mind and didnt submit roflmao

so I will try to keep it simple:
Originally Posted By: Dancing
I see so many on here putting down the Exotic Nutrition's Instant HPW but endorsing the HPW Complete. My question is why?

I dont see people really putting down the EN one. Unless I just overlooked it.
I personally do not advice anyone to use a specific diet. It is up to each owner to decide for themselves after they research. I also do not put any diet down, due to the fact that what works for one may not work for another.
IF I was to say something negative about EN it would be that it APPEARS they are trying to cash in on the popularity of Peggy's diet. From conversations with another company, this also is not the first time they have "copy cat" a glider diet. If you look at their "Bugs and Berries" it has the same list of ingredients as Avico's yet is smells, looks, and tastes VERY different.

That's my 2 cents worth.
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#1191848 - 11/14/11 02:54 PM Re: Instant HPW v.s. HPW Complete [Re: Dancing]
hushpuppy Offline
Glider Slave

Registered: 01/31/01
Posts: 1640
Loc: Mims, Florida, USA
Peggy, TY for the links. I did go back and read all the information. Then I did a search looking for concrete information. I normally like to deal in proven info. I now know more about synthetic K3 than I ever intended to know.

It is easy to cause an online panic. It is twice as easy to create a panic in the sugar glider community. After thoroughly looking around, I don't see any hard core evidence that this stuff is a health risk to any animals. If anyone has access to solid information that K3 is bad to the bone stuff, please show it.

Until then, we all still continue to do the best we can, with the knowledge that we have, but it needs to be good scientific knowledge and not speculation or internet/glider panic.

For some odd reason we still have 2,3,4,5...year old gliders leaving this world far too soon and many of them pass with liver problems. Hopefully some day we will know the answers.

Hey, lets start different posts about the protein, preservatives, honey issues. I would love see more information on them but this post is becoming way too cloudy and off topic.
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#1191849 - 11/14/11 02:55 PM Re: Instant HPW v.s. HPW Complete [Re: Dancing]
JazzNZoeysMom Offline
Glider Lover

Registered: 07/25/11
Posts: 353
Loc: TN
I agree with you JillMarie but I personally don't take that as a negative thing. Afterall, if no one copy catted we'd only have one type of automobile, pizza, cell phone, ect.

While one may say copy-cat, another says "offering a choice." Just my opinion.
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#1191896 - 11/14/11 04:18 PM Re: Instant HPW v.s. HPW Complete [Re: Dancing]
Dancing Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 09/10/04
Posts: 22746
Loc: 80 acres of paradise in KS
Quote:

1. The point of Plus and Complete are to get away from the Wombaroo powder in favor of something that vets and nutritionists say is better for gliders nutritionally


My understanding from Peggy's site is that the reason was NOT "better nutrition" but easier availability since it is manufactured in the US and not imported from Australia.

I question the "better nutrition" part because of the use of synthetic ingredients.

How often do we tell people to "be on the safe side" of things concerning our gliders? We all know there is limited research done on gliders compared to other animals or humans. So we have to make "educated guesses" with what we do and feed our gliders. We do it with onions, garlic and raw lima beans. Does anyone KNOW these things are toxic to gliders? Where's the scientific proof for those? See my point?

I don't see anyone making false claims or bad mouthing any diet, other than Peggy's claim that Reep's is simply sprinkling on wambaroo. What I do see questions concerning ingredients.

If we never questioned and just went on faith...we'd all be feeding out gliders low quality cat food.
_________________________
620-704-9109
Judge not until you have walked in their shoes and lived their lives. What you see online is only part of the story.

I could have missed the pain
But I'd of had to miss the dance


The soul would have no rainbow if the eyes had no tears.

Top
#1191902 - 11/14/11 04:40 PM Re: Instant HPW v.s. HPW Complete [Re: Dancing]
LiveInTheMoment Offline
Glider Slave

Registered: 02/21/11
Posts: 1280
Loc: Ohio
Originally Posted By: Dancing
Quote:

1. The point of Plus and Complete are to get away from the Wombaroo powder in favor of something that vets and nutritionists say is better for gliders nutritionally


My understanding from Peggy's site is that the reason was NOT "better nutrition" but easier availability since it is manufactured in the US and not imported from Australia.

I question the "better nutrition" part because of the use of synthetic ingredients.

How often do we tell people to "be on the safe side" of things concerning our gliders? We all know there is limited research done on gliders compared to other animals or humans. So we have to make "educated guesses" with what we do and feed our gliders. We do it with onions, garlic and raw lima beans. Does anyone KNOW these things are toxic to gliders? Where's the scientific proof for those? See my point?

I don't see anyone making false claims or bad mouthing any diet, other than Peggy's claim that Reep's is simply sprinkling on wambaroo. What I do see questions concerning ingredients.

If we never questioned and just went on faith...we'd all be feeding out gliders low quality cat food.



clap I was never trying to bad mouth. I was just stating my concerns about it.


Edited by ProudParent (11/14/11 04:41 PM)
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