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#1383970 - 12/08/14 05:46 PM Bladder Stones
GliderLuvr Offline
Out of Pouch

Registered: 08/24/11
Posts: 64
Loc: Tennessee
Please help! One of my babies has been battling crystals (struvite) in his urine for the past week (3 vet trips to massage the bladder to enable urination). We have dosed him with antibiotics 2x/day (for bladder infection) + pain med + syringe feeding him water at least 2x per day. He did great over the weekend, but, it was back to the vet this AM...now with a "stone". He has had energy and been looking good between episodes of trying to pass these stones and crystals..but we keep having to go back to the vet for manual massage and xrays. We have paid $1,000+ in vet bills to save him and the vet has gently told us he is not sure about his future, suggesting we should put him down. Does anyone have experience with this in gliders? Can they recover? Our little one is only about 4 yrs old. I feed Judies Modified BML. We just went through a move, and their diet was thrown off, but the vet doesn't seem to think it is a diet issue based on my descriptions. We are not sure about the cause, but I keep worrying about diet. He had BML, peas and carrots, green beans, some corn kernels, honeydew, and cherries lat night...4 meal worms yesterday afternoon...I fed some cran-raspberry juice at lunch to hydrate, and he drinks it withough me force syring feeding it...plus, I thought it might help with bladder infection and maybe lower the pH of his urine. Have fed some frozen pineapple (again to acidification urine), mango, berry mix the past few nights. He does have a female cage mate who is doing fine.

Any help is greatly appreciated. I don't want to have to put our little one down! Kris


Edited by GliderNursery (12/08/14 07:07 PM)
Edit Reason: removed dosage
_________________________
heart :rtmo: heart :rtmo: heart
With her sweet temperament, gregarious personality, captivating beauty, and indomitable spirit, Nara Kiah will always hold that special place next to my heart. Her body gave out, but her spirit never did. I miss you so much, Baby Girl. Heaven has a new angel.

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#1383974 - 12/08/14 07:03 PM Re: Bladder Stones [Re: GliderLuvr]
GliderNursery Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 09/14/07
Posts: 20049
Loc: North Central Ohio
I've not had any experience with this. Going to move it to Health & Hygiene and hopefully someone will come along.
_________________________
Shelly

Don't sacrifice quality information for convenient information.


Glider Nursery

Sugar Glider Foundation



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#1383978 - 12/08/14 07:20 PM Re: Bladder Stones [Re: GliderLuvr]
CandyOtte Offline
Serious Glideritis

Registered: 09/03/08
Posts: 5138
Loc: Lutz Florida
You may want to switch to a diet with LESS Calcium. BML and Judie's BML have very large doses of calcium in the staple recipe and require the high phosphorus mixed vegetables to balance that dosage of calcium. If you are not feeding much of the corn the vegetables may not be providing enough Phosphorus to provide the necessary balance.

The other option is to reduce the calcium from 2 teaspoons to ONE and see if that helps.

You might also try switching to another staple all together that provides a balanced diet but with out excess calcium.

Gliders on BML that were fed high calcium vegetables instead of the mixed vegetables in the past have had similar problems.
_________________________
Candy Otte
& the Glider Kids
Sassy, Corky, Mehitabel & Missy
Wacco, Yacco, & Dot
Mindy, Kanobles, Elmo, & Chipper

http://www.gliderkids-diet.com

CandyOtte@aol.com

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#1383992 - 12/09/14 11:08 AM Re: Bladder Stones [Re: GliderLuvr]
Feather Offline
Administrator

Registered: 01/19/08
Posts: 11940
Loc: Wisconsin
I agree with Candy, BML and Judy's BML have high amounts of calcium in the staple portion of the diet.

You may want to consider changing diets. If you click on the word diet it will take you to the Sugar Glider Help database on diets.
_________________________
Kimberley
Feathers-Sweetie, Sklyar Blue, Mister Peanut, Big Mack & Ibo
Fur-Widget, Guinan, Mr. Spock, T'Mir, Micheal, Stevie, Cho & :bb: T'Pol, Elizabeth & Curzon :wfb: TY, TJ & T'Pring :rtmo: O'Ryan :leu:
Forever in my heart, Gizmo, Tucker and the rest of my babies over the :rbridge:


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#1383998 - 12/09/14 12:12 PM Re: Bladder Stones [Re: GliderLuvr]
GliderLuvr Offline
Out of Pouch

Registered: 08/24/11
Posts: 64
Loc: Tennessee
Thanks so much for your replies!

Here is an update:

As a short-term experiment last night, we refrained from feeding the BML and only offered the peas, carrots, green beans, blackberries, and lots of watermelon and cantaloupe (for more fluids). We also provided more corn and meal worms to hopefully cancel out some of the calcium excess with more of the phosphorus (again, short-term). What do you think? Would anyone happen to have an idea how long it might take to flush the excess calcium from his system? The vet has advised to push fluids.

I also took away their preferred pouch and exchanged it for one they like less, which encouraged them to be more active last night. Our sick boy isn't much of a wheel runner, and the vet recommended exercise.

The vet really seems to think the crystals and stones are more a result of the bladder infection, rather than the cause, so we are aggressively trying to fight the infection…now using 2 antibiotics.

Thankfully, the vet was able to manually massage the stone out of him yesterday versus surgery. Please say prayers we don't have a relapse tomorrow…that has been the pattern for a week now…good day, bad day, etc.

Thank you so much for your support and insight. I will research other diets to hopefully achieve better balance…just trying to prevent more stones and crystals from forming now, with what I have on hand. It's so hard to make sure they eat in a balanced way… Our little girl, for example, will eat only peas and corn if I don't limit these from time to time, forcing her to eat the BML and other components. She's the one I would have expected to have a problem, but it's our little boy, who is less picky and a more versatile eater, is having issues…go figure. We have had them for 4 years without an emergency, so this is so puzzling, especially since we have used the same diet for that length of time *sigh*.

Many thanks again for your help,
Kris
_________________________
heart :rtmo: heart :rtmo: heart
With her sweet temperament, gregarious personality, captivating beauty, and indomitable spirit, Nara Kiah will always hold that special place next to my heart. Her body gave out, but her spirit never did. I miss you so much, Baby Girl. Heaven has a new angel.

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#1384001 - 12/09/14 03:04 PM Re: Bladder Stones [Re: GliderLuvr]
Feather Offline
Administrator

Registered: 01/19/08
Posts: 11940
Loc: Wisconsin
You do need to offer a protein, you can give chicken or scrambled egg.

Try offering him some cranberry juice.
_________________________
Kimberley
Feathers-Sweetie, Sklyar Blue, Mister Peanut, Big Mack & Ibo
Fur-Widget, Guinan, Mr. Spock, T'Mir, Micheal, Stevie, Cho & :bb: T'Pol, Elizabeth & Curzon :wfb: TY, TJ & T'Pring :rtmo: O'Ryan :leu:
Forever in my heart, Gizmo, Tucker and the rest of my babies over the :rbridge:


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#1384005 - 12/09/14 05:06 PM Re: Bladder Stones [Re: GliderLuvr]
GliderNursery Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 09/14/07
Posts: 20049
Loc: North Central Ohio
If the stones were a result of the infection, then changing diets isn't going to matter. If your glider does well on BML, then there is no reason to switch it. We (as in the glider community) are so quick to blame everything on diet when it isn't always the issue. Before you switch diets, speak with your vet first. If the stones were in fact a result of the infection, changing diets isn't going to do anything for your glider.
_________________________
Shelly

Don't sacrifice quality information for convenient information.


Glider Nursery

Sugar Glider Foundation



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#1384026 - 12/09/14 06:04 PM Re: Bladder Stones [Re: GliderLuvr]
GliderLuvr Offline
Out of Pouch

Registered: 08/24/11
Posts: 64
Loc: Tennessee
The vet seems to think that cutting back some of the calcium in his diet might help limit stone and crystal formation. It's frustrating not being able to pinpoint a definite cause. Are bladder infections common in gliders?

On a side note, I read that, in ferrets, one type of stone is treatable by increasing animal protein in the diet, which makes their urine more acid to help dissolve crystals and stones. Ferrets, according to our vet, have a good prognosis. I realize gliders are very different from ferrets, but it is worth a shot.

I'm doing everything I can to prevent another stone or more crystals, equaling another emergency vet trip, because we will be encouraged to put him down.
_________________________
heart :rtmo: heart :rtmo: heart
With her sweet temperament, gregarious personality, captivating beauty, and indomitable spirit, Nara Kiah will always hold that special place next to my heart. Her body gave out, but her spirit never did. I miss you so much, Baby Girl. Heaven has a new angel.

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#1384027 - 12/09/14 06:07 PM Re: Bladder Stones [Re: GliderLuvr]
GliderLuvr Offline
Out of Pouch

Registered: 08/24/11
Posts: 64
Loc: Tennessee
I meant to specify that the vet thinks excess calcium in the diet might be contributing to the stone and crystals forming from the bladder infection.
_________________________
heart :rtmo: heart :rtmo: heart
With her sweet temperament, gregarious personality, captivating beauty, and indomitable spirit, Nara Kiah will always hold that special place next to my heart. Her body gave out, but her spirit never did. I miss you so much, Baby Girl. Heaven has a new angel.

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#1384032 - 12/09/14 07:25 PM Re: Bladder Stones [Re: CandyOtte]
GliderNursery Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 09/14/07
Posts: 20049
Loc: North Central Ohio
Originally Posted By: CandyOtte
Gliders on BML that were fed high calcium vegetables instead of the mixed vegetables in the past have had similar problems.


Based on this statement, that would be the blame of the owners not following the diet properly rather than the diet plan itself. This is a perfect example of why diet plans should be followed as written with no modifications.

GliderLuvr, speak with your vet again, I've been feeding BML since 2008 and have never had an issue. By your description, I honestly don't think diet is the issue. But you need to follow the recommendations of your vet. wink
_________________________
Shelly

Don't sacrifice quality information for convenient information.


Glider Nursery

Sugar Glider Foundation



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#1384033 - 12/09/14 08:17 PM Re: Bladder Stones [Re: GliderLuvr]
GliderLuvr Offline
Out of Pouch

Registered: 08/24/11
Posts: 64
Loc: Tennessee
I use Judies Modified BML...Is that the same as what you have fed, Shelly? I have also never had luck finding the baby yogurt juice listed as an ingredient for this diet (maybe not sold in our area?). Someone told me the Gerber Yogurt Blends (strawberry, peach, or blueberry flavor) is the "same thing", but I have been concerned about that. What is your opinion? Maybe adding more calcium to throw the ratios off if not the "yogurt juice"?
_________________________
heart :rtmo: heart :rtmo: heart
With her sweet temperament, gregarious personality, captivating beauty, and indomitable spirit, Nara Kiah will always hold that special place next to my heart. Her body gave out, but her spirit never did. I miss you so much, Baby Girl. Heaven has a new angel.

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#1384035 - 12/09/14 09:12 PM Re: Bladder Stones [Re: GliderLuvr]
CandyOtte Offline
Serious Glideritis

Registered: 09/03/08
Posts: 5138
Loc: Lutz Florida
Quote:
Someone told me the Gerber Yogurt Blends (strawberry, peach, or blueberry flavor) is the "same thing"


The Gerber Yogurt Blends are NOT the same as the Yogurt Juice. These contain twice as much yogurt and no juice.

If you have been using these in place of the yogurt juice you probably are adding additional calcium to an already high calcium staple. At the same time you are leaving out the juice which is part of the liquids called for in the recipe. The reduction of the liquids in the recipe would also concentrate the amounts of all nutrients - including the calcium in the resulting mixture.

If you cannot get the Gerber yogurt juice - you can substitute 2 ounce of plain yogurt plus 2 ounce of one of the baby mixed fruit juices for the 4 ounce bottle of the yogurt juice. This is the substitution Bourbon includes in the recipe.

If you are not able to get the yogurt juice, use the above substitution unless you do decide to use a different feeding plan all together.

Which ever feeding plan you choose, follow the directions exactly. All of the other recognized feeding plans will provide calcium in a more moderate amount than either BML recipe provides.
_________________________
Candy Otte
& the Glider Kids
Sassy, Corky, Mehitabel & Missy
Wacco, Yacco, & Dot
Mindy, Kanobles, Elmo, & Chipper

http://www.gliderkids-diet.com

CandyOtte@aol.com

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#1384083 - 12/10/14 07:44 PM Re: Bladder Stones [Re: GliderLuvr]
GliderNursery Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 09/14/07
Posts: 20049
Loc: North Central Ohio
Candy answered very well. But to your one question, I use Bourbon's version as she is the diet creator. I don't use any variation. So no, our diets are slightly different. However, if feeding the BML diet according to the instructions, and you are feeding the veggies that are required, the diet should be fine. Again, I'm referring to the BML not Judie's version.

Here is the link that I feed. Maybe speak with your vet about this one. The idea is that the high phosphorus veggies balance out the higher level of calcium in the mixture. http://www.angelfire.com/nb/sugargliders/bml/leadbeat.html
_________________________
Shelly

Don't sacrifice quality information for convenient information.


Glider Nursery

Sugar Glider Foundation



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#1384094 - 12/11/14 06:59 AM Re: Bladder Stones [Re: GliderNursery]
Srlb Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 10/30/03
Posts: 16733
Loc: St. Johns, Florida
This glider has an INFECTION... infections are not caused by diets. I personally would not change her diet if she has been eating it fine all this time.

I would give her a round of the meds her vet put her on and take her back in for a recheck.

That would be like you getting a bladder infection and changing your whole diet.

I do have to say though, whatever diet you do decide to feed, feed it as directed. There are reasons those of us who develop diets tell you what and how to feed it. I have never really understood the reason for modifications.

Best of luck with your little one.
_________________________
Peggy
Critter Love
Critter Love® Diet Center

If you want to know what a person is like, watch how he treats others.

You'll never know what the outcome is if you don't step up and try.


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#1384096 - 12/11/14 08:19 AM Re: Bladder Stones [Re: GliderLuvr]
GliderLuvr Offline
Out of Pouch

Registered: 08/24/11
Posts: 64
Loc: Tennessee
We have had 2 good days and today is looking good too! Thanks to all who have contributed their thoughts on the issue.

It could be that the new antibiotic is working it's magic, but I think cutting back on the BML and boosting protein (meal worms) and fluids (including lots of watery food like watermelon, cantaloupe, and honeydew) has helped. The true test will be when he can go a week without a relapse. At that point my plan is to get them back on a strict diet plan...either back to BML with the right yogurt-juice blend or I may try Priscilla (spelling?) Price's diet. It may be time for a diet switch anyway since they mainly go after the peas and corn of the BML. I actually wonder if what happened is my little girl always emerges from the pouch first. She is also the dominant glider. I think she hordes the corn, peas, and meal worms, leaving our boy wit a lot of the BML mix, some green beans, and carrots (which they don't like) and some fruit. Think this could be causing a calcium excess and protein and phosphorus deficiency?
For 3 days now, our little one seems stable, so I will try to keep him that way into next week, which is when I need to make a diet decision.
I am still curious though if urinary infections are common with gliders. Is it likely he will get this again? I clean my cage daily and occasionally skip a day using water and lemon juice. Twice a week, I spray and scrub down well with water. No issues for 4 years, so I am thinking and hoping this is a fluke. My cage cleaning routine got throwN off with our move (a month before dousing with water) but still wiping down every or every other day with water and lemon juice. The infection/crystal and stone issue set in after I got them back on track with fresh BML batch and after dousing the cage with water.
_________________________
heart :rtmo: heart :rtmo: heart
With her sweet temperament, gregarious personality, captivating beauty, and indomitable spirit, Nara Kiah will always hold that special place next to my heart. Her body gave out, but her spirit never did. I miss you so much, Baby Girl. Heaven has a new angel.

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#1384098 - 12/11/14 08:52 AM Re: Bladder Stones [Re: GliderLuvr]
GliderNursery Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 09/14/07
Posts: 20049
Loc: North Central Ohio
Did your vet actually diagnose a phosphorus and protein deficiency? Gliders actually don't need a lot of protein; I think its something like 7% on a dry matter basis. A high protein diet is a myth for gliders.

UTI's can occur in gliders but I wouldn't say that they are 'common', but definitely not unheard of. If there was a lot of bacteria on the cage that could have caused the UTI, but getting them back on schedule with their normal diet isn't going to cause a UTI. I would say that by the sounds of things, this was more of a fluke. I'm not even sure that the cage would have been the cause unless you went a very long time without cleaning it, which doesn't sound like the case.

Very happy to hear that he's had 2 good days! dance
_________________________
Shelly

Don't sacrifice quality information for convenient information.


Glider Nursery

Sugar Glider Foundation



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#1384099 - 12/11/14 08:58 AM Re: Bladder Stones [Re: GliderLuvr]
GliderNursery Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 09/14/07
Posts: 20049
Loc: North Central Ohio
You mentioned that you are thinking of switching to TPG diet, and that you have a dominate glider that comes out to eat first. With that being the case, I do not recommend TPG diet as it calls for sprinkling the vitamins/minerals on the food. Doing so, your first glider would get more than their share while the other gliders wouldn't get enough/any. Honestly, because of this, I don't really recommend this diet (or any diet that calls for sprinkling). If you check the diet section, there are a few posts of people having issues with their gliders using this diet.
_________________________
Shelly

Don't sacrifice quality information for convenient information.


Glider Nursery

Sugar Glider Foundation



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#1384122 - 12/11/14 12:36 PM Re: Bladder Stones [Re: GliderLuvr]
Kris_N_Zoe Offline
Glider Slave

Registered: 08/25/14
Posts: 1816
Loc: Longview, Texas
It' great that your glider is doing better. To prevent a relapse, I recommend wiping down the care frequently as this will greatly reduce the amount of bacteria in the cage. Gliders rub their cloaca on just about everything, so they pick up a lot of germs with their private parts and that's how they get UTI's.
A 1:1 bleach and water solution should do nicely to clean with. wink
_________________________
Pibble pup Jenson jump Glide free: Smoke (6/16/15) and Zoey (10/2/15) :rbridge:

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#1384127 - 12/11/14 02:03 PM Re: Bladder Stones [Re: GliderNursery]
Srlb Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 10/30/03
Posts: 16733
Loc: St. Johns, Florida
Originally Posted By: GliderNursery
You mentioned that you are thinking of switching to TPG diet, and that you have a dominate glider that comes out to eat first. With that being the case, I do not recommend TPG diet as it calls for sprinkling the vitamins/minerals on the food. Doing so, your first glider would get more than their share while the other gliders wouldn't get enough/any. Honestly, because of this, I don't really recommend this diet (or any diet that calls for sprinkling). If you check the diet section, there are a few posts of people having issues with their gliders using this diet.


:agreed: I was just going to say the exact same thing that Shelly just stated.

If you choose not to go with the BML, you can also try one of the true Critter Love HPW™ diets.
Contact me at critterlove@critterlove.com if you would like more information on obtaining a free sample.
_________________________
Peggy
Critter Love
Critter Love® Diet Center

If you want to know what a person is like, watch how he treats others.

You'll never know what the outcome is if you don't step up and try.


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#1384132 - 12/11/14 04:54 PM Re: Bladder Stones [Re: Kris_N_Zoe]
awitt Offline
In Pouch

Registered: 12/03/14
Posts: 26
Loc: OK
Originally Posted By: Kris_N_Zoe
1:1 bleach and water solution should do nicely to clean with. wink


Couldn't bleach harm a glider if it's not rinsed super well? I wouldn't take the risk, I'd clean it with vinegar/lemon solution and it it needs a good scrubbing, try using baking soda/lemon mixture.
_________________________
Momma of Tink, :grey: Rocky, :grey: Arwen, :grey: and Aragorn :grey: !!!


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#1384133 - 12/11/14 04:55 PM Re: Bladder Stones [Re: GliderLuvr]
awitt Offline
In Pouch

Registered: 12/03/14
Posts: 26
Loc: OK
Either, followed with a good rinse!
_________________________
Momma of Tink, :grey: Rocky, :grey: Arwen, :grey: and Aragorn :grey: !!!


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#1384147 - 12/11/14 08:17 PM Re: Bladder Stones [Re: Kris_N_Zoe]
GliderNursery Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 09/14/07
Posts: 20049
Loc: North Central Ohio
Originally Posted By: Kris_N_Zoe
A 1:1 bleach and water solution should do nicely to clean with. wink


I would only recommend a 10% bleach solution. 1:1 is pretty strong.
_________________________
Shelly

Don't sacrifice quality information for convenient information.


Glider Nursery

Sugar Glider Foundation



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#1384155 - 12/11/14 08:40 PM Re: Bladder Stones [Re: GliderNursery]
6ftGlider Offline
Joey Member

Registered: 02/21/14
Posts: 132
Loc: BFE, Texas
I agree with what has been said about the TPG diet. It works great for some folks apparently, but not for all. I recently lost a glider, and although we can't pin point the exact cause so far, the fact that he didn't get any of the vitamin/calcium stuff surely didn't help. The necropsy said "Malnutrition; hypocalcemia (low calcium); hypoglycemia (low blood sugar)". I'm pretty sure the vitamin was gone by the time he got to it each night. I wouldn't suggest that diet to anyone with an aggressive eater, a piggy eater, or joeys. I know many folks have used it for a long time without issue, but like I said it doesn't work for everyone.
_________________________
Ogre
OgresFuzzleButts

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#1384156 - 12/11/14 08:44 PM Re: Bladder Stones [Re: GliderNursery]
awitt Offline
In Pouch

Registered: 12/03/14
Posts: 26
Loc: OK
Originally Posted By: GliderNursery
Originally Posted By: Kris_N_Zoe
A 1:1 bleach and water solution should do nicely to clean with. wink


I would only recommend a 10% bleach solution. 1:1 is pretty strong.


I completely agree! If you have to use bleach PLEASE DILUTE IT DOWN VERY WELL! smile
_________________________
Momma of Tink, :grey: Rocky, :grey: Arwen, :grey: and Aragorn :grey: !!!


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