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#1321815 - 01/25/13 01:06 AM Platinum Inheritance Question
animalloversfb Offline
Glider Explorer

Registered: 09/26/11
Posts: 212
Loc: VA
If a glider is a Platinum 100% Leu het(meaning they are platinum because they have 1 copy of the plat gene and 1 copy of the leu gene), do they always pass on the plat gene? Can they pass on the leu gene?

I have seen some breeders say that offspring from a Platinum 100% leu het are 100% plat het, but how do we know which one they are passing on? Just curious because it seems divided - some breeders list all the offspring as 100% plat het while others take it into account that they could pass on the leu.
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#1321816 - 01/25/13 01:13 AM Re: Platinum Inheritance Question [Re: animalloversfb]
pop123444 Offline
Glider Lover

Registered: 10/11/12
Posts: 616
Loc: Oregon, United States
good qeustion, i would like too know too since im a small breeder
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#1321851 - 01/25/13 08:28 AM Re: Platinum Inheritance Question [Re: animalloversfb]
GliderNursery Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 09/14/07
Posts: 20049
Loc: North Central Ohio
We know for a fact that a het can carry both the platinum and the leu gene and can pass both on to their offspring. We also know that a Platinum, 100% LH can pass both genes as well. The only thing that is still somewhat debatable is whether a Leucistic can also carry the plat gene. It HAS happened in the past, which is why I consider my leu joeys from my Plat x Leu pairing to be Leu, 100% Plat het.

There is still some debate with some breeders on whether the leus can carry the plat gene.

Here is an article that I wrote up based on both my personal experience and what has already been produced.
Leucistic and Platinum Pairings
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#1321855 - 01/25/13 08:40 AM Re: Platinum Inheritance Question [Re: animalloversfb]
Dani4Hedgies Offline
Glider Slave

Registered: 04/24/09
Posts: 1408
Loc: Merriam KS
Shelly,
I love how simply you explain the gene and het info it makes it very easy to understand and to pass on to new owners/breeders thank you
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#1321882 - 01/25/13 09:58 AM Re: Platinum Inheritance Question [Re: animalloversfb]
GliderFun Offline
Glider Lover

Registered: 04/07/08
Posts: 320
Loc: NY
I'm curious if you bred your two Plats that you got out of your mosaic to test and see if they were TRUE plats or if they were plat mosaics (which really have nothing to do with the plat gene as far as I remember but I could be wrong).

Dealing with a mosaic it tricky in my opinion because they can produce gliders that look very similar to other colors (WT, Plat, Leu) which may confuse people into thinking they are carrying genes that they are not. (again, to my understanding)

I'm not saying this is the case but have the babies been bred to prove it out? I'm assuming if you breed a plat to a gray with no plat or leu in its lineage you will get gray, 100% plat hets.

To test and see if the babies are really plats or if they are plat mosaics, breed the babies to a standard gray with no recessives. If they produce similar offspring, or produce mosaics, the babies would be plat mosaics and not plats.


I think I got that right! *shrug*

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#1321894 - 01/25/13 10:42 AM Re: Platinum Inheritance Question [Re: GliderNursery]
IslandGliders Offline
Glider Addict

Registered: 08/29/10
Posts: 4182
Loc: Maine
Originally Posted By: GliderNursery
We know for a fact that a het can carry both the platinum and the leu gene and can pass both on to their offspring. We also know that a Platinum, 100% LH can pass both genes as well. The only thing that is still somewhat debatable is whether a Leucistic can also carry the plat gene. It HAS happened in the past, which is why I consider my leu joeys from my Plat x Leu pairing to be Leu, 100% Plat het.

There is still some debate with some breeders on whether the leus can carry the plat gene.

Here is an article that I wrote up based on both my personal experience and what has already been produced.
Leucistic and Platinum Pairings


I had never seen that article of yours before. Thank you! clap

I have a pairing myself set up here to further prove that the non-colored offspring of a platinum 100% leu het can carry both genes. I am anxiously awaiting their first joeys!

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#1321948 - 01/25/13 01:10 PM Re: Platinum Inheritance Question [Re: GliderNursery]
animalloversfb Offline
Glider Explorer

Registered: 09/26/11
Posts: 212
Loc: VA
Originally Posted By: GliderNursery
We know for a fact that a het can carry both the platinum and the leu gene and can pass both on to their offspring. We also know that a Platinum, 100% LH can pass both genes as well. The only thing that is still somewhat debatable is whether a Leucistic can also carry the plat gene. It HAS happened in the past, which is why I consider my leu joeys from my Plat x Leu pairing to be Leu, 100% Plat het.

There is still some debate with some breeders on whether the leus can carry the plat gene.

Here is an article that I wrote up based on both my personal experience and what has already been produced.
Leucistic and Platinum Pairings


So Shelly, you believe that Leu and Plat are not carried on the same locus? That they are passed on independently? If that is the case, there would have to be a gene controlling there interacting as standard 100% plat het and 100% leu hets typically would be a Plat 100% leu het...right? Seems to me that plats can vary from really light to darker so is it possible the few "standards" that are het for both actually are a dark plat?

Along that line of thinking, if they can both be passed on to the same joey, couldn't a Platinum 100% leu het go on to produce plats even when paired with a grey(not het for anything)?

Edited to add:

If they are inherited separately and on different loci(but can & often do interact), isn't it more accurate to think of the genetic inheritance of a Platinum 100% leu het(that has one plat gene and one leu gene) as a 100% plat het and a 100% leu het? Therefore the offspring actually has a 50% chance of inheriting each but may not inherit either one?


Edited by animalloversfb (01/25/13 02:08 PM)
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:grey: :wfb: :rtmo:

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#1322015 - 01/25/13 03:49 PM Re: Platinum Inheritance Question [Re: animalloversfb]
GliderNursery Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 09/14/07
Posts: 20049
Loc: North Central Ohio
Originally Posted By: GliderFun
I'm curious if you bred your two Plats that you got out of your mosaic to test and see if they were TRUE plats or if they were plat mosaics (which really have nothing to do with the plat gene as far as I remember but I could be wrong).

Dealing with a mosaic it tricky in my opinion because they can produce gliders that look very similar to other colors (WT, Plat, Leu) which may confuse people into thinking they are carrying genes that they are not. (again, to my understanding)

I'm not saying this is the case but have the babies been bred to prove it out? I'm assuming if you breed a plat to a gray with no plat or leu in its lineage you will get gray, 100% plat hets.

To test and see if the babies are really plats or if they are plat mosaics, breed the babies to a standard gray with no recessives. If they produce similar offspring, or produce mosaics, the babies would be plat mosaics and not plats.


I think I got that right! *shrug*


Those that have what are called "True Platinum Mosaics" (TPM) are actually Platinum gliders and also Mosaic gliders. If you paired a TPM with a standard grey, not het for plat or leu, you will only get classic grey and mosaic joeys. They would also be considered 100% PH.
If you pair it with a leu, plat, or het for either, and had a plat offspring, all you would prove is that it does in fact have the gene. You can't really prove that a TPM is truly platinum other than looking at it when its a young joey just OOP.

Very difficult for me to explain. Those that have them can maybe explain it better than I can.

BTW, not sure if you were referring to me, but I don't have TPMs. Also, I don't refer to mosaics as being platinum mosaic if they don't have the potential of being a TPM, I call them Silver Mosaics. But that's another topic all together. wink

Originally Posted By: animalloversfb
So Shelly, you believe that Leu and Plat are not carried on the same locus? That they are passed on independently? If that is the case, there would have to be a gene controlling there interacting as standard 100% plat het and 100% leu hets typically would be a Plat 100% leu het...right? Seems to me that plats can vary from really light to darker so is it possible the few "standards" that are het for both actually are a dark plat?

I'm not good at specific genetics as I'm by far not a genetics expert. I don't know how to answer your question, but I'll do my best. But no, I don't think the 100% PH, 100% LH is a dark plat at all. A dark plat will exhibit the characteristics of being a platinum, just a bit darker. The hets can be very grey leaving no question that they are not platinum.

Along that line of thinking, if they can both be passed on to the same joey, couldn't a Platinum 100% leu het go on to produce plats even when paired with a grey(not het for anything)?
No, a Plat, 100% LH glider can't produce color on its own accord. The mate would also have to contribute either a plat or leu gene to produce color.

Edited to add:

If they are inherited separately and on different loci(but can & often do interact), isn't it more accurate to think of the genetic inheritance of a Platinum 100% leu het(that has one plat gene and one leu gene) as a 100% plat het and a 100% leu het? Therefore the offspring actually has a 50% chance of inheriting each but may not inherit either one?

No, I wouldn't consider a Plat 100% LH as a 100% PH, 100% LH. If the fur color is platinum, then it's a platinum glider, not a plat het.


I'm not sure they are on the same locus/allele or not. They definitely work together in some fashion. Yes, there are different shades of the platinum gliders, I'm not sure what causes that.

From what I have experienced, a joey can inherit both genes and pass both genes on to the offspring. What I don't know is if the leu offspring does carry the plat gene as well.

Also, my pairing has done what no others have to my knowledge. I have a plat and a leu that have had leu babies, plat babies, and standard grey babies.

As far as the percentage the offspring would be considered, I go from what they are on paper, so to speak. If the joey comes from a color parent, it's considered a 100% het. Many breeders have agreed with this logic, others don't. Since we don't know for sure, I go with what we have done for years in sugar gliders. (I also fully explain these things to those that buy my joeys so they aren't "misrepresented".)
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#1322028 - 01/25/13 04:44 PM Re: Platinum Inheritance Question [Re: GliderNursery]
animalloversfb Offline
Glider Explorer

Registered: 09/26/11
Posts: 212
Loc: VA
Originally Posted By: GliderNursery

As far as the percentage the offspring would be considered, I go from what they are on paper, so to speak. If the joey comes from a color parent, it's considered a 100% het. Many breeders have agreed with this logic, others don't. Since we don't know for sure, I go with what we have done for years in sugar gliders. (I also fully explain these things to those that buy my joeys so they aren't "misrepresented".)


And i guess this gets the heart of my question, if you have a Platinum that is platinum because it has one copy of the plat gene and one copy of the leu gene but is expressing Platinum color...I don't understand how the offspring can be considered 100% platinum het. Offspring from a grey joey that has the same genes(i.e. 100% het for platinum and 100% het for leu) wouldn't be considered 100% plat het...but offspring from a platinum joey that genetically speaking is 100% het for plat and 100% het for leu(because they have only ONE copy of each "color") are said to be 100% plat het...that just doesn't make sense to me as there is a 50/50 chance in each breeding that the gene would be passed along...
_________________________
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http://sugarglidershowroom.weebly.com/

:grey: :wfb: :rtmo:

:rbridge:


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#1322033 - 01/25/13 05:04 PM Re: Platinum Inheritance Question [Re: animalloversfb]
GliderNursery Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 09/14/07
Posts: 20049
Loc: North Central Ohio
It's a 100% platinum het because the parent IS a platinum. And if you pair the offspring correctly, it reacts the same as any other 100% het does.

Look at it like this - a leu has to have 2 leu genes to be a leu glider. That leu glider produces a het. It is only passing one gene to its offspring, but its considered a 100% het.

The hets out of plats and leus have passed both genes, so they can inherit both genes. So why would we call it less than 100%?

Originally Posted By: animalloversfb
Offspring from a grey joey that has the same genes(i.e. 100% het for platinum and 100% het for leu) wouldn't be considered 100% plat het...but offspring from a platinum joey that genetically speaking is 100% het for plat and 100% het for leu(because they have only ONE copy of each "color") are said to be 100% plat het...that just doesn't make sense to me as there is a 50/50 chance in each breeding that the gene would be passed along...


I'm not sure I fully understand what you are saying above. If a glider is classic grey in physical appearance, but is genetically 100% PH, 100% LH and is paired with a non-het, it's offspring would be 50% PH, 50% LH.

If it were paired with a het, the % would increase based on whatever % the other parent is. This is calculated the same for a PH/LH as it is for any other recessive gene.

Offspring from a Platinum, if they are classic grey in color, are considered 100% PH. Keep in mind they are only going to be considered LH if there is leu in the genetics. There are plat lines out there with no leu in them.

If the glider is a Platinum, you would not consider it genetically 100% PH, 100% LH. You would consider it Platinum (and LH if leu is in the lines).
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#1322070 - 01/25/13 07:37 PM Re: Platinum Inheritance Question [Re: animalloversfb]
GliderFun Offline
Glider Lover

Registered: 04/07/08
Posts: 320
Loc: NY
I understand that mosaic and plat can be expressed together and if you breed a true plat mosaic to a gray you would get a mosaic 100% het plat, or a gray 100% het plat.

I read your article.

Sunshine is a leu from leu and plat lines
She is paired with a mosaic out of leu lines (no plat lines).

They produced a mosaic baby.

You paired this Mosaic baby with a Leu and got 2 babies you called platinums.

Is is not possible that those babies you produced from a mosaic glider are really just plat mosaics (NOT TPM, but just plat colored mosaics, or as you call them, silver mosaics)?

If not, then why, since a min marked mosaic can go to produce a "silver mosaic".


Or were they bred to a gray sugar glider to prove they weren't mosaic and were in fact platinum.
(If they were platinum, they would have produced gray gliders if bred to a gray glider. If they were mosaics, they could produce mosaic when bred to gray gliders).



I guess, what I'm asking you is, HOW DO YOU KNOW those two babies out of your mosaic glider are NOT just "silver mosaics" since they can look pretty identical to Platinum gliders?

Did you test breed them?

(I'm talking about Cash and Liani).

*breath* lol

Or am I way confused?


Edited by GliderFun (01/25/13 07:38 PM)

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#1322099 - 01/25/13 08:12 PM Re: Platinum Inheritance Question [Re: GliderNursery]
animalloversfb Offline
Glider Explorer

Registered: 09/26/11
Posts: 212
Loc: VA
Originally Posted By: GliderNursery


Offspring from a Platinum, if they are classic grey in color, are considered 100% PH. Keep in mind they are only going to be considered LH if there is leu in the genetics. There are plat lines out there with no leu in them.

If the glider is a Platinum, you would not consider it genetically 100% PH, 100% LH. You would consider it Platinum (and LH if leu is in the lines).


Let me try to explain my question a different way.

A "het" means the chance it is carrying ONE copy of a particular gene. A 100% het of ANY recessive trait means it has ONE copy of a particular gene which is why genetically speaking, when doing a punnett square, you should treat a Platinum 100% leu het the same as a Standard Grey 100% plat het 100% leu het.

For example. A Platinum with NO leu in its background(in other words has TWO copies of the platinum gene) is bred to a Leu(who has TWO copies of the leu gene) with NO plat in its background.

If they have a grey offspring - that offspring is 100% plat het 100% leu het.

If they have a Platinum offspring, that offspring is 100% leu het and only has ONE copy of the platinum gene(which is why to me it is easier to think of them as 100% plat hets in terms of the genes they would carry for this discussion, I apologize if that is confusing). So they have ONE copy of each gene.

Either way, a plat or a standard from a Leu and a Plat(out of non-leu lines) would have one copy of the leu gene and one copy of the platinum gene. If bred to a standard grey(no hets), calling their offspring 100% Plat Hets shouldn't be correct unless we are saying they definitely inherit the plat gene at every breeding.

Genetically when looking up what percentage the offspring would be considered, the plat parent should be looked at as if they are a 100% plat het(again because they only have ONE copy of the plat gene not two) and 100% leu het(again because they only have ONE copy of the leu gene). This only applies of course to Plats that are Plat 100% leu het, not plats that are Platinum because they carry two copies of the Platinum gene.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
We don't do this with any other colors - like a Cremino bred to a Leu would produce standard grey 100% cremino 100% leu hets. Just because the Leu & Plat genes interact, doesn't' change the fact that the offspring only has ONE copy of the gene and has a 50/50 chance at passing it on to his offspring.
_________________________
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http://sugarglidershowroom.weebly.com/

:grey: :wfb: :rtmo:

:rbridge:


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#1322105 - 01/25/13 08:29 PM Re: Platinum Inheritance Question [Re: GliderFun]
animalloversfb Offline
Glider Explorer

Registered: 09/26/11
Posts: 212
Loc: VA
Originally Posted By: GliderFun
I'm curious if you bred your two Plats that you got out of your mosaic to test and see if they were TRUE plats or if they were plat mosaics (which really have nothing to do with the plat gene as far as I remember but I could be wrong).

Dealing with a mosaic it tricky in my opinion because they can produce gliders that look very similar to other colors (WT, Plat, Leu) which may confuse people into thinking they are carrying genes that they are not. (again, to my understanding)

I'm not saying this is the case but have the babies been bred to prove it out? I'm assuming if you breed a plat to a gray with no plat or leu in its lineage you will get gray, 100% plat hets.

To test and see if the babies are really plats or if they are plat mosaics, breed the babies to a standard gray with no recessives. If they produce similar offspring, or produce mosaics, the babies would be plat mosaics and not plats.


I think I got that right! *shrug*


Mosaic adds in another gene to the mix - I'm strictly talking about Platinum 100% leu hets from a Platinum(no leu) and Leu(no plat) pairing and why it is considered that they always pass on the Platinum gene when they only have one copy of it...
_________________________
Sara
http://sugarglidershowroom.weebly.com/

:grey: :wfb: :rtmo:

:rbridge:


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#1322106 - 01/25/13 08:34 PM Re: Platinum Inheritance Question [Re: animalloversfb]
GliderFun Offline
Glider Lover

Registered: 04/07/08
Posts: 320
Loc: NY
I'm not talking about what you said.

Glidernursery referred to an article she wrote and I'm very confused about her article.

I'm confused how she KNEW without a doubt that the "platinum looking gliders" out of a mosaic parent was really platinum and not silver mosaic if there was no test breeding done on those gliders

*confuzzled*

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#1322113 - 01/25/13 09:06 PM Re: Platinum Inheritance Question [Re: animalloversfb]
GliderNursery Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 09/14/07
Posts: 20049
Loc: North Central Ohio
Gliderfun, don't confuse the fact that because I wrote that article that all of those are my gliders. Miranda never belonged to me. I own her twin brother Bosley. wink Also, if you'd like to discuss this, please feel free to call me. I think talking it out sometimes makes it easier to understand (at least it does with me).

How do we know Cash and Liani are Plats and not TPMs? You can tell by the pics. They have no mosaic markings at all. A silver mosaic is totally different. Did you click on the lineage to look at the photo?

Sara - I honestly can't answer your questions any better than I have. I'm not saying you are wrong, but that's not how I will label my gliders. There is no way, without testing, to know exactly how these genes work. I don't know if they have to always interact or if they can interact and work independently.

Think of the way you have figured the punnet square. Put a Plat, 100% LH and a Leu (no Plat) in there. Your offspring should be only leus and plats, right? Can you explain how I have gotten a standard grey out of that pairing? I can't. I think there is more to these genetics than a simple punnet square can explain. I wish I knew more about genetics, but I just don't. frown
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#1324245 - 02/02/13 09:16 PM Re: Platinum Inheritance Question [Re: animalloversfb]
animalloversfb Offline
Glider Explorer

Registered: 09/26/11
Posts: 212
Loc: VA
Shelly, do you have pictures of Bosley & Bernard that you could share?


I also was looking at the Leu offspring of Miranda - her ears look pretty dark to me, but it could be because of a shadow...I'm going to try and get in touch with them to see if they have any other photos of her.
_________________________
Sara
http://sugarglidershowroom.weebly.com/

:grey: :wfb: :rtmo:

:rbridge:


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#1324257 - 02/02/13 10:15 PM Re: Platinum Inheritance Question [Re: animalloversfb]
GliderNursery Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 09/14/07
Posts: 20049
Loc: North Central Ohio
You would have to contact Shannon for pics of Bernard. I have some of Bosley that I will have to get. They aren't on this computer. I do have one of him on my site, but it's not the greatest. HERE
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Don't sacrifice quality information for convenient information.


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