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#1301218 - 10/27/12 12:15 PM Dr brust?
JMD Offline
Out of Pouch

Registered: 10/25/12
Posts: 54
Loc: Texas, USA
I have only been on this forum a few days and I have already had at least one person talk in disdain for this guy?? Should I not listen to what he has to say? Does he have an agenda? Seems like alotnofngood info?? From my personal research i think his 75% pellet diet will not harm these little guys but I would rather spend a little more and go with another diet. Other then that is what he is saying BULL?

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#1301222 - 10/27/12 12:22 PM Re: Dr brust? [Re: JMD]
ValkyrieMome Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 01/13/07
Posts: 10983
Loc: Denton, TX
Dr. Brust is allegedly on the payroll of the largest mill broker in the country. All of the "good information" that he promotes is information that THEY promote. Their diet, their care directions, etc.

I personally would NEVER go to that man as a vet.
_________________________
Alden
"Animals can communicate quite well. And they do. And generally speaking, they are ignored." Alice Walker


Mom to Valhalla; 6 cats; 1 macaw; 2 hedgehogs;
and very many great gliders!

(plus the 2 skin kids)
valkyriegliders.com

Kyrie, nothing will ever fill the hole you left in my heart.

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#1301223 - 10/27/12 12:22 PM Re: Dr brust? [Re: JMD]
xSwtxSugaX Offline
Glider Addict

Registered: 11/21/10
Posts: 3456
Loc: Saint Louis MO
We highly recommend that you do not take his info into consideration. Its been brought up many times that its a possibility he is on there pay roll. We do not encourage the thumb technique. And the fact he is a vet and encourages it makes everything else come into question. Ive watched a few of his videos and often scratched my head afterword in confusion, or just been plain upset. So I havnt watched anymore. You cannot force a glider to love you, and sticking your thumb in there mouth is def not going to get them to love you.
_________________________
"The purity of a person's heart can be quickly measured by how they regard animals"

*Stitch* :grey: *Button* :wfb: *Charlie* :leu:

Cats: Rista and Cali

~*Stacie*~

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#1301224 - 10/27/12 12:28 PM Re: Dr brust? [Re: JMD]
Drea Offline
Glider Slave

Registered: 09/01/12
Posts: 1637
Loc: New York
It's just, for me personally - I could never take the advice of someone whose life is centered around mistreatment of animals. It's well known throughout the community that he is a mill breeder, that his joeys are too young when they leave home, that they often have worms or other illnesses and parasites and that his sales pitch is a 100% lie. Which means his life is kind of a lie in a way, because that's what he does every single day.
So, for me, I would never be able to trust someone like that. I want my breeder & vet to be very honest people. I need them to be. I need to know what my glider honestly needs so I can get it to him or her. There have been so many glider deaths because vets have either not known what they're talking about or misinformed about illnesses. You just want someone that knows what they're talking about to be handling a pet that you could have for 10-15 years. Gliders really are an investment in time and money, but I can honestly say to you JMD, they are the best thing I have ever invested my money in.
I hope this helps you <3 smile
_________________________
-~~~ Drea ~~~- <3

super ecstatic mama to:
:bb: weebay (lil'boy) &&&&
:bb: beeble (lil'girl) &&&&
:rtmo: Tay-Bee (baby girl) <33333

Call or Text anytime for glider help - 570-850-2101 <3

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#1301233 - 10/27/12 12:36 PM Re: Dr brust? [Re: JMD]
Terry Offline
Glider Addict

Registered: 04/29/12
Posts: 4963
Loc: Maryland
He fooled me too at first, he sounds like he cares deeply about the gliders but....

He does support the PP, and this is how I rationally came to the conclusion to listen to forum members over Dr. Brust and PP.

Think of how PP sells the gliders, forget their spiel, the can sound like they're making sense and tell people what they want to hear. How easy it is to keep these adorable little creatures as pets. But here are just 2 facts that really convinced me they were wrong. They were enough for me to tip the scales in the forums favor.

Fact 1
Gliders are nocturnal, that means, as I'm sure you know that they are active at night and their eyes better function in darkness over light. When they are in brightly lit environment, they cannot see as well, this can lead to them feeling scared and insecure.

How does PP sell Sugar Gliders? During the day & evenings in brightly lit malls, with at times crowds of people and loud noises. How do you think that makes them feel?

I asked myself that question, and came to the conclusion that it was actually inconsiderate to put these precious creatures through that stress, minus the travel and unfamiliar places.

edit in: Think of how you would feel being wakened late at night, when you should be sleeping and taken to a strange, noisy place that's dark and you can't see what's going on too well.

Fact 2
Gliders are colony animals, which means, as I'm sure you are aware, they are happiest and less stressed when with at least a partner glider or glider mate. (Doesn't have to be a mating pair, can be 2 of same sex, if males neutered or neutered male and female).

What does PP say? They say you can have just one glider and if you spend enough time with him/her and carry pet around all day, they will thrive just fine as a single glider.

I asked myself, how can such a social and communal creature be possibly happy with out one of it's own kind around? I could go on and on about how gliders need fellow glider companions, humans, though they may bond with just do not replace the social needs of gliders.

If those 2 facts alone didn't convince me, I would still be debating on whether or not to get gliders, because both sides make points that appear to make sense. But after taking into consideration these truths about gliders, I could easily determine who to trust.



Edited by Terry (10/27/12 12:39 PM)
_________________________
Lives with:
1 God
1 dog, (Willow)
2 Sugies, (Ollie & Skadoosh)
R.I.P. Lulu (2/28/12-10/13/17)

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#1301237 - 10/27/12 12:57 PM Re: Dr brust? [Re: JMD]
xSwtxSugaX Offline
Glider Addict

Registered: 11/21/10
Posts: 3456
Loc: Saint Louis MO
Nicely said Terry,


It amazes me how easily us humans can be talked into something. At the time it makes sense, but man-o-man after you own them and learn to understand them, the things you are told by those companies dont make sense at all.

for example:

Heat rocks- Altho gliders are from warmer territory in the wild, im sure there are times that the temp drops below there comfort level. Do they plug in a heat rock and lounge on it? No they all find shelter, cudle up into one big ball and keep warm. They do the same thing in there pouch at my house every night. And what is any animals instinct when it comes to cords? BITE IT! Heat rocks were made for reptiles, and reptile enthusiasts wont even use them because they burn the animals.

Cage size- Sugargliders are tree dwellers. Put them in a small cage and they go crazy. Trust me I know. My first glider was housed in a small cage. She did flips around the top of it and constantly paced. We thought it was her way of having fun. But soon found out it was boredom/depression/ and anxiety from being trapped in a tiny space.

No vet care- Please tell me what animal on the planet or human for that matter doesnt get sick? Never understood this lie.

Survive on bread and a apple- Now I know PP has gotten alot better with there diet but there are companies out there that tell you a piece of bread, and a apple sprinkled with nutrients is all they need. I know in the wild they are sap suckers, bug and rodent killers, and eat various fruits. There is no way bread, apple, and vitamans come close to meeting there needs. Also table scraps? They are exotic animals, a treat here and there are good, but im not going to give them my leftover spaghetti and meat balls or filet minon from the night before. :roflmao:


These are just a few examples, and like I said once you get a pair of your own, everything starts to click and make sense. You see how they act, you see what they need. smile
_________________________
"The purity of a person's heart can be quickly measured by how they regard animals"

*Stitch* :grey: *Button* :wfb: *Charlie* :leu:

Cats: Rista and Cali

~*Stacie*~

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#1301241 - 10/27/12 01:19 PM Re: Dr brust? [Re: Terry]
JMD Offline
Out of Pouch

Registered: 10/25/12
Posts: 54
Loc: Texas, USA
Terry I do t want to argue... And I enjoy all of your info...
Bright lights in a mall not be fun... But it's a far cry from torture... I've seen them in the malls and they are all snuggled up and sleeping... Or in pouches sleeping... None seem bothered T all and much less torutred... To me it's not different then going to a pet store that hS cats or dogs in a cage ??? Is it clean and healthy!??? Yes is it as good as your home snuggled up on your couch? No but far cry from mis treatment??

Fact two..... If I used your same logic then dogs are all pack animals... And everyone owning 1 dog is abusing it and its living a horrible life?? I think we know that's not true... Just because certain animals are pack or colony animals does not mean they suffer alone ... Just like dogs make us humans there packs... A lot of researching says gliders make us humans their colony.. Sme dogs love living Lone some love a mate... I'm sure it's the same for gliders...
Just the thought on my mind... I am taking grain of salt with everything I hear including on here since I am new to all this... Of course most of you guys prob think that I am a criminal because I shoot a few wild hogs and one deer a year for food for my family... But trust me my dogs will never be eaten lol not the gliders to come

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#1301244 - 10/27/12 01:39 PM Re: Dr brust? [Re: JMD]
Drea Offline
Glider Slave

Registered: 09/01/12
Posts: 1637
Loc: New York
Actually dogs aren't pack animals. That has been widely debated by dog professionals for a long time. Because dogs are not exotic pets (unlike sugar gliders who are exotics), dogs are completely domesticated, which if you read this article has created a genetically predisposed disposition towards females. In the wild dogs are pack animals because they need help scavenging food to survive. However, in domestication dogs rely on people to survive and that completely obliterates their "pack" need. You bath your dog, you can never bath your sugar glider. They need to bath one another, and groom one another. Your dog has fur coat that will keep it warm when the temperature is low, or you can put a shirt, jacket or sweatshirt on your dog. You can never clothe or warm a sugar glider. They need their nest mate. Also, sugar gliders are nocturnal - they need that 4 am partner to be awake and racing and playing with them in their cage.
I work as a veterinary assistant, and have watched this information be proven through my work.
Are dogs true pack animals?

Also, the point Terry was making about them being in brightly lit areas - they are nocturnal. That means that unlike every animal you would find in a pet store, they NEVER come out during the day. They don't like bright lights, if you owned a sugar glider you would see that when you turn a bright light on in the room that their cage is in they will usually retreat back to their pouch. So, bright light is torture for them to be forced to be active in, I would agree that when they are sleeping it is ok but when they are forced to "glide" like I have seen Pocket Pets member do, that is torture. They do not like the bright light and are not active in it.

Both of Terry's points were very good, and well taken for sugar glider owners.
_________________________
-~~~ Drea ~~~- <3

super ecstatic mama to:
:bb: weebay (lil'boy) &&&&
:bb: beeble (lil'girl) &&&&
:rtmo: Tay-Bee (baby girl) <33333

Call or Text anytime for glider help - 570-850-2101 <3

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#1301246 - 10/27/12 01:41 PM Re: Dr brust? [Re: JMD]
JMD Offline
Out of Pouch

Registered: 10/25/12
Posts: 54
Loc: Texas, USA
Another thing... And no offense to ANYONE on here... I am here for real information to educate myself before I buy gliders....

But as soon as I hear these words... And I've heard them a lot on here...
" imagine how they feel" or "what if you were being treated that way"
I discredit pretty much everything because they are animals not humans and do not have the same feelings and emotions that humans do ..... I'm sure some of you humans think that they do have human feelings and emotions but I'm sorry there is no science to prove that lol

You are not their mothers, and they don't think that you are... They love you because you feed them, and give them attention

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#1301250 - 10/27/12 01:45 PM Re: Dr brust? [Re: JMD]
JMD Offline
Out of Pouch

Registered: 10/25/12
Posts: 54
Loc: Texas, USA
Drea. Turn 5 dogs that were raised in homes for years together in the wild and tell me what happens... They form a pack and survive ... I live out in the country in Texas and dogs that are fed every night by an owner still gathers with other dogs in the are to run in packs sorry but its just a fact thAt dogs are pack animals by nature... We humans force them not to be. And give them human emotions and feelings...

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#1301251 - 10/27/12 01:47 PM Re: Dr brust? [Re: JMD]
Drea Offline
Glider Slave

Registered: 09/01/12
Posts: 1637
Loc: New York
If you read that article, it's written by a forum of dog specialists, and it is scientifically proven. I actually addressed wild dogs and why there are exempt from this in my post.

Either way, I was making a point that gliders do need a colony mate to remain happy and healthy in most cases.
_________________________
-~~~ Drea ~~~- <3

super ecstatic mama to:
:bb: weebay (lil'boy) &&&&
:bb: beeble (lil'girl) &&&&
:rtmo: Tay-Bee (baby girl) <33333

Call or Text anytime for glider help - 570-850-2101 <3

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#1301253 - 10/27/12 01:51 PM Re: Dr brust? [Re: JMD]
Terry Offline
Glider Addict

Registered: 04/29/12
Posts: 4963
Loc: Maryland
First, about hunting, I can't speak for everyone, but although I'm not a fan of it, I don't judge others for hunting for food for their families, for trophy kills, maybe, but not for food, and I feel the same about fishing.

I understand your points, but don't entirely agree, as you may not agree with mine.

I didn't say that the gliders were tortured, I merely pointed out the fact that they're taken from their natural sleep time and brought out into bright, and sometimes noisy environments, for selling purposes. I don't think that's so pleasant for them, and is not ideal.

As far as dogs, yes they're pack animals. I do not advocate having a dog that is left home alone all day, every day for long hours while everyone is working, unless they have the companionship of another dog or (even a cat when raised together and are companions). Dogs are diurnal and should have companionship during their wake time for the majority of the day. They are out of cages, typically when around their people, although some are crated at times. My dog is an only dog, but is rarely left alone for long periods of time, a few hours at the most on occasions. She also sleeps with us most the night (when she wants more space she'll leave the bed). So she has a pack to cuddle with for sleep time. A sugar glider will not have someone to cuddle with while sleeping during the day. At night, the large percentage of their awake time, we are sleeping in most cases, so they don't have a playmate for the majority of their wake time. Keeping a single glider is not the ideal.
_________________________
Lives with:
1 God
1 dog, (Willow)
2 Sugies, (Ollie & Skadoosh)
R.I.P. Lulu (2/28/12-10/13/17)

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#1301255 - 10/27/12 01:55 PM Re: Dr brust? [Re: JMD]
DCMuffin Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 03/21/10
Posts: 28202
Loc: Washington D.C. Metro Area
You'll find many that disagree with your post above. I guess that's the beauty of humans, we can have our own opinions and thoughts, it's what makes life interesting.

That said - you've asked many questions in the forums here. And with all due respect, though your questions are good, it seems as though you're wanting to argue with each little thing that our members are trying to help you with. Please understand that many of us have had gliders for a long time and collectively, have a wealth of knowledge and experience to share with new or prospective glider owners. We are doing our best to help you with info and want nothing more than to share with you what we have seen, what we know but after a while, the arguments will fall on deaf ears and many will choose to not help because it will seem fruitless to give out the answers without the advice or knowledge being accepted.

We have been around for a long time. We have seen the mill breeders/brokers in action far longer than you. Those of us that rescue gliders have seen firsthand the underage joeys, the malnourished little bodies and the staining from their poor diets. Their bonding practices are junk and what they tell you is simply a sales pitch and nothing more. Every day, a new/prospective owner comes here on the board having heard the spiels, having been sucked in as you have been. We've seen these questions and arguments over and over again and know them all too well.

Whether you choose to accept our help is up to you, but my hope is that when you ask a question, you will step back and really think about how much we've seen, how much we've experienced and how much we're attempting to help you to make an informed decision on gliders.
_________________________
Aimee & The Monkeys

www.gliderchef.com

www.thejumpinmonkey.com

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#1301256 - 10/27/12 02:02 PM Re: Dr brust? [Re: JMD]
Terry Offline
Glider Addict

Registered: 04/29/12
Posts: 4963
Loc: Maryland
Originally Posted By: JMD

But as soon as I hear these words... And I've heard them a lot on here...
" imagine how they feel" or "what if you were being treated that way"
I discredit pretty much everything because they are animals not humans and do not have the same feelings and emotions that humans do.


You are wrong, they have feelings and emotions very much like humans. They may not be able to express them the way humans do, but they feel pain physically as we do, and they feel emotional similar to humans.

I grew up with a German Shepherd, I have personally witnessed her having hurt feelings. At Christmas time exchanging gifts among the family she went to sit a corner with her back to the room sulking until she got hers. I've witnessed her limp when my mom baby sat and the baby was getting all the attention. She would switch legs she limped on, and miraculously she would walk normally once the baby was gone from our house. I have witnessed this same dog take to a pet bunny, protect it, bath it, eat, drink and nap with it and morn the loss when the bunny died. You or no one can convince me ever that dogs do not "feel" the same type of feelings and emotions we humans do, I've seen too much proof of it.
_________________________
Lives with:
1 God
1 dog, (Willow)
2 Sugies, (Ollie & Skadoosh)
R.I.P. Lulu (2/28/12-10/13/17)

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#1301259 - 10/27/12 02:09 PM Re: Dr brust? [Re: JMD]
DCMuffin Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 03/21/10
Posts: 28202
Loc: Washington D.C. Metro Area
Guys, we're getting off topic here with the dogs. This started on Dr. Brust and his practices. I'd say we've given more than enough reasons why he should not be credited but by all means, if you have something to contribute specifically about Dr. Brust and the questions within that scope, please do. But please keep this thread going in the right direction. thumb
_________________________
Aimee & The Monkeys

www.gliderchef.com

www.thejumpinmonkey.com

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#1301260 - 10/27/12 02:14 PM Re: Dr brust? [Re: JMD]
Srlb Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 10/30/03
Posts: 16744
Loc: St. Johns, Florida
Surprise Surprise, its me!!

May not make many of you happy with my response, but an open mind is the only way there is room for improvements to be made.

Yes, Sugar gliders ARE nocturnal. Yes, they are mainly active at night and their vision is better at night than during the day. I often times explain it to folks this way, picture yourself in a dark movie theater in the middle of a bright sunny day and then you walk from the dark theater to the bright light, you squint, your eyes need to refocus. The same goes for gliders.

How many of us have had our gliders out during the day? I know I have. I take natural outdoor pictures of them all the time.

The gliders in the malls, flea markets, expos etc that we see are all gliders that have been raised around this type of environment (NOT talking about the joeys that will be stressed in this environment). It is not unusual for them.

Now, what other animals are nocturnal that we have as pets and ones we have awake during the day??

Ferrets, chinchillas, hedgehogs, rats, mice, even cats.

Will a sugar glider go blind if it is in the sun? NO!
Will it die? No
Can you make it diurnal pet? NO

But to say people are bad, no matter who it is, for having gliders out in the daytime is just wrong.

As for Dr.Brust, although he is a nice guy, I have to say he learned most of what he knows from Suzette and S&S Exotics in Houston, Texas. She IS a mill breeder and a very large one. She DOES pull joeys too young (have witnessed this myself on many occasions) and is not willing to change her practices for the betterment of the animals.

The videos he has DO need to be updated and replaced with what he has on there now, as he is learning different things and asking many other vets if there are different methods.

Change does take time. But overall, I would encourage you NOT to follow the videos he has up.
_________________________
Peggy
Critter Love
Critter LoveŽ Diet Center

If you want to know what a person is like, watch how he treats others.

You'll never know what the outcome is if you don't step up and try.


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#1301262 - 10/27/12 02:16 PM Re: Dr brust? [Re: JMD]
ValkyrieMome Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 01/13/07
Posts: 10983
Loc: Denton, TX
The fact that he is paid to say what a Mill Broker endorses is enough for me!

He sold his veterinary opinion to the highest bidder, and will say anything they pay him to say. I can no longer separate his educated opinion from their paid schpeele. Since that is the case, I have to toss everything he says as potentially harmful.

It is well-known that this particular mill broker will say anything for a sale, and, in fact, makes sugar gliders out to be very very different than what they are in order to increase sales. He also CONTINUES to sell gliders sick and underage. He does NOT have the best interest of animals at heart, only his wallet.

You are welcome to believe what you want.
_________________________
Alden
"Animals can communicate quite well. And they do. And generally speaking, they are ignored." Alice Walker


Mom to Valhalla; 6 cats; 1 macaw; 2 hedgehogs;
and very many great gliders!

(plus the 2 skin kids)
valkyriegliders.com

Kyrie, nothing will ever fill the hole you left in my heart.

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#1301263 - 10/27/12 02:19 PM Re: Dr brust? [Re: JMD]
JMD Offline
Out of Pouch

Registered: 10/25/12
Posts: 54
Loc: Texas, USA
Aimee, I in no way want to argue at all... But you are very right I am new to this and taking everything with a grain of salt.. I ask argue type questions because I want fact and more details about that topic... If I say something or have a thought that differs from you guys I just want to be told why with facts!!! Not personal feelings... I have not any strong personal opinions about anything regarding gliders... Therefore I think it my responsibility to ask... But I don't want just black answers i always want to know WHY ... Just my nature.... I asked tons of questions about diets yesterday and a lot my have looked like I was arguing ... In the end I will not be feeding pellet food and that's all because people on here understood I didn't want to just told.. It's crap and my way is the only way or you are abusing... Members on here explained and gave facts on diets and against hard food pellets and after much research I m convinced thiS pellet diet is not what I will be feeding... For all those in th future I ask questions to get knowledge... If I come back saying but then what about this??? Or that??? Or if you right why this or that??? It's because I REALLY want to know and understand
I will try not to come off as arguing bc I value you guys opinion...however... Grain of salt!

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#1301264 - 10/27/12 02:25 PM Re: Dr brust? [Re: JMD]
JMD Offline
Out of Pouch

Registered: 10/25/12
Posts: 54
Loc: Texas, USA
Peggy thank u much that's exactly the kind of answer that answers my question...
As far as this guy I will take all of your opinions to heart!!!!

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#1301335 - 10/27/12 09:12 PM Re: Dr brust? [Re: JMD]
GliderNursery Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 09/14/07
Posts: 20049
Loc: North Central Ohio
It's rather obvious that most of your research has, so far, come from the largest mill breeder/broker sites out there, and that includes the videos from Dr. Brust.

If you just watch some of the videos, and seriously think about them, you'll be able to make up your own mind that his advice isn't the best available, and should probably think twice about following any of it. (Seriously, what vet would condone shoving your thumb down an animals mouth as a training technique??) His information comes directly from mill breeders/brokers - who are only out to make money from the impulse sale of gliders and their crap products.

We, on the other hand, are gaining absolutely nothing from giving you our advice. Take it all with a grain of salt, but again, you really need to consider the sources.

BTW, our advice is based on the facts of what we have learned and personally experienced.
_________________________
Shelly

Don't sacrifice quality information for convenient information.


Glider Nursery

Sugar Glider Foundation



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#1301340 - 10/27/12 09:34 PM Re: Dr brust? [Re: GliderNursery]
JMD Offline
Out of Pouch

Registered: 10/25/12
Posts: 54
Loc: Texas, USA
Originally Posted By: GliderNursery
It's rather obvious that most of your research has, so far, come from the largest mill breeder/broker sites out there, and that includes the videos from Dr. Brust.

If you just watch some of the videos, and seriously think about them, you'll be able to make up your own mind that his advice isn't the best available, and should probably think twice about following any of it. (Seriously, what vet would condone shoving your thumb down an animals mouth as a training technique??) His information comes directly from mill breeders/brokers - who are only out to make money from the impulse sale of gliders and their crap products.

We, on the other hand, are gaining absolutely nothing from giving you our advice. Take it all with a grain of salt, but again, you really need to consider the sources.

BTW, our advice is based on the facts of what we have learned and personally experienced.


i understand your point and just found his videos myself not referred by anyone... but i only watched a few of his videos one was about how to train the glider too poop on a tissue or paper ... nothing about that video seemed cruel in any way? and he did not promote any breeders?
as far as using the thumb method i have seen LOTS of people saying to do this .. not just breeder mills.... I can see if i SHOVED my finger down the throat of a glider this would not be cool but i have not heard it explained this way rather if bitten not to jump away and show fear rather push your finger in the mouth to show the glider his bite isnt getting the effect he or she is hoping for and thus the glider will stop...
im not saying i am going to use this method at all just finding out about it... what i read doesnt sound cruel... but when talked about on here its always " how would you feel if someone shoved their finger down your throat" ...

I also searched for about 2 hours on that DR. and the two breeders that i have been talking to in my area and could not find ONE negative bit of info on them away from this site....

doesnt mean i am going to buy from them.. just doing my research...

I want facts... i want links to internet site where people unrelated to this forum have bad reviews of any of these people? i want facts the this DR is in any way in bed with this breeder mills? Maybe the breeder mills sell HIS advice because its easy and sells THEIR product... not saying its so just ASKING....
I have NO agenda as i dont own a glider yet.... however I have raised horses in the past and there are people in the horse world that spent SOOOO much money and effort on hype and " special diets" and all this stuff and really it amounted to the fact that i took care of my animals and gave them happy healthy homes and spent a fraction of the money they did.. and my horses looked and were just as happy and healthy ( if not more) then theirs....
there are fanatics in EVERY kind of animal... and there are crappy abusive people too ... I just want to find a normal healthy way of taking care of my animals that will lead to long healthy happy lives... if this DR is a crock I wanna see proof... havnt seen any yet... Does that mean i am going to do anything he says to do?? NOT AT ALL! But just because people are raising gliders in mass amount to make a profit doesnt make them evil... I have hobbled many a mare to breed her and trust me it wasnt violet rape.. but ALOT of peope think that its horrible.. but common sense tells you it is best for the health of both animals.
I want to thank EACH and EVERY one of you guys for ya'lls opinions as I am taking every one of them into account with my future decisions..I know most of you have been raising gliders for YEARS and each have your own way and think that its best for the animal... and i want to hear each of your opinions...

I am just a fact guy... and If i dont see any facts i ALWAYS question the source...

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#1301394 - 10/27/12 11:56 PM Re: Dr brust? [Re: JMD]
KarenE Offline
Owner

Registered: 03/25/00
Posts: 41277
Loc: LittleRock, AR USA
Originally Posted By: JMD
Originally Posted By: GliderNursery
It's rather obvious that most of your research has, so far, come from the largest mill breeder/broker sites out there, and that includes the videos from Dr. Brust.

If you just watch some of the videos, and seriously think about them, you'll be able to make up your own mind that his advice isn't the best available, and should probably think twice about following any of it. (Seriously, what vet would condone shoving your thumb down an animals mouth as a training technique??) His information comes directly from mill breeders/brokers - who are only out to make money from the impulse sale of gliders and their crap products.

We, on the other hand, are gaining absolutely nothing from giving you our advice. Take it all with a grain of salt, but again, you really need to consider the sources.

BTW, our advice is based on the facts of what we have learned and personally experienced.


i understand your point and just found his videos myself not referred by anyone... but i only watched a few of his videos one was about how to train the glider too poop on a tissue or paper ... nothing about that video seemed cruel in any way? and he did not promote any breeders?
as far as using the thumb method i have seen LOTS of people saying to do this .. not just breeder mills.... I can see if i SHOVED my finger down the throat of a glider this would not be cool but i have not heard it explained this way rather if bitten not to jump away and show fear rather push your finger in the mouth to show the glider his bite isnt getting the effect he or she is hoping for and thus the glider will stop...
im not saying i am going to use this method at all just finding out about it... what i read doesnt sound cruel... but when talked about on here its always " how would you feel if someone shoved their finger down your throat" ...

I also searched for about 2 hours on that DR. and the two breeders that i have been talking to in my area and could not find ONE negative bit of info on them away from this site....

doesnt mean i am going to buy from them.. just doing my research...

I want facts... i want links to internet site where people unrelated to this forum have bad reviews of any of these people? i want facts the this DR is in any way in bed with this breeder mills? Maybe the breeder mills sell HIS advice because its easy and sells THEIR product... not saying its so just ASKING....
I have NO agenda as i dont own a glider yet.... however I have raised horses in the past and there are people in the horse world that spent SOOOO much money and effort on hype and " special diets" and all this stuff and really it amounted to the fact that i took care of my animals and gave them happy healthy homes and spent a fraction of the money they did.. and my horses looked and were just as happy and healthy ( if not more) then theirs....
there are fanatics in EVERY kind of animal... and there are crappy abusive people too ... I just want to find a normal healthy way of taking care of my animals that will lead to long healthy happy lives... if this DR is a crock I wanna see proof... havnt seen any yet... Does that mean i am going to do anything he says to do?? NOT AT ALL! But just because people are raising gliders in mass amount to make a profit doesnt make them evil... I have hobbled many a mare to breed her and trust me it wasnt violet rape.. but ALOT of peope think that its horrible.. but common sense tells you it is best for the health of both animals.
I want to thank EACH and EVERY one of you guys for ya'lls opinions as I am taking every one of them into account with my future decisions..I know most of you have been raising gliders for YEARS and each have your own way and think that its best for the animal... and i want to hear each of your opinions...

I am just a fact guy... and If i dont see any facts i ALWAYS question the source...


I think our members have been very patient trying to answer your questions and give you the best advice they can. Some I am sure, myself included, have even been in PM with you giving additional help.

We can only do so much, and you will find this is a rather tight knit community meaning regardless of what links to other sites we give you, more than likely you are going to find pretty much the same people (us) on those sites as well along with a few additional people.

You just need to use a search engine and find other sites yourself if you are not satisfied with the help you have been given here.
_________________________
Your Sugar Glider Resource Center
Sugar Glider Help



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#1301400 - 10/28/12 12:59 AM Re: Dr brust? [Re: KarenE]
JMD Offline
Out of Pouch

Registered: 10/25/12
Posts: 54
Loc: Texas, USA
Originally Posted By: KarenE
Originally Posted By: JMD
Originally Posted By: GliderNursery
It's rather obvious that most of your research has, so far, come from the largest mill breeder/broker sites out there, and that includes the videos from Dr. Brust.

If you just watch some of the videos, and seriously think about them, you'll be able to make up your own mind that his advice isn't the best available, and should probably think twice about following any of it. (Seriously, what vet would condone shoving your thumb down an animals mouth as a training technique??) His information comes directly from mill breeders/brokers - who are only out to make money from the impulse sale of gliders and their crap products.

We, on the other hand, are gaining absolutely nothing from giving you our advice. Take it all with a grain of salt, but again, you really need to consider the sources.

BTW, our advice is based on the facts of what we have learned and personally experienced.


i understand your point and just found his videos myself not referred by anyone... but i only watched a few of his videos one was about how to train the glider too poop on a tissue or paper ... nothing about that video seemed cruel in any way? and he did not promote any breeders?
as far as using the thumb method i have seen LOTS of people saying to do this .. not just breeder mills.... I can see if i SHOVED my finger down the throat of a glider this would not be cool but i have not heard it explained this way rather if bitten not to jump away and show fear rather push your finger in the mouth to show the glider his bite isnt getting the effect he or she is hoping for and thus the glider will stop...
im not saying i am going to use this method at all just finding out about it... what i read doesnt sound cruel... but when talked about on here its always " how would you feel if someone shoved their finger down your throat" ...

I also searched for about 2 hours on that DR. and the two breeders that i have been talking to in my area and could not find ONE negative bit of info on them away from this site....

doesnt mean i am going to buy from them.. just doing my research...

I want facts... i want links to internet site where people unrelated to this forum have bad reviews of any of these people? i want facts the this DR is in any way in bed with this breeder mills? Maybe the breeder mills sell HIS advice because its easy and sells THEIR product... not saying its so just ASKING....
I have NO agenda as i dont own a glider yet.... however I have raised horses in the past and there are people in the horse world that spent SOOOO much money and effort on hype and " special diets" and all this stuff and really it amounted to the fact that i took care of my animals and gave them happy healthy homes and spent a fraction of the money they did.. and my horses looked and were just as happy and healthy ( if not more) then theirs....
there are fanatics in EVERY kind of animal... and there are crappy abusive people too ... I just want to find a normal healthy way of taking care of my animals that will lead to long healthy happy lives... if this DR is a crock I wanna see proof... havnt seen any yet... Does that mean i am going to do anything he says to do?? NOT AT ALL! But just because people are raising gliders in mass amount to make a profit doesnt make them evil... I have hobbled many a mare to breed her and trust me it wasnt violet rape.. but ALOT of peope think that its horrible.. but common sense tells you it is best for the health of both animals.
I want to thank EACH and EVERY one of you guys for ya'lls opinions as I am taking every one of them into account with my future decisions..I know most of you have been raising gliders for YEARS and each have your own way and think that its best for the animal... and i want to hear each of your opinions...

I am just a fact guy... and If i dont see any facts i ALWAYS question the source...


I think our members have been very patient trying to answer your questions and give you the best advice they can. Some I am sure, myself included, have even been in PM with you giving additional help.

We can only do so much, and you will find this is a rather tight knit community meaning regardless of what links to other sites we give you, more than likely you are going to find pretty much the same people (us) on those sites as well along with a few additional people.

You just need to use a search engine and find other sites yourself if you are not satisfied with the help you have been given here.


Gosh i was trying to explain why i ask so many questions.. not antagonize more.... all i was saying is that if someone says someone is no good i want to know why just not bc some people say so without reasons??

but i have learned my lesson

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#1301405 - 10/28/12 01:19 AM Re: Dr brust? [Re: JMD]
Berg Offline
Glider Lover

Registered: 09/04/09
Posts: 490
Loc: Champaign Co., Illinois
JMD, when it comes to most things I too like to see supporting evidence, not just opinions. You will find lots of opinions on this and other forums about lots of glider related things, and you will find lots of facts as well. There is even a dedicated forum here - "Fact or Fiction" for trying to get some of those questions answered.

Quote:
as far as using the thumb method i have seen LOTS of people saying to do this .. not just breeder mills.... I can see if i SHOVED my finger down the throat of a glider this would not be cool but i have not heard it explained this way rather if bitten not to jump away and show fear rather push your finger in the mouth to show the glider his bite isnt getting the effect he or she is hoping for and thus the glider will stop...

I'd be curious as to where you found/heard of this other than in this video, because in my 3+ years of reading about and researching gliders I never encountered it until I saw this video. Granted, no one is directed to "shove" (as opposed to "place") a finger in the glider's mouth, but the fact remains that this technique does nothing to get at the underlying cause of the glider's biting if it in fact is a problem. It's an easy way out, and a poor one at that because it runs counter to the trust you are trying to build with your glider.

When the ASGV first appeared along with these videos, it was not hard at all to track down the connection between ASGV and Perfect Pocket Pets. At one point all of the web domain names for (PPP) Perfect Pocket Pets owned web sites were posted (and there were more than a dozen, but I can't locate that thread). Back three years ago I was pretty quickly able to establish the connection. See this thread.

Most of what you will learn here and on other glider forums is based on years of experience - that's a fact. If you want to learn about diets, bonding, and other related glider issues read the pinned topics in the forums - they generally have the techniques and facts you will need to get a basic understanding of what is involved with owning sugar gliders without getting into individual member's opinions if that's what you want to avoid. As for a list of facts that go beyond the basics, you probably won't find that. All of us are still learning about gliders, including many of the fine veterinarians we work with to care for our gliders.

It's great that you are doing the research, and I think it's good that we don't always take things at face value. Yes, some responses here and on other forums can get more emotional than "factual" and I have had issues with that myself. On the other hand, the reputation of (PPP) Perfect Pocket Pets and related web sites/entities is not held in high regard except by themselves. You won't have to do much searching to find that out.
_________________________
-Steve-

:grey: Foehn, CB, Rossby, Sprite, Flurry, and Pascal

gangel Virga 9-10-2012
gangel Cirrus 4-29-2013


The Glider Chronicles blog

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#1301406 - 10/28/12 01:43 AM Re: Dr brust? [Re: Berg]
JMD Offline
Out of Pouch

Registered: 10/25/12
Posts: 54
Loc: Texas, USA
Originally Posted By: Berg
JMD, when it comes to most things I too like to see supporting evidence, not just opinions. You will find lots of opinions on this and other forums about lots of glider related things, and you will find lots of facts as well. There is even a dedicated forum here - "Fact or Fiction" for trying to get some of those questions answered.

Quote:
as far as using the thumb method i have seen LOTS of people saying to do this .. not just breeder mills.... I can see if i SHOVED my finger down the throat of a glider this would not be cool but i have not heard it explained this way rather if bitten not to jump away and show fear rather push your finger in the mouth to show the glider his bite isnt getting the effect he or she is hoping for and thus the glider will stop...

I'd be curious as to where you found/heard of this other than in this video, because in my 3+ years of reading about and researching gliders I never encountered it until I saw this video. Granted, no one is directed to "shove" (as opposed to "place") a finger in the glider's mouth, but the fact remains that this technique does nothing to get at the underlying cause of the glider's biting if it in fact is a problem. It's an easy way out, and a poor one at that because it runs counter to the trust you are trying to build with your glider.

When the ASGV first appeared along with these videos, it was not hard at all to track down the connection between ASGV and Perfect Pocket Pets. At one point all of the web domain names for (PPP) Perfect Pocket Pets owned web sites were posted (and there were more than a dozen, but I can't locate that thread). Back three years ago I was pretty quickly able to establish the connection. See this thread.

Most of what you will learn here and on other glider forums is based on years of experience - that's a fact. If you want to learn about diets, bonding, and other related glider issues read the pinned topics in the forums - they generally have the techniques and facts you will need to get a basic understanding of what is involved with owning sugar gliders without getting into individual member's opinions if that's what you want to avoid. As for a list of facts that go beyond the basics, you probably won't find that. All of us are still learning about gliders, including many of the fine veterinarians we work with to care for our gliders.

It's great that you are doing the research, and I think it's good that we don't always take things at face value. Yes, some responses here and on other forums can get more emotional than "factual" and I have had issues with that myself. On the other hand, the reputation of PPP and related web sites/entities is not held in high regard except by themselves. You won't have to do much searching to find that out.


Steve... thank you so much you gave me a reason as to why you feel that way. and that sir i can take as good sound advice! thanks so much... I have no connection or opinion to (PPP) Perfect Pocket Pets or whatever it is or these mill breeders or brokers.. i didnt even know the term until yesterday lol i had no idea what pot i was stirring .... I in NO way meant to offend anyone...i NOW know though what mill breaders are and the dangers with them thanks to a few members that took the time to explain to me the reason for such distain ....
I was ignorant to any facts and just was surprised that the stuff i was questioning were such passionate topics. lol I KNOW NOW!...

again I NEVER said that i agreed with any of that DR's advice in the few videos i watched.. just out of my own personal lack of knowledge i didnt see anything wrong with what he was saying and wanted to understand ???
and i heard this opinion on several sites selling sugar gliders not on here. but after much research most of those sites are mill type sellers and feed pellet foods and sell underage joeys plus all the other bunk that i have learnd in the last 2 days is BULL... I will always ask people WHY when they give me their personal opinions so if that offends people I want to apologize in advance!
JD

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#1301409 - 10/28/12 05:29 AM Re: Dr brust? [Re: JMD]
JillMarie Offline
Serious Glideritis

Registered: 01/03/09
Posts: 7748
Loc: New Jersey
JMD, I admire your enthusiasm to learn. With that being said, you have already experienced how passionate glider owners can be about their little ones.

I usually stay out of threads that can get "heated" and have the potential to inspire lots of strong feelings. But I felt I needed to open up my mouth here.

First...never stop wanting to learn about gliders. The very second you think you know everything there is to know is the same second you will learn something new. NO ONE knows it all.

Second...be open minded and be willing to admit you might be wrong and can learn something new.

I wont even comment on the dog/pack thing. Having worked with wolves and wolf-dogs for 4 years MAY make me biased.

As for gliders and anthropomorphizing them, most on here know I refer to animals as people. Just because they dont speak the same language doesnt mean they dont have the same feelings. Science has proven that animals have "emotional" centers (except reptiles, amphibians, fish) but I dont want to go there either. But feel free to visit my site and read some "Arwen stories"

diets...well...hmmmmmm...research. Period.

Back to the original question, should one listen to Dr.B?
Well....hmmmmm....hmmmm....let me illustrate it this way...take your dog to the vet and he will tell you do not feed table scraps and never feed bones. We took a dog to the vet and he said table scraps and bones are needed for good health. Who is right?

Dr B like ANY vet/doctor/scientist/human has their own opinion and agenda based on experience, learned information, and motives. He like any human may change his thinking/opinion/behavior/advice based on new knowledge and experiences he goes through.

Listen to him or dont? The decision is yours.

Base your decision on the knowledge and experience you gain through visiting places like this forum. Glean experience second hand from the people on this forum who have owned gliders for years.

Sometimes it is good learning what NOT to do as much as what TO DO.

Feel free to PM with any questions or concerns you have.

Added: I want to add a PS here. I have learned a while ago that there are very few absolutes in life. There are a million "grey" areas and very few black and white areas. This is true in the glider world as well. One of my favorite sayings: there is an exception to every rule. Just felt I needed to add this for some reason dunno




Edited by JillMarie (10/28/12 05:35 AM)
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#1301445 - 10/28/12 10:36 AM Re: Dr brust? [Re: JMD]
GliderNursery Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 09/14/07
Posts: 20049
Loc: North Central Ohio
I will only make one more comment to your "FACT" finding mission. There is very little research to date on sugar gliders, and no one website is going to give you what you are looking for. One site say its good, another says its bad ~ you decide. However, THIS website has more "fact" in it than most others because it is based on real life experiences. Although we get passionate and offer our opinions, they are all based on EXPERIENCE that even most vets don't have. Can't get much more fact than that.
_________________________
Shelly

Don't sacrifice quality information for convenient information.


Glider Nursery

Sugar Glider Foundation



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#1301522 - 10/28/12 03:32 PM Re: Dr brust? [Re: GliderNursery]
JMD Offline
Out of Pouch

Registered: 10/25/12
Posts: 54
Loc: Texas, USA
Shelly , I am on a fact finding mission here on this site ... And I look forward to any wisdom I get from the experience of members here....

I was referring to facts on why that dr was a bad guy... I have been given those facts now ... Lol

I also bc of a member here found a local breeder with four breeder pairs that I will be buying my joeys from now... NOT the breeder that through research and you guys help found out IS indeed a breeder mill... I will be happy to help anytime from my personal experience now with these guys in warning possible new buyers about these guys and how bad it is!

Thanks for all the facts and info you all have helped me find a good local breeder that cares and loves her gliders and is not in it for the money!

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#1301630 - 10/28/12 07:47 PM Re: Dr brust? [Re: JMD]
Cora Offline
Serious Glideritis

Registered: 04/16/05
Posts: 6573
Loc: Kilgore, Texas
smile
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903-808-1142

http://www.freewebs.com/angelfish_37/index.htm

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