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#1349924 - 08/05/13 03:13 AM Not-so-helpful Necropsy results
SugaMomma Offline
In Pouch

Registered: 05/15/11
Posts: 24
Loc: Illinois
It's taken me a bit to be able to come to terms with this enough to post it although it needs to be done. So please bear with me as I try to make this as easy to understand as possible. (Currently raising a rejected joey so a complete lack of sleep doesn't exactly "help".

-Three of my gliders were living together Mother, Father, and their young daughter.
-I feed the HPW diet with fresh fruits and vegetables and mealworms on occasion.(A couple to few times a week)I also have kibble available 24/7.

Checked on everyone around noon. All was well. Topped off the other two cages' kibble dishes with the remaining kibble in one package, had to open a new package for the cage with Mother Father and Daughter.
At dinner time, went to put their "wet" food (HPW fruits/veggies) into their cage. Found Mom on bottom of cage with daughter pulling on her seemingly trying to get her up. I thought Mom had passed but upon picking her up found that she was just barely struggling to breathe. Mom passed within minutes.
Checked daughter over, Daughter appeared fine.
Removed Dad from pouch; Dad "seemed" normal at first but knowing him as well as I did, noticed that he was very subtly "off".
Removed Dad from cage. Put him into Iso cage. Ended up losing him early the next morning. He started off just being very subtly "off" as in not himself. But would take pedialyte and was interested in his HPW. Quickly progressed to not taking pedialyte. Then to being limp. He regained "mobility" but seemed very disoriented. Disorientation continued and he then began to have seizures. He stopped having seizures for about an hour and seemed once again interested in pedialyte but still weak. This was followed by one very large seizure that lasted about 1-1.5 minutes after which he was clearly "not there" his eyes were slightly larger than usual and didn't focus on anything (staring off into the distance). No basic reflexes. Abnormal behavior that was "reflex-based" (this was only noticed because I made the kissing sounds he was used to in order to try to tell him I was still there and he was not alone) when "kiss" sounds were made, his mouth would make an involuntary exaggerated chewing motion as if it was matching my kiss sounds.

He has one last seizure before passing.

I unfortunately did not think to have a Necropsy done on my female in my panicked attempt to save my male but I did have one done on him which yielded an "Inconclusive".

They said that the digestive track and brain both showed signs that could be linked to either possible toxicity or possible infection but they said that there were none of the other "tell-tale" signs of infection and that there werent enough of the "typical" signs of toxicity to rule that that was the cause.

MY THOUGHTS: THAT cage alone received kibble from that newly opened container. The Daughter does not eat kibble and is perfectly fine and healthy. The two that ate the kibble- the parents- passed. The one that always scarfs the kibble passed very quickly. The male that eats less but still enjoys it, passed later. All other gliders were fine.

Unfortunately I will never know.

Just wanted to pass this on in case in some way it CAN maybe help in some way.

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#1349937 - 08/05/13 07:43 AM Re: Not-so-helpful Necropsy results [Re: SugaMomma]
Sweet As Suggies Offline
Glider Guardian

Registered: 10/09/12
Posts: 1114
Loc: MI
This is such a sad post, and I'm so sorry you lost your babies frown

Is there any way to find out if others have made complaints like this linking to kibble, or the company you bought your kibble from?
_________________________
Alicia

:cream: :bb: :plat: :wt: :leu: :wfb:

Naaya & Halo, Solari & Casper, Naphtali & Polar, Twilight & Cherish

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#1349961 - 08/05/13 09:35 AM Re: Not-so-helpful Necropsy results [Re: Sweet As Suggies]
KarenE Offline
Owner

Registered: 03/25/00
Posts: 41299
Loc: LittleRock, AR USA
I am so very sorry for your loss and know how heartbroken you are.

After reading what the necropsy results showed about the possibility of some sort of toxin being present as well as your reasoning about the kibble, I would have the kibble tested.

Ask your vet if that is possible. At least that way it might give you an answer as to whether or not there was a toxin present in the kibble.
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#1349965 - 08/05/13 10:07 AM Re: Not-so-helpful Necropsy results [Re: SugaMomma]
yiyo Offline
Serious Glideritis

Registered: 06/08/11
Posts: 7560
Loc: Long Island, NY
hug2 hug2

How terrible frown

I agree, if you can get the kibble tested, then you would know for sure. It won't bring them back, but you may have peace of mind knowing for sure what the cause was.
_________________________
Alyssa

"Moving on is a simple thing, what it leaves behind is hard."

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#1349983 - 08/05/13 01:07 PM Re: Not-so-helpful Necropsy results [Re: SugaMomma]
Bourbon Offline
Serious Glideritis

Registered: 04/01/99
Posts: 5333
Loc: Bee-Bopping round SnakePit USA
aflatoxin poisoning often caused from mold, is a common toxin IF they test for it, they must test for it though to be sure

aflatoxin comes from the aspergillus fungus, often occurring in the hulls, shells and husks of foods, if the levels are too high (zero tolerance in foods for human consumption) then the corn is sold to pet food companies to be used for non human eating animals... cats, dogs, etc..

but again nothing is positive till it is proven, again you can take the kibble down and have it tested for the aflatoxin
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#1349986 - 08/05/13 01:15 PM Re: Not-so-helpful Necropsy results [Re: SugaMomma]
GliderNursery Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 09/14/07
Posts: 20049
Loc: North Central Ohio
hug2 So sorry to hear of such great losses to you. I agree with the others, I'd have the kibble tested.
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#1349995 - 08/05/13 01:57 PM Re: Not-so-helpful Necropsy results [Re: SugaMomma]
Typhoonkitty Offline
Glider Lover

Registered: 04/30/13
Posts: 630
Loc: Albany, New York
hug2 hug2 hug2 I'm so sorry! My prayers to u!
_________________________
"There are no happy endings because nothing ends."

Mom/Slave to three kitties:
Hemitite, Miki, and Shade

And two gliders:
Jasper and Kiki

Over the Rainbow: Buster (12/16/14)

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#1349996 - 08/05/13 01:59 PM Re: Not-so-helpful Necropsy results [Re: SugaMomma]
sugarlope Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 03/28/02
Posts: 19735
Loc: in my happy place
There is a small percentage of 'acceptable' Aflatoxin levels in human quality food as well. Humans have a much, much higher threshold for Aflatoxin toxicity than many other animals, however.

I agree that I would have the kibble tested. How long had you had the previous container of kibble? Depending on how things are stored, both before you buy something as well as after you buy something, mold can grow. Aspergillus is not a 'common' mold and just because mold is present does not mean it is Aspergillus (= Aflatoxins).

Having the kibble tested (if you can find someone to do so) may help you determine if it was the cause. I would give them the whole container, if you still have it, because they will likely test from several areas within the bag/container. Just because there is mold (even Aspergillus) in a container of food, does not mean it is throughout and only giving them a small portion from one area of the container may not find anything. (If that makes any sense).

I am so sorry for your loss. Necropsies do not always give us a definitive answer and I know how frustrating this can be. hug2
_________________________
~Gretchen
Maia & Squish
If we never loved, then maybe we would never feel pain. Love anyway. It's worth it.

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#1350022 - 08/05/13 03:04 PM Re: Not-so-helpful Necropsy results [Re: sugarlope]
Terry Offline
Glider Addict

Registered: 04/29/12
Posts: 4975
Loc: Maryland
I'm so sorry for your loss, I do hope you can get to the bottom of what caused the loss of your loved ones.
_________________________
Lives with:
1 God
1 dog, (Willow)
2 Sugies, (Ollie & Skadoosh)
R.I.P. Lulu (2/28/12-10/13/17)

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#1350030 - 08/05/13 05:00 PM Re: Not-so-helpful Necropsy results [Re: SugaMomma]
SugaMomma Offline
In Pouch

Registered: 05/15/11
Posts: 24
Loc: Illinois
The vet did state that there were no other reports with this kibble that she knows of. That I recall, she didn't have any leads for getting the food tested. But I may not have asked the right questions.

The kibble was always stored in the freezer by me and by the person I buy it from. He also feeds the same kibble to his gliders without ever having an issue. I have fed the same kibble to my gliders for years they have always thrived with it and I've never had a single issue.

Thank you for all of your sympathies.

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#1350040 - 08/05/13 05:31 PM Re: Not-so-helpful Necropsy results [Re: SugaMomma]
Kathryn Offline
Glider Guardian

Registered: 07/18/12
Posts: 1176
Loc: BC, Canada
I am so sorry for your loss hug2
All of my thoughts have already been expressed by the people above me. I really hope that you will be able to test the kibble to find out if it was the cause of death.
If I were you I would cease to feed your gliders the kibble until you have conclusive evidence that it wasn't what hurt your other two. Just my opinion. smile
_________________________

:grey: Eevee & Indie, Fawn & Fawkes :grey:

4 cats- Princess, Batman, Ginger & DumDum
3 dogs- AJ, Tiara and Emma
2 snakes- Charade and Cairo
2 hamsters- Zuko & Zorro



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#1350084 - 08/06/13 08:10 AM Re: Not-so-helpful Necropsy results [Re: SugaMomma]
Jackie_Chans_Mom Offline
Glider Addict

Registered: 05/01/07
Posts: 2511
Loc: Texas
Did you also have histopathological testing?

Typically, when more than one glider dies in the same cage in the same day, there is an environmental factor. They could have also eaten a bug that came into contact with pesticides and then made its way to your house. There are many possibilities. Did the necropsy report comment on the contents of the stomach?

In any case, your report along with a completed necropsy study would be helpful to the SUGAR Groups necropsy studies. We would greatly appreciate it if you would submit them for our study.

I'm very sorry for your loss.
_________________________
~~ Val B ~~ 806-803-0318
Daily giving the abused, unloved, unwanted and neglected SOMETHING TO BELIEVE IN

PLEASE COMPLETE YOUR SUGAR GROUP SURVEYS!!!!!!!!!!!!

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#1350140 - 08/06/13 06:53 PM Re: Not-so-helpful Necropsy results [Re: SugaMomma]
SugaMomma Offline
In Pouch

Registered: 05/15/11
Posts: 24
Loc: Illinois
All I know is what I wad told over the phone by the vet and that they were supposed to send in tissue samples for further testing. The vet said time and time again that the results were Inconclusive.

I am well aware that this is far from helpful but I posted here anyhow just in case it can somehow help someone. This was hard enough to post.

I don't know who or what SugarGroup is since I am not one to participate in these forums. I simply hoped that maybe by sharing it could help. I don't know how...but the hope was there.


Edited by SugaMomma (08/06/13 07:14 PM)

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