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#1394724 - 10/04/15 04:58 PM JOEY REJECTION????
SuggieGirl16 Offline
Joey Member

Registered: 07/23/12
Posts: 146
Loc: Wisconsin, USA
This morning the joey - named Liam - officially came out of pouch. To me everything seemed like it was going fine. He was crawling on mom's back and she seemed to be aware of him there, though not paying too much attention. So I gave mom a treat and then left things alone for a couple of hours. When I went back to check I noticed that baby was in the bonding pouch on the side of the cage and mom and dad were asleep under a blanket at the bottom of the cage. I watched closely for about 20 minutes to see what would happen. When joey cried neither of them came. Eventually I had to take joey and put him with mom. As soon as I brought him to her he grabbed on and put his head in her pouch. I thought maybe it was a one time thing so I left things alone again for another hour. When I came back this time joey was on the floor of the cage and mom and dad were in the bonding pouch. Dad shows absolutely no interest. Mom hisses quite a bit when baby is nursing but doesn't really seem to yank him away. But this is twice now that he has ended up away from both mom and dad and crying until I put him back with mom. Is this rejection!? If so, do I need to pull him or do I supplement? I have Esbilac, Pedialyte, and some 1 cc syringes. Any advise here would be greatly appreciated!


Edited by SuggieGirl16 (10/04/15 05:08 PM)
_________________________
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Julia

Mommy to

:grey: Lucy :wfb: Luka

:grey: Liam mlove

:rbridge: Casper and Leroy ~ Glide free babies!

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#1394727 - 10/04/15 05:51 PM Re: JOEY REJECTION???? [Re: SuggieGirl16]
Feather Offline
Administrator

Registered: 01/19/08
Posts: 12068
Loc: Wisconsin
Is this their first joey?

As long as they are not biting the joey it isn't rejection. If they are new parents they may not be learning fast.

First make sure they only have one place to sleep and that is with the joey in the pouch. Remove any other pouches and remove the fleece from the bottom of the cage.

There is a way to tell if the joey is getting enough milk, you can see it in his tummy.

I suggest you go to this site and do some reading: http://www.suzsugargliders.com/
_________________________
Kimberley
Feathers-Sweetie, Sklyar Blue, Mister Peanut, Big Mack & Ibo
Fur-Guinan, Mr. Spock, T'Mir, Micheal, Stevie, Cho & Maharet :bb: T'Pol, Elizabeth & Curzon :wfb: TY, TJ, Khayman & T'Pring :rtmo: O'Ryan :leu:
Forever in my heart, Gizmo, Tucker and the rest of my babies over the :rbridge:


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#1394731 - 10/04/15 06:24 PM Re: JOEY REJECTION???? [Re: Feather]
SuggieGirl16 Offline
Joey Member

Registered: 07/23/12
Posts: 146
Loc: Wisconsin, USA
Yes it is their first joey. Mom also has another baby in the pouch that is about 3 or 4 weeks younger (correction: I believe he is the same age).

As far as I can see neither mom nor dad is biting the joey (no marks). I removed the fleece blanket at the bottom of the cage since the first time they left him. It has happened a few more times since. She is leaving him at the bottom of the cage and won't go back to get him until I bring him to her. I'm hoping either mom or dad will catch on that he needs to be with them.

I have fortunately read all of Sue's articles on the topic and they have been so helpful! I just wasn't sure if I needed to see all of the signs for it to be considered rejection, or only a few.

I am going to keep a close eye tonight. If I see signs of dehydration I think I will start to supplement at the very least.


Edited by SuggieGirl16 (10/05/15 12:17 PM)
_________________________
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Julia

Mommy to

:grey: Lucy :wfb: Luka

:grey: Liam mlove

:rbridge: Casper and Leroy ~ Glide free babies!

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#1394733 - 10/04/15 06:53 PM Re: JOEY REJECTION???? [Re: SuggieGirl16]
Feather Offline
Administrator

Registered: 01/19/08
Posts: 12068
Loc: Wisconsin
:thumb2:
_________________________
Kimberley
Feathers-Sweetie, Sklyar Blue, Mister Peanut, Big Mack & Ibo
Fur-Guinan, Mr. Spock, T'Mir, Micheal, Stevie, Cho & Maharet :bb: T'Pol, Elizabeth & Curzon :wfb: TY, TJ, Khayman & T'Pring :rtmo: O'Ryan :leu:
Forever in my heart, Gizmo, Tucker and the rest of my babies over the :rbridge:


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#1394736 - 10/05/15 06:42 AM Re: JOEY REJECTION???? [Re: SuggieGirl16]
SuggieGirl16 Offline
Joey Member

Registered: 07/23/12
Posts: 146
Loc: Wisconsin, USA
UPDATE: The other joey came out of pouch early last night and actually looks to be about the same age as the first boy (he must have been hiding far back in there!). Mom seems to be taking great care of the other joey, but ignoring the first boy joey. He is constantly crying and never really near mom's pouch only hanging on her back or next to her (that is if she doesn't drop him on the bottom of the cage). His tummy doesn't seem full at all. I've done the tent test and it does indicate that he is dehydrated (skin stayed up for more than 30 seconds), however, I'm not sure how accurate that is on a newly oop joey. I am now trying to supplement with the mixture of Esbilac (puppy formula), Pedialyte, and water but I'm just not sure if he is getting any. How do I get him to lap/drink the formula?


Edited by SuggieGirl16 (10/05/15 07:07 AM)
_________________________
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Julia

Mommy to

:grey: Lucy :wfb: Luka

:grey: Liam mlove

:rbridge: Casper and Leroy ~ Glide free babies!

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#1394737 - 10/05/15 06:42 AM Re: JOEY REJECTION???? [Re: Feather]
SuggieGirl16 Offline
Joey Member

Registered: 07/23/12
Posts: 146
Loc: Wisconsin, USA
UPDATE: The other joey came out of pouch early last night and actually looks to be about the same age as the first boy (he must have been hiding far back in there!). Mom seems to be taking great care of the other joey, but ignoring the first boy joey. He is constantly crying and never really near mom's pouch only hanging on her back or next to her (that is if she doesn't drop him on the bottom of the cage). His tummy doesn't seem full at all. I've done the tent test and it does indicate that he is dehydrated (skin stayed up for more than 30 seconds), however, I'm not sure how accurate that is on a newly oop joey. I am now trying to supplement with the mixture of Esbilac (puppy formula), Pedialyte, and water but I'm just not sure if he is getting any. How do I get him to lap/drink the formula?


Edited by SuggieGirl16 (10/05/15 07:07 AM)
_________________________
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Julia

Mommy to

:grey: Lucy :wfb: Luka

:grey: Liam mlove

:rbridge: Casper and Leroy ~ Glide free babies!

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#1394742 - 10/05/15 11:45 AM Re: JOEY REJECTION???? [Re: SuggieGirl16]
Sherri Offline
Glider Addict

Registered: 11/02/06
Posts: 3826
Loc: Big Sandy TN
Sadly it does sound like rejection. Mom knows that there is something either wrong with it and probably will not care for it at all. I'm really sorry that your having to go through this, I know how hard it is when we just want the parents to be able to take care of them and they don't want to.

I recently went through this a few weeks back with one of my pairs and their first time joey's. Unfortunately I had to go to work and was hoping that if the one joey made it when I got home from work that I would more than likely have to pull it. Sadly, both joey's were cannibalized by time I got home.

I'll be praying for the best with your babies and keep you in my thoughts and prayers.
_________________________
sherri

Forever home to a wide variety of animals, domestic, farm and exotic.
My passion is my little suggie sweethearts! 731-441-9814


http://www.newbysglidernook.com/index.html

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#1394744 - 10/05/15 12:07 PM Re: JOEY REJECTION???? [Re: Sherri]
KarenE Offline
Owner

Registered: 03/25/00
Posts: 41295
Loc: LittleRock, AR USA
Originally Posted By: Feather
I suggest you go to this site and do some reading: http://www.suzsugargliders.com/


I think it is time for you to follow all of Suz's instructions for a rejected joey.

We will be sending prayers your way for this little one.
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#1394745 - 10/05/15 12:10 PM Re: JOEY REJECTION???? [Re: Sherri]
SuggieGirl16 Offline
Joey Member

Registered: 07/23/12
Posts: 146
Loc: Wisconsin, USA
Oh I'm so sorry for your loss!

Both mom and dad seem to be taking fantastic care of the second boy but want nothing to do with the first. I was forced to pull him this morning after I, once again, found him cold and dehydrated on the bottom of the cage. I was hoping to just have to supplement and at least let them care for him, but they won't even keep him warm. I really feel like there is no other option but to pull him completely and hand raise.

So far he is doing okay. Not really having any difficulty lapping up the Pedialyte and formula. But I feel very unsure of everything as this is my first time doing this.

Quick question: When attempting to get him to urinate after a feeding - will I know for sure if he has done it? Of course I will know if he has defecated, but I have heard that the urine is clear. How long should I be doing the q-tip thing after each feeding?

Thank you - and again so sorry to hear about your joeys!
_________________________
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Julia

Mommy to

:grey: Lucy :wfb: Luka

:grey: Liam mlove

:rbridge: Casper and Leroy ~ Glide free babies!

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#1394746 - 10/05/15 12:15 PM Re: JOEY REJECTION???? [Re: KarenE]
SuggieGirl16 Offline
Joey Member

Registered: 07/23/12
Posts: 146
Loc: Wisconsin, USA
Yes I am thinking so too. Thankfully I have read all of Sue's articles on rejection and hand-raising while the joeys were still in pouch, so I feel a little better having that information under my belt. I am still just so nervous about all of this though. I was forced to pull him this morning after I, once again, found him cold and dehydrated on the bottom of the cage. Mom and dad seem to be taking great care of the second boy but want nothing to do with the first. I was hoping to just have to supplement and at least let them care for him, but they won't even keep him warm. I really feel like there is no other option but to pull him completely and hand-raise.

So far I think he is doing okay. He seems to be lapping up the Pedialyte and formula just fine. But I do have a question: When I am attempting to get him to urinate after a feeding how will I know if he has done it? Of course I will know if he has defecated, but I have heard that the urine is clear. How long should I be doing the q-tip trick after each feeding?

Thank you for your help!
_________________________
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Julia

Mommy to

:grey: Lucy :wfb: Luka

:grey: Liam mlove

:rbridge: Casper and Leroy ~ Glide free babies!

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#1394751 - 10/05/15 02:35 PM Re: JOEY REJECTION???? [Re: SuggieGirl16]
KarenE Offline
Owner

Registered: 03/25/00
Posts: 41295
Loc: LittleRock, AR USA
Originally Posted By: SuggieGirl16
So far I think he is doing okay. He seems to be lapping up the Pedialyte and formula just fine. But I do have a question: When I am attempting to get him to urinate after a feeding how will I know if he has done it? Of course I will know if he has defecated, but I have heard that the urine is clear. How long should I be doing the q-tip trick after each feeding?


When you stimulate with the warm cotton ball, q-tip or whatever you are using, after a couple of passes move it away and you should see a urine stream. Be sure to hold your hand under his/her little bottom so you can also feel/see the urine in your hand.
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#1394753 - 10/05/15 03:11 PM Re: JOEY REJECTION???? [Re: KarenE]
SuggieGirl16 Offline
Joey Member

Registered: 07/23/12
Posts: 146
Loc: Wisconsin, USA
Okay! Thank you very much!
_________________________
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Julia

Mommy to

:grey: Lucy :wfb: Luka

:grey: Liam mlove

:rbridge: Casper and Leroy ~ Glide free babies!

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#1394754 - 10/05/15 04:23 PM Re: JOEY REJECTION???? [Re: SuggieGirl16]
KarenE Offline
Owner

Registered: 03/25/00
Posts: 41295
Loc: LittleRock, AR USA
:urwelcome:
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#1394764 - 10/06/15 08:43 AM Re: JOEY REJECTION???? [Re: SuggieGirl16]
SuggieGirl16 Offline
Joey Member

Registered: 07/23/12
Posts: 146
Loc: Wisconsin, USA
Very sad news. Last night while I was hand-raising the joey he was making some squeaking noises. From her cage, Lucy (the mom) seemed very attentive. She started barking and singing for the baby. I thought this was a good sign. So I took baby and tried to reintroduce him to mom. Everything seemed to go great. Mom took joey and started to clean him. And even let him nurse in her pouch. I watched for a couple of hours. And both mom and dad let him stay with them in their pouch. I checked joey in another hour and he was warm and full. I felt like they had re-accepted him. So I left him with mom and dad and fell asleep for about an hour. When I woke up I found the remains of the poor joey in the pouch with mom and dad frown

I am just kicking myself that I didn't stick with the original plan to completely hand-raise! But after she seemed to want to take care of him (getting visibly more anxious that I had him from the cage) I so thought that this meant she had gained her motherly instinct towards him back. Just so sad for my sweet baby! frown
_________________________
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Julia

Mommy to

:grey: Lucy :wfb: Luka

:grey: Liam mlove

:rbridge: Casper and Leroy ~ Glide free babies!

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#1394765 - 10/06/15 09:11 AM Re: JOEY REJECTION???? [Re: SuggieGirl16]
SuggieGirl16 Offline
Joey Member

Registered: 07/23/12
Posts: 146
Loc: Wisconsin, USA
IS THE OTHER JOEY AT RISK?

Now that they have so sadly cannibalized the first joey, is the other joey at risk? They don't show signs of rejection yet, but I would be beyond devastated if they hurt the other baby. Now I am so worried that they might try to harm the other one!



Edited by SuggieGirl16 (10/06/15 09:11 AM)
_________________________
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Julia

Mommy to

:grey: Lucy :wfb: Luka

:grey: Liam mlove

:rbridge: Casper and Leroy ~ Glide free babies!

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#1394766 - 10/06/15 10:02 AM Re: JOEY REJECTION???? [Re: SuggieGirl16]
KarenE Offline
Owner

Registered: 03/25/00
Posts: 41295
Loc: LittleRock, AR USA
There is no way to be 100% sure, and I know that is the answer you are looking for at this point.

In the other joey's favor, they have cared for it this entire time while the other was rejected. Apparently there was something wrong with the rejected little one that you could not see. Possibly the joey was not taking the milk properly ... we could speculate forever and still not figure it out.

My suggestion would be to just stay as calm as you possibly can so you don't stress the parents at this point. Watch them as they interact with this remaining joey but give them space to be parents wink I wouldn't handle the joey at all or interfere unless you see definite signs of another rejection. But you need to be very sure.

If that happens, we'll see what to do.
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#1394767 - 10/06/15 10:02 AM Re: JOEY REJECTION???? [Re: SuggieGirl16]
dinah505 Offline
Glider Lover

Registered: 04/08/13
Posts: 534
Loc: Albuquerque,nm
I don't think I would separate them yet I would watch them though there might have been something wrong with the joey that you can't see but maybe a breeder with more experience would I hope one chimes in. sorry about your joey.
_________________________
Dinah
Mom to Boo. Critter ,Professor Nippy,Beautiful AKA BO ,Tweety,Ula.Kiah, and Bratty Daphne
Glide Free Audrey

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#1394863 - 10/08/15 01:47 PM Re: JOEY REJECTION???? [Re: SuggieGirl16]
SuggieGirl16 Offline
Joey Member

Registered: 07/23/12
Posts: 146
Loc: Wisconsin, USA
I wanted to give an update on the second joey. First off I have to explain that the joey that was cannibalized was not "my joey" (the one I started to hand-raise) named Liam. Since both were twin boys I put a tiny bit of non-toxic blue nailpolish on the tip of one of Liam's back nails before I put him back in with mom and dad for the night because mom was calling him (which I thought was a good sign). When I saw the cannibalized joey the next morning I automatically assumed it was him because why would they cannibalize the one they seemed to accept? However, later that morning, I found the joey that was still alive on the bottom of the cage again. This is when I picked him up and closely examined him and realized it was Liam, "my joey." He had the blue nailpolish on his nail. That being said, since there was already a history of rejection and they cannibalized the boy (Leroy) I thought they accepted, I quickly pulled Liam back out of there. I have gone back to hand-raising him completely. So far I think he is doing well. He's a hungry little munchkin - always ready to eat. He's gained a little weight and he is very responsive and active. We had a little bit of trouble with bloating on Tuesday night as I couldn't get him to defecate so we did a late night Target run to get some Little Tummies Infant Gas Relief drops. Those seemed to work right away. I got him to go to the bathroom after the first feeding. So far everything is looking on the up and up and I'm really hoping for the best.

I just don't know what went on with mom and dad. I guess they either just don't want to be parents or didn't know how.


Edited by SuggieGirl16 (10/08/15 01:58 PM)
_________________________
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Julia

Mommy to

:grey: Lucy :wfb: Luka

:grey: Liam mlove

:rbridge: Casper and Leroy ~ Glide free babies!

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#1394864 - 10/08/15 02:18 PM Re: JOEY REJECTION???? [Re: SuggieGirl16]
dinah505 Offline
Glider Lover

Registered: 04/08/13
Posts: 534
Loc: Albuquerque,nm
I am glad he is ok and it is great that he is loving to eat. good luck with your joey
_________________________
Dinah
Mom to Boo. Critter ,Professor Nippy,Beautiful AKA BO ,Tweety,Ula.Kiah, and Bratty Daphne
Glide Free Audrey

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#1394865 - 10/08/15 02:39 PM Re: JOEY REJECTION???? [Re: SuggieGirl16]
chinagurl5 Offline
New Member

Registered: 08/18/15
Posts: 7
Loc: VA, USA
Sorry to hear about Leroy. Lots of luck to you and Liam.
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:grey: Lamia, Nyx, Vlad :wfb: Banshee, Atlas
:leu: Loki

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#1394909 - 10/09/15 02:58 PM Re: JOEY REJECTION???? [Re: SuggieGirl16]
SuggieGirl16 Offline
Joey Member

Registered: 07/23/12
Posts: 146
Loc: Wisconsin, USA
Hi everyone, I have another question. I decided to just reply to this post instead of start a new one as it relates to the rejection.

How often should a 5 day old joey be going to the bathroom? I can only get him to defecate after about every fourth or fifth feed. Is this normal? Should he be going more?

(He is urinating normally - after every single feed.)

Thanks all! (And thank you everyone so much for your support, help, and kind words through all of this. You have no idea how much I appreciate it!)


Edited by SuggieGirl16 (10/09/15 06:07 PM)
_________________________
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Julia

Mommy to

:grey: Lucy :wfb: Luka

:grey: Liam mlove

:rbridge: Casper and Leroy ~ Glide free babies!

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#1395345 - 10/23/15 01:25 PM Re: JOEY REJECTION???? [Re: SuggieGirl16]
SuggieGirl16 Offline
Joey Member

Registered: 07/23/12
Posts: 146
Loc: Wisconsin, USA
Just wanted to give a quick update on Liam - the surviving joey that I am hand-raising. He is doing really well, getting bigger everyday. He's got fur on his tummy now and is starting to nibble at just about everything. And he's getting more curious about his surroundings, peeking out of my bra more often lol.

I attached a recent pic smile


Attachments
IMG_4166.JPG (17 downloads)

_________________________
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Julia

Mommy to

:grey: Lucy :wfb: Luka

:grey: Liam mlove

:rbridge: Casper and Leroy ~ Glide free babies!

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#1395347 - 10/23/15 01:27 PM Re: JOEY REJECTION???? [Re: SuggieGirl16]
Feather Offline
Administrator

Registered: 01/19/08
Posts: 12068
Loc: Wisconsin
Cute!
_________________________
Kimberley
Feathers-Sweetie, Sklyar Blue, Mister Peanut, Big Mack & Ibo
Fur-Guinan, Mr. Spock, T'Mir, Micheal, Stevie, Cho & Maharet :bb: T'Pol, Elizabeth & Curzon :wfb: TY, TJ, Khayman & T'Pring :rtmo: O'Ryan :leu:
Forever in my heart, Gizmo, Tucker and the rest of my babies over the :rbridge:


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#1395369 - 10/24/15 05:39 PM Re: JOEY REJECTION???? [Re: SuggieGirl16]
dinah505 Offline
Glider Lover

Registered: 04/08/13
Posts: 534
Loc: Albuquerque,nm
Awwe what a sweet boy
_________________________
Dinah
Mom to Boo. Critter ,Professor Nippy,Beautiful AKA BO ,Tweety,Ula.Kiah, and Bratty Daphne
Glide Free Audrey

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#1395438 - 10/28/15 11:13 AM Re: JOEY REJECTION???? [Re: SuggieGirl16]
Aqua Offline
Out of Pouch

Registered: 08/06/14
Posts: 58
Loc: IL
I love the updates, always so good to hear when things are going well. This reminds me of my glider's first joeys. I did end up hand-raising her first one (the other sadly was cannibalized). The second litter she rejected one of the joeys, but the third litter she has been a great mom. She seemed to want to stay out of the pouch too long. Sue's instructions were so valuable!

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