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#1320177 - 01/19/13 11:46 AM HPW & HPW Plus Comparison - questions
CandyOtte Offline
Serious Glideritis

Registered: 09/03/08
Posts: 5138
Loc: Lutz Florida
Quote from Cathy Delaney Johnson diet thread:
Quote:
Does the HPW have calcium already added?


Peggy replied:
Quote:
To answer this question, yes, the HPW does indeed already have calcium and vitamins included in the powder.

The WHPS powder which is used in the Original HPW™ does not contain a 2:1 ca:p ratio, however, when fed with a variety of fruits and vegetables and all things in moderation it balances out to be within the limits needed for sugar gliders.

The HPW Plus™ and the HPW Complete™ powders do include a 2:1 ca:p ratio which gives more comfort to those who want to feed more freely in the fruits and vegetable area and not worry about the ratio.

You can find out more about the Original HPW™, HPW Plus™, HPW Complete™ and HPW breeders Formula™ at: The HPW Diet Center or contact me via email at critterlove@critterlove.com



Quote:
The HPW Plus™ and the HPW Complete™ powders do include a 2:1 ca:p ratio which gives more comfort to those who want to feed more freely in the fruits and vegetable area and not worry about the ratio.


Your answer implies that there is less need to consider the amount of calcium in fruits and vegetables fed with HPW Plus than the previous emphasis on the ratios of fruits and vegetables fed with Original HPW.

Realistically, the goal of keeping the ratio of fruits and vegetables in mind and choosing some higher calcium fruits and vegetables to feed often and limiting the high phosphorus fruits and vegetables like corn and peas holds true for BOTH of these feeding plans.

HPW Plus powder has a 2:1 ratio but this does not mean it has MORE calcium than the Wombaroo High Protein Supplement. Based on the percentages given for HPW Plus it contains 1000 mg calcium and 500 mg phosphorus in 100 grams of the powder - a 2:1 ratio.

Wombaroo High Protein Supplement Powder contains 1300 mg calcium and 900 mg phosphorus in 100 grams of the powder so the powder alone does have a 1.44 ratio.

The recipes for both Original HPW and HPW Plus are the same.

With the additional ingredients added the ratio of Original HPW is 0.97:1. The ratio of HPW Plus with the additional ingredients is 1.04:1. Neither one has the same ratio as the powder alone and if you round them to whole numbers both are 1:1 ratio.

If HPW Plus weighs the same per cup as Wombaroo High Protein supplement, the resulting mixture of HPW Plus mixed following the recipe actually provides slightly less calcium per 1 tablespoon when compared to Original HPW.

1 TBS HPW Plus has approximately 7.01 mg calcium and 6.75 mg phosphorus

1 TBS Origninal HPW has approximately 8.66 mg calcium 8.94 mg phosphorus

The real difference between these two feeding plans is the change in PER GLIDER PORTION. Peggy's original recipe for HPW called for 1/2 TBS per glider serving.

If HPW Plus is a 'better' diet it is because the 1 TBS serving doubles the amount of all nutrients including calcium and protein compared to serving 1/2 TBS Original HPW.

Could the 'improvements' folks report in their gliders activity level and fur when fed 1 TBS HPW PLUS be the result of increased calcium, protein and sugar when compared with feeding 1/2 TBS of Original HPW?

If comparisons are to be made, the two items being compared need to have commonality. 1/2 of an apple has 1/2 the nutrients found in a whole apple.

Questions for Peggy

You kept the recipes the same for these two mixtures. What caused you to double the per glider portion recommended for HPW Plus?

Your original recipe for HPW included using double the amount of the Wombaroo High Protein Supplement powder for breeding gliders. Why is there no similar modification for mixing HPW Plus for breeding gliders? (You did add a breeder's version of HPW Complete so you must have seen something that needed to be increased for breeding gliders.)

You recommend 3 fruit/vegetable combinations to be fed with the HPW diets. How do these mixtures nutritionally complement the HPW feeding plan? The highest ratio for one of these combinations is 1.34:1 - the other two are lower.

Do you feel everyone should just stop worrying about ratios of fruits and vegetables all together?
_________________________
Candy Otte
& the Glider Kids
Sassy, Corky, Mehitabel & Missy
Wacco, Yacco, & Dot
Mindy, Kanobles, Elmo, & Chipper

http://www.gliderkids-diet.com

CandyOtte@aol.com

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#1320229 - 01/19/13 04:27 PM Re: HPW & HPW Plus Comparison - questions [Re: CandyOtte]
suggiemartha Offline
New Member

Registered: 01/19/13
Posts: 19
Loc: Lower Alabama
Wow, my brain is really full now! Thanks for bringing this up! Good points!
_________________________
You can't change your beginning, but you can start today to make a new ending.

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#1320250 - 01/19/13 06:27 PM Re: HPW & HPW Plus Comparison - questions [Re: CandyOtte]
Srlb Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 10/30/03
Posts: 16733
Loc: St. Johns, Florida
Candy, with all due respect, the Original HPW™ had been fed for 8-9 years with no added calcium or vitamins to it. I had never been one to watch the ratios of the fruits and vegetables, I just always did what was recommended to me, and that was to feed a variety of fruits and vegetables and all things in moderation. That holds true to today.

With that being said, over the 8-9 years I fed the Original HPW™ diet as written by my veterinarian and myself, we did testing often on my gliders to ensure their health and well being. Over the years,some of those tests were even posted here on GC for others to see. All those testings assured us we were on the correct path and doing well with the choices of diets we fed them.

The correct ratio to stay within for gliders is recommended 1.5:1 up to 2:1 of course the 1.5:1 being the low end of the scale and the 2:1 being the high end of the scale.

When offering a mixture/variety of fruits and vegetables over time, this does indeed balance itself out.

Now if one were feeding the Original HPW™ and only fed corn on the side, of course you would see issues over time. You would with any diet.
The same as if you only fed papaya. That is why most folks will recommend to feed a variety and all things in moderation.

Things can be written down on paper all day long and people can come up with the perfect mixture to make the perfect ratio for gliders, however, once you put those foods in the cages, you cannot make them eat everything you put in there. Therefore, your calculations on paper is not going to work. That is why you hear many people say not to stress over the ratios so much.

The Original HPW™ has always had enough calcium in it if fed with a variety of f&v. It was when folks started telling people they needed to add additional calcium to it when I started receiving emails and phone calls from people saying they were having issues with their gliders. Whether it was green, runny stools or crystals found in the urine. This was one of the main reasons we pushed forward to create a powder with a 2:1 Ca:P ratio. To ease peoples minds more and stop some of the health issues we were seeing happening more and more due to the extra supplements being added that were not needed. When people sprinkle things or add in amounts that are too much it is just as dangerous as if they were not giving enough.

Quote:
If HPW Plus is a 'better' diet


You have never heard me say that HPW Plus™ was a better diet than the Original HPW™. Honestly, that would be silly for me to say since I am the creator the Original HPW™ as well. The HPW Plus™ was developed and some changes made to make improvements that my team and myself felt needed to be made and we made it specifically with our captive bred pets in mind.

What you do hear me say is the HPW Plus™ has the Ca:P ratio people look for so they dont have to worry as much as folks to this day will still tell people how they have to be very careful on which fruits and vegetables to feed if feeding the Original.

Quote:
You kept the recipes the same for these two mixtures. What caused you to double the per glider portion recommended for HPW Plus?


This is quite simple and has been answered on here and on LGG many times before when it first came out. Guess I need to add it to my FAQ page since it is still in peoples minds...

The answer is we changed the amount as the folks that were all feeding the Original HPW™ had mostly increased the amount they were offering to one full tablespoon because they did not feel 1-1/2 teaspoons were enough per glider. To this day I have people asking me if it is ok to increase the amount offering of the Original and since over the years we did not see an increase in weight or health concerns by doing so, we tell these folks that is fine if it will make them feel better. But not to be surprised if they do not eat it all.

I also have folks telling me that their gliders do not eat a full tablespoon of the HPW Plus™ but more like 2 teaspoons. So again, just like people, some gliders just eat more than others.

Quote:
Why is there no similar modification for mixing HPW Plus for breeding gliders? (You did add a Breeder's version of HPW Complete so you must have seen something that needed to be increased for breeding gliders.


We did not like the idea of doubling any longer due to not only were you increasing the protein amounts, you were also increasing all the vitamins and mineral amounts as well. Again no health related issues from this that we were ever aware of, but a choice we made.

The HPW breeders Formula™ was created for those folks who feel it is in their gliders best interest to have additional protein, fat and calcium. As back to back breeding moms do pull a lot out of themselves to give the necessary nutrients in their milk to feed their joeys.

Again, we are listening to our customers and the voices of those who own gliders whether they are our customers or not and trying to grow from these things instead of standing still.

No matter what you do, or where you go in this world, there is always room for improvement and me and my team are constantly striving to make sure we do the very best we can, not only for my gliders but for gliders across the globe.

Quote:
You recommend 3 fruit/vegetable combinations to be fed with the HPW diets. How do these mixtures nutritionally complement the HPW feeding plan? The highest ratio for one of these combinations is 1.34:1 - the other two are lower.


These are recommended lists. Not lists that people have to follow to a T as with other diets out there. To give people an idea when I say a variety.

Again Candy, I do not sit and write the ratios out on paper to make sure they are precise. They can be right on paper all day long but if your glider doesnt eat what you put in the cage, you arent benefiting from pulling your hair out figuring it all out on paper.

Quote:
Do you feel everyone should just stop worrying about ratios of fruits and vegetables all together?


I have actually said this for years. People shouldnt worry and stress. We do not get these adorable little creatures and bring them into our lives to worry and stress over what they eat when, lets face it, probably less than 1% of people worry about the ratios for themselves.

You will always hear me say, feed a good, healthy staple along with a variety of fruits and vegetables and you will have a healthy glider as far as diet is concerned.

Also, not sure if you have seen it or not, but we do have a FAQ page for folks to view. It can be seen at:

http://www.hpwdietcenter.com/faqs.html
_________________________
Peggy
Critter Love
Critter Love® Diet Center

If you want to know what a person is like, watch how he treats others.

You'll never know what the outcome is if you don't step up and try.


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#1320266 - 01/19/13 07:03 PM Re: HPW & HPW Plus Comparison - questions [Re: CandyOtte]
Feather Offline
Administrator

Registered: 01/19/08
Posts: 11940
Loc: Wisconsin
:thumb2: :agreed:Well said Peggy!
_________________________
Kimberley
Feathers-Sweetie, Sklyar Blue, Mister Peanut, Big Mack & Ibo
Fur-Widget, Guinan, Mr. Spock, T'Mir, Micheal, Stevie, Cho & :bb: T'Pol, Elizabeth & Curzon :wfb: TY, TJ & T'Pring :rtmo: O'Ryan :leu:
Forever in my heart, Gizmo, Tucker and the rest of my babies over the :rbridge:


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#1320275 - 01/19/13 07:19 PM Re: HPW & HPW Plus Comparison - questions [Re: CandyOtte]
CandyOtte Offline
Serious Glideritis

Registered: 09/03/08
Posts: 5138
Loc: Lutz Florida
thank you Peggy

Quote:
This was one of the main reasons we pushed forward to create a powder with a 2:1 Ca:P ratio.


Quote:
The HPW Plus™ and the HPW Complete™ powders do include a 2:1 ca:p ratio which gives more comfort to those who want to feed more freely in the fruits and vegetable area and not worry about the ratio.


You continue to emphasize that HPW Plus POWDER has a 2:1 ratio. However, after it is mixed as directed with water, honey, eggs and bee pollen the full staple no longer has a 2:1 ratio - it has a 1.04:1 ratio.

Why do you feel this allows any more freedom to choose fruits and vegetables without considering the ratios than one would have if feeding original HPW?

If the HPW Plus Powder were formulated so that after the other ingredients are added the completed mixture has a 2:1 ratio, (like HPW Complete) then there would be no problem with freely choosing fruits and vegetables.

Since HPW Plus does not have a significantly different ratio after mixing than Original HPW then the same attention to offering fruits and vegetables with higher ratios more often than high phosphorus foods remains necessary.



Edited by CandyOtte (01/19/13 07:20 PM)
_________________________
Candy Otte
& the Glider Kids
Sassy, Corky, Mehitabel & Missy
Wacco, Yacco, & Dot
Mindy, Kanobles, Elmo, & Chipper

http://www.gliderkids-diet.com

CandyOtte@aol.com

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#1320278 - 01/19/13 07:28 PM Re: HPW & HPW Plus Comparison - questions [Re: CandyOtte]
Srlb Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 10/30/03
Posts: 16733
Loc: St. Johns, Florida
Quote:
If the HPW Plus Powder were formulated so that after the other ingredients are added the completed mixture has a 2:1 ratio, (like HPW Complete) then there would be no problem with freely choosing fruits and vegetables.


Candy, there are NO problems with freely feeding fruits and vegetables with any of the HPW diet plans.

We always recommend it, just as we always have since the beginning of the Original HPW™
_________________________
Peggy
Critter Love
Critter Love® Diet Center

If you want to know what a person is like, watch how he treats others.

You'll never know what the outcome is if you don't step up and try.


Top
#1320279 - 01/19/13 07:34 PM Re: HPW & HPW Plus Comparison - questions [Re: CandyOtte]
CandyOtte Offline
Serious Glideritis

Registered: 09/03/08
Posts: 5138
Loc: Lutz Florida
Thank you.

Good to know that ratios are no longer an important consideration when feeding any form of HPW.
_________________________
Candy Otte
& the Glider Kids
Sassy, Corky, Mehitabel & Missy
Wacco, Yacco, & Dot
Mindy, Kanobles, Elmo, & Chipper

http://www.gliderkids-diet.com

CandyOtte@aol.com

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#1320281 - 01/19/13 07:41 PM Re: HPW & HPW Plus Comparison - questions [Re: CandyOtte]
Srlb Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 10/30/03
Posts: 16733
Loc: St. Johns, Florida
Candy, please do not twist things to make them sound like they are not....

Fruits and Vegetables should ALWAYS be fed in Moderation and a VARIETY.

If they are fed this way with the HPW Original™, HPW Plus™, HPW Complete™ or HPW breeders Formula™ you will have your gliders on a good, healthy diet. I have many customers that could and would attest to this.

You can start reading some of those on the testimonial page at: http://www.critterlove.com/testimonials.html
_________________________
Peggy
Critter Love
Critter Love® Diet Center

If you want to know what a person is like, watch how he treats others.

You'll never know what the outcome is if you don't step up and try.


Top
#1320282 - 01/19/13 07:45 PM Re: HPW & HPW Plus Comparison - questions [Re: CandyOtte]
Feather Offline
Administrator

Registered: 01/19/08
Posts: 11940
Loc: Wisconsin
Candy,

Why do you only pick apart HPW Original, HPW Plus and HPW Complete?

I never see you say anything about: Val's Green Variety, LGRS, The Pet Glider diet, The Suncoast diet, BML or any of the other approved diets.
_________________________
Kimberley
Feathers-Sweetie, Sklyar Blue, Mister Peanut, Big Mack & Ibo
Fur-Widget, Guinan, Mr. Spock, T'Mir, Micheal, Stevie, Cho & :bb: T'Pol, Elizabeth & Curzon :wfb: TY, TJ & T'Pring :rtmo: O'Ryan :leu:
Forever in my heart, Gizmo, Tucker and the rest of my babies over the :rbridge:


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#1320312 - 01/19/13 08:58 PM Re: HPW & HPW Plus Comparison - questions [Re: CandyOtte]
CandyOtte Offline
Serious Glideritis

Registered: 09/03/08
Posts: 5138
Loc: Lutz Florida
My question related to Peggy's statement that HPW Plus allows folks to choose fruits and vegetables more freely than Original HPW because the POWDER has a 2:1 ratio.

In reality, HPW Plus once mixed with the eggs, honey, bee pollen and water no longer has that magical 2:1 ratio. It actually has a ratio of 1.04:1 and from a ratio stand point is not much different from Original HPW which has a ratio of 0.96:1.

Both diets should require the same quality of fruits and vegetables with high phosphorus foods fed in moderation and high calcium fruits and vegetables offered frequently.

The Pet Glider diet, SunCoast diet and BML all call for calcium and vitamin supplements to cover gliders needs. LGRS calls for Papaya and Calcium Fortified Orange Juice and Yogurt as calcium sources. Val's Green Variety contains a number of ingredients including some vitamin supplements.
_________________________
Candy Otte
& the Glider Kids
Sassy, Corky, Mehitabel & Missy
Wacco, Yacco, & Dot
Mindy, Kanobles, Elmo, & Chipper

http://www.gliderkids-diet.com

CandyOtte@aol.com

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#1320320 - 01/19/13 09:17 PM Re: HPW & HPW Plus Comparison - questions [Re: CandyOtte]
Feather Offline
Administrator

Registered: 01/19/08
Posts: 11940
Loc: Wisconsin
Candy,

Peggy made HPW Complete and HPW Plus with the help of a dietary team consisting of veterinarians, nutritionist and other well educated people.

Don't you think that they covered all their bases when making these diets as far as the fruits and vegetables fed. Peggy recommends the vegetables and fruits included in the three veggie/fruit mixes to give people an idea of what to give their gliders.

People can also offer other fruits and veggies that are not in those mixes to give their gliders a wider variety of fruits and vegetables in their diet.

Why don't you go back to school and get an degree in nutrition, because all I see is someone who continues to BASH HPW Original, HPW Plus and HPW Complete.

I never see you pick apart any of the other diets. Or the vitamins that are needed with Pricilla Price's diet. It is always Peggy's diets.
_________________________
Kimberley
Feathers-Sweetie, Sklyar Blue, Mister Peanut, Big Mack & Ibo
Fur-Widget, Guinan, Mr. Spock, T'Mir, Micheal, Stevie, Cho & :bb: T'Pol, Elizabeth & Curzon :wfb: TY, TJ & T'Pring :rtmo: O'Ryan :leu:
Forever in my heart, Gizmo, Tucker and the rest of my babies over the :rbridge:


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#1320324 - 01/19/13 09:36 PM Re: HPW & HPW Plus Comparison - questions [Re: CandyOtte]
CandyOtte Offline
Serious Glideritis

Registered: 09/03/08
Posts: 5138
Loc: Lutz Florida
Feather. My questions have been answered.

As for going back to school, I have a BS Degree in Nursing from Duke. Nutrition was a large part of the curriculum. I have also taken a number of nutrition related continuing education courses over the years. I have years of experience in nutritional counseling with parents of children with feeding issues. I have no need for additional courses.
_________________________
Candy Otte
& the Glider Kids
Sassy, Corky, Mehitabel & Missy
Wacco, Yacco, & Dot
Mindy, Kanobles, Elmo, & Chipper

http://www.gliderkids-diet.com

CandyOtte@aol.com

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#1320329 - 01/19/13 09:48 PM Re: HPW & HPW Plus Comparison - questions [Re: CandyOtte]
Feather Offline
Administrator

Registered: 01/19/08
Posts: 11940
Loc: Wisconsin
Candy animal nutrition is a lot different than human nutrition.

I have worked in agriculture for most of my life and all the nutritionist that I have spoke to and consulted with have a DEGREE in ANIMAL NUTRITION. Most of them had Doctorate degrees in veterinary medicine also, not a nursing degree.
_________________________
Kimberley
Feathers-Sweetie, Sklyar Blue, Mister Peanut, Big Mack & Ibo
Fur-Widget, Guinan, Mr. Spock, T'Mir, Micheal, Stevie, Cho & :bb: T'Pol, Elizabeth & Curzon :wfb: TY, TJ & T'Pring :rtmo: O'Ryan :leu:
Forever in my heart, Gizmo, Tucker and the rest of my babies over the :rbridge:


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#1320336 - 01/19/13 10:02 PM Re: HPW & HPW Plus Comparison - questions [Re: Feather]
KarenE Offline
Owner

Registered: 03/25/00
Posts: 41153
Loc: LittleRock, AR USA
We have a strict No Diet Bashing Policy here.

There can be a fine line between discussing, questioning and bashing. At times, one seems to melt into the other very quickly.

Every time a new diet comes on the scene, questions are raised as they should be. No one should ever blindly accept a diet as being good for your gliders regardless of who originated it.

Since I have been in the glider community I have seen every new diet have to go through the process of questions and answers.

This is no different, but we must insist board rules be followed to keep this discussion open.

If there is a problem with any diet discussion (or any discussion on the board for that matter), feel free to use the Notify Moderator button at the bottom of each reply.

Quote:
Rule 4. GliderCENTRAL is a family oriented board moving towards a "PG" rather than a "G" rating. Be polite, courteous and respectful to other board members at all times. This means illegal substances, illegal activities, flaming, sexually explicit subjects, spamming, harassing, policing, diet bashing, and abusive or negative personal posts are not allowed. Posts and sometimes entire topics that contain such content will be removed, and the poster(s) may be warned, suspended or banned at the discretion of the board administrators. Abuse, flaming or inappropriate comments directed toward GliderCENTRAL, its Moderators and Administrators, or failure to comply with the direction of a Moderator or Administrator, the poster(s) may be warned, suspended or banned at the discretion of the board administrators. Please keep any personal matters off the board. Take it to email or PM. Please keep in mind that board rules do apply when using the PM feature.
_________________________
Your Sugar Glider Resource Center
Sugar Glider Help



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#1320353 - 01/19/13 10:41 PM Re: HPW & HPW Plus Comparison - questions [Re: CandyOtte]
yiyo Offline
Serious Glideritis

Registered: 06/08/11
Posts: 7560
Loc: Long Island, NY
Is there a cheerleader icon somewhere? If so, I'd like to put one up for Candy jump jump
Great questions that needed clarification!


Edited by yiyo (01/20/13 08:15 AM)
_________________________
Alyssa

"Moving on is a simple thing, what it leaves behind is hard."

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#1320382 - 01/20/13 10:19 AM Re: HPW & HPW Plus Comparison - questions [Re: CandyOtte]
cathy1229 Offline
Glider Guardian

Registered: 08/26/12
Posts: 928
Loc: Concord, NH
I think it is important to raise these question regardless of which diet it is.

Seems like all the other diets are recipes that you mix the ingredients together for the most part. What I have seen is that the HPW diets are in and of themselves the basic ingredient with liquids added. So it is very important to understand what is in the dry part of the diet to assess its nutritional value.

JMHO
_________________________
Cathy

Wife to a very special man &

Proud Mommy of:
1 aussie/bordercollie/husky/plotthound Wimpy
1 Sun Conure Cisco
3 Amazing fuzzbutts Akiah (my little princess) & her brother Acoose,Princess 'Tudie, and Tochee

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#1320455 - 01/20/13 03:10 PM Re: HPW & HPW Plus Comparison - questions [Re: CandyOtte]
Feather Offline
Administrator

Registered: 01/19/08
Posts: 11940
Loc: Wisconsin
Yes, it is important to raise questions about a diet. BUT, Candy only questions the family of HPW diets.

What about the diets that Candy formulated? I don't see anyone picking them apart.

Has she had her gliders blood values done since they have been on her diet?

Peggy did extensive testing on her own gliders before she released HPW Plus and HPW Complete. She continues to do blood work on her gliders to study the long term use of her diet.

HPW Original has been fed to gliders for over 9 years, no one started picking apart that diet until Peggy released her HPW Plus and HPW Complete diets.

To me it looks as though Candy has a vendetta against Peggy.
_________________________
Kimberley
Feathers-Sweetie, Sklyar Blue, Mister Peanut, Big Mack & Ibo
Fur-Widget, Guinan, Mr. Spock, T'Mir, Micheal, Stevie, Cho & :bb: T'Pol, Elizabeth & Curzon :wfb: TY, TJ & T'Pring :rtmo: O'Ryan :leu:
Forever in my heart, Gizmo, Tucker and the rest of my babies over the :rbridge:


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#1320459 - 01/20/13 03:20 PM Re: HPW & HPW Plus Comparison - questions [Re: CandyOtte]
cathy1229 Offline
Glider Guardian

Registered: 08/26/12
Posts: 928
Loc: Concord, NH
Kimberley,

With all due respect, I believe there is an older thread on GC, where Candy's diets were infact picked apart and she herself was basically tarred and feathered!

I am not taking sides and am not wanting to create any ill will. I just stated that Candy's question/observation was legitamate. That's how we learn by asking questions and the bottom line is we are all here to learn and do the best we can for our fuzzbutts.
_________________________
Cathy

Wife to a very special man &

Proud Mommy of:
1 aussie/bordercollie/husky/plotthound Wimpy
1 Sun Conure Cisco
3 Amazing fuzzbutts Akiah (my little princess) & her brother Acoose,Princess 'Tudie, and Tochee

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#1320468 - 01/20/13 04:01 PM Re: HPW & HPW Plus Comparison - questions [Re: CandyOtte]
Feather Offline
Administrator

Registered: 01/19/08
Posts: 11940
Loc: Wisconsin
Cathy they were picked apart and the matter was closed and no one brings it up, yet Candy continues to pick apart the HPW diets.

When I first started with gliders I fed BML, when my gliders outright quit eating the staple portion of the diet I had to switch diets. You don't see me picking apart BML. BML is a great diet, so are the HPW diets they way they were originally written, Val's green variety and the pet glider diet.

Candy does up these calculations for Calcium and Phosphorus balances on paper and on paper it may look good or bad, but just because a diet is 2:1 on paper (including fruits and vegetables) doesn't mean your gliders are going to eat everything.

Candy has recommended that people add Calcium to the Original HPW diet (with High Protein Wombaroo powder) and they some gliders turned up with crystals in their urine and bladder stones from too much Calcium.

You can make up a diet on paper that looks great, everything with the fruit, vegetables and staple diet balance out to 2:1 Calcium:Phosphorus, but the minute you feed a yoggie, give your begging glider a piece of spaghetti, chicken or a pinky mouse you have just thrown off that 2:1 ratio.

A person would drive themselves nuts trying to make sure that their animals are getting a 2:1 ratio diet.

I for one would rather feed a good, proven diet with a variety of fruits and vegetables that my gliders actually eat spend my time enjoying my gliders and playing with them.
_________________________
Kimberley
Feathers-Sweetie, Sklyar Blue, Mister Peanut, Big Mack & Ibo
Fur-Widget, Guinan, Mr. Spock, T'Mir, Micheal, Stevie, Cho & :bb: T'Pol, Elizabeth & Curzon :wfb: TY, TJ & T'Pring :rtmo: O'Ryan :leu:
Forever in my heart, Gizmo, Tucker and the rest of my babies over the :rbridge:


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#1320489 - 01/20/13 04:47 PM Re: HPW & HPW Plus Comparison - questions [Re: CandyOtte]
josefine Offline
Glider Addict

Registered: 08/17/08
Posts: 2701
Loc: Perry, Iowa
I'm the idiot in this group, but, how can HPW Plus be a 2:1 ratio before adding in the eggs,honey,& bee pollen, & then it changes it to be under 2:1?
These are what the gliders need to be eating,to keep them healthy.
What makes it change?
I was led to believe that both diets were the same!
It sure is a good thing,then,that I am feeding both,mixing the 2 together,b/c I don't want to deal will hard ice HPW, or mushy HPW.
_________________________
Larry & Josefine Vodenik
2014 4 St
Perry,Iowa50220
515/321-6081cell#
j.vodenik@hotmail.com

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#1320494 - 01/20/13 04:55 PM Re: HPW & HPW Plus Comparison - questions [Re: CandyOtte]
cathy1229 Offline
Glider Guardian

Registered: 08/26/12
Posts: 928
Loc: Concord, NH
I am not a nutritionist, but if you have a powder that is 2:1 then add eggs, which are not 2:1, honey which is not 2:1, and bee pollen which is not 2:1 then the total ratio will not be 2:1. However, that being said, a wide variety of fruits & veggies given should even it all out in the end.

Just think in the wild, sugar gliders eat what is available and sometimes that means that one day they have more calcium, the next less.

Just my 2cents worth. I am just glad that others have come up with the variety of diets that have been used successfully because we all know these little fuzzies can be picky!
_________________________
Cathy

Wife to a very special man &

Proud Mommy of:
1 aussie/bordercollie/husky/plotthound Wimpy
1 Sun Conure Cisco
3 Amazing fuzzbutts Akiah (my little princess) & her brother Acoose,Princess 'Tudie, and Tochee

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#1320592 - 01/20/13 09:08 PM Re: HPW & HPW Plus Comparison - questions [Re: CandyOtte]
GliderNursery Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 09/14/07
Posts: 20049
Loc: North Central Ohio
As KarenE said, all diets go through these discussions. I don't feed any of the HPW diets, but I personally think that Peggy answered the questions early on in the thread. I hope that means she has satisfied Candy's concerns so this stops. It really is getting quite old.
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Shelly

Don't sacrifice quality information for convenient information.


Glider Nursery

Sugar Glider Foundation



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#1320642 - 01/21/13 07:32 AM Re: HPW & HPW Plus Comparison - questions [Re: Feather]
yiyo Offline
Serious Glideritis

Registered: 06/08/11
Posts: 7560
Loc: Long Island, NY
Originally Posted By: Feather
Peggy did extensive testing on her own gliders before she released HPW Plus and HPW Complete. She continues to do blood work on her gliders to study the long term use of her diet.


But, as mentioned so many times before, noone has ever seen the results of these "tests". Yet, they're consistently mentioned as a selling point for the diet.

Also, way back when I was choosing a diet, I had asked what the advantages of the Plus and Complete would be over the Original and I was told one of the major advantages was that they both had the 2:1 ratio. I presumed (as I'm sure most do) that meant 2:1 as prepared, but that's definitely not the case. I personally feel that this is a valid point that needed clarification so people aren't mislead.

Noone is saying that the HPW diets are "bad", just asking educated and relevant questions about them.
_________________________
Alyssa

"Moving on is a simple thing, what it leaves behind is hard."

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#1320684 - 01/21/13 09:02 AM Re: HPW & HPW Plus Comparison - questions [Re: yiyo]
Srlb Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 10/30/03
Posts: 16733
Loc: St. Johns, Florida
It has always been said that the POWDERS maintain a 2:1 Ca:P ratio.

Again, if the HPW Plus™ is fed with a variety of fruits and vegetables and all things in moderation the diet will balance out to the proper ratio for the glider and your glider will be on a healthy diet.

As for the Complete™ it is only added with water, so it does not have the other components to lower the Ca:P ratio.

I wonder just how many of you can tell me what your ratios are of the foods you intake every day or that your children intake everyday.

We stress too much over this topic honestly and I personally feel that takes away from the happiness of owning a glider.

We stress just on one portion of a diet instead of looking at the entire diet as a whole.

Again, my team and myself are listening to folks out there and trying to give them something that is healthy for gliders to maintain a long and healthy life.We are taking the proper course of action to make certain it is safe and nutritious. If you like the choice we offer, feed it. If you dont like it or dont feel comfortable with it, find a diet you do feel is best for you and your gliders.

But whatever your decision is, relax and enjoy your gliders. We bring them into our homes and lives to bring us joy and peace.
_________________________
Peggy
Critter Love
Critter Love® Diet Center

If you want to know what a person is like, watch how he treats others.

You'll never know what the outcome is if you don't step up and try.


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#1320707 - 01/21/13 10:02 AM Re: HPW & HPW Plus Comparison - questions [Re: CandyOtte]
finnessa Offline
Glider Guardian

Registered: 07/29/09
Posts: 847
Loc: New Jersey
:agreed: with Peggy 100%

I have never sat down and did ratios on any of my plans for my diets and I have always fed a form of HPW diets and never another.

I tried one time as a newbie to sit and calculate everything and my brain was mush by the end and I gave up without even a single batch to be made, it wasn't worth the added stress when I knew in my heart that what I choose to feed them is safe and within reason. I'd go insane now if I had to do a whole calculation for every batch I make being I go through a batch in 2 days.

I love the versatility in the HPW diets. I love being able to pick and choose and not be confined to 3 or 4 fruits and veggies and nothing more. The possibilities with these diets are virtually endless when you put away the calculator and go on with life having the enjoyment and freedom of experimenting and discovering just what they love and what they hate.

I love my freedom of choice in these diets and I greatly appreciate the work Peggy put in to making it so. Without these diets I'd be left to something much less desirable.
_________________________
Mommy to
MANY gliders
2 dogs
2 cats
3 turtles
and 4 skin kids.

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#1320711 - 01/21/13 10:08 AM Re: HPW & HPW Plus Comparison - questions [Re: CandyOtte]
josefine Offline
Glider Addict

Registered: 08/17/08
Posts: 2701
Loc: Perry, Iowa
Mods,I feel this should be closed out,now.(PLEASE) smile
ENOUGH IS ENOUGH!!! smile
When I sent a PM to a couple of mods,I let them know that a war is going to erupt,& one did. smile
I HATE it when people fight. I know it is extremely important to get a correct take on the HPW's, & so much has already been hashed out on it. smile
Feather,you need to tone it down some,if you wen't trying to be mean,you sure fooled me,I felt the cut of your knife. smile
If this wasn't true,then I would suggest that you use smilies,so we would be aware of your mental take on this subject. smile
I'm just stating things as I am reading them. smile
_________________________
Larry & Josefine Vodenik
2014 4 St
Perry,Iowa50220
515/321-6081cell#
j.vodenik@hotmail.com

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#1320732 - 01/21/13 10:47 AM Re: HPW & HPW Plus Comparison - questions [Re: josefine]
KarenE Offline
Owner

Registered: 03/25/00
Posts: 41153
Loc: LittleRock, AR USA
Josephine, we do understand your feelings, however, diet discussions are and have always been an extremely hot topic both here and on other forums.

They are also an extremely important topic.

When we feel any topic has crossed the lines of our rules, we will take the appropriate action/s.
_________________________
Your Sugar Glider Resource Center
Sugar Glider Help



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#1320786 - 01/21/13 02:42 PM Re: HPW & HPW Plus Comparison - questions [Re: CandyOtte]
josefine Offline
Glider Addict

Registered: 08/17/08
Posts: 2701
Loc: Perry, Iowa
I really just don't like all the drama that goes w/it.
All the hurtful words,& feelings. The lashing out,too. frown
It is like going back to grade school,only these are grown adults.
If something isn't adding up,it isn't right,then it needs to come out,& debated about.
This always seems to go beyond a debate,(compare it to all of the politicians commercials). frown
_________________________
Larry & Josefine Vodenik
2014 4 St
Perry,Iowa50220
515/321-6081cell#
j.vodenik@hotmail.com

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#1320829 - 01/21/13 06:49 PM Re: HPW & HPW Plus Comparison - questions [Re: CandyOtte]
Feather Offline
Administrator

Registered: 01/19/08
Posts: 11940
Loc: Wisconsin
I am very blunt. That being said as far as the research that is being done on Peggy's diet....

You tell me how many researchers release their results until they are done.

A lot of studies take years to complete.

I for one am patiently waiting for the results of Peggy's diet study.
_________________________
Kimberley
Feathers-Sweetie, Sklyar Blue, Mister Peanut, Big Mack & Ibo
Fur-Widget, Guinan, Mr. Spock, T'Mir, Micheal, Stevie, Cho & :bb: T'Pol, Elizabeth & Curzon :wfb: TY, TJ & T'Pring :rtmo: O'Ryan :leu:
Forever in my heart, Gizmo, Tucker and the rest of my babies over the :rbridge:


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#1320852 - 01/21/13 07:48 PM Re: HPW & HPW Plus Comparison - questions [Re: CandyOtte]
Srlb Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 10/30/03
Posts: 16733
Loc: St. Johns, Florida
Quote:
But, as mentioned so many times before, noone has ever seen the results of these "tests". Yet, they're consistently mentioned as a selling point for the diet.


You are correct Yiyo, it is mentioned as I am proud that proper testing IS being done by licensed professionals.

Unfortunately, testing isnt and cannot be done overnight. It takes years to do, that is if you are going to do it properly.

I can tell you this though,when I get the testing results I will share them with all of you. I just cant promise when that will be.
_________________________
Peggy
Critter Love
Critter Love® Diet Center

If you want to know what a person is like, watch how he treats others.

You'll never know what the outcome is if you don't step up and try.


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