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#1323549 - 01/31/13 11:51 AM Gliderkid/Candy's Blended Diet Concerns
finnessa Offline
Glider Guardian

Registered: 07/29/09
Posts: 847
Loc: New Jersey
http://www.sugarglider.com/glidergossip/topic.asp?whichpage=9&TOPIC_ID=29199&#416194

In this post you say:
Quote:
Candy Goofy Gorillatoes USA 4014 Posts
Jan 28 2013 : 09:10:31 PM

Badly stained, brown fur is often a sign that the glider is not getting the nutrients needed to remain healthy. Badly cracked fur can also be a sign of a poor diet.

Look at the 'before' and after photos to see the changes that occur when gliders are switched to a better diet.

A healthy glider will have smooth even fur. Classic grey gliders will be a silvery grey color with out any brown coloration. Very few gliders are really the brown color seen in some of the before photos in this thread.


In this post you posted pictures
http://www.sugarglider.com/glidergossip/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=48392

This is the pic


Now on to my questions:
Is this your glider?
Is it some kind of special genetics that makes it BROWN?
Is its fur cracked?
Is this glider on your diet?
How many breeding pairs do you own?
How many joeys do they have or had?
How many joeys have been lost?
Can you provide current pictures of your gliders?
Have you made any changes or done any research or blood tests, x-rays, ANYTHING to substantiate this diet being safe and wholesome for the gliders?
What efforts have been done to prevent further issues like what was presented to you over a year ago?
I thought you removed your diet from public use? Wasn't that stated so you could work on fixing it? Why is it back up on your site with no changes or warnings?
With the name change of your diet, were there CHANGES made to it?



Edited by finnessa (01/31/13 04:28 PM)
_________________________
Mommy to
MANY gliders
2 dogs
2 cats
3 turtles
and 4 skin kids.

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#1323552 - 01/31/13 11:52 AM Re: Gliderkid/Candy's Blended Diet Concerns [Re: finnessa]
finnessa Offline
Glider Guardian

Registered: 07/29/09
Posts: 847
Loc: New Jersey
Please I beg you all, do not turn this into a bash and rant so it ends up getting pulled. Let's be civil and get the answers that could potentially benefit a lot of new owners out there.
_________________________
Mommy to
MANY gliders
2 dogs
2 cats
3 turtles
and 4 skin kids.

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#1323601 - 01/31/13 01:40 PM Re: Gliderkid/Candy's Blended Diet Concerns [Re: finnessa]
CandyOtte Offline
Serious Glideritis

Registered: 09/03/08
Posts: 5138
Loc: Lutz Florida
Finessa, You posted these questions on LGG and I have already posted my answers. I see no reason to repeat myself.

If anyone wishes to join the discussion it can be found here:

http://lauriesglidergazette.forumotion.com/

For those of you concerned about the glider in the photo:
Yes that glider is Archie. The photo was taken to illustrate the use of a hanging feeder cup. It was taken shortly after he joined our family. He had been raised on fruit shaped parrot food.

If you would like to look over my GliderKids Feeding Plan you will find the information on how my plan was developed and modified here:

http://www.gliderkids.com/GKSFeedingPlanHistory.pdf

My feeding plan and GliderKids Staple recipes:

http://www.gliderkids.com/GKSFeedingPlan2013.pdf

Thank you Finessa for providing the opportunity to post links to my feeding plan.
_________________________
Candy Otte
& the Glider Kids
Sassy, Corky, Mehitabel & Missy
Wacco, Yacco, & Dot
Mindy, Kanobles, Elmo, & Chipper

http://www.gliderkids-diet.com

CandyOtte@aol.com

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#1323602 - 01/31/13 01:43 PM Re: Gliderkid/Candy's Blended Diet Concerns [Re: finnessa]
GliderNursery Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 09/14/07
Posts: 20049
Loc: North Central Ohio
Candy - that forum is not available to just anyone to join. I would greatly appreciate it if you would just take a moment to at least copy/paste your responses here. I honestly think that this is very important and needs to be openly discussed.
_________________________
Shelly

Don't sacrifice quality information for convenient information.


Glider Nursery

Sugar Glider Foundation



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#1323609 - 01/31/13 02:03 PM Re: Gliderkid/Candy's Blended Diet Concerns [Re: finnessa]
finnessa Offline
Glider Guardian

Registered: 07/29/09
Posts: 847
Loc: New Jersey
Sorry Candy but I will not be adding new people to LGG just so they can read answers you can easily post here. LGG is not a forum for everyone and we don't just add people for one post. You know this already.

I posted this here because the newer owners/breeders as well as the under 18 individuals who aren't even allowed access to LGG at all need to see these questions and answers so they can make accurate choices in picking diets. They are important questions and not attacks.
_________________________
Mommy to
MANY gliders
2 dogs
2 cats
3 turtles
and 4 skin kids.

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#1323626 - 01/31/13 03:34 PM Re: Gliderkid/Candy's Blended Diet Concerns [Re: finnessa]
KarenE Offline
Owner

Registered: 03/25/00
Posts: 41155
Loc: LittleRock, AR USA
Candy, not all of our members can or may not even want to join another forum.

At GliderCENTRAL Eddie and I believe all glider related topics can be discussed as long as they are done so within Board Rules .
_________________________
Your Sugar Glider Resource Center
Sugar Glider Help



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#1323694 - 01/31/13 06:51 PM Re: Gliderkid/Candy's Blended Diet Concerns [Re: finnessa]
CandyOtte Offline
Serious Glideritis

Registered: 09/03/08
Posts: 5138
Loc: Lutz Florida
RESPONSES COPIED FROM LGG AND EDITED FOR THIS FORUM

Is this glider on your diet that you claim is healthy for gliders even though so many issues have surfaced? The photo was taken when he was new to my home and before my staple recipes had been developed.

How many breeding pairs do you own? 1 pair now retired from breeding because the family colony is complete.
How many joeys do they have or had? 6 - 5 are part of the colony, 1 is with Art and Paulette
How many joeys have been lost? none

Why do we never see pics of these joeys? There have been a few posted here and there. I don't post photos just for the 'aw they are cute' replies
Can you provide current pictures of your gliders? I'll try to get some current ones for you when I get my camera back from my son. I have not taken any photos lately.

Have you made any changes or done any research or blood tests, x-rays, ANYTHING to substantiate this diet being safe and wholesome for the gliders?

I have made changes in my recipes. http://www.gliderkids.com/GKSFeedingPlanHistory.pdf


The body maintains its blood calcium level regardless of the amount of calcium consumed daily. A complex system involving hormones regulate the amount of calcium deposited in the bones or drawn out of the bones and amounts of calcium excreted or retained by the kidneys to maintain this homeostasis.

Quote:
A blood calcium test cannot be used to check for a lack of calcium in your diet or for the loss of calcium from the bones (osteoporosis). The body can have normal calcium levels even if your diet does not have enough calcium in it. Other tests, such as bone mineral density, check the amount of calcium in the bones.


More information can be found in this article.
http://www.webmd.com/a-to-z-guides/calcium-ca-in-blood

It has been suggested that a Bile Acid Test be done. This test is done SPECIFICALLY to test for Liver Disease and does not test how food is metabolized. This test was never done on a glider prior to 2009. This testing was first done as an alternative to a liver biopsy on a glider found to have a liver tumor shown on x-ray.
http://www.glidercentral.net/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php/topics/799282/2

In most animals this test is done with two blood draws - one before feeding and one 2 hours after a full meal to compare the rate the bile acid falls after eating. If the liver is normal it falls fairly quickly, if it is abnormal the bile acid reabsorbed by the gut is not cleared from the blood well so the post feeding levels are elevated. I would be interested to see how the procedure is adapted for gliders as it would be difficult to do two blood draws under anesthesia in the same day, much less trying to get a glider to eat a substantial amount between the two blood draws. A single blood draw would not be as useful as the pre/post meal comparison


Blood testing for calcium and phosphorus levels is NOT a valid measure of the calcium adequacy in the diet. Bile Acid Testing is not a valid test for the nutritional content of the food eaten, it is specific for testing liver function. I will not risk putting my gliders under anesthesia for testing that is not useful.


I thought you removed your diet from public use? Wasn't that stated so you could work on fixing it? Why is it back up on your site with no changes or warnings? I took my feeding plan down for the sole purpose of putting an end to the personal attacks. The discussions had nothing to do with the diet at that point
With the name change of your diet, were there CHANGES made to it? Or new name is like putting a rug over your actions or lack there of?
Read the link I posted above
_________________________
Candy Otte
& the Glider Kids
Sassy, Corky, Mehitabel & Missy
Wacco, Yacco, & Dot
Mindy, Kanobles, Elmo, & Chipper

http://www.gliderkids-diet.com

CandyOtte@aol.com

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#1323697 - 01/31/13 07:04 PM Re: Gliderkid/Candy's Blended Diet Concerns [Re: finnessa]
GliderNursery Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 09/14/07
Posts: 20049
Loc: North Central Ohio
Candy, there are legitimate, and serious concerns regarding your diet. There were several reported issues. Have you addressed these issues with the change in the cereal and WHPS? If so, how will these changes remove the future potential of the previous issues?
_________________________
Shelly

Don't sacrifice quality information for convenient information.


Glider Nursery

Sugar Glider Foundation



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#1323698 - 01/31/13 07:08 PM Re: Gliderkid/Candy's Blended Diet Concerns [Re: finnessa]
finnessa Offline
Glider Guardian

Registered: 07/29/09
Posts: 847
Loc: New Jersey
What efforts have been done to prevent further issues like what was presented to you over a year ago?

Did you run your previous diet and current diet by a vet and/or an animal nutritionist?


Edited by finnessa (01/31/13 07:18 PM)
_________________________
Mommy to
MANY gliders
2 dogs
2 cats
3 turtles
and 4 skin kids.

Top
#1323702 - 01/31/13 07:17 PM Re: Gliderkid/Candy's Blended Diet Concerns [Re: finnessa]
finnessa Offline
Glider Guardian

Registered: 07/29/09
Posts: 847
Loc: New Jersey
My main issue in this Candy, is that even with pulling down the recipe from your site for the BLENDED diet, you never made any kind of public acknowledgement about the issues that were going on. You never made any kind of effort to make people who were and are still currently using the diet aware of it. People had pdf copies of the diet, they didn't have to keep coming to the site to get a fresh look. You then changed the name and it then looks to some newer people that you never had a bad diet, you only have this NEW diet. When in fact it is a SLIGHTLY altered version of the previous version.

I see you removed the cereal... was there a deciding factor in doing so? What made you choose that specific ingredient?

I see you say you increased the WHPS but you also increased everything else in order to make larger batches at one time. How do you know the measurement of WHPS is accurate and/or safe?

What about the increase in other ingredients? Are you certain it is safe?

Will it come down to in the end once again, that after a year or more of using the diet people will begin to see problems as happened with The Blended diet?
_________________________
Mommy to
MANY gliders
2 dogs
2 cats
3 turtles
and 4 skin kids.

Top
#1323706 - 01/31/13 07:27 PM Re: Gliderkid/Candy's Blended Diet Concerns [Re: finnessa]
CandyOtte Offline
Serious Glideritis

Registered: 09/03/08
Posts: 5138
Loc: Lutz Florida
Past reports of issues were fully beaten into the ground two years ago.

If anyone currently using my GliderKids Feeding Plan has concerns I will gladly discuss this with the owner that has first hand observations to discuss.

There are no ingredients in my recipes that are not used in a number of other glider feeding plans. There are no perfect glider staples. If you do not care for a feeding plan you are free to choose another.

Yes, my recipes have my vet's approval. She feels my gliders are all very healthy.

If anyone has specific questions or concerns about my recipes please feel free to ask.
_________________________
Candy Otte
& the Glider Kids
Sassy, Corky, Mehitabel & Missy
Wacco, Yacco, & Dot
Mindy, Kanobles, Elmo, & Chipper

http://www.gliderkids-diet.com

CandyOtte@aol.com

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#1323715 - 01/31/13 07:37 PM Re: Gliderkid/Candy's Blended Diet Concerns [Re: finnessa]
CandyOtte Offline
Serious Glideritis

Registered: 09/03/08
Posts: 5138
Loc: Lutz Florida
There were concerns expressed that the iron fortified baby cereal added too much iron to glider diets. I removed the baby cereal from the recipe and added additional Wombaroo High Protein Supplement in its place. This modification allowed a slight reduction of the calcium supplement while still keeping the ratio of the staple after preparation close to a 2:1 calcium to phosphorus ratio.

The calcium content of the staple allows any combination of fruits and vegetables to be fed with it with out reducing the overall ratio of the entire feeding below 1.5:1.
_________________________
Candy Otte
& the Glider Kids
Sassy, Corky, Mehitabel & Missy
Wacco, Yacco, & Dot
Mindy, Kanobles, Elmo, & Chipper

http://www.gliderkids-diet.com

CandyOtte@aol.com

Top
#1323726 - 01/31/13 07:54 PM Re: Gliderkid/Candy's Blended Diet Concerns [Re: CandyOtte]
GliderNursery Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 09/14/07
Posts: 20049
Loc: North Central Ohio
Originally Posted By: CandyOtte
Past reports of issues were fully beaten into the ground two years ago.


Beaten into the ground, kind of. The issues were never addressed by you as the diet creator. How are we to know that this diet will not continue to cause issues? Since you have been posting it lately, people are going to become more aware of it and new owners will start using it. Will we see a repeat of the past issues with new users?

If you are not prepared to discuss the issues and if your changes to the diet have addressed those past concerns, then I cannot see how this diet can be recommended or safely used. Was your vet made aware of the past issues? And if so, what was suggested?
_________________________
Shelly

Don't sacrifice quality information for convenient information.


Glider Nursery

Sugar Glider Foundation



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#1323734 - 01/31/13 08:15 PM Re: Gliderkid/Candy's Blended Diet Concerns [Re: finnessa]
finnessa Offline
Glider Guardian

Registered: 07/29/09
Posts: 847
Loc: New Jersey
Are there specific things your vet looks at/for when seeing your gliders and overlooking the diet plan? Or is it just well check weights and fecals? I'm with Shelly, was your vet made aware of any issues that were brought upon by The Blended diet/Gliderkids diet?

Animal feed that has recalls HAS to show that whatever the issue was that caused the recall was taken care of....and that is according to the FDA. Obviously our diets are NOT FDA regulated BUT, Surely it would be safe to have found out what exactly was causing issues with one diet before choosing to modify it and smack a new name on it right?
_________________________
Mommy to
MANY gliders
2 dogs
2 cats
3 turtles
and 4 skin kids.

Top
#1323737 - 01/31/13 08:24 PM Re: Gliderkid/Candy's Blended Diet Concerns [Re: finnessa]
SLHamil Offline
Glider Explorer

Registered: 01/17/13
Posts: 171
Loc: Maryland
Someone on GG is calling you the most knowledgable diet person they know. Maybe the issues were beaten into the ground, but newer members deserve knowing there were concerns that were never addressed.

Fwiw, i applaud you for recommending a diet that isn't your own to the poster on GG.
_________________________
~Shannon
mommy to 2yo daughter, 5 yo son, 2.5 yo bunny, and a 1yo mutt :-)
Proud owner of Grace, Cort, and Ari smile

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#1323759 - 01/31/13 09:36 PM Re: Gliderkid/Candy's Blended Diet Concerns [Re: finnessa]
CandyOtte Offline
Serious Glideritis

Registered: 09/03/08
Posts: 5138
Loc: Lutz Florida
Shannon, the issues included, stained or cracked fur, and if I recall correctly reduced energy. These were reported by a few breeders who never approached me directly with their concerns. Surprisingly, none of these breeders took these gliders to their vet. Instead, they switched their gliders to HPW and within a very short time - some less than a week - the issues all resolved.

My attempts to discuss the types of vegetables fed with the staple, heating and dry air conditions (the discussion took place about this time of year) or other possible contributing factors were met with hostility. The 5 or 6 breeders that reported these issues all refused to discuss their concerns directly with me. Apparently only breeders were having problems at the time.

The whole thread eventually shifted focus away from discussion of the staple recipes and on to rather negative comments aimed at me personally.

I did remove my feeding plan from my web page - to end the personal bashing that was taking place on 3 different forums. I received many emails after that time from folks that were very happy with my feeding plan and requesting copies because they had been referring to the web page and had not printed a copy for themselves.

If you have other questions I will be happy to address them.
_________________________
Candy Otte
& the Glider Kids
Sassy, Corky, Mehitabel & Missy
Wacco, Yacco, & Dot
Mindy, Kanobles, Elmo, & Chipper

http://www.gliderkids-diet.com

CandyOtte@aol.com

Top
#1323766 - 01/31/13 10:01 PM Re: Gliderkid/Candy's Blended Diet Concerns [Re: CandyOtte]
GliderNursery Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 09/14/07
Posts: 20049
Loc: North Central Ohio
Originally Posted By: CandyOtte
Shannon, the issues included, stained or cracked fur, and if I recall correctly reduced energy.


What about the reported issues of increased rates of cannibalization, low OOP weights, malnutrition, and weight loss?
_________________________
Shelly

Don't sacrifice quality information for convenient information.


Glider Nursery

Sugar Glider Foundation



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#1323800 - 01/31/13 11:17 PM Re: Gliderkid/Candy's Blended Diet Concerns [Re: SLHamil]
Feather Offline
Administrator

Registered: 01/19/08
Posts: 11943
Loc: Wisconsin
Originally Posted By: SLHamil
Someone on GG is calling you the most knowledgable diet person they know. Maybe the issues were beaten into the ground, but newer members deserve knowing there were concerns that were never addressed.

Fwiw, i applaud you for recommending a diet that isn't your own to the poster on GG.


If this person on GG considers Candy to be the most knowledgeable diet person they know, I would like to know what credentials Candy has.

Does she have a degree in animal science? Animal nutrition?
If she doesn't have a veterinarian or animal nutritionist helping her with her diet, then she must hold a degree in animal nutrition.
_________________________
Kimberley
Feathers-Sweetie, Sklyar Blue, Mister Peanut, Big Mack & Ibo
Fur-Widget, Guinan, Mr. Spock, T'Mir, Micheal, Stevie, Cho & :bb: T'Pol, Elizabeth & Curzon :wfb: TY, TJ & T'Pring :rtmo: O'Ryan :leu:
Forever in my heart, Gizmo, Tucker and the rest of my babies over the :rbridge:


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#1323810 - 01/31/13 11:52 PM Re: Gliderkid/Candy's Blended Diet Concerns [Re: finnessa]
finnessa Offline
Glider Guardian

Registered: 07/29/09
Posts: 847
Loc: New Jersey
Candy, you stated this over on LGG. Several of the breeders who had issues aren't a part of LGG for one reason or another so I will share it here.

Quote:
What efforts have been done to prevent further issues like what was presented to you over a year ago? I feel there was a hidden agenda behind the 'issues' and the miracle cures that occurred within DAYS of switching to HPW. I will not revisit this


Can you please explain what you mean by hidden agenda? One breeders glider died, the necropsy stated Malnutrition was the cause of death. There is no hidden agenda in a loss of life.

Why would the diet not publicly be redacted and fixed rather than pull it to save face? The only people who knew of the issues were those present when it happened and those present in the posts. Whether there was one bad effect or a million bad effects, something should have been done to find out WHY it was happening. Things turned hostile because you refused to even consider that the diet as a whole could have been an issue and not the little sidebars you were trying to come up with.

People may not see issues in their diet right away, animals are the same. We constantly tell people that if they don't like how a diet works for us and our animals that we should pick another. These breeders did just that and their animals health did a 360, it wasn't DAYS some took weeks, others took months. Improvements were seen within DAYS. Not full recovery. They were then met by a creator with blinders on when the issues are being discussed, surely it wasn't pretty. Not a single person came forward because they thought it must have only been happening to them when in fact there were at least a dozen if not more. Slowly over the last 2 years more popped up as recently as this past November. Posted right here on GC. It wasn't a one time occurrence.
_________________________
Mommy to
MANY gliders
2 dogs
2 cats
3 turtles
and 4 skin kids.

Top
#1323842 - 02/01/13 08:09 AM Re: Gliderkid/Candy's Blended Diet Concerns [Re: finnessa]
Guerita135 Offline
Glider Addict

Registered: 08/05/07
Posts: 4645
Loc: Ohio
I just wanted to hop in and say that blood tests CAN show a lack of calcium, but you have to test for Calcium AND Phosphorus. If a glider isn't getting enough Calcium then the Phosphorus levels will be significantly higher. The normal calcium ratios for a glider are 2:1, so if the blood's Cal:Phos ratios are significantly different than 2:1 it signifies a problem. When I had my gliders on HPW their ratios were about 10:1(if I remember correctly...I'll have to try and dig up the info), which is how my vet found out that they were lacking calcium, in addition to the outward signs.

So, blood tests DO help to determine whether or not a diet is doing it's job. Tests can be done for other things as well, such as iron levels.
_________________________
~Nicole~

Proudly enslaved by lots of silly suggies, 3 crazy kitties, a huffy hedgie, and a pretty puppy! grin

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#1323886 - 02/01/13 12:23 PM Re: Gliderkid/Candy's Blended Diet Concerns [Re: finnessa]
CandyOtte Offline
Serious Glideritis

Registered: 09/03/08
Posts: 5138
Loc: Lutz Florida
It appears that some individuals wish to revisit all of the past discussions about my original recipes which was called the Blended diet.

Quote:
newer members deserve knowing there were concerns that were never addressed.


Rather than attempting to recreate the discussions - I have found links to some early discussions of the original Blended diet
http://www.glidercentral.net/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php/topics/889048/Blended_diet#Post889048

If you want to know my responses to the concerns that were raised two years ago, here is part one of the thread. I could not find Part Two.
http://www.glidercentral.net/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php/topics/1068095/1

Finessa - I intentionally removed that portion of my responses to your questions which was copied from LGG. I am unable to elaborate on what I believe was a hidden agenda because it would touch on topics other than my own feeding plan.


Quote:
Does she have a degree in animal science? Animal nutrition?


Protein, Carbohydrates, Fat, Fiber, Iron, Vitamins and Minerals are nutrients found in foods. They are not nutritionally specific to animals or humans.

My education and experience is only an issue to those who are trying to discredit my development of recipes for my glider staple recipes. I have a BS Degree in Nursing from Duke University. My professional experience in nursing included a number of continuing education courses in nutrition - primarily for infants and toddlers. I worked for many years as a team member at program for young children with developmental developmental disabilities. Part of my role in this position was to evaluate the nutritional needs of children with various limitations in their feeding skills. For this population it was important to provide nutrient rich meals - often in small volume servings to help these children gain weight, increase muscle mass and promote their overall health. I worked with a number of physicians and therapists who referred parents to me for help in providing the nutrients these children needed. My interest in evaluating nutritional content of diets began many years before any one was keeping gliders as pets in the US.

Yes, I am guilty of breaking down diets on paper. I applied my diet evaluation skills and experience in planning feedings for children, to evaluating the glider feeding plans that were in use in 2008 when I got my first gliders.
Same evaluation skills - the portions were just much smaller.

In 2008 there was a huge focus on calcium to phosphorus ratios. Everyone was frustrated trying to choose the perfect vegetables and fruits to get a 2:1 ratio.

Unfortunately, many owners misunderstood the concept of ratios and were adding ratios rather than calculating the ratios based on the amounts of calcium and phosphorus in the volume of the foods they were choosing. The focus was on only the ratios of fruits and vegetables - without accounting for the ratio or amounts of calcium and phosphorus in their staple of choice fed with those fruits and vegetables. Since that time, I have made many posts to help people learn to 'do the math' to calculate ratios correctly.

At that time there were posts almost daily - "my glider won't eat fruit" or "my glider won't eat vegetables" Many folks thought there was too much honey in some diets, not enough in others. People tried substituting part of the honey with applesauce or making other modifications to existing staples in a major effort to get their gliders to eat fruits and vegetables. I wondered about the nutritional changes, not just the amount of honey when diets were modified.

I could not find any information giving the specific amounts of various nutrients gliders needed daily. I still have not been able to find that information. Without existing guidelines, I decided to evaluate the existing glider diets to see - what do they have in common, what are the nutritional differences, and what is the RANGE (high & low) values for the nutrients contained in the various glider staple recipes. From this research I determined the amounts of protein, sugar, fat, fiber in each diet recipe - in addition to the amounts of calcium and phosphorus. (I researched iron content over a year later) This research gave me a better idea of the nutritional content of many existing glider diets - My goal in writing my own recipes was to provide nutrient amounts between the highest and lowest values found in diets already shown to maintain gliders successfully.

The recipes for the Blended diet met that goal. As a bonus I discovered that gliders on this diet no longer refused the fruits and vegetables offered with the staple.

The recipes contained only ingredients already in wide use for glider feedings. I was not introducing any food product that had been never been offered to gliders before. The recipes contain standard ingredients in slightly different amounts.

The individuals who expressed concern about their gliders health focused ONLY on the staple. My attempts to discuss other elements of their gliders life that may have been factors in their observations were rejected. This group of individuals focused ONLY on the staple and blamed me personally.

Have there been incidents of joey loss in homes feeding other generally accepted glider feeding plans? Was the diet the only 'cause' identified or considered?

Have gliders had cracked fur or discoloration on other generally accepted glider feeding plans? Is there a feeding plan that has NEVER had gliders experience cracking fur?

I have shared my educational back ground and experience with evaluating foods and meal plans for their nutritional values. Has this information been sought from ANY other individual who has written a recipe for a staple or 'treat' for gliders? If it is relevant, perhaps others will share their information as well.

I have modified my recipes to reduce the iron content and lower the amount of calcium supplement needed to maintain a 2:1 ratio. Other feeding plans have made major changes in the amounts of one ingredient or another without notice or announcement. Priscilla Price's recipe has change at least 3 times since 2008. HPW called for 2 TBS of bee pollen until it was corrected to be 1 TBS. Have other recipe modifications required detailed reasons, announcements to the public that changes have been made or detailed explanations of why those changes were made?

I did change the name of my feeding plan from Blended Diet to GliderKids Staple because there had been individuals that confused the specific Blended Diet with any diet mixture prepared using a blender. There were others that thought the name meant that I had mixed the recipes for BML and HPW to come up with my recipe. My recipes were designed to provide nutrients mid-range between the amounts of nutrients found those diets, not to combine the two. Truth be told, in evaluating all of the diets in use in 2008 when I charted out the ingredients selected for use in all the various recipes, I became aware that the ingredients found in Reeps Wombaroo and those found in Original HPW - together - were similar to the list of ingredients found in BML. That is the extent of the 'blending' or combining of two recipes in the process of developing my diet. The name change was not a 'cover up' or 'sweep it under the rug' attempt. It was a way of identifying my recipes more clearly as my own work.




Edited by CandyOtte (02/01/13 12:30 PM)
_________________________
Candy Otte
& the Glider Kids
Sassy, Corky, Mehitabel & Missy
Wacco, Yacco, & Dot
Mindy, Kanobles, Elmo, & Chipper

http://www.gliderkids-diet.com

CandyOtte@aol.com

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#1323905 - 02/01/13 01:53 PM Re: Gliderkid/Candy's Blended Diet Concerns [Re: finnessa]
GliderNursery Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 09/14/07
Posts: 20049
Loc: North Central Ohio
I have one question, that only requires a simple yes or no answer.

Do you consider the presented issues and change your diet to eliminate or reduce those issues in your current recipe?
_________________________
Shelly

Don't sacrifice quality information for convenient information.


Glider Nursery

Sugar Glider Foundation



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#1323920 - 02/01/13 03:01 PM Re: Gliderkid/Candy's Blended Diet Concerns [Re: GliderNursery]
Terry Offline
Glider Addict

Registered: 04/29/12
Posts: 4838
Loc: Maryland
In my personal opinion, after reading this entire thread Candy has already answered all questions.
_________________________
Lives with:
1 God
1 dog, (Willow)
3 Sugies, (Ollie, Lulu, & Skadoosh)


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#1323921 - 02/01/13 03:17 PM Re: Gliderkid/Candy's Blended Diet Concerns [Re: finnessa]
CandyOtte Offline
Serious Glideritis

Registered: 09/03/08
Posts: 5138
Loc: Lutz Florida
The individuals who claimed the previously presented issues were not willing to engage in a meaningful discussion of other contributing factors, such as environmental issues like dry heated rooms or possibly colder than usual weather (the first concerns were raised 2/6/2011). I asked them for input on the fruits and vegetables they routinely fed, so I could see they types and variety that had been offered along side the staple. That information was never shared with me.

I have no knowledge of the length of time the gliders had been fed my staple recipe. I was not informed about which other diets they had been fed previously and for what length of time. The issues described were seen in only homes with breeding gliders but no information on the history of those gliders was shared such as the age of the gliders, how many joeys they had and over what period of time.

I was never presented with definitive information that caused me to believe that my staple recipe - and only my staple recipe - was the sole cause of the issues they had observed.

I reviewed all of my ingredient choices, revised my recipes to reduce the iron content based on input expressing concern about iron supplements in the baby cereal. Replacing the cereal with additional Wombaroo High Protein Supplement allowed a slight reduction in the calcium supplement.

I did not change my recipe for the purpose of eliminating or reducing those presented issues. Eliminating the presented issues is not within my power.

The presented issues had occurred before I developed my feeding plan and will continue occur regardless of the feeding plan used. These were never unique problems associated ONLY with my staple recipe.

Is there a staple recipe or feeding plan for sugar gliders that has NEVER had an issue associated with it?

Do any of the feeding plans unconditionally guarantee that a glider will never have a health issue as long as they are fed that staple?

The number of individuals that contacted me stating that they were pleased with their gliders health and that their gliders ate my staple, along with fruits and vegetables very well, far out numbered the few individuals who had issues.

I found it unusual that the few individuals that had issues, all apparently occurring about the same time, felt they should have their concerns announced by an individual whose own gliders were not involved. None of them had contacted me personally to express those concerns. The announcement of their concerns was made 2/6/2011.

Finessa -Have you had personal experience with my feeding plan? Did you have a specific reason for bringing this up almost 2 years after the initial discussion. In retrospect, the timing of this thread is as interesting as the timing of the original discussion. Perhaps you just wanted to celebrate the anniversary.
_________________________
Candy Otte
& the Glider Kids
Sassy, Corky, Mehitabel & Missy
Wacco, Yacco, & Dot
Mindy, Kanobles, Elmo, & Chipper

http://www.gliderkids-diet.com

CandyOtte@aol.com

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#1323928 - 02/01/13 04:13 PM Re: Gliderkid/Candy's Blended Diet Concerns [Re: CandyOtte]
finnessa Offline
Glider Guardian

Registered: 07/29/09
Posts: 847
Loc: New Jersey
Originally Posted By: CandyOtte


Finessa -Have you had personal experience with my feeding plan? Did you have a specific reason for bringing this up almost 2 years after the initial discussion. In retrospect, the timing of this thread is as interesting as the timing of the original discussion. Perhaps you just wanted to celebrate the anniversary.


I have always fed a safe and long standing diet to my gliders. I did not/ will not ever use your diet nor will I ever recommend someone to do so. Your lack of action in previous issues and current questioning does not settle the issues that did occur whether you choose to own those issues or not. I'm sorry that you do not like to have your diet questioned as every other diet known in the glider community has been questioned. Maybe you should take some time to reflect on your actions, you have no issue questioning other diets and making accusations against them that are false yet choose to not handle issues and questions against your own in a professional manner.

My bringing up of these past issues and old/new/revised diet questions has absolutely nothing to do with previous threads. If that had been the case I would have contacted each and every one of those breeders/owners to come share their piece once again which I did not. As I said, your diet has every right to be questioned same as all the rest. You made no real attempt to get to the bottom of previous issues, so to see that you reposted your diet with VERY slight modifications AND a new name brought up questions. As I told you yesterday, I do NOT follow you nor visit your site frequently, honestly after seeing the posts on GG it was then that I went to your site for the first time in over 2 years. I could be wrong but I don't believe I even posted in the previous threads, I know I didn't on LGG so the likelihood of me doing so here is slim. I had no idea you chose to repost your diet on the site being you never mentioned relaunching it.

Instead of trying to find answers to concerns you just claimed there were hidden agendas. Once again I will state, MALNUTRITION is not caused by humidity or dryness. Fur loss, canibalization, loss of joeys, loss of weight, lack of energy is NOT caused by humidity or dryness.

If you chose to do let's say weight watchers and died, your autopsy says MALNUTRITION is the cause of death and your children then question the makers and are asked to describe the humidity or lack thereof in your home, would they not be angry or feel insulted? Then find out the makers are claiming there is a hidden agenda behind the issues(death) would they not be offended?

If you don't like answering to your own actions or lack thereof Candy, perhaps you shouldn't be questioning another on theirs. Maybe you should work on an appropriate approach to the concerns laid before you rather than just removing one ingredient and slapping a new name on it.


Edited by finnessa (02/01/13 04:16 PM)
Edit Reason: changed a word to remove censor. LOL peed in another form is BAD lol :P
_________________________
Mommy to
MANY gliders
2 dogs
2 cats
3 turtles
and 4 skin kids.

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#1323945 - 02/01/13 05:17 PM Re: Gliderkid/Candy's Blended Diet Concerns [Re: finnessa]
GliderNursery Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 09/14/07
Posts: 20049
Loc: North Central Ohio
Thank you Candy for answering my question. If you weren't provided all of the necessary information needed to evaluate the situations, I don't have any other questions for you as you wouldn't be able to answer them. frown
_________________________
Shelly

Don't sacrifice quality information for convenient information.


Glider Nursery

Sugar Glider Foundation



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#1323981 - 02/01/13 07:12 PM Re: Gliderkid/Candy's Blended Diet Concerns [Re: finnessa]
ValkyrieMome Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 01/13/07
Posts: 10983
Loc: Denton, TX
There WERE cases of undernourished gliders, cannibalism, and gliders looking "sickly" while being fed Candy's diet. My gliders were some of them. I don't deny that, and neither does Candy! The group of breeders looked long and hard and got together and analyzed things - and the only thing in common was Candy's diet.

*I* chose to feed Candy's diet! I looked at the ingredients, I looked carefully at the ratios, I looked carefully at all of it - and I made the choice to feed Candy's Blended diet. I went directly to Candy to explain there was a problem! Candy was MORTIFIED! She apologized repeatedly to me, and asked me to help her determine what the problem was.

The problems, the symptoms, the gliders and breeders in question, and CANDY all participated in a very public discussion. I'm not sure any resolution was reached, but it was not a secret. From my own point of view - I'm sure further testing could have answered some questions, but I didn't have the money for further testing!

It is also A FACT that there have been MORE (many more) deaths and illnesses associated with feeding one of the false-HPW diets. There have been zero discussions regarding those gliders. There have been zero discussions with the creator of that diet publicly apologizing and trying to find a solution. The people who had those problems were threatened with a lawsuit, and so they never went public.

You - YOU! - the glider owner - have a choice of many diet plans to feed your gliders. You have to weigh the pros and cons, and make the best choice you are able. It is not the diet creator's responsibility. Candy offered only a recipe. She didn't package it up and market it commercially.

IF the diet is being commercially marketed, the diet creator would have some liability. Personally, if I were feeding a diet that is being commercially marketed, and that is causing illness and death, I'd demand some answers and some facts!
_________________________
Alden
"Animals can communicate quite well. And they do. And generally speaking, they are ignored." Alice Walker


Mom to Valhalla; 6 cats; 1 macaw; 2 hedgehogs;
and very many great gliders!

(plus the 2 skin kids)
valkyriegliders.com

Kyrie, nothing will ever fill the hole you left in my heart.

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#1323989 - 02/01/13 07:45 PM Re: Gliderkid/Candy's Blended Diet Concerns [Re: finnessa]
Dani4Hedgies Offline
Glider Slave

Registered: 04/24/09
Posts: 1408
Loc: Merriam KS
LOL Alden,
You beat me to it...I also fed Candy's diet and yet I didn't have any signs of problems with my gliders and yet Candy knew I fed her diet so SHE CONTACTED ME and asked that I not feed or give out her diet as some gliders had shown up with problems that COULD BE dieted related until she could research the problems. So as a breeder who both FED and was contacted BY Candy because of it I also want to know why this was all brought up again expectantly by someone who has clarified that she never feed the diet???

I mean YES it is our job to inform people of diets and such and such reactions/possible problems ect that are found but NO WHERE does GC state or even want people attacking another member which is how this thread has read to me as the original questions have been answered and answered by Candy as clearing as she can.
_________________________
Dani Marshall(816)377-4443
Slave to Patrick my Human Son
And in service too
Queen Jem Drop & King Stripes,
New Prince Cristal looking for his Princess/Queen
In Memory too
Addie,Igor,Heangel,Bashful,Doubledip,Sparky,Misty, King Badger, Badger Jr.,Queen Seabee, Princess Willow.

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#1323994 - 02/01/13 07:57 PM Re: Gliderkid/Candy's Blended Diet Concerns [Re: ValkyrieMome]
KarenE Offline
Owner

Registered: 03/25/00
Posts: 41155
Loc: LittleRock, AR USA
Originally Posted By: ValkyrieMome
There WERE cases of undernourished gliders, cannibalism, and gliders looking "sickly" while being fed Candy's diet. My gliders were some of them. I don't deny that, and neither does Candy! The group of breeders looked long and hard and got together and analyzed things - and the only thing in common was Candy's diet.

*I* chose to feed Candy's diet! I looked at the ingredients, I looked carefully at the ratios, I looked carefully at all of it - and I made the choice to feed Candy's Blended diet. I went directly to Candy to explain there was a problem! Candy was MORTIFIED! She apologized repeatedly to me, and asked me to help her determine what the problem was.

The problems, the symptoms, the gliders and breeders in question, and CANDY all participated in a very public discussion. I'm not sure any resolution was reached, but it was not a secret. From my own point of view - I'm sure further testing could have answered some questions, but I didn't have the money for further testing!

It is also A FACT that there have been MORE (many more) deaths and illnesses associated with feeding one of the false-HPW diets. There have been zero discussions regarding those gliders. There have been zero discussions with the creator of that diet publicly apologizing and trying to find a solution. The people who had those problems were threatened with a lawsuit, and so they never went public.

You - YOU! - the glider owner - have a choice of many diet plans to feed your gliders. You have to weigh the pros and cons, and make the best choice you are able. It is not the diet creator's responsibility. Candy offered only a recipe. She didn't package it up and market it commercially.

IF the diet is being commercially marketed, the diet creator would have some liability. Personally, if I were feeding a diet that is being commercially marketed, and that is causing illness and death, I'd demand some answers and some facts!


Quote:
Rule 3. Please keep posts closely related to the topic. If the topic sparks another thought for discussion, please open a new thread. Post messages in the most appropriate forum. Please refrain from posting the same message in more than one forum. Only one of those messages will remain posted. Do not be offended if moderators move your thread to a forum that fits your topic. In a large forum like ours, this kind of housekeeping is necessary. It is not personal. Please do not use excessive CAPS or bold lettering. It makes your message very hard to read and implies you are shouting.


Please make sure to read our Diet Bashing Sticky in particular the part quoted below.
Quote:
If you think you have a provable reason to say something negative about another diet, then pass it by the administration before posting it. DO NOT make negative claims against a diet unless you can prove it first.

It will be at the discretion of the staff to determine if a post is bashing a diet or not.


Alden, that is a very serious statement you have made. This thread is NOT about any other diets other than Candy's.

Let us be very clear about that.
_________________________
Your Sugar Glider Resource Center
Sugar Glider Help



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#1324019 - 02/01/13 08:57 PM Re: Gliderkid/Candy's Blended Diet Concerns [Re: finnessa]
cathy1229 Offline
Glider Guardian

Registered: 08/26/12
Posts: 928
Loc: Concord, NH
I think this thread has run its course. How many times will the same questions be asked, and answered? I think that if Candy did not have all of the information that she requested then its very difficult to assign a cause and/or blame any one thing.

I like many other new glider parents looked at all the staple diets and chose one that I felt would work for me and my gliders. We all want whats best for them, but to me this has degenerated from a question to out right antaganism. I know we are passionate about our babies, but enough is enough and I am a bit surprised that it has been allowed to go on.
_________________________
Cathy

Wife to a very special man &

Proud Mommy of:
1 aussie/bordercollie/husky/plotthound Wimpy
1 Sun Conure Cisco
3 Amazing fuzzbutts Akiah (my little princess) & her brother Acoose,Princess 'Tudie, and Tochee

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