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#1217704 - 01/17/12 01:48 PM Why do gliders self mutilate?
weyrsinger Offline
Glider Lover

Registered: 06/17/11
Posts: 373
Loc: NY
I know the immediate causes- stress, an injury, etc. But I've been thinking about why they would do that, from an evolutionary or psychological perspective? From what I've read here and there, SM could be like why some humans hurt themselves- if you're lonely or depressed it (bizarrely) can have a short term relaxing effect. So to me that explains why they SM if they're all alone or depressed. But I can't figure out why gliders would hurt themselves when they're already injured. Anyone know if they do that in the wild? Because if so that would have obvious negative effects evolutionarily speaking; if not then what about living in captivity drives them to that? I think science hasn't even answered these questions yet, but maybe someone out there has done more research than I have!
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#1217712 - 01/17/12 02:10 PM Re: Why do gliders self mutilate? [Re: weyrsinger]
Dwiizie Offline
Glider Guardian

Registered: 05/09/11
Posts: 832
Loc: Richmond, VA
I think I understand your reference to humans and "cutting" type behaviors. I've thought of that relationship many times before. Also of the one with "hair pullers" that pluck their own hair out. I could Google the official names for these two behaviors, but I'm slackin' on my research gene today. Some people do "SM" as a result of perfectionism, overgrooming. Anyone see Black Swan? Just thinking of her scrubbing her nails, cutting them to the quick, pulling hang nails till they bled *shiver*. I wish not to offend, but you could even go as far as to say some plastic surgery that we see looks like "neurotic vanity" compulsion to "fix" what ain't broke... I also think that often SM in humans is linked to an element of control. Feelings of helplessness on the outside, making physical pain to match internal pain gives them control over their own pain, rather than always being helpless against pain caused by "outside things"

As for hurting themselves while already injured: If I'm thinking like a human, the first thing I think of is a hang nail. What do we (some of us) do? Chew it maybe? Peel it off? What if it peels to far and hurts and bleeds? Are you chewing at it the next day too? Same for split lips, or picking scabs, or popping zits KNOWING we should let them run their course and popping them is trauma to the skin and risks spread of acne to surrounding areas of the pop. Any of those "self grooming" things we do when we're "hurt" Even so much as poke bruises to see if they still hurt, prod aching teeth and suck air through cavities. Maybe they're always picking scabs....

And maybe someone more familiar with "glider psychology" can chime in on this one, these are just observations and linking them up to human behaviors. Interesting topic. I like this kind of thought chain.
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#1217729 - 01/17/12 02:59 PM Re: Why do gliders self mutilate? [Re: weyrsinger]
suggiemom1980 Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 03/05/07
Posts: 13746
Loc: Vincennes, IN, USA
What I've been told is gliders don't understand where the source of pain is coming from and attack the pain, trying to stop it. The more it hurts, the more they attack. They don't realize they're the one making it worse.
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#1217731 - 01/17/12 03:03 PM Re: Why do gliders self mutilate? [Re: weyrsinger]
Dancing Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 09/10/04
Posts: 22746
Loc: 80 acres of paradise in KS
I have to say, in the 11 plus years I've had gliders and the years I did rescue work, I've NEVER seen a glider self mutilate due to loneliness or depression. I don't think self mutilation is at all like humans "cutting".

I have seen them over groom excessively and I suppose the over grooming could get to the point where it causes sores and possible infection which could then lead to self mutilation. I just have never seen it myself.

As to why they chew when they are injured...it is believed that when they are in pain, they rationalize that they are being attacked so they attack back. Since there is no one or nothing there but themselves causing the wound, they attack themselves (usually at the site of the pain but not always).

Most often when we have a glider that is self mutilating, there IS a reason. Either illness or injury. Cloacial sm'ers could be reacting to hormones. Or trauma the males cause "flossing". Or nerve damage. Or...well, there is a very long list of possibles. There is almost always a medical reason for self mutilation. Sometimes that reason is impossible for us to find (or almost impossible).


Edited by Dancing (01/17/12 03:06 PM)
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#1217735 - 01/17/12 03:19 PM Re: Why do gliders self mutilate? [Re: weyrsinger]
JillMarie Offline
Serious Glideritis

Registered: 01/03/09
Posts: 7748
Loc: New Jersey
Interesting subject. Would love to hear more opinions on this. Keeping mine to my self for now smile
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#1217736 - 01/17/12 03:19 PM Re: Why do gliders self mutilate? [Re: weyrsinger]
tefi143 Offline
Glider Explorer

Registered: 12/27/11
Posts: 253
Loc: Texas
My none scientific explanation is that they are OCD...

Assuming nothing itches, no allergies...etc...

I think its like you said..once they start picking at something they cant stop

But I also wonder if they do this in the wild. I very often wonder if although I am very loving and caring towards my glider if the fact that they are in a cage triggers something in the brain that makes them lose it

I am also interested what others have to say smile
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#1217745 - 01/17/12 03:57 PM Re: Why do gliders self mutilate? [Re: weyrsinger]
Dwiizie Offline
Glider Guardian

Registered: 05/09/11
Posts: 832
Loc: Richmond, VA
Yeah, I think behavior in the wild would be an interesting thing to think of. Is there something about living in captivity that makes them more prone to SM or is it just a part of the "glider condition"...

Its an interesting thought that they just "attack the pain" where did that thought train originate?

I think we've all heard stories and things of animals (and humans too...what was that movie based on real life? ... Aron Ralston was the guy, 127 hours is the movie) getting stuck in traps and removing the trapped body part to preserve themselves. But SM to the point of death doesn't seem to serve that cause at all.

If a glider senses a strong wound or perhaps even that a wound is fatal, is it perhaps a form of suicide to hasten death, or prevent being picked off by predators (I'd so much rather kill myself than wait for a buzzard to eat me alive.) And theres that whole thing where they eat a dead colony member to avoid attracting predators to the nest, is it maybe along the same "glider psych" lines as that mechanism?
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#1217747 - 01/17/12 04:01 PM Re: Why do gliders self mutilate? [Re: weyrsinger]
IndieAndStella Offline
Glider Lover

Registered: 12/23/11
Posts: 573
Loc: New York
very interesting topic! '

i work with special needs kids, and i have one lovely little girl who is a sweetheart, but self inflicts pain whenever she gets upset...and it can be about the littlest thing or a major event, doesnt make a difference in the end result. ive heard cases where kids with similar disabilities bite themselves to the point of drawing blood, hit themselves, throw their bodies against a hard surface, slamming their heads on the floor...its very sad, and so hard to understand what exactly is going on in their little minds! one thing i have observed though, is that the more pain she causes herself, the calmer she gets. when you stop her, thats when she gets more upset and tries to inflict even more damage to herself.

unfortunately, i think its more of a control thing, and im not 100% sure she actually FEELS the pain she is causing herself. have you ever been so frustrated you LITERALLY want to pull your hair out? you stick your fingers through your hair, make fists and scream...ive done it when my boss is being especially moody, lol. tug on my hair normally and it can be painful, but in this situation i dont feel it - its just a way to get my stress out! now this is a minor example (i dont pull my hair out or anything), but i think with the suggies...maybe they arent necessarily feeling the pain, but rather its a way to get out their anger and frustration or stress from not being able to use or fix whats broken?

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#1217774 - 01/17/12 05:34 PM Re: Why do gliders self mutilate? [Re: weyrsinger]
Bourbon Offline
Serious Glideritis

Registered: 04/01/99
Posts: 5333
Loc: Bee-Bopping round SnakePit USA
I am going to assume you are asking about the cloachea self mutilators, the ones that go after their stomach, private parts chests etc.. without injury sites..

as Dancing stated it is a serious misconception that gliders self mutilate due to loneliness or depression and when I see this is is always a sure thing an old website was found or people are still passing out the old misconception. I never believed it was due to being alone or depressed..

in all the years I have worked with SMs there always SEEMS to be a problem causing it.. years ago there were far more than there is now, but still not enough to be able to do some really good research on. the only true SM's that I know is still alive and still having to wear a protection.. collar or jacket is spencer..

10 years ago all SM's died.. now we have early warning signs, we have a series of medications and treatments and after 30 days many of them are out of the collar no longer cyclic..

on the ones we call "true" sm's... all of their tests results come back negative. nothing is found with normal means of testing.

luckily we haven't had many of those in the recent years.. Gliders like Spencer, and Bo had many episodes of attacking themselves, although we lost bo.. we still have spencer, and we never give up hope on him. but with spencer I think the cause has been long gone, and the after affects still linger, I believe in my heart in his case it is not pain, but a tingling sensation from nerve damage from his previous attacks.

there have been issues found with extensive surgery's and owners never giving up.. for example travis, chloe... one of them had a separation of the bowel and the rectum I can't remember what the other was, but it also was a medical issue that required surgery.. but the causes were found. some had issues with their anal glans and they had to be removed..many of the sm's in the past have responded well to the treatments and meds..

seeing that all SM's are neutered their line is not continued.. so could it have been a specific genetic defect that was being passed.. sure.. but in spite of the numbers of gliders growing at an extreme rate.. we are not seeing the issues we did in the past. so we are hoping that in the next 5 years, it will be non existent.

so if more and more people would get the right information out there. there would less fear about the depression and loneliness thing..

as for the "hair pulling" I don't think it is actually pulling but a rubbing thing.. hair loss behind the eyes and on the tip of the tail is usually caused by stress or diet.. I got a glider in that i was told was pulling her hair and it was believed it was stress related... what I found is that it was from the cage bars.. feeding a glider through the bars and them pushing and rubbing their face on them will also cause these issues..
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#1217785 - 01/17/12 05:57 PM Re: Why do gliders self mutilate? [Re: weyrsinger]
TinaPa Offline
Glider Lover

Registered: 11/15/11
Posts: 552
Loc: Connecticut
Honestly, this thread definitely shined some light on the topic as I didn't really understand sm until now!
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#1217794 - 01/17/12 06:18 PM Re: Why do gliders self mutilate? [Re: weyrsinger]
Cora Offline
Serious Glideritis

Registered: 04/16/05
Posts: 6574
Loc: Kilgore, Texas
Spencer sure wishes someone would figure it out!
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#1217830 - 01/17/12 07:23 PM Re: Why do gliders self mutilate? [Re: Cora]
Bourbon Offline
Serious Glideritis

Registered: 04/01/99
Posts: 5333
Loc: Bee-Bopping round SnakePit USA
we are trying Cora.. you know that.. every time we come up with a new test a new drug a new procedure.. you are always the first to know.. and spencer has been such a sport about it...


for others out there... if you look at it as lets say a serious headache, that normal drugs, can't cure.. there could be many many many reasons for it.
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#1218010 - 01/17/12 10:50 PM Re: Why do gliders self mutilate? [Re: weyrsinger]
weyrsinger Offline
Glider Lover

Registered: 06/17/11
Posts: 373
Loc: NY
Wow, thanks for the info, Bourbon! And everyone else has really interesting thoughts on the topic. smile Like Bourbon said, I wish there was more research out there on gliders...I have never really owned a pet before my suggies, but owning gliders as opposed to dogs or cats, I imagine we are all pioneers in a way. A lot of things are still being worked out whereas with more common pets everything is much more established.

To clarify, Bourbon, I'm curious about all cases. In the cases you mentioned where there was some injury provoking the SM, why is that a reaction that they have? It seems counter-productive from an evolutionary perspective that any animal would attack itself when injured. For example, if an animal in the wild has a mating wound and begins to self-mutilate, it drastically increases the chances that it will die! And if SM causes would-be mothers to die that definitely isn't good for the species. If the behavior of self-mutilating were genetic and it caused gliders to die before reproducing, it would eventually be bred out and disappear. So I'm having trouble wrapping my mind around why it even exists. I guess in captivity SM can potentially be helpful, as it helps us humans realize something is wrong that we otherwise might not have noticed, but if that were true then instances of SM in captivity would probably slowly increase rather than quickly decreasing. So I dunno...probably any answers we have right now are just speculation but...Speculate away!

And anyway, glad to hear that cases of SM have decreased so much so quickly!
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#1218031 - 01/18/12 12:05 AM Re: Why do gliders self mutilate? [Re: weyrsinger]
Dancing Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 09/10/04
Posts: 22746
Loc: 80 acres of paradise in KS
Bourbon, Riker is still "watched" and is always at risk too but so far, he's been a good boy!
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I could have missed the pain
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#1218043 - 01/18/12 12:27 AM Re: Why do gliders self mutilate? [Re: weyrsinger]
Bourbon Offline
Serious Glideritis

Registered: 04/01/99
Posts: 5333
Loc: Bee-Bopping round SnakePit USA
interesting enough that if you look at how many people save rejected joeys without knowing whether or not there is a medical issue that moms can sense long before us.. and this is something I am not sure that is happening across the board. more studies, necropsies and records need to be kept on rejected joeys than what currently is. Just as humans, there are many illnesses and birth defects that can be found as one gets older that can not be seen or noticed at birth... how wonderful would it be to be able to detect if a person is more prone to cancer or diabetes if it could always be detected at birth..

there is just not enough medical info known and the gliders haven't been in the states long enough to have the vast amount of knowledge needed.

as for why they would mutilate upon injury.. that is something that is very common in the animal kingdom, and with Gliders being aboral, in the wild there just isn't enough info to say they don't do it in the wild, as the remains would be eaten by other animals.. after all they aren't much bigger than a sandwich..

I am not in agreement that this is seen more in captivity due to cage restrictions etc.. more that it is seen more in captivity because we have the ability to keep a visual on our gliders, on a regular basis, and we are more in tune with their illnesses.

I also am not in agreement that the self mutilation is anything like the "cutters" of the human race.. in humans we make conscience decisions.. whereas the gliders do not per sae make the decision to go after themselves because their feelings are hurt or because they feel belittled or demeaned.

humans who cut themselves do so to hide the pain they feel internally and they are externalizing the pain. Gliders don't do that.

If a glider is going to go after something that is causing them pain or a sensation they are not familiar with.. they are trying to remove the pain or feeling..

gliders are very simple in their thought process, they do not have ridges in their brain therefore; can not as I was told... debate the abortion issue, they live their lives as creatures of habit, when the norm is not right, they react accordingly.

this is why when their environment changes they stress, or when the dynamics of their cage changes they stress.. but I have never seen a case of a glider in all the years I have worked with SM, self mutilate due to stress or loneliness.. there is always an underlying cause.. as was said earlier.. sometime we just can't find the cause.
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#1218469 - 01/19/12 02:48 AM Re: Why do gliders self mutilate? [Re: weyrsinger]
eshaw Offline
Glider Lover

Registered: 02/11/11
Posts: 593
Loc: Iowa
I think that the underlying issue with SM is due to mental illness. Whether it's brought about by physical means such as nerve damage is still conjecture but it is plausible. It could also be due in some cases to possible genetic difficiencies we aren't aware of and this is one way it manifests itself. In the wild I don't really think this is an issue unless an animal becomes trapped (not stress but distress), then it will SM to free itself for example, or it has a wound that won't heal it will gnaw at it.


Edited by eshaw (01/19/12 02:59 AM)

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#1218598 - 01/19/12 12:27 PM Re: Why do gliders self mutilate? [Re: weyrsinger]
Bourbon Offline
Serious Glideritis

Registered: 04/01/99
Posts: 5333
Loc: Bee-Bopping round SnakePit USA
Quote:
I think that the underlying issue with SM is due to mental illness
explain further I would love to hear why you think this.. is this just speculation? or is there a reason you think this?

I work with the worst of the worst behavioral gliders, that also includes gliders with neurological damage as well as gliders that are obviously bi-polar and never in any of those gliders has there been SM.. please I would love to hear more.
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#1218603 - 01/19/12 12:39 PM Re: Why do gliders self mutilate? [Re: weyrsinger]
Dwiizie Offline
Glider Guardian

Registered: 05/09/11
Posts: 832
Loc: Richmond, VA
Obviously, I'll let eshaw speak for his/herself as to what the meant. But I took this to mean that SM behavior is a mental illness in itself, brought on by any number of reasons. You mentioned many reasons, we've speculated at others. Maybe I'm wrong, thats just how I took it. Maybe we're still thinking with human brains and human psychology (and we're still in the baby stages understanding those things in our own species, let alone gliders.) In human psychology, if someone is hurting themselves, self injuring, whether consciously or as a compulsive behavior, they're considered to have mental illnesses, even if the mental illness stems from other things. Just as I can display symptoms of depression, anxiety, etc, and it IS treated by mental health professionals, BUT I also have an underactive thyroid, the accepted cause of my mental difficulties, and my thyroid is treated by an endocrinologist. So I'm treating the underlying physical problem, treating/coping with the mental side effects of my condition as well. Dermatillomania: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dermatillomania "Dermatillomania (also known as neurotic excoriation, pathologic skin picking (PSP), compulsive skin picking (CSP) or psychogenic excoriation[1][2]) is an impulse control disorder characterized by the repeated urge to pick at one's own skin, often to the extent that damage is caused. Research has suggested that the urge to pick is similar to an obsessive compulsive disorder but others have argued that for some the condition is more akin to substance abuse disorder. The two main strategies for treating this condition are pharmacological and behavioral intervention." That is not the same as the type of person that "cuts" as a result of a completely different mental system.
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#1218711 - 01/19/12 04:51 PM Re: Why do gliders self mutilate? [Re: Dwiizie]
Bourbon Offline
Serious Glideritis

Registered: 04/01/99
Posts: 5333
Loc: Bee-Bopping round SnakePit USA
there are some people that do believe in whatever fashion one wants to call a mental disorder..
and with that belief comes the misinformation that is spread from person to person, then from person to vets, then from vets to vets. This is the way of the information network online, and with new exotics of misinformed vets.


personally the way you had just explained it.. you may as well say that everyone here, there and everywhere has a medical disorder because we feel things.. anxiety fear rage, love, hate, pain pleasure, sensations.. that is far to broad of an explanation..

that is almost like saying if I am in extreme pain, that if I cry it would be a mental illness.

For the last 12 years that I have worked with SM's, there is NOTHING that suggest that this is a mental disorder, psychological disorder.. or anything else that would require mental health medications.

My brother has RSD caused from a simple injury years ago.. many many doctors told him it was all in his head, tried many mental health drugs and techniques.. he lost his job, his family.. and his whole life turned upside down, till a neurologist took him under wing and worked different angels.. then they started , with pain blockers, after going 6 years with such extreme pain, that it was debilitating.. they finally found an electronic device that was inserted in his arm, that interrupted the signals that was going from the injury site to his brain. now medically they couldn't find anything wrong, the injury was years before the pain started and it was easy to say mental illness when doctors couldn't understand or believe what was truly happening.

I don't take the words mental illness lightly, and definitely where the SM gliders are concerned. too many vets just pass off things as mental illness when they "can't find anything wrong" but in the cases of cleo and travis, they required specialist who was willing to try things that have never been tried before.

now on the other end of the coin, if there is ANY evidence that the SM's is a mental disorder, I surely would love to hear it.. I would love to know that there are treatment options that we haven't tried yet..

side note: This is an area that I have dedicated many many years to, and have worked with many vets, many owners and many SM gliders. but at the same time, those of us that work with them would love to have more information if anyone has it, we have already spent years of speculating and theorizing and trying change the misinformation that is being spread.. and only in the last 5 years have we been able to get treatments that actually work.
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#1218716 - 01/19/12 05:19 PM Re: Why do gliders self mutilate? [Re: weyrsinger]
Dancing Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 09/10/04
Posts: 22746
Loc: 80 acres of paradise in KS
I had all my teeth pulled. Why? Because they hurt ALL THE TIME! After many many visits to the dentist and getting to the point that the dentist had nothing left he could do (no fillings, root canals, etc) and my teeth all still hurt horribly, I suggested just having them pulled. The dentist's reply was (and he was the CHIEF dentist at the VA dental clinic) "You obviously have deep seated emotional problems (mental illness) stemming from your childhood and you are taking it out on your teeth."

WHAT?

Umm...NO...

The problems I had with my teeth did come from my childhood. See, I grew up with orange trees and lemon trees right in my back yard. I LOVE oranges and lemons. Always have. So as a kid, when I got home from school, instead of cookies for a snack, I ate oranges and/or lemons. The acid in the fruit ate the enamel off my teeth leaving the nerves exposed enough that anything even remotely sweet (such as an apple) would send me through the roof! There WAS a cause, a reason my teeth were so incredibly sensitive and painful. But the dentist would not address the issue (sealants might have saved my teeth) and I was left with the only option of having them all pulled.

I see what Bourbon is saying about how damaging it could be to say that SM'ing is caused by mental illness. Just as my teeth pain was caused by "mental illness". UMMM...NOPE!
If the vets get the idea it is ok to just diagnose it as "mental illness" then the root of the problem won't ever be discovered and gliders will continue to suffer. Granted the individual glider might benefit from "mental illness medication" to make them NOT CARE that they are in pain, but it doesn't STOP the pain. It doesn't cure the problem.
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Judge not until you have walked in their shoes and lived their lives. What you see online is only part of the story.

I could have missed the pain
But I'd of had to miss the dance


The soul would have no rainbow if the eyes had no tears.

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#1218719 - 01/19/12 05:30 PM Re: Why do gliders self mutilate? [Re: weyrsinger]
SugarBabiesAZ Offline
Glider Explorer

Registered: 05/13/10
Posts: 192
Loc: Chandler, AZ
I agree whole heartedly!! I have been dealing with Malibu for about 6 months. She has been in her E collar for six weeks (the time it took her arm to heal) and I took her out Sunday the first thing she did was go after herself again. Now in 10 min she opened up a raw spot on her Patagium. She is going back to the vet tomorrow but has now had to stay in the E Collar to help her from doing it.

I don't believe its anything "mental", I swear I almost believe she has allergies or something like that. But she will continue to scratch and groom herself until she's raw.
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#1218728 - 01/19/12 07:09 PM Re: Why do gliders self mutilate? [Re: weyrsinger]
Bourbon Offline
Serious Glideritis

Registered: 04/01/99
Posts: 5333
Loc: Bee-Bopping round SnakePit USA
I want to apologize to everyone who is not personally involved with SM's.. I have to remember sometimes that the curiosity may although be well meaning.. and the passing of outdated info may be the only info you have..but the SM's to me are different.. it is not just a "problem".. it is many many gliders that have been put down due to this info.. currently there is a thread going on right now in health and hygiene... the first vet.. wanted to put the glider down .. why??? the problem isn't bad enough to even fathom that thought. All resources have not be exhausted yet.. there is so many things that can be done. The needless deaths of many gliders the agonizing tasks of the never ending search that there is something we are missing. having to keep a glider alive that is a SM'er just so we can find treatments and cures. (Not spencer.. I am thinking of my Casper). Casper was Kept alive far too long, he was in constant pain, he cried and screamed all the time.. but we had to keep trying, we had to find something to help the others as well as him.. we lost him, but it wasn't in vain.. we did find a medical combination regiment, that we use that does not include pain meds, it does not include mental health meds , but treats something we couldn't find. for that I lost the trust of those that believed in me, for that I lost my respect, and for that I lost a huge part of myself, that I have to live with every day of my life.

but at the same time, the upsides to the downsides of all the years of work, is that we do have fewer SM's, we do have a starting point, we do have hope for all the gliders in the future.

Just as my brother.. I guess sometimes we have to lose everything, our trust, our respect, a bit of ourselves.. before we find the hope that will save many others after the fact.
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#1218747 - 01/19/12 07:41 PM Re: Why do gliders self mutilate? [Re: Bourbon]
sitkasmom Offline
Glider Addict

Registered: 09/27/11
Posts: 3039
Loc: Finally in the Mountains!
I have some questions about the SM. I hope no one gets offended. These are just some thoughts I had and was wondering about...

Is there any pattern to SM's that you know of? Such as: Most common... prominent sex, average age, what time of year or moon phase it begins, Upbringing/home life(abused, mistreated, malnourished at all in their life),adopted/grown up the owner, most common part of the country?

Gliders are not humans, and I know we shouldnt be trying to make them so by coming up with "human" issues that might be a reason for SM.

However, animals are known to suffer some of the same issues as humans.

I was just wondering if there is a possibility that some of these conditions have been looked at? Such as arthritis? That can happen in young humans? What about fybromyalgia (sp)? How about nerve disorders (I know someone who has "pinched nerves" that cause her pain right out of the blue? Nerves can even cause tingly sensations like spiders or bugs crawling on your skin?
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#1218780 - 01/19/12 08:05 PM Re: Why do gliders self mutilate? [Re: sitkasmom]
Bourbon Offline
Serious Glideritis

Registered: 04/01/99
Posts: 5333
Loc: Bee-Bopping round SnakePit USA
we had a huge questionnaire that we would have people fill out that covered everything.. the commonalities although they were common among the sm's were also commonalities that was also shared by many many many other gliders..

almost all of them were handpulled/rejected or petshop gliders

all of them were in galvanized cages

all of them were between the ages of 9 months and 2 years upon initial onset (assumption being puberty)

all of them being cyclic every 3 months repeating behaviors

all of them gave a warning sound unlike any that most have ever heard. up to 2 weeks in advance. This particular sound is only heard by clochea SM's..

as I said earlier.. although common, cages and being handpulled and rejected.. can not be used as a definitive.. or even consider them high risk.

however I do think that all rejected joeys should be classified as a high risk glider only because it is virtually unknown if there are any future problems,.

other than that diet was varied, toys were varied, wheels were varied, the time of year was varied.. and the males were neutered pom off, and the females were placed in non breeding cages. so there was no offspring to track

some had cage mates, some didn't. some were males, some were females.
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