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#1247 - 01/05/03 04:24 AM RE: Circulation damage to tail from Shock?
Judie Offline
Serious Glideritis

Registered: 10/25/01
Posts: 9173
Loc: Edwardsville, Kansas 66113
It is not often I myself have a sick glider. In fact of all the years I have been breeding...I cannot remember ever having a really sick little one of my own. Decided to post this to the board...as it is through experience of others we learn how to deal with medical problems of our own.

Last night I was out in the glider room with the trays of food and when I set them down I noticed a baby glider on the lower shelf of one cage. Pagota and Hydee have 4 wk. oop. twins. Baby was just laying there and spread eagle, ears flattened which gives that severly depressed look with her eyes closed.

When I removed her she was lifeless and severly cold. Eyes barely opened when I picked her up and hardly any response to stimuli. I took her into the house, got the fluids and syringe out, and started heating blankies. After giving sub q injection of fluids and trying to warm her for over a half hour...and getting nowhere I decided to try a drop of honey between her lips. Gosh...it was so thick...it just sort of sat there between her lips and teeth. Her mouth was clamped shut. Got out the juice...filled a syringe with .40ml and forced her mouth open and with the french cath slid it over her tongue and to the back of her throat. Got the juice down her. Within 20 min or so ....she began to perk up somewhat to where one knew she was still alive.

At 10:30pm...I met Dr.Findley at the clinic. Gave her a shot of Baytrill. Baby was still somewhat warm but not warm like she should be. He instructed me to continue the juice and fluids sub q throughout the night. Then told me "Good Luck" as I was going out the door. Made me think he did not expect to see me at 10 am the next am.

Well, we made it through the night. Kept the baby in a pouch and stuffed her under my night clothing. Was up every three hours with her. She was now taking 1.0ml of juice everytime I fed her. Gave her her sub q injection. She was well hydrated by 3am.

At 10am we were back at Findley's office for another shot of Baytril. He said to continue the TLC. When I got home I fed her some BML and then put her back with her parents and held her brother for about 2 hours to give the little girl time to nurse milk off of mom. Returned the brother around 1pm.

So far all is going fairly well. But we are still not out of the woods yet. I noticed this evening she tilts her head slightly to the left...and indication of a possible ear infection...probably from the head cold she has. And another problem is her tail...there appears to be no life in about a third or so of it from the tip upwards. Wondering if the tail has been damaged due to possible lack of good circulation when she was in shock? If this is the result of damage from lack of circulation to her tail then half of it will have to be amputated. The ear thing...I am hoping it is just an infection and meds will clear it up.

Well, guess I will call Dr. Bradley in the morning and ask for her openion.

Wonder if anyone here on the board has ever had or known of a glider with damage to the tail from lack of circulation during shock? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />
_________________________
Web site: www.MyLittleGremlin.com

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#1248 - 01/05/03 04:50 AM Re: RE: Circulation damage to tail from Shock? [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Judie,
could she have fell from a higher area down and damaged the tail like that ?

If and depending how long she was in shock she could possible regain some function in her tail ?

I don't know, i'm not the expert, LOL.
But those are my thoughts.

Tanja

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#1249 - 01/05/03 05:16 AM Re: RE: Circulation damage to tail from Shock? [Re: ]
Judie Offline
Serious Glideritis

Registered: 10/25/01
Posts: 9173
Loc: Edwardsville, Kansas 66113
I have felt down the tail...there does not appear to be any joints that feel out of place nor swollen nor any bites on it. The nesting container was on the middle shelf. and she was not far from it. She does not have any feeling in it when it is pricked. It is limp and appears to have no feeling in the distal half of it. <img border="0" alt="cry" title="" src="graemlins/crying.gif" />

I have just hand fed her and her brother. She is warm and is very spunky. Still has the sniffles.
_________________________
Web site: www.MyLittleGremlin.com

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#1250 - 01/05/03 08:36 AM Re: RE: Circulation damage to tail from Shock? [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Awwwwww Judie,

Try to dwell on the good part of it... if she's better that is better than anything, she can live without part of her tail, but she couldn't live, and wouldn't hadn't you taken such great care of her.
I know it's sad, but what else can you do ?

Tanja

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#1251 - 01/05/03 09:58 AM Re: RE: Circulation damage to tail from Shock? [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Judie: There are 5 main forms of shock: hypovolemic shock, neurogenic shock, allergic shock, septic shock and cardiogenic shock. Is it possible that shock could have led to decreased blood circulation in the tail? The answer is yes. However, the type of shock would most likely be of a septic nature given that the joey has a head cold and possible ear infection. Septic shock results from bacterial infection wherein certain organisms/microorganisms contain a toxin which seems to act on blood vessels when the toxin is released into the bloodstream. The blood eventually pools within parts of the circulatory system that expand easily, causing blood pressure to drop sharply. Gram-negative shock is a form of septic shock due to gram-negative bacterial infection. The good news is the joey is receiving Baytril treatment for possible bacterial infection which will hopefully knock out the bacterial infection. However, you may want to discuss the merits of a culture & sensitivity test with your vet in order to be sure Baytril is the appropriate antibiotic for treatment of the bacterial infection.

As for the fact that the lower third of the joey's tail seems limp and has no apparent pain sensation upon pinprick, it is conceivable that septic shock might be responsible for a loss of blood circulation given the fact the tail is mostly cartilage, and that cartilaginous tissue tends to have poor blood circulation to begin with. If septic shock did cause impaired blood circulation in the tail, will it be of a permanent nature? It's hard to say. You may wish to try very gentle massage of the tail 4-5 times/day. Also, as strange as it sounds, you may want to try gently wrapping a warm damp washcloth around the joey's tail several times/day as moist heat might help improve circulation somewhat. Other than that, there is not much else you can do except monitor the tail to watch for signs of hair loss and/or possible signs of dry gangrene which would start from the tip of the tail:

1) lack of sensation in the involved tissue (which seems to be noted but might be temporary).
2) gradual shrinkage of the involved tissue.
3) coldness of the involved tissue.
4) brown and then black discoloration of the
involved area. Usually a line of demarcation
is formed where the dry gangrene stops owing
to the fact that tissue above this line
continues to receive an adequate blood supply.

Dry gangrene occurs only in the extremities, occurs gradually & results from a reduction of blood flow in the arteries. With dry gangrene, there is no subsequent bacterial decomposition. Rather, the tissues simply become dry & shriveled. Generally, there is not really any pain associated with dry gangrene as with moist and gas gangrene because of the fact that bacteria and/or bacterial toxins are not involved in dry gangrene as they are in moist and gas gangrene. Should the joey develop dry gangrene, then, of course, partial tail amputation would become necessary.

I hope the above info. is of some help to you. I will keep this little one in my prayers. The fact that she has made it so far indicates a will to live and is a testament to how well you care for your gliders and seek vet help for your gliders as soon as you notice something is wrong. <img border="0" alt="thumb" title="" src="graemlins/thumb.gif" />

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#1252 - 01/05/03 11:12 PM Re: RE: Circulation damage to tail from Shock? [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Judie - I can't offer any medical advice but please know I will be thinking of you and Baby. Hopefully, all will be well. If not, well, Bugsy has a short tail (couple or 4 inches missing) and it doesn't bother him a bit! If amputation becomes necessary, sad as it will be, she will still have a normal life and be a very happy girl. Hope this can lift your spirits a bit. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

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#1253 - 01/05/03 11:31 PM Re: RE: Circulation damage to tail from Shock? [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Unfortunately, I can offer no help here. Please know I will be praying for you and Baby.

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#1254 - 01/05/03 12:01 PM Re: RE: Circulation damage to tail from Shock? [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Oh Judie, I really hope all is well with your little girl. I can not offer any help but I will be thinking about her and really hope that she regains feeling in her tail <img border="0" alt="heart" title="" src="graemlins/heartpump.gif" />

Thank you

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#1255 - 01/05/03 01:32 PM Re: RE: Circulation damage to tail from Shock? [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Judie...she's a lucky girl considering you knew what to do as soon as you found her. She's in good hands and I'm sure she will be fine even if part of her tail has to go. Keep us updated on the little one.
Prayers coming your way,
Steph

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#1256 - 01/06/03 01:00 AM Re: RE: Circulation damage to tail from Shock? [Re: Izzyandrileysmom]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Judie
Hows the little one doing?

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#1257 - 01/06/03 01:32 AM Re: RE: Circulation damage to tail from Shock? [Re: ]
Judie Offline
Serious Glideritis

Registered: 10/25/01
Posts: 9173
Loc: Edwardsville, Kansas 66113
I will take her back to the vet in the morning. Still has congestion in her nose along with the possible ear problem. I will request a culture done. Have to call Bradley tomorrow as to what kind of meds I can use on her. Findly does not want to give anymore Baytrill because she is sooo little. Have no idea what is safe now. Tail is drooping...lifeless so to speak. Have terrible fears of it just falling off. Silly I know. She was near death the night befor and I do not want her to get in that shape again if at all possible to prevent. <img border="0" alt="cry" title="" src="graemlins/crying.gif" />

I do not want to loose this little one. But without some sort of safe medication...she will go down hill. Hoping the sun will shine in the morning and all will not be so bleak. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />
_________________________
Web site: www.MyLittleGremlin.com

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#1258 - 01/06/03 01:55 AM Re: RE: Circulation damage to tail from Shock? [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Poor baby. You are trying your hardest, and hopefully she will meant to be on earth with us. My prayers for this little one, and as always your efforts are so commended.
<img border="0" alt="heart" title="" src="graemlins/heartpump.gif" /> <img border="0" alt="glider" title="" src="graemlins/littleglider.gif" /> <img border="0" alt="heart" title="" src="graemlins/heartpump.gif" />

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#1259 - 01/06/03 02:48 AM Re: RE: Circulation damage to tail from Shock? [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Judy,
I knw how worried you are about this lil one form talking to you the last few dyas since Friday night .. She is still in my thoughts and prayers... and So are you ... YOu are an awsome lady, breeder, mom , grandma and owner ... I feel so lucky to be abel to call you a friend of mine . If it had not been for you .. your lil girl would have had no hope and So would have mine this weekend thank you for talking me threw this and listing to me babel and cry via messanger and phone .

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#1260 - 01/06/03 05:36 AM Re: RE: Circulation damage to tail from Shock? [Re: ]
Critter Creations Offline
Glider Addict

Registered: 11/02/00
Posts: 3398
Loc: Rock Falls, IL, USA
Judie I can offer you no advice, but know that you are both in our thoughts and prayers. That little girl and all your gliders are so lucky to have such a great owner. You are so great with these wonderous creatures and I can't think of anyone that could give her better care than her. The fact that she is still alive and thriving is testimony to that.
_________________________
Danielle
owned by 4 dogs and 2 gliders really soon
Formerly known as K & D Exotics


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#1261 - 01/06/03 09:36 AM Re: RE: Circulation damage to tail from Shock? [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Judie: I understand the concerns about antibiotics given the joey is only 4 weeks OOP and Baytril is the least harsh antibiotic. However, if the Baytril has not worked well and the C&S indicates another antibiotic would work better, you will have to weigh the risks of using an antibiotic against the risks of what may happen if no further medication is given for this little one. Please keep us updated on how your little <img border="0" alt="angel" title="" src="graemlins/frostyangel.gif" /> is doing.

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#1262 - 01/06/03 10:47 AM Re: RE: Circulation damage to tail from Shock? [Re: ]
Judie Offline
Serious Glideritis

Registered: 10/25/01
Posts: 9173
Loc: Edwardsville, Kansas 66113
Well...the tail is being chewed on...not sure if the parents or if the little one is doing it. Bone is crooked and I suspect this is from someones teeth crushing the bones. Hair is thined on it too. Having to pull the baby now to keep parents from chewing on her. vet appointment at 2:30pm.
_________________________
Web site: www.MyLittleGremlin.com

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#1263 - 01/06/03 11:08 PM Re: RE: Circulation damage to tail from Shock? [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Oh JUdy , I am soo sorry <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> big louder prayers heading your way She is very lucky to have you as a grandma let me know what the vet says..

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#1264 - 01/06/03 02:16 PM Re: RE: Circulation damage to tail from Shock? [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


oh Judie,

I cannot offer advice either but Im here for you as well as the many other glider family members...Many prayers sent your way. You are the best Glider Grandma there is!!

Your little joey is lucky to have you! <img border="0" alt="heart" title="" src="graemlins/heartpump.gif" />

Your in my thoughts!! <img border="0" alt="angel" title="" src="graemlins/frostyangel.gif" />

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#1265 - 01/06/03 03:38 PM Re: RE: Circulation damage to tail from Shock? [Re: ]
Judie Offline
Serious Glideritis

Registered: 10/25/01
Posts: 9173
Loc: Edwardsville, Kansas 66113
Well it seems all problems are from an inner ear infection.

vet and I discussed the risk of continuing the Baytrill due to studies done in dogs and bone problems. Seems, they do not even give Baytrill to cats because of the side effects. However, since the alternative would be death to the baby...vet suggested to continue the Baytrill injections once a day. Asked for a C&S but vet told me her little ears are too small and he more than likly would not be able to get anything without doing damage and best thing to do is treat with the Baytrill.

As for her tail...will have to deal with this problem in 7-10 days with the idea she will be over the hump from the inner ear problem. Too risky for surgery at this point.

<small>[ 01-06-2003, 04:43 PM: Message edited by: Judie ]</small>
_________________________
Web site: www.MyLittleGremlin.com

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#1266 - 01/06/03 03:43 PM Re: RE: Circulation damage to tail from Shock? [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Judy,
I am sorry to hear about this , Will be praying that the baytril works for her .. nad her tail will heal as well , with her away from her parents at least you will be able to tell if she did the chewing on her tail herself or if ehr parents did it <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" /> I am still praying and pulling for her . you are also in my thoughts and prayers...

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#1267 - 01/06/03 03:45 PM Re: RE: Circulation damage to tail from Shock? [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


I'm so sorry Judie - be assured that you will both be in my prayers. <img border="0" alt="heart" title="" src="graemlins/heartpump.gif" />

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#1268 - 01/07/03 06:47 PM Re: RE: Circulation damage to tail from Shock? [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


How is this little one doing?? <img border="0" alt="heart" title="" src="graemlins/heartpump.gif" />

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#1269 - 01/07/03 09:38 PM Re: RE: Circulation damage to tail from Shock? [Re: ]
Judie Offline
Serious Glideritis

Registered: 10/25/01
Posts: 9173
Loc: Edwardsville, Kansas 66113
1/3 of the tail came off today. Now the remainder up to about an inch from the base is swollen. Guess it is all going to fall off now.

I called the vets. Will take the baby into the office in the morning again. Guess we will shave the hair off of the tail to see what it looks like. Findley seems to think it is inflamation of the cellular walls inside the tail. He seems to feel the inner ear infection is under control from the Baytrill. I do not understand why the tail is now swelled....as it was not swollen befor this. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> Not sure if anti inflamatory drugs can be used at this stage of the babies developement. I asked about trying to draw fluid out of it and then perhaps lancing it if there was infection. He told me there would not be much of anything to draw out.

Baby is eating and appears to be functioning fine. Head does not appear to be tilted as much...ear moves now with sound.

The two joeys who were equal in size...there is a noticable differance. The healthy joey is almost twice the size now.

Guess we will go back to the clinic tomorrow and re-evaluated the situation.

<small>[ 01-07-2003, 10:47 PM: Message edited by: Judie ]</small>
_________________________
Web site: www.MyLittleGremlin.com

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#1270 - 01/07/03 09:47 PM Re: RE: Circulation damage to tail from Shock? [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Judie,

I am so sorry that your joey had to lose 1/3 of her tail. I hope she fully recovers from this and her ear infection.
I will be keeping yourself and her in my thoughts <img border="0" alt="heart" title="" src="graemlins/heartpump.gif" />

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#1271 - 01/07/03 10:19 PM Re: RE: Circulation damage to tail from Shock? [Re: ]
alice33 Offline
Glider Slave

Registered: 07/18/01
Posts: 1693
Loc: St. Louis and Key West
Judie-most of my 'ear experience' is with humans, so I don't know if I can help. In a human, if the infection is in the inner ear, there would be dizziness and, possibly vertigo (if semicircular canals are effected). If there's any exudate, then (assuming an intact eardrum) it would be an external ear infection. If your vet doesn't have a scope with a very small probe, you can probably find a bird vet that has one. Petunia has a chronic external otitis and/or impacted wax. I took her to a clinic in Florida that is a 'referral clinic' which apparently means that they have more sophisticated equipment to see the cases vets refer to them when they don't know how to treat a problem. The Florida vet collected a sample, looked at it under the microscope to get some info on the gross characteristics, then sent it off for culture and sensitivities. It sounds like Dr. Findley is uncomfortable probing the ear canal-is there anyone else around who sees small birds? What about the Kansas City Zoo? Is there a vet school? I know there's one in Columbia that my vet calls sometimes. He also calls former classmates/colleagues in other cities. Sorry I'm rambling. Prayers coming your way along with advice. alice
_________________________
Don't pursue happiness - create it.
(fortune cookie wisdom)

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#1272 - 01/08/03 12:49 AM Re: RE: Circulation damage to tail from Shock? [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Judie, when we were putting Sweet Pea on antibiotics my vet had the same concerns over Baytril, so we used Amoxicillin. Good luck with this little one, hopefully she will pull thru with at least a little bit of her little tail!
Saying prayers, and sending glider hugs to little girl!
Chey

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#1273 - 01/08/03 12:58 AM Re: RE: Circulation damage to tail from Shock? [Re: ]
Judie Offline
Serious Glideritis

Registered: 10/25/01
Posts: 9173
Loc: Edwardsville, Kansas 66113
vet did not want to use amoxacillian. He felt the Baytrill was the safest dispite the side effects. All antibiotics have side affects so this is nothing that I am concerned with at this time.

If the rest of the tail dies and falls off, my baby is going to look like he had his tail docked.
By the way, he is a little boy and not a female.LOL He is so cute...he does look like a she. And is this baby ever soooo soooo sweet.

I tried to encourage him to eat out of a food dish this evening but he has trouble balancing on the rim of the dish and falling off. Finally gave in and fed him with the syringe of which he dearly loves to eat from.

<small>[ 01-08-2003, 06:36 AM: Message edited by: Judie ]</small>
_________________________
Web site: www.MyLittleGremlin.com

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#1274 - 01/08/03 08:50 AM Re: RE: Circulation damage to tail from Shock? [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Judie: when Tyler's tail circulation problem began, the area was red and inflamed at first. Then the tissue began to blacken & fall away due to the dry gangrene. If the vet feels your joey can tolerate it, it would be best to get the tail amputation done as soon as possible if dry gangrene is in the early stages as it will slowly work its way up the tail. By doing the amputation into healthy tissue approx. 1/4 to 1/2 inch above the line of demarcation (if one can be observed), it will help to save as much of the tail as possible.

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#1275 - 01/11/03 09:10 PM Re: RE: Circulation damage to tail from Shock? [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


How is this little boy doing??

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#1276 - 01/19/03 01:21 AM Re: RE: Circulation damage to tail from Shock? [Re: ]
Judie Offline
Serious Glideritis

Registered: 10/25/01
Posts: 9173
Loc: Edwardsville, Kansas 66113
Well, guess it is time to update on this little guy.

The ear problem was solved with the Baytril. Baby no longer tilts his head and the ear now is up and moves like normal.

As for the tail problem...vet did not want to do amputation due to him being so ill. So, yesterday I took him into the clinic to get his tail docked. It is now about 1 inch in length. But that was not the end. I had scheduled two neuters. One was for a baby going to St. Louis and the other was for a client who was coming from Neb. Well, due to the snow the client canceled. Instructions were...to neuter the baby with the long tail. Dock tail on little one who had the tail problem.

When I went to pick up my two boys.....guess what? The babies were both neutered. Mistake by the attending vet who did one of the neuters.

Tonight...the little one is with his parents along with his sister. I have seen him out and playing so I reckon dispite all he has been through....he is one little tough baby. He is half the size of his sister but I am hoping in time he will hit a big growth spurt. If not...he sure has a big heart. He will make someone a wonderfull pet and I will surely miss him when he leaves my home. <img border="0" alt="heart" title="" src="graemlins/heartpump.gif" />
_________________________
Web site: www.MyLittleGremlin.com

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