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#1237175 - 03/08/12 09:37 PM Tritrichomonas/Tri Trichs
GliderNursery Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 09/14/07
Posts: 20049
Loc: North Central Ohio
What is it, and can it be cured?
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#1237208 - 03/08/12 10:08 PM Re: Tritrichomonas/Tri Trichs [Re: GliderNursery]
tjlong Offline
Glider Slave

Registered: 09/25/09
Posts: 1710
Loc: Washington
It's a flagellate like giardia. It doesn't have eggs, it replicates itself. It lives in the gut and can be seen on a direct fecal smear but it isn't easy to find/see.
It can be treated with metronidazole but sometimes needs a second type treatment to produce a clean fecal smear. Can it be treated? Yes. Do we get rid of it completely? We don't know at this point. Just like we don't always get rid of giardia, we reduce the amount so we can't see it on tests anymore.

We don't know which strain our gliders get. We believe it is not the t. Foetus strain. A PCR test for tritrich will most likely come up negative because that above mentioned strain is the most commonly found strain an is therefore the one tested for.

This is all info pertinent to sugar gliders.

In some other animals it can be cured. In others it is an STD, like in cattle. With cattle a bull, once infected, is never cured. In cows it usually clears after a calf that was from the infected bull is aborted. In rodents it is I curable and is passed to offspring.

It can be mistaken for giardia to the untrained eye. However, the two have very different movements if observed under a scope.


Edited by tjlong (03/08/12 10:11 PM)
_________________________
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Tracy
(425) 789-7753
Acres of Sugar

:rtmo: Slave to Several Adorable Gliders :wfb:
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#1237220 - 03/08/12 10:22 PM Re: Tritrichomonas/Tri Trichs [Re: GliderNursery]
GliderNursery Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 09/14/07
Posts: 20049
Loc: North Central Ohio
Thank you Tracy.

Does anyone know how a glider gets it?

What are the symptoms?
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Shelly

Don't sacrifice quality information for convenient information.


Glider Nursery

Sugar Glider Foundation



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#1237223 - 03/08/12 10:28 PM Re: Tritrichomonas/Tri Trichs [Re: GliderNursery]
Cora Offline
Serious Glideritis

Registered: 04/16/05
Posts: 6573
Loc: Kilgore, Texas
This looks like the pic a vet drew for someone with a glider with TT
3rd one from the left on top row, but several pics look like it
https://www.google.com/search?q=tritrich...152&bih=608
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#1237236 - 03/08/12 10:53 PM Re: Tritrichomonas/Tri Trichs [Re: GliderNursery]
kitsune Offline
Glider Slave

Registered: 10/18/03
Posts: 1889
Loc: Springfield/Eugene, OR
I've heard a few random things about it, one is that a symptom is diarrhea. I've heard that it mostly comes from barn cats that have access to bovine. I also did a search and found that it's common in pigeons and some other wild birds.
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mlove Glide free :rbridge: :bb: Dimitri and Tegan :wfb: :rbridge: and right-side up! mlove

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#1237239 - 03/08/12 11:04 PM Re: Tritrichomonas/Tri Trichs [Re: GliderNursery]
tjlong Offline
Glider Slave

Registered: 09/25/09
Posts: 1710
Loc: Washington
We don't know how gliders get it. The pic Cora linked is of the t. Foetus strain. Again, our gliders do not show positive for this strain. Cats get that strain and in some cases in cats after a 2 year period, it is no longer detected. No one has data on gliders. I have been told it can be treated and cured in birds.

Yes, sometimes diarrhea is a symptom. However, like giardia, it can be there and there can be no symptoms to warn you. We just don't know enough about it yet. I believe that weight loss or low weight could be a symptom. I also know once it is in the body of a glider it can give off a byproduct that effects the ph balance of the gut of the host in such a way that it can grow there better. I know probiotics help put the gut flora back. That being said, a probiotic will not cure it or get rid of it completely. I also know that other things like staph or strep can start to show up in gliders who are effected. Which came first? The tric or the other issues? We don't know. There are people who believe in both theories.
_________________________
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Tracy
(425) 789-7753
Acres of Sugar

:rtmo: Slave to Several Adorable Gliders :wfb:
~~~~~ :cream: :grey: :leu: :bb: ~~~~~
Sugar Glider Genetic Project





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#1237262 - 03/09/12 12:48 AM Re: Tritrichomonas/Tri Trichs [Re: GliderNursery]
Dancing Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 09/10/04
Posts: 22746
Loc: 80 acres of paradise in KS
Can you please share the documentation that shows how this is effecting gliders?

Such as "I also know that other things like staph or strep can start to show up in gliders who are effected."

Can you share the documentation that verifies this?

IS this what the "ick" is the joeys have had? Has the tri-trich been proven in these joeys diagnosed with staph and strep?
_________________________
620-704-9109
Judge not until you have walked in their shoes and lived their lives. What you see online is only part of the story.

I could have missed the pain
But I'd of had to miss the dance


The soul would have no rainbow if the eyes had no tears.

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#1237290 - 03/09/12 06:18 AM Re: Tritrichomonas/Tri Trichs [Re: Dancing]
tjlong Offline
Glider Slave

Registered: 09/25/09
Posts: 1710
Loc: Washington
Originally Posted By: Dancing
Can you please share the documentation that shows how this is effecting gliders?

Such as "I also know that other things like staph or strep can start to show up in gliders who are effected."

Can you share the documentation that verifies this?

IS this what the "ick" is the joeys have had? Has the tri-trich been proven in these joeys diagnosed with staph and strep?

There is no documentation. There haven't been enough cases. Some vets believe staph or strep or yeast in a glider could be primary issue and then, because there is a compromised immune system, trich takes hold as well. Some believe trich is primary and the other things secondary.
No one can say definitively what the cause of 'ick' joeys is at this point.
As I have stated, there is info on trich in other animals, not much is known about it in sugar gliders to date.
_________________________
Regards,
Tracy
(425) 789-7753
Acres of Sugar

:rtmo: Slave to Several Adorable Gliders :wfb:
~~~~~ :cream: :grey: :leu: :bb: ~~~~~
Sugar Glider Genetic Project





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#1237379 - 03/09/12 10:50 AM Re: Tritrichomonas/Tri Trichs [Re: GliderNursery]
mary h Offline
Glider Lover

Registered: 08/06/02
Posts: 385
Loc: Wallis, Texas
...when effected with this...the cage and EVERYTHING in it should be washed daily. Feed fruits and veggies that have been frozen solid before feeding.

I have been reading these threads and I have a word of advise...there are a lot of us out here who know some about this...but none of us know it all. I think it's wonderfull that they care and want to help...but they are not vets...and sometimes we get opinions that are apposing. The owner of the glider is already scared and worried...and in hearing all of this only makes it worse...which effects the glider. there are cases in years past where this has been cured.

So...find you a vet who knows about this and what to do...and go with what he tells you to do...and do exactly what he tells you to do.

The glider goes on senses and smell...if you are scared...the glider is scared...the glider doesn't need that.If you stay calm and believe in your baby it helps it to fight this.

I think it's wonderfull for people to get on here and help others and I don't mean to offend anyone...but please stop fighting over what it is...what caused it...where it came from and let a good vet handle it. If your vet wants to confer with another vet...Dr. Fronefield would be more that happy to help.

Mary
_________________________
mary h

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#1237396 - 03/09/12 11:15 AM Re: Tritrichomonas/Tri Trichs [Re: GliderNursery]
Dancing Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 09/10/04
Posts: 22746
Loc: 80 acres of paradise in KS
Again...Has the tri-trich been proven in these joeys diagnosed with staph and strep?
_________________________
620-704-9109
Judge not until you have walked in their shoes and lived their lives. What you see online is only part of the story.

I could have missed the pain
But I'd of had to miss the dance


The soul would have no rainbow if the eyes had no tears.

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#1237408 - 03/09/12 11:44 AM Re: Tritrichomonas/Tri Trichs [Re: Dancing]
tjlong Offline
Glider Slave

Registered: 09/25/09
Posts: 1710
Loc: Washington
Originally Posted By: Dancing
Again...Has the tri-trich been proven in these joeys diagnosed with staph and strep?

Yes, MY glider was diagnoses with Group G Beta Hemolytic Strep s.canis. She is the ONLY glider in my home that has been diagnosed with trich as well. She is just over one year old.

The reason I tested her for anything was that two of the males I tried to pair her with (the only two who were mature or maturing) developed necrosis of the penis. I had a culture and sensitivity done on a cloacal swab and found strep. After that, knowing that it can be a secondary infection or could be a primary causing the body to be open to secondary infections, I did fecal smears with two different vets at two different locations and tric was found on a wet mount.

As for the ick joeys who have had staph and strep. I can only refer back to the attending vets and the lab results that we have been told about.

I am not telling anyone things to try to scare them. I am living it as well. Also, the first line of defense med is metronidazole. If that does not work, I have been told there are 2 alternatives that should be tried. The Strep is a different situation, it has a different antibiotic required. I also can say that, in my own personal experience, a change in diet and addition of probiotics has diminished the number of trich in the gut as the gut flora is replenished and closer to the way it should be.
_________________________
Regards,
Tracy
(425) 789-7753
Acres of Sugar

:rtmo: Slave to Several Adorable Gliders :wfb:
~~~~~ :cream: :grey: :leu: :bb: ~~~~~
Sugar Glider Genetic Project





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#1237410 - 03/09/12 11:51 AM Re: Tritrichomonas/Tri Trichs [Re: tjlong]
etrnalsunshinee Offline
Glider Slave

Registered: 07/25/09
Posts: 1714
Loc: New Jersey
Originally Posted By: tjlong
I also can say that, in my own personal experience, a change in diet and addition of probiotics has diminished the number of trich in the gut as the gut flora is replenished and closer to the way it should be.


What did you change about their diet besides the addition of probiotics so others that may experience this can do that as well? (With their vet's approval)
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#1237415 - 03/09/12 11:59 AM Re: Tritrichomonas/Tri Trichs [Re: etrnalsunshinee]
tjlong Offline
Glider Slave

Registered: 09/25/09
Posts: 1710
Loc: Washington
Originally Posted By: etrnalsunshinee
Originally Posted By: tjlong
I also can say that, in my own personal experience, a change in diet and addition of probiotics has diminished the number of trich in the gut as the gut flora is replenished and closer to the way it should be.


What did you change about their diet besides the addition of probiotics so others that may experience this can do that as well? (With their vet's approval)

I increased protein up from 14% to about double that and I decreased sugars. I was told by the two vets that the lower amount of protein combine with high sugar content in some diets can cause the gut to change ph balance and be more susceptible to yeast growth (that's why I saw a lot of yeast in a lot of gliders until I changed) as well as to protozoa like giardia and trich. Those things thrive in this type of environment in the gut.

Of course, many vets are not very diet savy which makes this type of thing even harder to deal with. It is all very frustrating and complicated.
_________________________
Regards,
Tracy
(425) 789-7753
Acres of Sugar

:rtmo: Slave to Several Adorable Gliders :wfb:
~~~~~ :cream: :grey: :leu: :bb: ~~~~~
Sugar Glider Genetic Project





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#1237418 - 03/09/12 12:08 PM Re: Tritrichomonas/Tri Trichs [Re: GliderNursery]
Chris_R Offline
Glider Explorer

Registered: 12/30/08
Posts: 310
Loc: Northwest Missouri
I posted this in the other thread so I will just copy/paste it

The PCR's that were done on all the gliders were for ONLY the T.Foetus strain of tritrichamonas. ALL of the samples sent in from everyone came back negative (including Nadines). This is NOT T.Foetus so the PCR testing would have given FALSE negatives. Different labs AND vets have seen this tritrich on a wet mount from animals in different states and it HAS been diagnosed as tritrichamonas. The two labs for Nadine (Idexx and Colorado lab), 2 vets in Washington and now the one in Tx (whom has now looked at more than one sample during treatment and although the numbers are decreasing, treatment is still needed).. <added after> The tx joey isnt responding to the metronidizole like it should, there are 2 other treatment drugs that are used and the vet has been sent the phone number to a consulting vet to see if these other 2 drugs might be more responsive....

A zoologist is helping and expects this to be the T.Muirs strain, IF that is the case, then there is no cure in the other species it effects and is commonly the known cause of "wet tail" syndrome. Flair ups can be treated but it cant ever be cured. The only known way to "break the cycle" is to perform a C-sect so the offspring is not passing through the birth canal where it gets infected. That mother is then culled from the breeding program as is the male that bred her, unfortunately this is not an option in our sugar gliders... Again there is no documentation that while this strain is incurable in other species that it is so in sugar gliders


Tritrich is a single celled organism that reproduces by binary fusion (divides itself down the middle). That "offspring" has the exact same DNA AND Drug resistances that its "parent" had. 1% of tritrichs will normally survive treatment, so as soon as 2nd generation you now have tritrichs that have resistance to the initial treatment drug<s>.

Unfortunately, until we know what the EXACT strain is, get a PCR for it and gather more information from these gliders that are undergoing treatment for an extended amount of time. NO ONE can say that their gliders are cured as with Giardia the numbers can be kept low enough for a wet mount not to show those "swimmers" <again an afterthought>... out of the 100+ known strains of trichamonas ONLY about 5 are known to be pathogenic (causing harm) T.foetus is one, the human version T. vaginalis <sp?> STD, T. muirs, the bird one T.gallinea <sp?> and a newly discovered trichamonas in prarie dogs

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#1237419 - 03/09/12 12:09 PM Re: Tritrichomonas/Tri Trichs [Re: GliderNursery]
Dancing Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 09/10/04
Posts: 22746
Loc: 80 acres of paradise in KS
Thank you Tracy. I'm very sorry you are having to go through this with your gliders. I can't imagine how difficult it is.

Is there a difference between tritrichomonas and trichomonas? If so, does it matter as far as this discussion and how they could effect gliders?

My focus here I guess is on these "ick" joeys. They are being sent to new homes after they "recover" and I've been concerned all along if this is wise. I was asked repeatedly to sell one of my joeys to be the mate to one of these "ick" joeys and I refused feeling that it wasn't safe for my joey. I also don't think any of these "ick" joeys should be put into breeding situations.

If tri-trich or trich is at play here, then this needs to be addressed and why I was asking if the "ick" joeys were diagnosed with tri-trich as well or if they were tested for it at all. I simply don't know if they have or not.
_________________________
620-704-9109
Judge not until you have walked in their shoes and lived their lives. What you see online is only part of the story.

I could have missed the pain
But I'd of had to miss the dance


The soul would have no rainbow if the eyes had no tears.

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#1237421 - 03/09/12 12:12 PM Re: Tritrichomonas/Tri Trichs [Re: GliderNursery]
Dancing Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 09/10/04
Posts: 22746
Loc: 80 acres of paradise in KS
Chris...do you think the joeys that have had this "ick" should be in breeding situations even if they appear to have fully recovered and appear healthy?
_________________________
620-704-9109
Judge not until you have walked in their shoes and lived their lives. What you see online is only part of the story.

I could have missed the pain
But I'd of had to miss the dance


The soul would have no rainbow if the eyes had no tears.

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#1237427 - 03/09/12 12:25 PM Re: Tritrichomonas/Tri Trichs [Re: GliderNursery]
tjlong Offline
Glider Slave

Registered: 09/25/09
Posts: 1710
Loc: Washington
Dancing, I have been asked to sell a joey to be mates with one of the ick joeys as well. I declined too.

IMO, and it is only mine, we don't know enough about what is going on with those joeys to put them into breeding situations. If they were mine, I would not sell them to anyone to breed. That is MY opinion.

That being said, we just don't KNOW. It is a sad situation for everyone involved. It is definitely stressful! I don't even have ick joeys here. I have Grace who has trich and strep. I have two males who have necrosis of the penis after being with Grace. I have one male who has yet to get his mate pregnant even though he mates with her. That male was housed with Grace prior to his maturity. He is negative on any and all tests.

ANYTHING I can do to help expedite us finding a test that can be done other than direct smear I am open to doing. I am in contact with other people who are working behind the scenes to help us find a facility to take this project on.

Now, here is another thought. This could be benign...not saying it is. It could be widespread...not saying it is. It could be that many gliders carry it but it doesn't pop up unless there is the right environment and situation to cause it to do so. The first ick joey we know of was found in 2003 so this isn't something new, it's just not something we have seen a lot.

The breeders and owners who have put their testing out here to be seen are ones who I appreciate. They do not have to share, just like I don't have to. But the DID! They want to find what is best for our gliders just as much as you and I.
_________________________
Regards,
Tracy
(425) 789-7753
Acres of Sugar

:rtmo: Slave to Several Adorable Gliders :wfb:
~~~~~ :cream: :grey: :leu: :bb: ~~~~~
Sugar Glider Genetic Project





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#1237429 - 03/09/12 12:30 PM Re: Tritrichomonas/Tri Trichs [Re: GliderNursery]
Chris_R Offline
Glider Explorer

Registered: 12/30/08
Posts: 310
Loc: Northwest Missouri
Tritrichamonas is just a "subspecies" of Trichamonas, to define one just has to count the number of flagella, 3 to 5 flagella is what is seen (tritrich is 3, pentatrich is 5 etc)

Dancing, IMHO absolutely NOT... Again IMHO, all that is doing is making sure this organism is well established in our glider populations... In fact, me personally (since I dont have it here) I have closed my doors, my joeys arent even going to homes that have gliders and are only going to "newbie" non-glider owners (or homes that I personally KNOW are clear), Im THAT scared of it. Ive always been scared of these "reproduction by binary fusion" organisms because of the fact that 2nd generation is already resistant to meds, Ive always personally thought this sort of organism would be the next great epidemic to drastically reduce populations ( kinda like the black plague did)


Edited by Chris_R (03/09/12 12:37 PM)

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#1237430 - 03/09/12 12:33 PM Re: Tritrichomonas/Tri Trichs [Re: Dancing]
Sherri Offline
Glider Addict

Registered: 11/02/06
Posts: 3826
Loc: Big Sandy TN
Originally Posted By: Dancing
My focus here I guess is on these "ick" joeys. They are being sent to new homes after they "recover" and I've been concerned all along if this is wise. I was asked repeatedly to sell one of my joeys to be the mate to one of these "ick" joeys and I refused feeling that it wasn't safe for my joey. I also don't think any of these "ick" joeys should be put into breeding situations.



This is why I hate it when people (including myself) use the term "ick" to classify these joey's. Many of them have been diagnosed as having something completely different from each other and only a FEW were ever initially diagnosed with tritrich. So to lump ALL of these joey's to be associated with tritrich is completely false. And only causes more fear and confusion to anyone who is not understanding the differences in the diagnosis of these joey's.

I have had 3 joey's that have had yeast (one passed), all 3 were from the same parents. None of my other joey's were affected. One of those joey's will be breeding and the other will not. Who is it to say that EVERY joey should not be bred?
_________________________
sherri

Forever home to a wide variety of animals, domestic, farm and exotic.
My passion is my little suggie sweethearts! 731-441-9814


http://www.newbysglidernook.com/index.html

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#1237436 - 03/09/12 12:45 PM Re: Tritrichomonas/Tri Trichs [Re: Sherri]
tjlong Offline
Glider Slave

Registered: 09/25/09
Posts: 1710
Loc: Washington
Originally Posted By: Sherri
Originally Posted By: Dancing
My focus here I guess is on these "ick" joeys. They are being sent to new homes after they "recover" and I've been concerned all along if this is wise. I was asked repeatedly to sell one of my joeys to be the mate to one of these "ick" joeys and I refused feeling that it wasn't safe for my joey. I also don't think any of these "ick" joeys should be put into breeding situations.



This is why I hate it when people (including myself) use the term "ick" to classify these joey's. Many of them have been diagnosed as having something completely different from each other and only a FEW were ever initially diagnosed with tritrich. So to lump ALL of these joey's to be associated with tritrich is completely false. And only causes more fear and confusion to anyone who is not understanding the differences in the diagnosis of these joey's.

I have had 3 joey's that have had yeast (one passed), all 3 were from the same parents. None of my other joey's were affected. One of those joey's will be breeding and the other will not. Who is it to say that EVERY joey should not be bred?



Sherri, I think we are offering opinions. Like I said before, until there is a test that can definitely say, ""yes" or "no" your gliders have or do not have trich." We just don't know who does or does not have it. That's why it is frustrating.
People and other animals carry parasites. Some they carry forever and never have a problem. Is this one of those situations? No one knows. Your yeast babies have had a tough go of things. I agree that they haven't all had the same diagnosis. They do all look similar and have similar physical traits though, don't they? I believe that's where the 'ick' term came from. It doesn't mean they are all the same to be sure!


Edited by tjlong (03/09/12 01:19 PM)
_________________________
Regards,
Tracy
(425) 789-7753
Acres of Sugar

:rtmo: Slave to Several Adorable Gliders :wfb:
~~~~~ :cream: :grey: :leu: :bb: ~~~~~
Sugar Glider Genetic Project





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#1237439 - 03/09/12 12:55 PM Re: Tritrichomonas/Tri Trichs [Re: tjlong]
Sherri Offline
Glider Addict

Registered: 11/02/06
Posts: 3826
Loc: Big Sandy TN
Originally Posted By: tjlong
Originally Posted By: Sherri
Originally Posted By: Dancing
My focus here I guess is on these "ick" joeys. They are being sent to new homes after they "recover" and I've been concerned all along if this is wise. I was asked repeatedly to sell one of my joeys to be the mate to one of these "ick" joeys and I refused feeling that it wasn't safe for my joey. I also don't think any of these "ick" joeys should be put into breeding situations.



This is why I hate it when people (including myself) use the term "ick" to classify these joey's. Many of them have been diagnosed as having something completely different from each other and only a FEW were ever initially diagnosed with tritrich. So to lump ALL of these joey's to be associated with tritrich is completely false. And only causes more fear and confusion to anyone who is not understanding the differences in the diagnosis of these joey's.

I have had 3 joey's that have had yeast (one passed), all 3 were from the same parents. None of my other joey's were affected. One of those joey's will be breeding and the other will not. Who is it to say that EVERY joey should not be bred?



Sherri, I think we are offering opinions. Like I said before, until there is a test that can definitely say "yes" or "no" your gliders have trich.


So are you saying that MY gliders have trich, even though I have a test report that say's they don't have anything?
_________________________
sherri

Forever home to a wide variety of animals, domestic, farm and exotic.
My passion is my little suggie sweethearts! 731-441-9814


http://www.newbysglidernook.com/index.html

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#1237440 - 03/09/12 12:56 PM Re: Tritrichomonas/Tri Trichs [Re: GliderNursery]
Chris_R Offline
Glider Explorer

Registered: 12/30/08
Posts: 310
Loc: Northwest Missouri
Also I would like to state that unless the trich is "in bloom" a wet mount is NOT definative proof that "all is clear", in fact, it is ONLY diagnosed about 15% of the time on wet mount (meaning out of 100 known POSITIVE samples 85 of those are MISSED)...

To get a PCR test that is more accurate results (because it test for EXACT DNA of that organism and causes a reaction) involves a long EXPENSIVE process... First the perfect growing medium must be found, enough grown that a DNA sequence can be found that is definative to the organism, then you have to come up with the right polymeres to make up the PCR test for it...

We just dont know enough about it to make ANY assumptions (including IF its the cause of ICK), until further testing has been done.

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#1237444 - 03/09/12 01:13 PM Re: Tritrichomonas/Tri Trichs [Re: Sherri]
Chris_R Offline
Glider Explorer

Registered: 12/30/08
Posts: 310
Loc: Northwest Missouri
Originally Posted By: Sherri
Originally Posted By: tjlong
Originally Posted By: Sherri
Originally Posted By: Dancing
My focus here I guess is on these "ick" joeys. They are being sent to new homes after they "recover" and I've been concerned all along if this is wise. I was asked repeatedly to sell one of my joeys to be the mate to one of these "ick" joeys and I refused feeling that it wasn't safe for my joey. I also don't think any of these "ick" joeys should be put into breeding situations.



This is why I hate it when people (including myself) use the term "ick" to classify these joey's. Many of them have been diagnosed as having something completely different from each other and only a FEW were ever initially diagnosed with tritrich. So to lump ALL of these joey's to be associated with tritrich is completely false. And only causes more fear and confusion to anyone who is not understanding the differences in the diagnosis of these joey's.

I have had 3 joey's that have had yeast (one passed), all 3 were from the same parents. None of my other joey's were affected. One of those joey's will be breeding and the other will not. Who is it to say that EVERY joey should not be bred?



Sherri, I think we are offering opinions. Like I said before, until there is a test that can definitely say "yes" or "no" your gliders have trich.


So are you saying that MY gliders have trich, even though I have a test report that say's they don't have anything?


You tested for T.foetus correct? ALL PCR tests on animals (even the ones that had a positive wet mount) have come back NEGATIVE. All vets that have been confered with about this fact have come back to say that it can safely be assumed that this is NOT T.foetus, and the PCR test ONLY tests for the T.foetus strain, any other strain like T.Muirs would in fact come up NEGATIVE on this PCR.... also, read my statement above as to why wet mounts are not definative as to ruling it out completely, these are KNOWN and PROVEN FACTS....

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#1237445 - 03/09/12 01:16 PM Re: Tritrichomonas/Tri Trichs [Re: GliderNursery]
Sherri Offline
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Registered: 11/02/06
Posts: 3826
Loc: Big Sandy TN
Let me understand this correctly then, even though mine have NEVER displayed any diarreah I need to continually take them in for testing until I get a positive for tritrich? I just want to make sure that I am understanding what you and Tracy are saying.
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#1237447 - 03/09/12 01:21 PM Re: Tritrichomonas/Tri Trichs [Re: Sherri]
tjlong Offline
Glider Slave

Registered: 09/25/09
Posts: 1710
Loc: Washington
Originally Posted By: Sherri
Let me understand this correctly then, even though mine have NEVER displayed any diarreah I need to continually take them in for testing until I get a positive for tritrich? I just want to make sure that I am understanding what you and Tracy are saying.


Sherri sorry! I fixed my post to read a little more clearly. It didn't say what I meant it to say. NO, I didn't mean "your" gliders have trich. It was supposed to be a hypothetical saying we don't know one way or the other for certain until there is a test that can find it when it isn't blooming. A wet mount is just not easy to find it on.

I am so sorry you took it the wrong way. I said it the wrong way. I hope that it reads more clearly now.
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#1237450 - 03/09/12 01:26 PM Re: Tritrichomonas/Tri Trichs [Re: GliderNursery]
Chris_R Offline
Glider Explorer

Registered: 12/30/08
Posts: 310
Loc: Northwest Missouri
I dont think Tracy NOR myself is stating that. Im just responding to the fact that you said you have test results proving your negative, when those results are NOT definative to the situation at hand... Call the tx lab, as Tracy DID, they will tell you the same, if its not the strain of T.foetus the PCR test can and will produce false negatives...

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#1237451 - 03/09/12 01:26 PM Re: Tritrichomonas/Tri Trichs [Re: GliderNursery]
Dancing Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 09/10/04
Posts: 22746
Loc: 80 acres of paradise in KS
Sherri, I think using the term "ick" is appropriate at this point because of how the joeys look. They look icky. Whether or not they all look icky from the same reason really, truthfully, has not been determined. Nadine's joeys tested positive for one thing, your's for another and then yet another's joeys for yet another thing. But as I'm understanding it, it could be all related to a strain of trich that has NOT been tested for and therefore, missed.

We just don't know.

All we DO know is that these joeys ALL look "icky".

We all want definative answers and so far, that hasn't happened. Not from lack of trying on each of "your" parts (your being those with the "ick" joeys and those involved in trying to research it).

My heart goes out to each of you. Abigale is looking so much better and my hope is that each of these joeys lives a very long healthy life and that no other joeys present with this "ick". I think it is amazing the love and dedication shown to each of these little joeys in helping them get better. It is a long process and a difficult road. In many other "animal" breeding circles, those joeys and their parents would just be culled and call it a day with no effort being spent to save them. I don't think that is the answer by any means as nothing is learned from it. Nothing gained by their little lives suffering such a rough start.

But at the same time, I don't think they should be breeding UNLESS by someone VERY experienced not only with breeding but with this "ick" and that has the good vets available to do the testing so they can see if it does pass on to the next generation. And by someone willing to keep them and their offspring. Less face it, there are few people in the "glider community" with that experience and those (vet) resources.

We all are going to have our opinions regarding this "ick" and if the joeys should go on to breed. MY opinion is they should not simply because there are to many unanswered questions involved. We have healthy gliders that can go on to breed, I just don't think this is any more necessary than breeding "wiggle" babies or gliders with 50% coi's. AGAIN...UNLESS by someone experienced and for "research" purposes and ONLY if those gliders are loved first and foremost for WHO they are.

As for doors closed...I'm not taking in any gliders what so ever (and haven't for a long time now). I've always been picky about the homes my joeys go to. (again, Sherri, you know I trust you, you have some of my gliders) I am getting my remaining two intact boys neutered this month. But because they are still intact, there could (probably will be) a few more joeys that will need homes. I want to learn as much as I can so that I can continue to find only the best homes for them.
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#1237452 - 03/09/12 01:38 PM Re: Tritrichomonas/Tri Trichs [Re: GliderNursery]
hwh4ev Offline
Glider Addict

Registered: 12/03/08
Posts: 2836
Loc: roseville, mi
tracy, can you tell me what diet you changed to? or you using the same one, just adding more protein and less sugar.

i am going to pm you.

regards,
nancy in detroit
_________________________
regards,
nancy in roseville (formerly in detroit)

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#1237455 - 03/09/12 01:43 PM Re: Tritrichomonas/Tri Trichs [Re: GliderNursery]
kjgoulet Offline
Glider Slave

Registered: 02/12/11
Posts: 1516
Loc: North Dakota
I get that we're saying the "ick" joeys because well honestly they all look icky. Would Sherri's joey that will be breeding maybe give us more insight on this and if it is passed down the generations? That should there ever be a test that can accurately test for trich or tri trich, we will know for sure? I'm not saying take all these babies and let them start reproducing but like Dancing said, do it with someone who is very experienced.

I personally wouldn't sell my joeys if they had "ick" to breed but that's just my outlook on it. Everybody has differing opinions..
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Daughter Abby
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#1237465 - 03/09/12 02:13 PM Re: Tritrichomonas/Tri Trichs [Re: GliderNursery]
hwh4ev Offline
Glider Addict

Registered: 12/03/08
Posts: 2836
Loc: roseville, mi
i would say that nadines joeys (the ick/tritec joeys) that have been sold and are/will be bred will also tell us if it passes on to the next generation.

i pray not.

regards,
nancy in detroit
p.s. i dont think the ick joeys should be bred as i
stated awhile ago in a different forum. i do think
they could go to homes as pet only in a non breeding
home.
_________________________
regards,
nancy in roseville (formerly in detroit)

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