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#1321020 - 01/22/13 10:20 AM Inbreeding and line breeding in sugar gliders
GliderFun Offline
Glider Lover

Registered: 04/07/08
Posts: 320
Loc: NY
I was looking for a discussion about this but couldn't find one.

I was hoping to start a discussion about this to see why inbreeding is bad and why it's not done in gliders.

Please add input. If speculating or hypothesizing, please STATE that. If you have scientific evidence, please cite.


Here is my understanding

I breed mice and rats. Inbreeding is done extensively to strengthen the lines and ensure you are selling PURE healthy lines.

The basis of this is, breed one pair of mice a couple times and get healthy litters,

Breed the babies back to dad and get some babies with a genetic deformity. Test with mom and get none. With that, you will KNOW that dad carries a hidden recessive trait for that deformity.

Breed the same babies back to mom and get zero genetic deformities.

Then, take those babies and breed them back to mom again. Still clear of any genetic deformities? Great, now breed them to mom one more time or go directly to breeding to each other for several generations.

Pair the male and female mice from that litter 1.1 and produce litters.


To TEST to see if any of those offspring carry that same genetic defect, breed back to the KNOWN carrier (AKA Dad).

If several litters show clean, cull those test litters and continue working with the clean line.

You've successfully eliminated a dangerous genetic deformity that out-crossing COULD have hidden for GENERATIONS AND GENERATIONS.


I've seen this done, done this type of breeding myself, and know that it works. Additionally, I believe (though I can't find the article anymore) that this is how lab rats and mice came around. They were selectively bred for large litters and elimination of genetic deformities to create pure lines to work with in a lab.



Now, I understand with mice and rats you are able to do this a lot more and a lot better due to the high production rate, where-as, with gliders, producing 4-6 babies a year or less, makes it hard.

Couple that with the reproductive age of 1 year for females and it makes it A LOT HARDER to do the same with gliders.


But, since gliders can produce for quite a few years (and have a much longer lifespan than that of a mouse or rat), you MAY be able to accomplish the same thing if you work toward it and plan things accordingly.

I have seen the kinship chart on gliders (though I don't know what scientific research was done to create that chart, so if anyone has cited experiments I'd love to see the reports on those experiments smile )



My concern is, how do we know there isn't some horrible genetic disease lurking in the recessives of our gliders that hasn't been expressed yet, but after years of out crossing, now every line has been exposed to this genetic disease and after years of work on a line, it pops up?

There's no guarantee that the recessive would show up first, second, or third time breeding to another WITH that recessive, but that doesn't mean it doesn't carry that gene. (look at breeding a leu to a het, you could breed them 4 times and still not get any leus, though statistically you would get 50% leus. It doesn't always happen that way!)

Now it's back to the drawing board and you need to scrap years of out-crossing in order to try something different to produce healthy animals.


Here's an experiment you can easily do at home to describe breeding hets to leus and the 50% leu baby thing.

Take a quarter. Flip it 10 times. How many heads and how many tails? was it exactly 50%? Try it 20 times, 50 times, 100 times?

I went 25 times almost all heads.

This helps people understand the recessive thing more.



ANYWAY, I know inbreeding within this community is a "NO NO" and I hope I'm not BEHEADED and thrown to the sharks for posing this question and having a slight difference of opinion, but I'd like to discuss this since I think it's important to the future of our gliders and the lines.

We have only been breeding gliders for around 20-30 years, so our knowledge of these animals is VERY little and limited. I think we have a lot to learn and posing questions like this will better help our understanding and maybe get us thinking some more.

Look at all the information we are discrediting every day on Glider Central Fact or Fiction. Look how many times the appropriate and best diet has changed.


smile

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#1321037 - 01/22/13 11:08 AM Re: Inbreeding and line breeding in sugar gliders [Re: GliderFun]
GliderNursery Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 09/14/07
Posts: 20049
Loc: North Central Ohio
This is a very interesting topic. In breeding many other species, line breeding is perfectly acceptable and is regularly practiced. And technically, it is done with sugar gliders all of the time. I just don't think people realize it.

You mentioned the kinship chart. Let's take a look at it HERE. The portion in RED is inbreeding. The sections in GOLD, YELLOW and BLUE are all linebreeding. We see pairs within these categories all of the time. So, I think linebreeding is misunderstood in the glider community. As for the source of this chart, please know that I didn't create it, I have reproduced it on my site with permission. I'm not sure where Jennifer obtained it, or if she created it. dunno

Inbreeding is a bit more tricky, and IMO, should only be done by the most experienced breeders and done so in a closed-type program. (Meaning you aren't putting those inbred animals out into general population to be bred by a lesser experienced breeders.) If inexperienced breeders, or maybe I should say those with less genetic knowledge, should not even consider.
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#1321052 - 01/22/13 11:31 AM Re: Inbreeding and line breeding in sugar gliders [Re: GliderFun]
GliderFun Offline
Glider Lover

Registered: 04/07/08
Posts: 320
Loc: NY
I agree with you 100% about the experienced breeders.

It takes a lot of patience and time to do something like this, not to mention tons of cage space and EXPENSE.

We have a lot of dedicated breeders here, but I don't know if anyone has ever done this and I don't know if it's because it's a "no no" or if it costs too much to do and takes too much time.

Not to mention, if anyone caught wind of something like that, they might be considered a non reputable breeder from that point forward, so I think there's a certain scare factor involved in some things.

Though again, I notice a HUGE difference in the way things are today vs the way things were several years ago as far as being afraid to come out with your own opinions.

I am quite pleased with that smile

When I breed my mice to eliminate issues, those mice that exhibit the issues I'm breeding out get humanely culled.

The others generally stay with me for observation so I know how they do over the course of their lives (as far as tumors/etc).

Another thing we'd have to do is cull gliders, and a lot of people would probably be upset with this as they see their gliders as their babies, rightfully so.

The issue with this is, culling is the most humane thing to do in this instance, and it's easy to do while complying with the AVMA. Furthermore, the deceased gliders could prove helpful for other studies so nothing would go to waste per say.


I would love to find out where that kinship chart came from! smile

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#1321055 - 01/22/13 11:42 AM Re: Inbreeding and line breeding in sugar gliders [Re: GliderFun]
Guerita135 Offline
Glider Addict

Registered: 08/05/07
Posts: 4645
Loc: Ohio
I agree that it could potentially be extremely beneficial to gliders in the long run. However, it would require a ton of space and time to accomplish the goal, unfortunately.

The main problems would be: 1) What to do with deformed offspring(no one, myself included, is going to want to cull a joey...even a "special" one. I've lost tons of sleep hand-raising joeys in the past.), 2) Finances(you wouldn't want to sell any joeys for at least a few generations, so how would you recoup any of the costs?), and 3) Space(you would need to hold onto all of the offspring for many years to ensure that they don't develop issues later on).

With gliders it just seems easier to avoid inbreeding/linebreeding to decrease your odds of having recessive genetic issues popping up.

Btw, the kinship chart is a HUMAN chart. It has simply bee too copy/pasted for reference when breeding gliders.
_________________________
~Nicole~

Proudly enslaved by lots of silly suggies, 3 crazy kitties, a huffy hedgie, and a pretty puppy! grin

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#1321056 - 01/22/13 11:44 AM Re: Inbreeding and line breeding in sugar gliders [Re: GliderFun]
Guerita135 Offline
Glider Addict

Registered: 08/05/07
Posts: 4645
Loc: Ohio
Sorry for any typos/auto-corrections...I'm typing this all on my phone, lol.
_________________________
~Nicole~

Proudly enslaved by lots of silly suggies, 3 crazy kitties, a huffy hedgie, and a pretty puppy! grin

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#1321059 - 01/22/13 11:55 AM Re: Inbreeding and line breeding in sugar gliders [Re: GliderFun]
Guerita135 Offline
Glider Addict

Registered: 08/05/07
Posts: 4645
Loc: Ohio
Another thing to consider, is that gliders are marsupials, so it would be extremely easy for them to kill of any joeys that might have problems as soon as they're born. Since most breeders never actually witness the birth, they would be none the wiser. It would be easy to assume a line is clean because no issues pop up, when in reality all of the joeys with issues are simply being killed by their mom before they drop in pouch.



Edited by Guerita135 (01/22/13 11:57 AM)
_________________________
~Nicole~

Proudly enslaved by lots of silly suggies, 3 crazy kitties, a huffy hedgie, and a pretty puppy! grin

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#1321063 - 01/22/13 12:12 PM Re: Inbreeding and line breeding in sugar gliders [Re: GliderFun]
CandyOtte Offline
Serious Glideritis

Registered: 09/03/08
Posts: 5138
Loc: Lutz Florida
rats/mice have larger litters so it more likely that at least one baby will exhibit a visible defect in each litter if the parents both carry a harmful recessive gene.

Since gliders usually have only 1 or 2 joeys - a pair of gliders could breed many times before any joey exhibits a defect. Just as a pair of 100% leu het gliders could potentially have many joeys born before they actually produce a leu. (each individual joey has a 25% chance of receiving two recessive leu genes) A breeding glider pair could have many joeys and never produce one exhibiting the defect that survives to come OOP.

The use of inbreeding to identify harmful recessive genes would not be practical with gliders.
_________________________
Candy Otte
& the Glider Kids
Sassy, Corky, Mehitabel & Missy
Wacco, Yacco, & Dot
Mindy, Kanobles, Elmo, & Chipper

http://www.gliderkids-diet.com

CandyOtte@aol.com

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#1321064 - 01/22/13 12:14 PM Re: Inbreeding and line breeding in sugar gliders [Re: Guerita135]
GliderNursery Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 09/14/07
Posts: 20049
Loc: North Central Ohio
Originally Posted By: Guerita135
Another thing to consider, is that gliders are marsupials, so it would be extremely easy for them to kill of any joeys that might have problems as soon as they're born. Since most breeders never actually witness the birth, they would be none the wiser. It would be easy to assume a line is clean because no issues pop up, when in reality all of the joeys with issues are simply being killed by their mom before they drop in pouch.



:agreed:
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Don't sacrifice quality information for convenient information.


Glider Nursery

Sugar Glider Foundation



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#1321083 - 01/22/13 01:10 PM Re: Inbreeding and line breeding in sugar gliders [Re: GliderFun]
GliderFun Offline
Glider Lover

Registered: 04/07/08
Posts: 320
Loc: NY
Why is it sad to cull a joey but not a cute little mouse?

Nicole, I know you breed mice as well as gliders. I don't recall if you just sell excess/unwanted animals to/in a pet store, cull, or both, but I for one would not have any issue culling a joey, as sad as it may be.

Sacrifices have to be made for the good of any species. How many rodents are culled everyday either for snake food, don't conform to standard, too many bucks, etc?

I for one find baby mice ADORABLE and so loveable and I have hand raised a litter of rats in the past who grew to thrive.

I have also hand raised several rejected joeys in the past 6 or so years.

I think the thought of "it's so cute, how can I cull it" needs to be irrelevant.

If the breeder who takes on a project such as that can't cull, then they would have no business taking on the project to begin with.

I do not believe that "no one" would be able to cull a joey.
The person taking on the project would have to NOT be in it for any money (not even money in which to re-coop costs).

I know that I personally can give all my gliders away free and still afford to keep or breed them no problem. I have a vet reserve in a savings account just in case of emergencies, and we make enough money from our jobs to support all of our animals without needing to breed.

I personally think that if you NEED to sell a joey in order to care for your gliders, you shouldn't be breeding gliders in the first place (maybe not even keeping them). The day I NEED to sell an animal to afford to keep them is the day I stop breeding and reduce my workload.


As far as the kinship chart being originally made for humans, how do we even know that gliders are similar enough to us humans that they follow the same chart?

If you were to pull that out and use that for mice or rats, that would not be relevant.

Inbreeding for humans is obviously no good for many reasons including ethical and moral reasons. I can see that chart being of use for that.





Nicole, I do find the point about mothers pulling joeys to be interesting.

But baby mice are sometimes culled by their mothers and eaten when they have issues, right at birth. You wouldn't know if 1/2 the litter was culled by mom or not if you didn't witness her giving birth, which a lot of mouse moms don't appreciate either.

And Candy, I also agree that it could be many breedings before a defective observation may be seen, which is why something like this would have to be done by someone with patience, money, space, and who can keep excellent records.

I don't know that they would be able to hide a defect through 6 years of breeding (approx 24 babies), but that's possible.

Has anyone gone through 24 babies out of a leu X het pair and not gotten a leu (or even a leu het X leu het)?

It's not for the faint of heart, but the information from such an "experiment" would be invaluable to the glider community as a whole, especially since gliders have only really been bred 20-30 years so far.

There may be a lot of information to gain from such research that we just donít know about yet!



This is all so interesting!!!!


I'm glad this discussion is ongoing.



Edited by GliderFun (01/22/13 01:18 PM)

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#1321087 - 01/22/13 01:27 PM Re: Inbreeding and line breeding in sugar gliders [Re: GliderFun]
Guerita135 Offline
Glider Addict

Registered: 08/05/07
Posts: 4645
Loc: Ohio
As you know, I breed mice too...it's hard for me to cull baby mice, but I do it knowing that the other babies will be better off because of it and it will help keep mom from being over-worked. Culling a baby joey would be purely selfish, imo. If it has a deformity, but is still able to live a relatively normal life, then there's no justification in culling them except to save yourself the time and trouble of dealing with them.

My extra mice get adopted out or culled(and sold as frozen feeders later on), depending on the situation.

Please keep in mind that I have a glider that was born with health issues(a "Wiggle baby"). If she were a mouse I'd put her down without a second thought, but she's not...she's a precious little glider whom I love and spoil, despite her issues.

I love my mice and my gliders, but mice live such short lives anyways, so I don't get very attached to them. Gliders live 10-20 years and have big personalities. I can't help but to be attached to them from day 1. I would never be able to cull a joey. I would fight to the last second to save it's precious little life.
_________________________
~Nicole~

Proudly enslaved by lots of silly suggies, 3 crazy kitties, a huffy hedgie, and a pretty puppy! grin

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#1321088 - 01/22/13 01:33 PM Re: Inbreeding and line breeding in sugar gliders [Re: GliderFun]
Guerita135 Offline
Glider Addict

Registered: 08/05/07
Posts: 4645
Loc: Ohio
The kinship chart works for any species. A first cousin is still a first cousin, no matter whether you're a mouse, a human, or a fish, lol
_________________________
~Nicole~

Proudly enslaved by lots of silly suggies, 3 crazy kitties, a huffy hedgie, and a pretty puppy! grin

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#1321089 - 01/22/13 01:34 PM Re: Inbreeding and line breeding in sugar gliders [Re: GliderFun]
GliderFun Offline
Glider Lover

Registered: 04/07/08
Posts: 320
Loc: NY
I feel the opposite than you do. I think that keeping a deformed glider who would not be able to function properly is selfish as opposed to humanely euthanizing such animal.


Even if the glider could live a "fairly" normal life, I think that time and resources would be better spent on a glider in need of a home (or researching and determining if there are hidden deformities in the lines) than keeping a deformed glider alive because you thought it was cute.

As far as mice, you cull them later in life as well. You don't see mice and gliders on the same level as far as cuteness and "worth". That's fine but some people feel the same about mice as you do about gliders. (that comes across snippy but it's DEFINITELY not supposed to)


Everyone I'm sure has a different opinion on it but that's where I stand.

You would not be a good candidate for breeding research such as that because of your stance on culling gliders and that is perfectly fine smile Everyone will have a different opinion.




Edited by GliderFun (01/22/13 02:06 PM)

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#1321140 - 01/22/13 03:30 PM Re: Inbreeding and line breeding in sugar gliders [Re: GliderFun]
Guerita135 Offline
Glider Addict

Registered: 08/05/07
Posts: 4645
Loc: Ohio
I'm pretty sure no one here will be up for culling joeys, lol. Half of the forum is made up of posts about people with joeys(or adults) that have health issues and they're doing everything they can to save that glider.

I'm one of the few people here who fully understands, appreciates, and supports what you're suggesting. I think that inbreeding can be a great tool in improving animals. However, because of the nature of gliders and the fact that they're slow-breeding marsupials, I just don't see it ever working out.

I've had this same discussion with multiple breeders saying how I wish we COULD inbreed gliders to help eliminate potential genetic problems since it's an issue that is close to my heart(because of my Wiggle babies), but in the end the conclusion is always the same, no matter which way we look at it. :/
_________________________
~Nicole~

Proudly enslaved by lots of silly suggies, 3 crazy kitties, a huffy hedgie, and a pretty puppy! grin

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#1321149 - 01/22/13 04:20 PM Re: Inbreeding and line breeding in sugar gliders [Re: GliderFun]
GliderFun Offline
Glider Lover

Registered: 04/07/08
Posts: 320
Loc: NY
Has anyone tried to dedicate time and money towards this?

Potentially just giving it a try?

Gosh I guess I'm the only heartless one here who could cull a joey if need be(lol).




Edited by GliderFun (01/22/13 04:20 PM)

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#1321158 - 01/22/13 04:38 PM Re: Inbreeding and line breeding in sugar gliders [Re: GliderFun]
nancy1202 Offline
Glider Addict

Registered: 05/21/08
Posts: 2529
Loc: Kentucky
Originally Posted By: GliderFun
I know that I personally can give all my gliders away free and still afford to keep or breed them no problem. I have a vet reserve in a savings account just in case of emergencies, and we make enough money from our jobs to support all of our animals without needing to breed.

I personally think that if you NEED to sell a joey in order to care for your gliders, you shouldn't be breeding gliders in the first place (maybe not even keeping them). The day I NEED to sell an animal to afford to keep them is the day I stop breeding and reduce my workload.
This in itself could turn into a hot topic. You are definitely in the minority. I don't believe there are many who make a fortune selling gliders, but breeders strive to at least break even, with the cost of buying breeders, cages, food, toys, pouches, vet care, etc. There are breeders who need to sell a joey to pay the rent or fix their car. Does that make them a bad breeder? In most cases, I don't think so.

Here is my tally to-date:
Expenses - conservative estimate $10,000
Income - $200 for the one joey I sold 2 years ago
Net loss - $9800... :owell:
_________________________
~Nancy~
http://www.derbycitygliders.com

:grey: Athena/Izzie, Lukas/Leilah, Mizuki/Elektra, Oliver/Ava, Gypsy/Ramon/Paloma
Rest of the menagerie: dogs, cats, corn snake, bearded dragon

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#1321168 - 01/22/13 04:59 PM Re: Inbreeding and line breeding in sugar gliders [Re: GliderFun]
GliderNursery Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 09/14/07
Posts: 20049
Loc: North Central Ohio
I don't think there has ever been anyone that has tried what you are suggesting. And to be honest, I don't know many people that would try it. Furthermore, I think that we would be further ahead to work on genetic testing and utilizing necropsies.

And I fully agree with Nancy, it doesn't make anyone a bad breeder if you NEED to sell joeys. Whether you NEED to sell joeys to care for your gliders, to continue a breeding program, pay rent, buy food...is absolutely no one's business. It's completely irrelevant what I either need to, or choose to spend "joey income" on as long as my gliders are well cared for and have proper veterinary care.
_________________________
Shelly

Don't sacrifice quality information for convenient information.


Glider Nursery

Sugar Glider Foundation



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#1321183 - 01/22/13 05:57 PM Re: Inbreeding and line breeding in sugar gliders [Re: GliderFun]
GliderFun Offline
Glider Lover

Registered: 04/07/08
Posts: 320
Loc: NY
I didn't mean to set off a hot topic here.

That's just my opinion. Same goes for my dogs.
They are my pets and for me, personally, I need to be able to comfortably afford my pets before making the decision to breed.

I would be afraid to rely on breeding as a source of income to pay my mortgage, electric, etc because it's such a variable thing. Maybe they won't produce for a year, maybe not for a year and 1/2. I need to be able to afford to pay my bills regardless of if they breed or not.
But then if you make a business out of breeding, you do need to make money for other reasons as well.


Again, just the way I handle my pets. smile Everyone is different I'm sure.


I'm also not 100% sure anyone who has tried this would come out and admit it even if they have.

But I do see the issues with trying such things.



Edited by GliderFun (01/22/13 05:58 PM)

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#1321185 - 01/22/13 05:59 PM Re: Inbreeding and line breeding in sugar gliders [Re: GliderNursery]
IslandGliders Offline
Glider Addict

Registered: 08/29/10
Posts: 4182
Loc: Maine
Originally Posted By: nancy1202
Originally Posted By: GliderFun
I know that I personally can give all my gliders away free and still afford to keep or breed them no problem. I have a vet reserve in a savings account just in case of emergencies, and we make enough money from our jobs to support all of our animals without needing to breed.

I personally think that if you NEED to sell a joey in order to care for your gliders, you shouldn't be breeding gliders in the first place (maybe not even keeping them). The day I NEED to sell an animal to afford to keep them is the day I stop breeding and reduce my workload.
This in itself could turn into a hot topic. You are definitely in the minority. I don't believe there are many who make a fortune selling gliders, but breeders strive to at least break even, with the cost of buying breeders, cages, food, toys, pouches, vet care, etc. There are breeders who need to sell a joey to pay the rent or fix their car. Does that make them a bad breeder? In most cases, I don't think so.


Originally Posted By: GliderNursery
I don't think there has ever been anyone that has tried what you are suggesting. And to be honest, I don't know many people that would try it. Furthermore, I think that we would be further ahead to work on genetic testing and utilizing necropsies.

And I fully agree with Nancy, it doesn't make anyone a bad breeder if you NEED to sell joeys. Whether you NEED to sell joeys to care for your gliders, to continue a breeding program, pay rent, buy food...is absolutely no one's business. It's completely irrelevant what I either need to, or choose to spend "joey income" on as long as my gliders are well cared for and have proper veterinary care.


:agreed:

The thought of culling joeys makes my heart ache. You can't really say that it is justifiable because "a mouse is cute, a glider is cute, therefore the two are equal and both can be culled." This is just not the way we as people think. We love our dogs but eat chickens; we make a pet of a cat but a meal of a pig. It's apples to oranges. Yes, dogs and cats and chickens and pigs are all animals (and all are arguably adorable) but each species of animal has a clearly defined role in our society and culture and not many are comfortable with those animals outside of said roles.

(All of this is for the sake of argument. Personally I cannot and would not ever be able to cull ANY animal, and I am vegetarian. So yes, I am one of the types that is not "fit for the job," as you say.)

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#1321194 - 01/22/13 06:43 PM Re: Inbreeding and line breeding in sugar gliders [Re: GliderFun]
GliderFun Offline
Glider Lover

Registered: 04/07/08
Posts: 320
Loc: NY
no but you're fit for guiding me in how to eat healthier!! LMAO. I'm sure you're thin and healthy. I don't know if I could ever be a vegetarian but I'd sure like to eat healthier. I'm assuming brownies at night isn't the way to go ;P

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#1321198 - 01/22/13 07:04 PM Re: Inbreeding and line breeding in sugar gliders [Re: GliderFun]
GliderNursery Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 09/14/07
Posts: 20049
Loc: North Central Ohio
What do you mean? Brownies at night are perfect! :rofl2:
_________________________
Shelly

Don't sacrifice quality information for convenient information.


Glider Nursery

Sugar Glider Foundation



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#1321201 - 01/22/13 07:09 PM Re: Inbreeding and line breeding in sugar gliders [Re: GliderFun]
GliderFun Offline
Glider Lover

Registered: 04/07/08
Posts: 320
Loc: NY
Oh okay!! Well in that case the last few nights I've been a GOOD GIRL... BF just brought me home a new box since we'll probably be snowed in tomorrow smile YAY Go Brownies <3

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#1321216 - 01/22/13 08:09 PM Re: Inbreeding and line breeding in sugar gliders [Re: GliderFun]
SLHamil Offline
Glider Explorer

Registered: 01/17/13
Posts: 171
Loc: Maryland
Originally Posted By: GliderFun


I know that I personally can give all my gliders away free...


Where do i signup? wink
_________________________
~Shannon
mommy to 2yo daughter, 5 yo son, 2.5 yo bunny, and a 1yo mutt :-)
Proud owner of Grace, Cort, and Ari smile

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#1321236 - 01/22/13 09:42 PM Re: Inbreeding and line breeding in sugar gliders [Re: SLHamil]
GliderNursery Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 09/14/07
Posts: 20049
Loc: North Central Ohio
Originally Posted By: SLHamil
Originally Posted By: GliderFun


I know that I personally can give all my gliders away free...


Where do i signup? wink


Sorry, but you walked right in to that one! :roflmao2:
_________________________
Shelly

Don't sacrifice quality information for convenient information.


Glider Nursery

Sugar Glider Foundation



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#1321354 - 01/23/13 11:52 AM Re: Inbreeding and line breeding in sugar gliders [Re: GliderNursery]
nccoastie622 Offline
Out of Pouch

Registered: 01/03/13
Posts: 50
Loc: Maryland
Okay I am new to the glider community, only having gotten mine two months ago. So please take my opinion as just that my opinion. I have no intention of ever breeding, I don't have the skill or knowledge and even if I did its not something I personally would be interested in. I am an animal lover. I love dogs, I'm highly allergic to cats and cannot love them the way I would wish to, I have no problems with snakes, rats, hamsters, or any other creature. Except spiders, I am not overly fond of them. The serve a purpose and I am fine with said purpose but they can stay away from me. There are only four creatures, ( all insect) I have found I could kill with no problem. Flies, Mosquitos, meal worms and earth worms.

My whole problem with the above reasoning is you are talking about " culling" animals who are unworthy of living. For whatever reason. By your reasoning it's all right to cull an animal who has a genetic anomaly. So would you be alright with culling humanity, or dogs, or other animals. What gave you or anyone the right to make that decision on who lives or who dies for the pleasure of breeding the perfect line. Sure gliders, mice, rats, any animal can have genetic defects. Humans have them as well. I'm not driving at making this conversation into an ethical debate on life or death.
I will say its a proven fact that many species who have tried interbreeding have found some serious genetic problems because the genetics of the two are so close together. A brother and sister will have the same genetic markers to a degree, if you breed groups of brothers and sister for long enough you will find that genetic diversity is erased and the same genetic code will develop. What happens if that particular genetic sequence has a week ness to say a particular flu virus, if that strain is not exposed to that virus then you never know. Until it happens. Then you lose the entire genetic code and it's kaputs. Marsupials and mammals have similar markup so I'm pretty sure it holds true for most of them.
Genetic diversity is important to evolution. You take that away an a person or animal will never get any better.
That's why it's so dangerous when an animal becomes endangered. Once they hit a certain point there is no saving a species because there isn't enough animals to sustain the population and keep it going.

So aside from my aversion to culling any animal, they all have a right to live,
And aside from my aversion to destroying a species genetic diversity,
We made these fine animals into pets, they didn't ask to be kept as pets but mankind chose to make them pets. We have altered there intended purpose sure,
But it's our responsibility to take care of them and care for them. We don't cull dogs for genetic deformities. We care for them and love them for there diverse personalities.

Like I said this is my opinion and my opinion only, I would not " cull a Joey just because of a genetic deformity. We don't do it to people yet, someone tried long ago to do this and he was attacked and stopped. Why choose to do it to a animal. They can't stand up and tell you not to but that doesn't mean we have the right to.
I eat meat, I love beef, we breed them for that purpose. We breed gliders for our pleasure.

Just my opinion
_________________________
Andrew
Husband to Rebecca.
Father of two gals, Ash and Fallon
Also
Jackson the coonhound, Mya the Chihuahua fox terrier mix,
and
:grey: Beau :grey: Dez :grey: Alley



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#1321369 - 01/23/13 12:22 PM Re: Inbreeding and line breeding in sugar gliders [Re: GliderFun]
StowawayGliders Offline
Glider Guardian

Registered: 02/01/12
Posts: 738
Loc: Columbia, TN
I haven't heard of a mouse bonding to a person, the way a glider does. I have always had mice around but the difference is they were always pests, and thats why we always had at least one cat. I love animals, always have, but when I tried to "rescue" two mice from my fathers sticky trap (as a child) I put them in a cage and one ate the other one... I didn't like mice anymore. Then as a young adult trying to make out on my own and a family of mice destroy all of my food in the pantry when all thats left is the cans, they will always be pests. Sugar gliders however are never pests, they are part of the family, like my kids, my dog and cat. I couldn't see culling a part of my family because something was "wrong" withh them.

Testing on mice is widely accepted, whereas testing on dogs, cats, other pet like animals is not. Maybe I'm wrong and I just see it that way.

I would rather do dna tests to see potential recessive defects then breed it out, killing and inbreeding. The cost would probably even out and I would think a mouth swab/blood drawn would be better for the animal then years of breeding/inbreeding, emotional stress of changing partners, who knows what else. I am just voicing my opinion. Not downing anyone elses.



Now that I have ranted, GliderFun, I would love to sign up for the joey giveaway too!
_________________________
Kalie

Stowaway Gliders

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#1321383 - 01/23/13 12:45 PM Re: Inbreeding and line breeding in sugar gliders [Re: StowawayGliders]
GliderNursery Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 09/14/07
Posts: 20049
Loc: North Central Ohio
That was a very good post Andrew. However, I wanted to comment on one thing you said.
Originally Posted By: nccoastie622
We don't cull dogs for genetic deformities.

Unfortunately, large breeders do cull. It wasn't too long ago that if a chocolate lab was born, they would drown the puppies because that wasn't a recognized color, it was a defect. Once people started to desire that color, and the AKC acknowledged it as a color, the became very popular and were very expensive at the start.

Not saying I agree with it in any way, just that it really does happen.

Originally Posted By: kb314
Sugar gliders however are never pests

To us, this is absolutely true. However, as the mice that you are (IMO rightfully) calling pests, in nature in Australia, sugar gliders are pests to them.
_________________________
Shelly

Don't sacrifice quality information for convenient information.


Glider Nursery

Sugar Glider Foundation



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#1321394 - 01/23/13 01:01 PM Re: Inbreeding and line breeding in sugar gliders [Re: GliderNursery]
nccoastie622 Offline
Out of Pouch

Registered: 01/03/13
Posts: 50
Loc: Maryland
Okay I stand corrected about the dogs, it's not normal and if they get caught doing that then they get into trouble for it. It's cruel and horrible that they would do that. Kinda sickens me a little bit. But like I said I love animals, I would prefer if they where not culled or killed or destroyed for any reason. I will admit there are times when it is not avoidable. Last year we had to put down one of our puppies, she was 3 and one of the most adorable and loving dogs. Beagle Labradors mix. She developed renal failure and it was either pay 2000 dollars for a procedure that was not garunteed to work, or put her to sleep. She was in pain, dying with no chance. So we put her to sleep and my family cried. In that instance the yes, it's an act of kindness. Culling a Joey for a genetic defect when that glider is fully capable of living a full and good life is cruel and mankind trying to play god.
Again it's just my opinion. Everyone is entitled to there own and I respect that.
_________________________
Andrew
Husband to Rebecca.
Father of two gals, Ash and Fallon
Also
Jackson the coonhound, Mya the Chihuahua fox terrier mix,
and
:grey: Beau :grey: Dez :grey: Alley



Top
#1321406 - 01/23/13 01:20 PM Re: Inbreeding and line breeding in sugar gliders [Re: GliderFun]
GliderFun Offline
Glider Lover

Registered: 04/07/08
Posts: 320
Loc: NY
I definitely donít want to get in a ethics debate because Iím sure my views on several subjects differ GREATLY from the general public.

ďinterbreeding have found some serious genetic problems because the genetics of the two are so close togetherĒ
Correct, when you breed closely it brings out hidden recessives that the animal carries already in their genetics.

Iím unsure if the suggestion you are making about susceptibility to Flu would be a valid concern. Iím not experienced enough to know this but Iím curious about it.
What Iím discussing is a proven method with rodents and Iíve never heard of your Flu analogy. Iíll have to check with some people and see what they say. Iím very curious now.


As far as killing dogs, we kill dogs every day. We put dogs to sleep because they are born with wobblers, swimmers syndrome, and other genetic diseases. Itís in the best interest of the animal to not allow them to live. This is common practice.

I doubt youíd be able to get a dog breeder to admit they cull from birth but some do when they have puppies born with genetic deformities (some use methods that are not to my liking).

We also murder dogs and cats by the millions because nobody wants them and they are over bred. They werenít bred to be killed. If anything is sad, that is very sad. frown
Horses are now legal to eat in the US. They werenít bred for that either. The law just passed about a year ago?

And as far as them not being able to tell us ďnoĒ for the killing, we make decisions for our animals every day. Some people believe forcing animals to breed and have litter after litter in captivity is also cruel and inhumane. They canít tell us ďno, stop, Iím physically tired and itís killing me and sucking the nutrients out of meĒ. They canít tell us if they WANT to be parents (with the exception of moms who cull their own offspring).
Just another thing to think about smile


As far as cows, I LOVE BEEF smile Yumm.
Especially Kobe, which are massaged and fed beer! Sooo Delish!

I do see and understand your opinion.

KB, mice bond with people all the time. Mice and rats can be taught to do tricks (roll over, fetch, etc), run obstacle courses, and bond very closely with their people. They will stay on your person just like a glider. Iím assuming you just havenít experienced this.
Rats and mice are EXTREMELY intelligent. Iím thinking more intelligent than gliders (speculating).

Iíve had issues with wild rodents as well, btw. Valentines day. My boyfriend told me heíd come back from his business trip to see me and I placed rose peddles everywhere, spent 2 hours drawing a valentines day card, rushed from class to be home to see his face.

I got a call from him that he was not going to be there. I sat on the kitchen floor in tears. Thatís when I heard it. Munch Munch Munch.
There were hundreds of them under my counters IN my bag of rice, that we were STILL EATING from the top of the bag, while they were eating from the bottom.


Just what I needed. We got a cat and never saw them again.
I donít hold a grudge against a whole species because of some wild rodents. ;-)


Iím pretty sure gliders will eat each other when one dies as well. I think Iíve even heard about this. I think its a survival thing but not certain. Heck, even fish will!


As far as sugar gliders being pests, Iím not certain. Here we have flying squirrels as pests that get into our attic and chew wires.

Do you know if sugar gliders are pests in their native areas?

Large exotic birds, cockatoos, etc are PESTS to farmers in their native lands and they kill them! Here they are pets.




BTW ARE WE ALLOWED TO POST YOUTUBE VIDEOS IN HERE??? Let me know and Iíll post some examples of rodents doing tricks. smile


Everyone is entitled to feel differently about different subjects.

Animal testing is a harsh reality, but itís through animal testing that we come up with cures for horrible diseases that devastate the world. I donít see anything wrong with using dogs and cats for testing if that would speed up the release of an important drug to cure HIV, or Cancer, or anything else people suffer and die from on a day to day basis.

Speaking of animal testing and humans, donít they still test on chimps. Those animals are a 98% match to humans!

Also, coming up with genetic tests for gliders, does anyone know how much it would cost to just COME UP with the tests? They don't exist currently (speculating), so they would have to be created. Will those test be able to tell us what recessives the animal is carrying?

I believe so as in Newfoundland dogs there is a coat test for recessive coat types BUT, you would have to know about the recessives you are testing for (I believe). If we don't know what recessive diseases gliders could be carrying, how can we test for it?

I'm curious about all of this!

Damn I should have been a geneticist!


Just food for thought :-)


As far as free gliders. I wonít be handing any of those out tounge Just because I donít HAVE TO make money on my gliders doesnít mean I donít WANT TO ;-)


Hearing all these difference of opinions is great!! smile smile How exciting!!!

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#1321408 - 01/23/13 01:22 PM Re: Inbreeding and line breeding in sugar gliders [Re: GliderFun]
GliderFun Offline
Glider Lover

Registered: 04/07/08
Posts: 320
Loc: NY
Holy post. I'm sure I rambled a bunch *head desk*

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#1321415 - 01/23/13 02:01 PM Re: Inbreeding and line breeding in sugar gliders [Re: GliderFun]
nccoastie622 Offline
Out of Pouch

Registered: 01/03/13
Posts: 50
Loc: Maryland
Well as far as the flu analogy goes look at it this way. Look at the statistics for military boot camps. Something like 70% or greater of recruits get sick from cold or flu like symptoms. The reason, a person from California has developed an immunity to allot of the viruses and bugs in there area. You go to a new area, say north Carolina for vacation, or say boot camp, parris island. Your body has no immunity to the viruses in that area. So you get sick, now add in another 100 people all from differ ant areas carrying there areas viruses.....you guessed it, you get sick, in cape may new jersey they called it the cape may crud. For three of the eight weeks people are there for training they are sick...think war of the worlds.....

So look at gliders, by inbreeding and cutting the genetic code your not only reducing bad genes, deformities and all, but you also run a real risk of breeding out immunities and or positive genetic traits. You keep breeding brown eyed people and soon you will only have brown eyed people. Genetic mutation can also occur that with out a way to look at it could go undetected. So say you breed ten generations. You now theoretically have perfect genetic gliders, only there was an underlying genetic anomaly that pops up and kills the gliders, you then have gone through how much time, money and effort.
Again this is all based on my understanding of genetics and could very well be inaccurate as I am not a genetic expert in any way. The part about boot camp is true and is what the doctors told the recruits was the cause of there sickness.

So ethics aside, or the right or wrong aside, if you could do it I think that the cost, the risk of underlying problems and the breeding out of certain traits through the inbreeding would make it impractical for such a thing.

As for the ethical part, you are correct, gliders cannot tell us to stop breeding them. It's instinct in them. You put two of them in a cage, maybe set up some mood lighting and some soft music and watch..not literally the magic happen. You however do not make them mate, they have to do that on there own. Killing there own, again it's something every animal does including we humans. A mother killing a Joey falls more into natural selection and the instincts of a mother. Us ( humans ) killing an animal is a little different. That is not natural selection, that is us choosing who lives and who dies.

Animals that are bred for food are a little different. We are in fact omnivores, we eat meet and fruits and veggies and in parts of the world they eat some weird things. Well weird to Americans. I'm sure there are things we Americans eat where other cultures are repulsed by.
Again most of this is my logic, there is no garuntee it's accurate or right for everyone.
Personally.....I've fallen in love with dogs, and sugar gliders and I hate to think about anything hurting a dog and now sugar gliders. Especially a small little one that cannot even bite you to tell ya to stop
_________________________
Andrew
Husband to Rebecca.
Father of two gals, Ash and Fallon
Also
Jackson the coonhound, Mya the Chihuahua fox terrier mix,
and
:grey: Beau :grey: Dez :grey: Alley



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