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#1413764 - 12/26/17 12:51 AM No Sounds Made From Neuter Self Mutilation
BloodRedDragon Offline
New Member

Registered: 12/25/17
Posts: 8
Loc: Texas
Hello.

I am not new to the glider community and have used GliderCentral for many many years now for unanswered questions that might have come up. However, I just registered today so I could post part of my story hoping it might help a few other people. Since I am making this post, it should give everyone an idea of how important I think this is for you to be aware.

I am not seeking any advice, criticism or reminders on the many mistakes I did in my situation please. It is a constant reminder already. I just simply want to let everyone know that you can't always go by what is almost always said with these little guys since every glider and circumstance is different.

Our story - I recently purchased a retired breeding pair for my little boy, Leon. Leon is a 5 year old unneutered male. Obviously, I had to get both boys neutered before ever trying the introductions. I hated the idea of neutering for several reasons I won't go into but knew it was necessary to attempt a colony. I've always had gliders going on 16 years now in my life, but never put myself in a position to have a male neutered. I chose Whitehouse Veterinary Clinic over 2 hours away from me. It is on the list of sugar glider vets with in the database. I read great reviews about Dr. Kirk Reese and his knowledge of these exotic animals so I was confident in my choice. I called and asked all the right questions or so I thought - The receptionist asked the vet and relayed the answers back to me.

1. How many gliders have y'all neutered? Didn't have an exact number, but gave me the impression it is a lot. 2. Success rate with neutering? Never had an issue (until now!) 3. Does the vet require a weight limit? No, as long as the males are old enough. 4. How much for neutering POM ON? They will do POM ON for $194 each, waive the first exam and the second exam with be $44.24. 5. Does that include pain medication too? Yes. 6. Discount for neutering more than 1? No. 7. Do you use glue, stitches or laser? Laser only. 8. How long with it take? I will drop them off at 8:30am and pick them up by 4pm. 9. What is required to bring after the procedure? Just food (I also brought e-collars, bonding pouches, blankets and cages just in case.)

Sounded good to me so I made an appointment and dropped them off. They literally meant drop them off though. As soon as I got there, they took them away without any chance of goodbyes while I signed a few papers and said I could pick them up by 2 now. I got a call 2 hours later saying they were done and doing good but since I thought I had some time to kill, I drove another 45 minutes away to visit family. When I got back to the vet's office, to my shocking surpise the LADY vet (key word there!) went over their pain meds. I asked if they put e-collars on them and she said no. I also asked what is recommended when I get them home and she gave me a weird look, so I said since Lewie has a cage mate named Rita, should I keep them separated for oh say 24 hours or more? She said 24 hours yes... Geez. Another red flag. Just like dropping them off, I was rushed again out the door.

Before I made the long drive home again, I checked on the little guys real quick. Leon was in his pouch while Lewie was out running around in his cage. I gave them a few treats and left. I thought I noticed I didn't see anything "hanging down" from Lewie but chaulked it up to probably the weather being cold outside.

I got home and settled them back in. By then, I got a better look at Lewie and Leon and sure enough a POM OFF procedure was done. I can not even begin to describe how mad I was at that point and still am. I looked at my receipt in detail searching for answers still wondering earlier why I paid so much less than what was quoted to me over the phone and it not being a "surprise" like the receptionist said. All I found was no exams were done or they just didn't charge me for one of them.

I specifically did not want a POM OFF procedure for these reasons. 1. According to available information, gliders have a higher risk of self mutilation with POM OFF than POM ON. 2. Older gliders are at higher risk, especially with the POM OFF technique. 3. Since I know Leon like I know myself and my son, I KNEW for a fact if the POM OFF was done, he would go for the site without question!

Anyways, from the very second I picked them up at the vet's office, I listened carefully for the "noise". Everything I read indicated if they are to self mutilate, they will make the noise either before something is done or during the act. However, this was NOT the case for us. Granted, they could have sounded off before I picked them up at the vet's but if that was the case, you would think they would have known to put the e-collars on, right!?

Lewie was the first one to hurt himself and the one I wasn't sure about since I didn't know him yet. I pulled Leon out about 9:40pm to see how he is doing and give him more love. I had him out less than 30 minutes and put him back in his cage. Then I pulled out Lewie and low and behold in less than half an hour he did quite a bit of damage. Once again, I did not hear a peep! We couldn't keep the e-collar on him literally to save his life, so we made an e-jacket while baby-sitting him. We made another for Leon just in case and watched him like a hawk. Once again, around 3:45am the next morning, Leon starts in on his site and the e-jacket was put on several times over a day and half before he finally couldn't wiggle out of it eventually.

Another strong point I want to make is from what I read, if they are to self mutilate after a neuter, the highest risk involves BEFORE the anesthesia wears off and then it dwendles down to almost nothing the more time passes by. However, I believe it was when the anesthesia wore off that they went straight for it.

Needless to say, I called the vet the next morning and asked her to explain to me exactly what they did to them. She went over the procedure with me in detail and I told her I was told it would be a POM ON procedure and to my surprise the exact opposite was done. I told her why I did not want the other one done. Let's just say I shared a piece of my mind. It's bad enough when one of them hurts themselves, but what are the chances of BOTH of my gliders self mutilating from the same vet, same day, same procedure, really? If anyone has THAT answer, I would love to know!

Obviously I can't say for sure because I didn't get a real close up look of each site before the mutilating started, but I agree with Bourbon that most likely the vet cut the "stalk" too short. For me, that is the ONLY explaination I can think of for why this happened to both of them.

My point is nothing is set in stone with little guys and I wanted to make sure everyone knows that. Thanks for your time.





Edited by BloodRedDragon (12/26/17 08:45 AM)

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#1413770 - 12/26/17 09:49 AM Re: No Sounds Made From Neuter Self Mutilation [Re: BloodRedDragon]
Ladymagyver Offline
Moderator

Registered: 10/07/14
Posts: 2441
Loc: SW Missouri
Wow. What a story... I'm afraid I haven't had this experience yet, but I look forward to hearing from those who have.

Through other posts however I will ask if they shaved anything prior to neuter?

Did they send you home with pain meds?
_________________________
Dawn

https://www.facebook.com/uptilldawngliders/

Inhale the future...
Exhale the past...




Fiona :grey:
Dot :grey:

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#1413772 - 12/26/17 10:07 AM Re: No Sounds Made From Neuter Self Mutilation [Re: BloodRedDragon]
Feather Offline
Administrator

Registered: 01/19/08
Posts: 12305
Loc: Wisconsin
Originally Posted By: BloodRedDragon
Hello.

I am not new to the glider community and have used GliderCentral for many many years now for unanswered questions that might have come up. However, I just registered today so I could post part of my story hoping it might help a few other people. Since I am making this post, it should give everyone an idea of how important I think this is for you to be aware.

I am not seeking any advice, criticism or reminders on the many mistakes I did in my situation please. It is a constant reminder already. I just simply want to let everyone know that you can't always go by what is almost always said with these little guys since every glider and circumstance is different.

Our story - I recently purchased a retired breeding pair for my little boy, Leon. Leon is a 5 year old unneutered male. Obviously, I had to get both boys neutered before ever trying the introductions. I hated the idea of neutering for several reasons I won't go into but knew it was necessary to attempt a colony. I've always had gliders going on 16 years now in my life, but never put myself in a position to have a male neutered. I chose Whitehouse Veterinary Clinic over 2 hours away from me. It is on the list of sugar glider vets with in the database. I read great reviews about Dr. Kirk Reese and his knowledge of these exotic animals so I was confident in my choice. I called and asked all the right questions or so I thought - The receptionist asked the vet and relayed the answers back to me.

1. How many gliders have y'all neutered? Didn't have an exact number, but gave me the impression it is a lot. 2. Success rate with neutering? Never had an issue (until now!) 3. Does the vet require a weight limit? No, as long as the males are old enough. 4. How much for neutering POM ON? They will do POM ON for $194 each, waive the first exam and the second exam with be $44.24. 5. Does that include pain medication too? Yes. 6. Discount for neutering more than 1? No. 7. Do you use glue, stitches or laser? Laser only. 8. How long with it take? I will drop them off at 8:30am and pick them up by 4pm. 9. What is required to bring after the procedure? Just food (I also brought e-collars, bonding pouches, blankets and cages just in case.)

Sounded good to me so I made an appointment and dropped them off. They literally meant drop them off though. As soon as I got there, they took them away without any chance of goodbyes while I signed a few papers and said I could pick them up by 2 now. I got a call 2 hours later saying they were done and doing good but since I thought I had some time to kill, I drove another 45 minutes away to visit family. When I got back to the vet's office, to my shocking surpise the LADY vet (key word there!) went over their pain meds. I asked if they put e-collars on them and she said no. I also asked what is recommended when I get them home and she gave me a weird look, so I said since Lewie has a cage mate named Rita, should I keep them separated for oh say 24 hours or more? She said 24 hours yes... Geez. Another red flag. Just like dropping them off, I was rushed again out the door.

Before I made the long drive home again, I checked on the little guys real quick. Leon was in his pouch while Lewie was out running around in his cage. I gave them a few treats and left. I thought I noticed I didn't see anything "hanging down" from Lewie but chaulked it up to probably the weather being cold outside.

I got home and settled them back in. By then, I got a better look at Lewie and Leon and sure enough a POM OFF procedure was done. I can not even begin to describe how mad I was at that point and still am. I looked at my receipt in detail searching for answers still wondering earlier why I paid so much less than what was quoted to me over the phone and it not being a "surprise" like the receptionist said. All I found was no exams were done or they just didn't charge me for one of them.

I specifically did not want a POM OFF procedure for these reasons. 1. According to available information, gliders have a higher risk of self mutilation with POM OFF than POM ON. 2. Older gliders are at higher risk, especially with the POM OFF technique. 3. Since I know Leon like I know myself and my son, I KNEW for a fact if the POM OFF was done, he would go for the site without question!

I have had well over 20 pom off neuters done and never had a glider SM. Did they shave them before the surgery?

Anyways, from the very second I picked them up at the vet's office, I listened carefully for the "noise". Everything I read indicated if they are to self mutilate, they will make the noise either before something is done or during the act. However, this was NOT the case for us. Granted, they could have sounded off before I picked them up at the vet's but if that was the case, you would think they would have known to put the e-collars on, right!?

Not every glider will make the noise when they are SMing.

Lewie was the first one to hurt himself and the one I wasn't sure about since I didn't know him yet. I pulled Leon out about 9:40pm to see how he is doing and give him more love. I had him out less than 30 minutes and put him back in his cage. Then I pulled out Lewie and low and behold in less than half an hour he did quite a bit of damage. Once again, I did not hear a peep! We couldn't keep the e-collar on him literally to save his life, so we made an e-jacket while baby-sitting him. We made another for Leon just in case and watched him like a hawk. Once again, around 3:45am the next morning, Leon starts in on his site and the e-jacket was put on several times over a day and half before he finally couldn't wiggle out of it eventually.

Another strong point I want to make is from what I read, if they are to self mutilate after a neuter, the highest risk involves BEFORE the anesthesia wears off and then it dwendles down to almost nothing the more time passes by. However, I believe it was when the anesthesia wore off that they went straight for it.

Needless to say, I called the vet the next morning and asked her to explain to me exactly what they did to them. She went over the procedure with me in detail and I told her I was told it would be a POM ON procedure and to my surprise the exact opposite was done. I told her why I did not want the other one done. Let's just say I shared a piece of my mind. It's bad enough when one of them hurts themselves, but what are the chances of BOTH of my gliders self mutilating from the same vet, same day, same procedure, really? If anyone has THAT answer, I would love to know!

Obviously I can't say for sure because I didn't get a real close up look of each site before the mutilating started, but I agree with Bourbon that most likely the vet cut the "stalk" too short. For me, that is the ONLY explaination I can think of for why this happened to both of them.

My point is nothing is set in stone with little guys and I wanted to make sure everyone knows that. Thanks for your time.

I will agree with what Bourbon said, they need to make the cut a little higher off of the tummy.

I have also found and I have discussed this in depth with a vet in Kentucky when we had to have an emergency tail amputation while attending the SGGA. Don't shave for tail amputations or neuters it reduces the instances of SM after surgery.

Please keep us posted on your boys.




_________________________
Kimberley
Feathers-Sweetie, Sklyar Blue, Mister Peanut, Big Mack & Ibo
Fur-Guinan, Mr. Spock, T'Mir, Micheal, Stevie, Cho & Maharet :bb: T'Pol, Elizabeth & Curzon :wfb: TY, TJ, Khayman & T'Pring :rtmo: O'Ryan :leu:
Forever in my heart, Gizmo, Tucker and the rest of my babies over the :rbridge:


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#1413776 - 12/26/17 11:51 AM Re: No Sounds Made From Neuter Self Mutilation [Re: BloodRedDragon]
BloodRedDragon Offline
New Member

Registered: 12/25/17
Posts: 8
Loc: Texas
Dawn, I have heard about the shaving too and no they did not shave the sites, thank goodness. It seems that is the ONLY good thing they did and I think I just lucked out there. However, since they didn't shave anything, it makes me wonder even more.. Yes, I briefly mentioned the vet going over the pain meds with me..

Feather, your right. Poor choice of words on my part. Emotions and all. I meant to say that it is more common they make the warning noise than doesn't make it. I just found it odd behavior that BOTH of them didn't.
I know the policy on this website says not to mention names and such, but I also felt compelled to let people know in Texas about this LADY vet. Sorry if I am breaking any rules...

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#1413777 - 12/26/17 12:05 PM Re: No Sounds Made From Neuter Self Mutilation [Re: BloodRedDragon]
Ladymagyver Offline
Moderator

Registered: 10/07/14
Posts: 2441
Loc: SW Missouri
I'm so sorry this happened.

How bad have they damaged this area?

Most of the lazer neuter I have read were successful, although during the OSGA this year, they definitely covered how far to cut the stem.

I'm still learning about this process, so please keep us posted.

Thank you for sharing your experience.
_________________________
Dawn

https://www.facebook.com/uptilldawngliders/

Inhale the future...
Exhale the past...




Fiona :grey:
Dot :grey:

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#1413778 - 12/26/17 01:01 PM Re: No Sounds Made From Neuter Self Mutilation [Re: BloodRedDragon]
BloodRedDragon Offline
New Member

Registered: 12/25/17
Posts: 8
Loc: Texas
Dawn, thank you for the sentiment. I really appreciate it, though I did not make the post for sympathy. Please don't take any offense to that statement. My purpose was to share our story in the hopes it with help others and they won't go through the same thing. After all, isn't that what this forum is all about. Education based on experience.

Yeah, that was what I read also and why I was willing to pay more than double the amount for laser and experience hoping it would help our chances of nothing bad happening.. But ya know how things go sometimes..

I really rather not go into those types of details unless someone might need some assistance in this area, but I know there are way more people on here with much more knowledge in self mutilation. It's a lot harder to re-hash that part. I will say that I thought Leon's was worse at first, but later found out it was Lewie that did the most damage. His was about 1/2" long gash with a deep whole at one end. It's taking the longest time to heal.

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#1413794 - 12/26/17 10:21 PM Re: No Sounds Made From Neuter Self Mutilation [Re: BloodRedDragon]
Feather Offline
Administrator

Registered: 01/19/08
Posts: 12305
Loc: Wisconsin
Can you post pictures of their tummys.

I just had 5 gliders neutered today all is good and they are back with their families.
_________________________
Kimberley
Feathers-Sweetie, Sklyar Blue, Mister Peanut, Big Mack & Ibo
Fur-Guinan, Mr. Spock, T'Mir, Micheal, Stevie, Cho & Maharet :bb: T'Pol, Elizabeth & Curzon :wfb: TY, TJ, Khayman & T'Pring :rtmo: O'Ryan :leu:
Forever in my heart, Gizmo, Tucker and the rest of my babies over the :rbridge:


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#1413801 - 12/27/17 09:44 AM Re: No Sounds Made From Neuter Self Mutilation [Re: Feather]
BloodRedDragon Offline
New Member

Registered: 12/25/17
Posts: 8
Loc: Texas
Feather, I am so glad to hear you have had great success with neutering and wish all the best for the future and everyone else too.

Since you asked about pictures, I had to read how to upload photos but it won't let me. Saying the first picture is too big.

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#1413804 - 12/27/17 11:05 AM Re: No Sounds Made From Neuter Self Mutilation [Re: BloodRedDragon]
KarenE Offline
Owner

Registered: 03/25/00
Posts: 41533
Loc: LittleRock, AR USA
Originally Posted By: BloodRedDragon
Dawn, I have heard about the shaving too and no they did not shave the sites, thank goodness. It seems that is the ONLY good thing they did and I think I just lucked out there. However, since they didn't shave anything, it makes me wonder even more.. Yes, I briefly mentioned the vet going over the pain meds with me..

Feather, your right. Poor choice of words on my part. Emotions and all. I meant to say that it is more common they make the warning noise than doesn't make it. I just found it odd behavior that BOTH of them didn't.
I know the policy on this website says not to mention names and such, but I also felt compelled to let people know in Texas about this LADY vet. Sorry if I am breaking any rules...


Quote:
Rule 4 (In part)4. GliderCENTRAL is a family oriented board moving towards a "PG" rather than a "G" rating. Be polite, courteous and respectful to other board members at all times. This means illegal substances, illegal activities, flaming, sexually explicit subjects, spamming, harassing, policing, diet bashing, and abusive or negative personal posts are not allowed.


If a Veterinary Clinic or Office has a website then it may be discussed/posted here as long as it does not go to rude and abusive, which you have not. You have posted within the rules of the Board.
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#1413808 - 12/27/17 11:33 AM Re: No Sounds Made From Neuter Self Mutilation [Re: BloodRedDragon]
BloodRedDragon Offline
New Member

Registered: 12/25/17
Posts: 8
Loc: Texas
KarenE, thanks for clarifying the rules for me. I'm glad I didn't do anything wrong although I have to admit. While I was explaining some of our story, it was very hard to hold back my tongue.. I do understand how to be tactful and professional though.

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#1413822 - 12/27/17 10:57 PM Re: No Sounds Made From Neuter Self Mutilation [Re: BloodRedDragon]
Claralice Offline
Joey Member

Registered: 12/03/17
Posts: 84
Loc: Ada OK
I am so sorry this happened to you and your babies. I have two very sweet and friendly unaltered gliders and now, I am not sure what I will do. They are cage mates and are about ten months old. I know that as they get older, they can get more aggressive but your experience concerns me. I have no females in the house and do not plan on any, still I worry about the potential for aggression.
I hope your babies heal quickly and rapidly get back to their healthy selves.
I also have located vets that would do the procedure and claim to have experience but how does one verify if one decides there is no other choice!


Edited by Claralice (12/27/17 11:26 PM)
Edit Reason: add question

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#1413835 - 12/28/17 10:44 AM Re: No Sounds Made From Neuter Self Mutilation [Re: Claralice]
BloodRedDragon Offline
New Member

Registered: 12/25/17
Posts: 8
Loc: Texas
Claralice, thanks for the best wishes and the same for you. :-)

As for your situation, I am by no means an expert with these little guys so please keep that in mind and I wouldn't be offended in the least if you asked from more knowledgable owners.

With that being said and going off endless hours of reading over the years, I will give you some points to think about. First, I would ask if your two males are brothers perhaps? I have heard in these instances, it usually isn't necessary to neuter them since they are related, grew up together and don't see each one as a threat. If that is the case, then it would be more of a wait and see senario. Even if they aren't related, I would say practically the same thing. You said they are cage mates and a lot of times if they grow up together at a young age, they will see each other as brothers too. I would advice to be more cautious if they are non related though and watch out for them balling up.

Secondly and this is going off my personal experience, just because you don't "plan" on getting a female now, doesn't mean that won't change later on, for whatever reason.. My first and second sugar gliders were females and I got them at different ages and times. Bebe was the first and forever my precious baby. Monique was a rescue if I EVER heard of one and took years to tame her, although she was never as sweet as Bebe. I loved her just the same though and was most proud of her. The girls didn't really get along too well, despite all my best efforts and had to separate on numerous occasions.

I honestly wasn't planning on ever adopting a male, but one of my family members purchased Leon to breed and said he was a little toot and wanted to re-home him. Despite what I planned and wanted, I got him anyways. She sure was right about him being a toot, but he's MY little toot now! Lol..

Once my girls passed, I was left with an unneutered male that I needed another cage mate for. The exact situation I was in recently. The way I saw it, I would most likely have problems with both sexes from Leon chewing another pea size whole in a girl to getting a non related male and fighting. Since I had such trouble with Bebe and Monique getting along, Leon hurting Monique and having to keep them separate and the fact I kept getting one glider at a time over the years, I didn't want to make the same mistakes again and was determined to find at least two bonded pair (technically, I wanted 3 new ones). I hope you see where I am going with this.. I never got Leon fixed for several reasons, but I will say this, I do regret it now not getting him fixed when he was young. I wouldn't have been in this very sticky situation if I would have. I really wish I would have given thought for the future and realize I would be down to one eventually and then what..

I am by no means telling you what you should do. You know your gliders, what's best for them and that's your decision. I am simply given you some things to think of that I wish I did.

As for the vets, I am really not the person to ask about that right now! Lol. I strongly suggest not going to Whitehouse just in case, but that's my personal opinion. The best advice I can give you is to ask around on GliderCentral about the vets you called and see what experiences owners have had with them. Honestly, even if you decide not to get them neutered right now, I recommend doing that anyways just in case your in a pickle one day and are forced to neuter to stop the fighting. I also want to say that people are right, don't doubt that. The chances of anything bad happening post neuter is very slim. I'm just one of the very very few people that got the short end of the stick with both of mine. If you do decide to have them neutered and since yours is less than a year old, I wouldn't worry much about it, really.

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#1413844 - 12/28/17 01:35 PM Re: No Sounds Made From Neuter Self Mutilation [Re: BloodRedDragon]
Claralice Offline
Joey Member

Registered: 12/03/17
Posts: 84
Loc: Ada OK
Thank you for taking the time to respond. I am thinking long and hard about what you said BloodRedDragon. Also, I live in OK and the vets are at least two hours away. That said, I don't know any locals that have gliders and so will have to figure out how to judge the best vet-not sure how. And yes they are siblings OOP at the same time.
Again, thank you and hope your babies are fine!

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#1413846 - 12/28/17 02:38 PM Re: No Sounds Made From Neuter Self Mutilation [Re: BloodRedDragon]
BloodRedDragon Offline
New Member

Registered: 12/25/17
Posts: 8
Loc: Texas
Yeah, if you don't live in a big city, more than likely you will have to make a long drive. It's part of having an exotic animal I'm afraid.

Like I said, you could do what I did only BETTER. ;-) Make a list of the available OK glider vets within the database, read any reviews, call each one asking questions and write down the answers, all while making notes. Then get on here and start reading, asking around or make a post. I'm sure your bound to get some answers and be able to limit your list down to just one.

Please don't make the mistake I did and just assume the vet you've read such great reviews about is the one doing the surgery though.. One question I didn't think to ask..

I wish all the best Claralice to you and your babies. Happy New Year!

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#1413847 - 12/28/17 02:54 PM Re: No Sounds Made From Neuter Self Mutilation [Re: BloodRedDragon]
BloodRedDragon Offline
New Member

Registered: 12/25/17
Posts: 8
Loc: Texas
Oh, Claralice.. how to judge the best vet depends on what you want and what your looking for - at least it was for me. POM OFF or POM ON, glue/stitches or laser, how many years of experience, success rate, total price and how far away they where were just some of the things I used to judge. And most importantly, what other people say about them and their experience. However, since I decided to go with laser, Whitehouse was the only vet within 2 1/2 hours that offered it.. Hope that helps for whatever you decide.

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