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#1239633 - 03/15/12 08:33 PM The Wombaroo High Protein Diet (Part One)
ValkyrieMome Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 01/13/07
Posts: 10983
Loc: Denton, TX
I've observed on various forums that anytime a question is asked about the HPW diet, someone inevitably posts a response "Ask the source. Ask Peggy."
I've thought about this for a while. I thought, Good point! Why don't I go to the source with my questions! The Source being the Wombaroo-Passwell company. (Since the Passwell division deals more with bird foods, I'll refer only to Wombaroo.)

What followed has been a series of emails between myself, and Mr. Gordon Rich (I didn't ask, but since Wombaroo was founded by Roslyn and Brian Rich, and Gordon, with his experience as a Chemical Engineer, joined the company in 2005, I'm thinking Gordon Rich is the son of the company founders). Mr. Rich has been very generous with his time (and patience) in answering my many questions and explaining the Wombaroo recommended diet for sugar gliders, as well as some nutrition facts I found to be fascinating and educational.

With his permission, I'm able to share his emails and comments with anyone interested. He encouraged me to share the Wombaroo recommendations for diet. Additionally, if I didn't ask questions you would want asked, he encourages anyone to contact him with their questions. I have a complete transcription of our email exchange if anyone would like it. Just PM me.

He shied away from calling this a "Wombaroo Approved" diet. His comments were that the policy is not to dictate, but rather to offer guidelines and answer questions. I have also available for anyone who wishes to see them, Mr. Rich's evaluations of Peggy's HPW and some of the modifications I offered to him for consideration. Additionally, if you wish to ask any question here, I can tell you if it is one I asked and he answered in his emails. If not, he has been warned to expect questions in his inbox!

So, with that said, here are the suggestions by the Wombaroo company for the feeding of Captive Sugar Gliders in the United States. Please note, I have made comments, based on our email conversation, where I felt it appropriate. My comments are in red.
_________________________
Alden
"Animals can communicate quite well. And they do. And generally speaking, they are ignored." Alice Walker


Mom to Valhalla; 6 cats; 1 macaw; 2 hedgehogs;
and very many great gliders!

(plus the 2 skin kids)
valkyriegliders.com

Kyrie, nothing will ever fill the hole you left in my heart.

Top
#1239634 - 03/15/12 08:34 PM Re: The Wombaroo High Protein Diet (Part One) [Re: ValkyrieMome]
ValkyrieMome Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 01/13/07
Posts: 10983
Loc: Denton, TX
Wombaroo Food Products
Feeding Guidelines for Sugar Gliders

These guidelines largely rely on using Wombaroo High Protein Supplement™ (HPS™) to provide the essential protein, fatty acids, vitamins & minerals in the diet.

The addition of other nutritional supplements or high-energy foods is not recommended as this can severely affect the balance of nutrients in the diet. However there is plenty of scope for variation within the food types presented in the diet as outlined in the accompanying notes.
The diet is based on a 130g adult animal at maintenance (basal metabolic rate1,2 × 2.5) with a calculated energy requirement of approximately 113 kJ/day.

Approximate feed proportions of diet are:

Fruit & Vegetables
(supplemented with HPS™ powder)
• 20g diced Fruit & Veg with 2g of Wombaroo HPS™ (1 level teaspoon) dispersed over it - 75%
• Plain Biscuit (supplemented with HPS™ solution*) - 5 g plain Biscuit/Cookie (eg ½ an arrowroot or tea biscuit) with 2 ml of Wombaroo HPS Solution* poured over it. - 15% NOT a fortified toddler arrowroot cookie. These are not fortified: http://tinyurl.com/8yy8ozm
• Small Carnivore Food™ - 2g (1 level teaspoon) of prepared Wombaroo Small Carnivore Food™ made up as a moist crumble - 7%
I have contacted Karen Milas about this. She expects this food to be imported by the end of May. In the meantime, Mr. Rich commented that Mazuri Insectivore Diet, while low in protein, had good ingredients and balance.
• Live Food - 1g mealworms, crickets or other invertebrates - 3%
* Wombaroo HPS Solution is made by suspending 1 part HPS™ powder (25g) into 3 parts warm water (75ml) and mixing well. Mr. Gordon Rich thought the “green juice” made a logical and reasonable addition in our American diets. Substituting green juice for all or part of the water here seems like a good idea. Can also add honey. See his notes below about this.

Approximate analysis of the above diet (dry basis):
Energy 17.5MJ/kg
Protein 20.0%
Fat 11.0%
Calcium 0.50%
Phosphorus (available) 0.34%
Ca/P ratio 1.5

For breeding or growing animals increase the amount of Wombaroo HPS™ or Small Carnivore Food™ by 50%.

Additionally, I will continue to add Milk Thistle powder for a time, especially to rescued gliders, or those fed a poor diet. Milk Thistle has both preventative and healing affects on the liver. Since necropsies have shown liver diseases in American sugar gliders, I feel it is beneficial in some amount of Milk Thistle as a “prophylactic” maybe to undo damage by other diets or “non-diets” that gliders, especially rescues, have been fed mainly pellet-based diets.

Notes:
Fruit & Vegetables (75% of diet) These are offered as a major carbohydrate (energy) source in the diet. Sugar Gliders are able to readily digest both simple sugars and complex carbohydrates4. Fruits tend to be more palatable than vegetables due to higher sugar content. We generally feed about 75% fruit and 25% vegetables but this can vary based on seasonal availability and animal preference. A large variety of fresh fruits may be accepted including (and not limited to) berries, apple, pear, citrus, stone fruits, rockmelon (cantaloupe) with seeds, paw paw (papaya) with seeds. Likewise an assortment of vegetables may be offered including cucumber with seeds, sweet potato and grated carrot. As long as these foods are supplemented with the recommended amount of Wombaroo High protein Supplement (HPS) then all essential nutrients are properly balanced. There is little need to be concerned about the calcium to phosphorus ratio of individual food items as this is balanced out by the addition of the HPS.

HPS Solution with Plain Biscuit/Cookie
(15% of diet) This provides another energy source, which uses the biscuit as “vehicle” for the liquid HPS™ solution. The HPS™ solution may also be used as the basis of an artificial nectar diet which can be made more palatable by the addition of honey, blended fruit or juice. If using these other food items (which are high in carbohydrate) then the amount of biscuit can be reduced accordingly or removed altogether. Alternatively one can also use Wombaroo Nectar Shake n Make™ as a nutritionally balanced nectar diet. I don’t believe this Nectar Shake n Make is available in the US.

Small Carnivore Food & Live Food (up to 10% of diet) Wombaroo Small Carnivore Food™ is used as a live food (insect) replacement. Effectively our suggested diet can use either Small Carnivore Food or “Live Food” or a combination of both. The Small Carnivore Food™ has the advantage that it is fully balanced with vitamins & minerals, whereas insects are generally deficient in calcium. However live insects are a natural part of a Sugar Glider’s diet and are a favoured food which offer behavioural enrichment. When feeding insects it is important to offer a variety as feeding one type alone may be nutritionally deficient. The larval stage of insects (eg mealworms, fly pupae) tend to be higher in fat, so should only be used as a treat. Adult stage insects (eg crickets, moths, cockroaches) have a higher protein content and are therefore provide a better source of nutrition in a captive diet. In all cases feeder insects can be fortified by growing them on a nutritional substrate such as Passwell Insect Booster™. It is interesting to note that sugar gliders also feed on spiders in the wild. Spiders contain elevated levels of the sulphonic amino acid taurine, which may be particularly beneficial in the growth and development of young gliders. Both Wombaroo HPS™ and Small Carnivore Food™ contain added levels of taurine. I don’t believe the Passwell Insect Booser is available to us, either. I’ve been using this: http://tinyurl.com/7dynvy6

Blossoms & Foliage
It is also recommended to provide as much native (Australian) blossom and foliage as possible (eg eucalypt, acacia, callistemon, grevillea, banksia). Larger branches of eucalypt are also beneficial to stimulate natural foraging behaviour such as chewing of bark. We can get euc from eucproducts.com. Additionally, there are many flowers that are edible.

Pollen Pollen from native plants is a natural part of the diet and is often consumed by gliders in conjunction with nectar3. However most commercial forms of pollen (ie Bee Pollen) are harvested from bees and are not nutritionally equivalent to the native plant pollen consumed by gliders (bee pollens are large agglomerations of pollen grains bound together with carbohydrates). As a result, bee pollen is significantly less digestible and offers little additional nutritional value to captive gliders already being fed a balanced diet. The range of amino acids, vitamins and minerals found in plant pollen are also contained in Wombaroo HPS™, so we believe the addition of pollen to this diet is unnecessary.

Iron Storage Disease Excessive dietary iron can induce Iron Storage Disease (ISD), which is the accumulation of iron in body organs and tissues. In prolonged cases ISD can lead to organ failure and death. Some nectarivorous and frugivorous species are prone to ISD, and these species normally have low levels of iron in their natural diet. Although iron storage disease has not been widely reported in sugar gliders, evidence of tissue iron deposition has been seen in gliders at necropsy4. Many commercial human foods (eg baby foods) and supplements are fortified with iron and these should be avoided when feeding sugar gliders. Some commonly fed glider “recipes” may contain excessive iron content4. Wombaroo High Protein Supplement™ contains less than 40ppm Iron and thus provides safe levels of iron in the diet.

References
1. Dawson TJ, Hulbert AJ (1970). Standard metabolism, body temperature, and surface areas of Australian marsupials. Am J Phys 1970;218:1233–8.
2. Nagy KA, Suckling GC (1985). Field energetics and water balance of sugar gliders, Petaurus breviceps (Marsupialia: Petauridae). Aust J Zool;33:683–91.
3. Smith AP. (1982) diet and feeding strategies of the marsupial sugar glider in temperate Australia. J Anim Ecol;51:149–66.
4. Dierenfeld E.S. (2009) Feeding Behaviour and Nutrition of the Sugar Glider (Petaurus breviceps). The veterinary clinics of North America Exotic animal practice Volume: 12, Issue: 2, Publisher: Elsevier Ltd, Pages: 209-15, xiii-viii.


Edited by ValkyrieMome (03/15/12 08:35 PM)
_________________________
Alden
"Animals can communicate quite well. And they do. And generally speaking, they are ignored." Alice Walker


Mom to Valhalla; 6 cats; 1 macaw; 2 hedgehogs;
and very many great gliders!

(plus the 2 skin kids)
valkyriegliders.com

Kyrie, nothing will ever fill the hole you left in my heart.

Top
#1239635 - 03/15/12 08:39 PM Re: The Wombaroo High Protein Diet (Part One) [Re: ValkyrieMome]
ValkyrieMome Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 01/13/07
Posts: 10983
Loc: Denton, TX
It is actually very simple - his notes are to clarify - so don't let them bog you down initially.

It is fruit and vegetables with Wombaroo powder sprinkled on top.
An arrowroot cookie (half) with a solution of 1 part powder to 3 parts liquid on top.
Insects and/or Carnivore diet.

That's pretty much it.
_________________________
Alden
"Animals can communicate quite well. And they do. And generally speaking, they are ignored." Alice Walker


Mom to Valhalla; 6 cats; 1 macaw; 2 hedgehogs;
and very many great gliders!

(plus the 2 skin kids)
valkyriegliders.com

Kyrie, nothing will ever fill the hole you left in my heart.

Top
#1239804 - 03/16/12 10:25 AM Re: The Wombaroo High Protein Diet (Part One) [Re: ValkyrieMome]
Sherri Offline
Glider Addict

Registered: 11/02/06
Posts: 3826
Loc: Big Sandy TN
Bump
_________________________
sherri

Forever home to a wide variety of animals, domestic, farm and exotic.
My passion is my little suggie sweethearts! 731-441-9814


http://www.newbysglidernook.com/index.html

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#1239806 - 03/16/12 10:45 AM Re: The Wombaroo High Protein Diet (Part One) [Re: ValkyrieMome]
JillMarie Offline
Serious Glideritis

Registered: 01/03/09
Posts: 7748
Loc: New Jersey
Very interesting.
_________________________
:grey: Bosom Buddy Creations:grey:
^website link wink

Remember that God Loves You!

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#1239836 - 03/16/12 12:08 PM Re: The Wombaroo High Protein Diet (Part One) [Re: ValkyrieMome]
finnessa Offline
Glider Guardian

Registered: 07/29/09
Posts: 847
Loc: New Jersey
So who is going to Australia to pick up plants?

Why must the dry food be moistened? Why are we assuming captive bred/raised gliders require the same dietary needs as wild gliders?

Are there tests and studies for this diet that can be viewed for captive bred/raised gliders?

How many of you have gliders that actually eat/strip euc branches? Of my 13 cages not a single one will do this. Some don't even touch it, some will make a nest of leaves, others will chew for 10 minutes and never touch it again.

Why after 10 years of trusting the use of the Original HPW diet is this now being looked into? Seems to me it was brought up now only because of a new diet using 3 letters and the creator not being well liked by SOME.
_________________________
Mommy to
MANY gliders
2 dogs
2 cats
3 turtles
and 4 skin kids.

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#1239844 - 03/16/12 12:37 PM Re: The Wombaroo High Protein Diet (Part One) [Re: ValkyrieMome]
josefine Offline
Glider Addict

Registered: 08/17/08
Posts: 2701
Loc: Perry, Iowa
Improvements are what we always want to be doing in regards to feeding our suggies,this is how I view it.
There is so much more we need to learn by way of foods & feeding them to our babies.
_________________________
Larry & Josefine Vodenik
2014 4 St
Perry,Iowa50220
515/321-6081cell#
j.vodenik@hotmail.com

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#1239852 - 03/16/12 12:45 PM Re: The Wombaroo High Protein Diet (Part One) [Re: ValkyrieMome]
CandyOtte Offline
Serious Glideritis

Registered: 09/03/08
Posts: 5138
Loc: Lutz Florida
This would be ANOTHER diet/feeding plan folks might consider using for their gliders.

Nothing tells me it is better or worse than any of the other glider diet recipes available to us.

It is just another choice in ways to feed gliders. It would need to be used over a period of time by a number of glider homes to determine if gliders thrive on it or not.


Edited by CandyOtte (03/16/12 12:45 PM)
Edit Reason: typo
_________________________
Candy Otte
& the Glider Kids
Sassy, Corky, Mehitabel & Missy
Wacco, Yacco, & Dot
Mindy, Kanobles, Elmo, & Chipper

http://www.gliderkids-diet.com

CandyOtte@aol.com

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#1239863 - 03/16/12 01:20 PM Re: The Wombaroo High Protein Diet (Part One) [Re: CandyOtte]
Sherri Offline
Glider Addict

Registered: 11/02/06
Posts: 3826
Loc: Big Sandy TN
Originally Posted By: CandyOtte
This would be ANOTHER diet/feeding plan folks might consider using for their gliders.

Nothing tells me it is better or worse than any of the other glider diet recipes available to us.

It is just another choice in ways to feed gliders. It would need to be used over a period of time by a number of glider homes to determine if gliders thrive on it or not.



I agree Candy. The only thing that sends me red flags though, is that I'm scared that people are going to take any of the HPW diets out there and modify them with this new information.

PLEASE......if you choose to feed this diet, please do so as written. Do not modify the HPW diets and please do not modify this one to fit them together. Please feed ANY diet of your choice AS IT IS WRITTEN. If you feel the need to change something, then please ask the creator of said diet.

And this diet is no different. If you have any questions please go to Wombaroo directly.


Edited by Sherri (03/16/12 01:20 PM)
_________________________
sherri

Forever home to a wide variety of animals, domestic, farm and exotic.
My passion is my little suggie sweethearts! 731-441-9814


http://www.newbysglidernook.com/index.html

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#1239874 - 03/16/12 01:40 PM Re: The Wombaroo High Protein Diet (Part One) [Re: ValkyrieMome]
Dancing Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 09/10/04
Posts: 22746
Loc: 80 acres of paradise in KS
Ok, I understand cautioning people to feed diets as written. I do. We have a lot of new owners (constantly) that may try to blend diets together or alter them without researching or understanding much of the combined knowledge many of us have.

However.

Pockets took the original Leadbeaters and altered it and came up with PML.

Bourbon did the same and came up with BML.

Peggy took PML and altered it and came up with the original HPW.

Judie took BML and altered it and came up with Judie's BML.

Candy, you took BML and HPW and came up with your blend.

I couldn't get my gliders to eat anything with honey and came up with Reep's.

Even those in the Australia alter and change up diets as they feel is needed.

What I think is wrong is to make these alterations and launch them on the public without knowing how they will effect the gliders long term (talking minimum of 2 years) and without having many gliders eating it for the 2+ years before it is "launched".

What each person chooses to feed their gliders is up to them. If they choose to risk altering any diet, they should do so knowing there is the risk of harming their glider's health.

We tell people to use one of the "recognized" diets that have proven themselves over time. Yet how many people will just blindly jump onto a "new" diet because it seems easier, cheaper or because someone with a "name" says it is the best thing next to sliced bread?

When I came up with Reep's, I KNEW I was risking MY gliders. I did so because I had to get them to eat SOMETHING and none of the diets already time tested was working for them. But I risked ONLY my gliders. That was 8 years ago. I stand by my diet because of the numbers of MY gliders that have been fed this and how long they are living and the healthy joeys my breeding gliders have and the over all health of my entire colony.

There will be those that see this Wambaroo HPS diet as the "next great thing" but how long has this been fed and to how many gliders in what circumstances? And how will not having native Australian flora effect the diet if we try to follow it here?
_________________________
620-704-9109
Judge not until you have walked in their shoes and lived their lives. What you see online is only part of the story.

I could have missed the pain
But I'd of had to miss the dance


The soul would have no rainbow if the eyes had no tears.

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#1239876 - 03/16/12 01:49 PM Re: The Wombaroo High Protein Diet (Part One) [Re: ValkyrieMome]
Sherri Offline
Glider Addict

Registered: 11/02/06
Posts: 3826
Loc: Big Sandy TN
The problem I have is that when people alter diets and then have a problem they automatically blame the creator of the diet and that is the one that gets the backlash. NOT the fact that the owner altered the diet in the first place.

And people have to remember that the gliders that are getting fed this Wambaroo HPS are wild gliders and not gliders that we have here.
_________________________
sherri

Forever home to a wide variety of animals, domestic, farm and exotic.
My passion is my little suggie sweethearts! 731-441-9814


http://www.newbysglidernook.com/index.html

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#1239879 - 03/16/12 02:17 PM Re: The Wombaroo High Protein Diet (Part One) [Re: ValkyrieMome]
Srlb Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 10/30/03
Posts: 16734
Loc: St. Johns, Florida
I for one am rather Glad that Alden shared this with everyone.

It shows that the Original HPW™ once and for all did not come from Australia, even though ONE of the ingredients in it does.

After almost 9 years of the diet being around (The Original HPW™) and used with GREAT success, it is still one of the leading Captive glider diets we have.

After 7-8 years of this diet being out there and the testing that was done and necropsies and histopaths, and the concerns of sugar glider owners, the same people took those numbers and began working on an Improved version of the powders. However this time, we also work with a Nutritionist/Chemist. Keep in mind we are working with CAPTIVE/PET gliders, not wild ones.

The instructions on how Wombaroo (Paswell) feeds has ALWAYS been on the back of their packaging. Nobody has ever really felt comfortable with the *sprinkling* concept, no matter what diet calls for it.

When Pockets first told me about PML, I did try it out, followed her way to a T. I personally did not feel comfortable feeding the seeds she had me order from Australia, although they smelled WONDERFUL!! :-) I couldnt follow the way Debbie fed because she grew a lot of her own stuff (I have a brown thumb) and she ordered a bit of it from Australia.

Pockets recommended (as most of us do) to take the diet to the vet and see what their recommendations were. That is what I did. That is how the OHPW™ came to life (more can be read about that here: http://www.hpwdietcenter.com/original-hpw.html

Now, for those of you who want to follow THIS way, I would suggest you contact Paswell (Wombaroo) and ask they what you can do to supplement the foliage that you are not going to be able to grow/get here in the USA. Also to be careful when you are going out and buying the Tea Biscuits of Arrowroot Cookies.

I would also recommend you take it to your vet after you collect all the information on how it should be fed and you have the ingredients to do so, and discuss it with them.

As with any other diet out there, if you like it and you feel comfortable with it and your gliders will eat it, feed it. If you dont, dont.

Just make sure you, as others have said to, feed it as recommended.

Also be certain to follow the warnings about the ISD. Some diets out there do contain high levels of iron. I am happy to say the HPW Plus™ and the HPW Complete™ also contain lower than 40ppm Iron in them.


Edited by Srlb (03/16/12 02:24 PM)
_________________________
Peggy
Critter Love
Critter Love® Diet Center

If you want to know what a person is like, watch how he treats others.

You'll never know what the outcome is if you don't step up and try.


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#1239880 - 03/16/12 02:20 PM Re: The Wombaroo High Protein Diet (Part One) [Re: ValkyrieMome]
Dancing Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 09/10/04
Posts: 22746
Loc: 80 acres of paradise in KS
Sherri, I agree. I know that for quite a while, Bourbon was catching hell for sick gliders being fed BML. When in reality, it was MODIFIED BML. That is the reason she encouraged the "Back to the Basics BML" so that it could be more closely monitored. People are told to ONLY feed what is on the list for BML so that IF there is a problem, they can try to get it more easily figured out.

But how many REALLY follow their diets exactly as written?



And, how do we know that is only being fed to wild gliders? And why would they BE feeding wild gliders who can forage for their own food? That is why I asked, how many gliders and under what circumstances.
_________________________
620-704-9109
Judge not until you have walked in their shoes and lived their lives. What you see online is only part of the story.

I could have missed the pain
But I'd of had to miss the dance


The soul would have no rainbow if the eyes had no tears.

Top
#1239885 - 03/16/12 02:31 PM Re: The Wombaroo High Protein Diet (Part One) [Re: ValkyrieMome]
CandyOtte Offline
Serious Glideritis

Registered: 09/03/08
Posts: 5138
Loc: Lutz Florida
Dancing:
Quote:
Candy, you took BML and HPW and came up with your blend.


Actually, I never combined BML and HPW - I compared the nutrients in many of the popular glider diets. In the process I noticed that if you combined the INGREDIENTS LIST for HPW and REEPS - you had the INGREDIENT LIST for BML - minus the Wheat Germ and supplements.

My final recipe contained only ingredients found in those glider diets, just different amounts to get the balance of nutrients I was looking for.

What everyone needs to keep in mind is that there are a number of diets that owners may choose from. That choice will depend on their individual preferences for preparation, serving and storage. We do not have a single best diet. I believe any of the diets currently being used by most owners in this discussion are probably meeting the glider's nutritional needs.

All glider diets have pros and cons and we could argue those points until gliders learn to speak English and verbalize their own preferences.

If you are using a RECIPE posted in the forums you are trusting someone else's research, opinions and results - if you want the same results they have had - follow the recipe and the feeding instructions.

If you choose to go it on your own, be ready to do your own research and make changes if necessary after offering it to your gliders.
_________________________
Candy Otte
& the Glider Kids
Sassy, Corky, Mehitabel & Missy
Wacco, Yacco, & Dot
Mindy, Kanobles, Elmo, & Chipper

http://www.gliderkids-diet.com

CandyOtte@aol.com

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#1239927 - 03/16/12 03:55 PM Re: The Wombaroo High Protein Diet (Part One) [Re: ValkyrieMome]
Dancing Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 09/10/04
Posts: 22746
Loc: 80 acres of paradise in KS
Sorry Candy, didn't mean to misrepresent your diet. I have always been under the impression that the "Blended" diet was a blend of other diets. I was not meaning to sound like I was downing your diet at all.
_________________________
620-704-9109
Judge not until you have walked in their shoes and lived their lives. What you see online is only part of the story.

I could have missed the pain
But I'd of had to miss the dance


The soul would have no rainbow if the eyes had no tears.

Top
#1239958 - 03/16/12 07:25 PM Re: The Wombaroo High Protein Diet (Part One) [Re: Dancing]
ValkyrieMome Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 01/13/07
Posts: 10983
Loc: Denton, TX
Originally Posted By: Dancing
And, how do we know that is only being fed to wild gliders? And why would they BE feeding wild gliders who can forage for their own food? That is why I asked, how many gliders and under what circumstances.


Wild gliders? No... I don't think the Wombaroo company skips around the Out-Back sprinkling their powder. Thank you, Dancing, for recognizing that would be a bit incredulous. From their website:

Quote:
Apart from selling products to wildlife carers, aviculturists and animal breeders, we also supply specially formulated milk products for animal studies to the Department of Paediatrics at Flinders University, University of Sydney, Westmead Hospital, The Children’s Hospital Research Institute, and the Women’s and Children’s Hospital Adelaide. We have supplied individual researchers at the University of Tasmania, University of New England, Australian National University, Adelaide University, Flinders University and Charles Sturt University with animal and bird foods for their particular studies.

We have supplied specialised bird foods and advice to the following recovery programs, the Black Stilt in New Zealand, the Magpie Robin in The Seychelles, the Regent Honeyeater in New South Wales, the Helmeted Honeyeater in Victoria, the Black-eared Miner in South Australia and the Yellow-tailed Black Cockatoo in South Australia.

We have supplied milk replacers to the World Society for the Protection of Animals for orphaned Orang-utans in Borneo, Taman Safari for Sumartran Tigers and to the Northern Hairy-nose Wombat recovery program.

Our Lorikeet & Honeyeater Food, Insectivore Rearing Mix, Finch Soft Food and Parrot Pellets & Crumbles are used extensively as maintenance diets at institutions such as Taronga Zoo, Adelaide Zoo, Currumbin Bird Park, Gorge Wildlife Park, Territory Wildlife Park, Healesville Sanctuary, Department of Conservation and local councils.

We are continuing our research into the nutritional requirements of captive and wild birds and animals and have developed several products specifically for zoos and captive breeding programs. Some of the above organisations have assisted us by trialing these new products.


If you'd like more specifics, please contact them and ask! The email I've used is: Wombaroo/Passwell <wombaroo@adelaide.on.net>

Originally Posted By: finnessa
Are there tests and studies for this diet that can be viewed for captive bred/raised gliders?

Why after 10 years of trusting the use of the Original HPW diet is this now being looked into? Seems to me it was brought up now only because of a new diet using 3 letters and the creator not being well liked by SOME.


Are there tests and studies for O-HPW??

And yes, there are. You are also welcome to contact the Wombaroo Passwell company at the email address listed. Or call them! They've been doing this since 1984, which is a lot longer than 10 (or in the case of HPW, SEVEN) years.

You want to accuse me of making this personal? That's rather juvenile. My interest is in feeding my sugar gliders. I'm not a fan boi unlike SOME.

Originally Posted By: Dancing
There will be those that see this Wambaroo HPS diet as the "next great thing" but how long has this been fed and to how many gliders in what circumstances? And how will not having native Australian flora effect the diet if we try to follow it here?


I'm willing to convey these questions to Mr. Rich, and already have. Again, you can ask him yourself! I'm not trying to be a MouthPiece ... I am simply sharing legwork and questioning I have done and the answers I received. I know, Dancing, that you love Reep's and I respect that. I'm not asking anyone to jump on this bandwagon. Feed what you feel comfortable feeding!

Originally Posted By: Srlb
However this time, we also work with a Nutritionist/Chemist. Keep in mind we are working with CAPTIVE/PET gliders, not wild ones.

It is great that you have a Nutritionist/ Chemist. That's excellent input to have in any diet formulation. The Wombaroo Family is made up of a biochemist, a hospital scientist specialising in microbiology and haematology, a pathologist, an ornithologist and aviculturist, and a Chemical Engineer. That's just in the Rich Family. Not counting the people they hire or veterinarians they work with.

And again - look at the list of Zoos. I'm not seeing any "wild gliders."

Again - I'm not attempting to be a Mouthpiece. If the diet interests you, as it did me, contact Wombaroo and ask your questions yourself! I found it to be educational.
_________________________
Alden
"Animals can communicate quite well. And they do. And generally speaking, they are ignored." Alice Walker


Mom to Valhalla; 6 cats; 1 macaw; 2 hedgehogs;
and very many great gliders!

(plus the 2 skin kids)
valkyriegliders.com

Kyrie, nothing will ever fill the hole you left in my heart.

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#1239965 - 03/16/12 07:52 PM Re: The Wombaroo High Protein Diet (Part One) [Re: ValkyrieMome]
GliderNursery Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 09/14/07
Posts: 20049
Loc: North Central Ohio
Just a friendly reminder of Rule #4 ~
Quote:
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Shelly

Don't sacrifice quality information for convenient information.


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#1239994 - 03/16/12 10:04 PM Re: The Wombaroo High Protein Diet (Part One) [Re: ValkyrieMome]
kitsune Offline
Glider Slave

Registered: 10/18/03
Posts: 1889
Loc: Springfield/Eugene, OR
I know I'm not going to make many people happy with this, but after reading the emails sent about this diet, this is what I see--

I see a powder that was created to fit the needs of arboreal possums, along with a protein booster. I see that this powder is marketed as ideal for sugar gliders, as it is, mixed with water and put over a cookie for palatability. What makes more sense to you? A protein powder that needs a bunch of extra stuff added to make it complete? Or a protein powder that was created without lacking in anything to be fed as it is? You don't take the recipe for Peggy's HPW Complete and add MORE stuff to make it balanced. Peggy took an already formulated and tested diet and added extra ingredients like eggs or honey. It would be like if you got puppy milk for puppies and added a bunch of extra stuff to it. It's just not necessary, and it throws off the balance of the diet. Alden asked the Wombaroo guy what he thought of eggs, honey, etc. being added to this diet, and what he said surprised me--egg yolks are fatty protein, which is already covered in the powder. Egg whites are healthier protein, but they lack a lot of nutrients that are in the powder, so there's no reason to replace the powder's protein with any part of an egg. The honey, at best, is for palatability, and is a bunch of empty calories. The bee pollen is really hard to digest and doesn't add a great deal to the diet (we see evidence in this in their fecals). The original balance was diluted with a bunch of extra ingredients.

After everything I've read from the emails, I'm very excited to try this diet.
_________________________
Beth

mlove Glide free :rbridge: :bb: Dimitri and Tegan :wfb: :rbridge: and right-side up! mlove

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#1240032 - 03/16/12 11:16 PM Re: The Wombaroo High Protein Diet (Part One) [Re: ValkyrieMome]
Dancing Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 09/10/04
Posts: 22746
Loc: 80 acres of paradise in KS
Alden, what makes Reep's work for my gliders IS the Wambaroo High Protein Supplement. But I take the word "supplement" to be just that...a supplement. It is hard for me, after all these years to accept that it could be "enough" as it and not as a "supplement" in their diet.

I SWEAR by the benefits of the Wambaroo HPS. I KNOW it is what saved Reep and gave him all those years he had with me.

And honestly, if just mixing the WHPS with water and pouring it over a biscuit IS as healthy...well, honestly, that would save me time AND money.

But for me...and I'm only speaking for myself and my gliders...I have to go with the "if it isn't broke, don't fix it". I know you remember the bald little guy, Reep, that came to me. It is the WHPS powder that helped him become the gorgeous boy he was meant to be. That speaks volumes to me FOR MY gliders.

I do thank you Alden for contacting Passwell. Gordon is a very nice guy and always very helpful. I look forward to hearing about other Passwell/Wambaroo products as they become available to us here in the US.
_________________________
620-704-9109
Judge not until you have walked in their shoes and lived their lives. What you see online is only part of the story.

I could have missed the pain
But I'd of had to miss the dance


The soul would have no rainbow if the eyes had no tears.

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#1240045 - 03/16/12 11:56 PM Re: The Wombaroo High Protein Diet (Part One) [Re: ValkyrieMome]
kitsune Offline
Glider Slave

Registered: 10/18/03
Posts: 1889
Loc: Springfield/Eugene, OR
Teresa, it IS a supplement. It's not a complete diet. It should be fed with Carnivore and fruits and veggies. But in that sense, BML is a supplement, and so is Peggy's HPW, and Priscilla Price's diet. They just don't have the word in their name. Wombaroo powder isn't a vitamin powder. It's not an additive. Its purpose is to provide a protein base, but it shouldn't be fed alone. It is a protein supplement.
_________________________
Beth

mlove Glide free :rbridge: :bb: Dimitri and Tegan :wfb: :rbridge: and right-side up! mlove

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#1240085 - 03/17/12 08:24 AM Re: The Wombaroo High Protein Diet (Part One) [Re: ValkyrieMome]
GliderNursery Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 09/14/07
Posts: 20049
Loc: North Central Ohio
sounds like Paswell uses the word "supplement" where we use the term "staple" for this diet as both are fed in combination with other food products. None of these diets are complete in and of themselves. dunno
_________________________
Shelly

Don't sacrifice quality information for convenient information.


Glider Nursery

Sugar Glider Foundation



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#1240092 - 03/17/12 08:37 AM Re: The Wombaroo High Protein Diet (Part One) [Re: ValkyrieMome]
DCMuffin Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 03/21/10
Posts: 28202
Loc: Washington D.C. Metro Area
But to me, those two words mean something completely different dunno
_________________________
Aimee & The Monkeys

www.gliderchef.com

www.thejumpinmonkey.com

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#1240122 - 03/17/12 10:53 AM Re: The Wombaroo High Protein Diet (Part One) [Re: ValkyrieMome]
kitsune Offline
Glider Slave

Registered: 10/18/03
Posts: 1889
Loc: Springfield/Eugene, OR
I remember there actually being a bit of checking back and forth with the terminology in the emails as well, like the use of the word "cookie." Was it a cracker? A monkey biscuit? In the UK they call cat food biscuits, which caused some confusion when the US and the UK were comparing diet plans. In the end the intended meaning was arrowroot cookie, which isn't the traditional snickerdoodle, or Nilla Wafer, or anything like that. Before he clarified that he meant arrowroot cookies, I spent a few days wondering what the heck kind of cookie one could use without essentially giving them a diet half made of vanilla oreos with the cream scraped off. Then he had to clarify that iron-fortified toddler arrowroot cookies weren't what he meant, either. Something that is very common and natural in Australia is hard to find here commercially packaged for adults, which seemed to really surprise Gordon.

In any case, the words used to name the diet don't make the diet. Whether it's called a supplement or a staple, it is still intended to be fed the same way and is comparable to what we call a staple in the US. Peggy calls her diets "HPW Complete" and "HPW Plus" when there is actually no High Protein Wombaroo powder in them, and it didn't seem to cause uncertainty.

Remember, this isn't a "new" diet. It's not something someone ran out and made up. This is the originally recommended feeding method that the powder was created for. Already used and successful in Australia. Australians have been working with marsupials far longer than we have. To suggest that the research here in the US, still in its infancy compared to what they know there, is more trustworthy than the information that comes from Australian studies that have spanned decades, is just egotistical. We need to take this opportunity to learn from them. We have been pitched Australian diets before, and we've put them aside due to lack of availability. Well, this one is going to be available. And it's pretty easy to feed, too. Give it a try, ask someone else that's trying it how it's going. Testing it or looking into others' results isn't going to cause any harm. The nutritional analaysis is AT LEAST on par with what we consider a balanced staple. I will be trying this diet as soon as all of the pieces are available, and I'll be happy to let anyone asking know how it's going!
_________________________
Beth

mlove Glide free :rbridge: :bb: Dimitri and Tegan :wfb: :rbridge: and right-side up! mlove

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#1240137 - 03/17/12 11:27 AM Re: The Wombaroo High Protein Diet (Part One) [Re: ValkyrieMome]
Dancing Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 09/10/04
Posts: 22746
Loc: 80 acres of paradise in KS
Beth, you are right. Although we all think we speak English, we in the US don't. We speak American. There is still often language gaps with English speaking countries. Then add in the little "twists" that the Australians add and it can widen that gap a little more.

Reep's diet is the whole thing. I refer to the "staple" as Reep's mix. (because that is the part I have to mix up)

Wording can be very misleading. Such as HPW Complete...it isn't a "complete" diet, it is a "complete" staple/mix. (just add water).

I am interested in the other Wambaroo products and am very willing to keep an open mind. I may even try out half my gliders on it while keeping the other half on the Reep's for comparisons.
_________________________
620-704-9109
Judge not until you have walked in their shoes and lived their lives. What you see online is only part of the story.

I could have missed the pain
But I'd of had to miss the dance


The soul would have no rainbow if the eyes had no tears.

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#1240256 - 03/17/12 06:10 PM Re: The Wombaroo High Protein Diet (Part One) [Re: ValkyrieMome]
JillMarie Offline
Serious Glideritis

Registered: 01/03/09
Posts: 7748
Loc: New Jersey
Just an FYI, Arrowroot flour is high in calcium. wonder if that is why an "arrowroot" cookie is used, as opposed to another type "medium"?
_________________________
:grey: Bosom Buddy Creations:grey:
^website link wink

Remember that God Loves You!

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#1240267 - 03/17/12 06:41 PM Re: The Wombaroo High Protein Diet (Part One) [Re: ValkyrieMome]
ValkyrieMome Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 01/13/07
Posts: 10983
Loc: Denton, TX
Jill - I think you've read the emails? He didn't really specify Arrowroot until I kind of pressed him for examples. Even then he was sort of vague "Oh... arrowroot or some sort of tea biscuit..."

I more glommed onto the arrowroot because I knew it was something I could handle explaining to people on the forum - whereas I would be lost trying to explain "some sort of tea biscuit."

So - I don't think it is for calcium. I think it is literally some sort of "appetizing medium" encouraging the glider to eat some carbs while eating more of the Wombaroo solution.
_________________________
Alden
"Animals can communicate quite well. And they do. And generally speaking, they are ignored." Alice Walker


Mom to Valhalla; 6 cats; 1 macaw; 2 hedgehogs;
and very many great gliders!

(plus the 2 skin kids)
valkyriegliders.com

Kyrie, nothing will ever fill the hole you left in my heart.

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#1240379 - 03/18/12 04:30 AM Re: The Wombaroo High Protein Diet (Part One) [Re: ValkyrieMome]
JillMarie Offline
Serious Glideritis

Registered: 01/03/09
Posts: 7748
Loc: New Jersey
Thanks for clearing that up Alden, it was just a passing thought.
_________________________
:grey: Bosom Buddy Creations:grey:
^website link wink

Remember that God Loves You!

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#1240396 - 03/18/12 08:13 AM Re: The Wombaroo High Protein Diet (Part One) [Re: ValkyrieMome]
Sherri Offline
Glider Addict

Registered: 11/02/06
Posts: 3826
Loc: Big Sandy TN
Originally Posted By: ValkyrieMome
So - I don't think it is for calcium. I think it is literally some sort of "appetizing medium" encouraging the glider to eat some carbs while eating more of the Wombaroo solution.




So it sounds to me like the "cookie" is more like a filler? So really it isn't any different than pouring a staple mix over a few pellets. Which in turn the pellets would be the equivelant to the carnivore diet that they use over there?

I feed a few pellets (Happy Glider Chicken) sprinkled on top of my Complete a few times a week. My gliders love their pellets wether they are soaked in Complete or dry.

In my opinion most of our diets are no different than what they are doing, the only difference is that they have more natural foods that we can't get here. But if you think about it ours really arent any different. And I am talking about ALL of our diets here in the US.
_________________________
sherri

Forever home to a wide variety of animals, domestic, farm and exotic.
My passion is my little suggie sweethearts! 731-441-9814


http://www.newbysglidernook.com/index.html

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#1240404 - 03/18/12 09:21 AM Re: The Wombaroo High Protein Diet (Part One) [Re: ValkyrieMome]
ValkyrieMome Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 01/13/07
Posts: 10983
Loc: Denton, TX
I think the big differences here are:
1) MUCH less honey. It is a digestible ingredient for gliders, and they do enjoy it. However, gliders fed a diet with larger amounts of honey don't seem to willingly eat fruits as much. In my opinion, fruits are another digestible ingredient which gliders enjoy, yet have many other nutrients.

2) No eggs - eggs are both fatty and have dilute proteins.

3) No bee pollen - which is apparently difficult for gliders to digest, making it a protein source which is not nutritionally available to them.

4) Simplicity - this is a very basic, yet complete diet that I can mix up fresh each night. For those people who do not wish to feed HPW Complete for whatever reason, this is a great option. Personally, I believe in the Wombaroo product, and that's why I was still feeding Original HPW. Since the HPW Complete has no Wombaroo product, I haven't fed it and will not.

5) This form of feeding was developed with the input of several scientists, veterinarians and people with other advanced degrees. They are also people who study the nutritional needs of marsupials in a country with many native marsupials. Maybe it is just me - but I see that as advice I would like to take about feeding my gliders.

Ko - a carer in Australia - has put input on the thread on GG. Since he (is Ko a he or a she?) is also someone with on-the-ground, hands-on experience with gliders in Australia, this is another source of input I personally value over the input of American lay-people.

Just about... uh ... 0% of the diet is made up of "natural foods we can't get here."

I'm not really concerned about whether anyone jumps on board or not! I had done some leg-work with this, and had learned information I haven't seen posted anywhere else. I post entirely to let others know these things I learned. After that, do with it what you will! If you are happy with the diet you are feeding, please don't change!

If, like me, you were continuing to wonder and question and want more for your gliders, you might consider giving this a try.
_________________________
Alden
"Animals can communicate quite well. And they do. And generally speaking, they are ignored." Alice Walker


Mom to Valhalla; 6 cats; 1 macaw; 2 hedgehogs;
and very many great gliders!

(plus the 2 skin kids)
valkyriegliders.com

Kyrie, nothing will ever fill the hole you left in my heart.

Top
#1240427 - 03/18/12 10:56 AM Re: The Wombaroo High Protein Diet (Part One) [Re: ValkyrieMome]
Sherri Offline
Glider Addict

Registered: 11/02/06
Posts: 3826
Loc: Big Sandy TN
I think we have different idea's of what Mr. Rich's emails actually said. I have read them as well and didn't interept it any way that you did Alden. I'm not understanding where you had gotten the information that you did from the same email's that I read. Could you please clarify or post the original email in its entirety so that others can make their own opinions based off the whole conversation between you and Mr. Rich? Rather than the bits and pieces you chose to quote.
_________________________
sherri

Forever home to a wide variety of animals, domestic, farm and exotic.
My passion is my little suggie sweethearts! 731-441-9814


http://www.newbysglidernook.com/index.html

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