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#1511 - 02/17/02 06:53 PM Concerning Colors and genetics
Anonymous
Unregistered


I have had several emails lately concerning colors and the genetic traits of different colored gliders. I have been asked whether a normal marked glider bred with a glider of color can produce a glider of color. The answer to this question is 100% yes. 90% of our blonde gliders are produced in exactly this fashion. We have done it this way to eliminate inbreeding. There are lots of misconceptions regarding "het" for color and normal marked gliders. We have produced 2 blonde babies from a "het to blonde and a normal mate. The genetics of gliders is a fairly new field to most people. I do not claim to be a genetic expert of any kind - but I have first hand knowledge and experience to be able to state these claims. I hope this helps answer some of the questions that have been posed.

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#1512 - 02/17/02 11:58 PM Re: Concerning Colors and genetics [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Glider Greetings:<p>What is "het"???<p> []images/icons/confused.gif" border="0[/] <img src="graemlins/question.gif" border="0" alt="question" /> []images/icons/confused.gif" border="0[/]

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#1513 - 02/18/02 04:12 AM Re: Concerning Colors and genetics [Re: ]
Judie Offline
Serious Glideritis

Registered: 10/25/01
Posts: 9173
Loc: Edwardsville, Kansas 66113
Het is offspring produced by a mutation but is of normal color. May or may not carry the gene. <p>Proven Het...has been breed and has produced a mutation in an offspring<p>A normal when bred to a Het can produce a mutation provided the Het has the gene.
_________________________
Web site: www.MyLittleGremlin.com

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#1514 - 02/18/02 07:28 AM Re: Concerning Colors and genetics [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Let me see if I can clear up a few defenitions.<p>Mutation: A change in the DNA at a particular locus in an organism. A sudden change in genotype having no relation to the individual's ancestry.
Dominant gene: A gene that produces its effect whenever it is present in the genotype. (think of this as A)
Recessive gene: A gene that cannot produce an effect if the dominant gene is present. (think of this as a)
Homozygous: The two genes of a genotype are alike.
(Homozygous dominant would be AA and Homozygous recessive would be aa)
Heterozygous (het): the two genes in a genotype are not alike (think of this as Aa)<p>That being stated, One must remember that rarely... very rarely does one gene pair code for a specific trait in most advanced liveforms. Generally there are numerous genes that work together to create specific traits. <p>For now lets think of the color of gliders as being caused by one gene pair. (its not but for simplicity think of it this way.) Normal grey gliders may be Homozygous Dominant (AA) or Heterozygous (Aa). You won't know because the grey gene is the dominant gene so whenever it is there the animal is grey. Albino's are on the other end of the spectrum... they are completely homozygous recessive.( they only have the recessive genes aa) Now breeding a Homozygous dominant to a het cannot produce an albino. (AA x Aa) Now the offspring may be a heterozygous but will not exhibit anything but normal colors since the dominant gene is there. Homozygous recessives bred with hets will have a chance of getting homzygous recessives but you have to remember that if the dominant gene gets passed along then they will appear normal. So breeding 2 homozygous recessives (albino's) will produce a homozygous recessive offspring only.
Ok now for the fun part. Like I said earlier, very rarely does one gene pair code for a specific trait. So there may be 2,3,4 or more gene pairs that can code for color (for example AAAAAA would be homozygous dominant if only 3 gene pairs coded for color and homozygous recessive would be aaaaaa). Now here's the catcher, When you get into multiple genes coding like this you get various combinations. ie, blones, grey's with white faces, whites with black eyes... Horses are the best example of this. You can look at a palamino horses (Roy Rodgers horse Trigger was a palamino)They are all the same color but they tend to be different shades of gold. ie one horse may be AaAaAA while another horse from the same parents will be palamino but a lighter shade with AAaaAA. <p>Ok now the point of this entire genetic lesson.
All of the fascinating "new" colors are NOT mutations. They are the expression of recessive traits that have been there all along and the reason they aren't seen in the wild is Natural Selection. (in other words they are easily seen and devoured... the "strongest" or best adapted survive) Furthermore, remember that when referring to a "het" this individual has both dominant and recessive genes which could be passed on to offspring. Genetics in Theory is an exact science but Mother Nature likes to make it a Guessing game.<p>Now I'm done <img src="graemlins/yelclap.gif" border="0" alt="clap" /> <img src="graemlins/yelclap.gif" border="0" alt="clap" /> <p>BT

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#1515 - 02/18/02 12:45 PM Re: Concerning Colors and genetics [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Do you have pictures you could share of your blonde gliders?

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#1516 - 02/18/02 01:10 PM Re: Concerning Colors and genetics [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered



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#1517 - 02/18/02 06:39 PM Re: Concerning Colors and genetics [Re: ]
Judie Offline
Serious Glideritis

Registered: 10/25/01
Posts: 9173
Loc: Edwardsville, Kansas 66113
The genotype is the genetic composition of a feature. This can only be documented accurtely for mutational forms. The phenotype is the physical outward expression of a feature. The same phenotype may not result from the same genotype. <p>CC genotype looks like the same Cc because C is dominant to c. Such individuals will breed very differently and important to remember. <p>Homoozygous means purbreeding for a given genotype. CC and cc are both of this type. They can pass only one sort of gene.<p>Heterozygous refers to different, or non purebreeding. Cc is of this type. The individual could pass either a C or a c to its offspring.<p>A dominant gene can express itself in single or double dose.. In the former case, it will suppress and mask the presence of a recessive gene at the same locus. It is denoted by use of a capital C letter.<p>Now a recessive gene must be present in double dose before it can be expressed. It is denoted by lower case c.<p>Full color has the letter C.
It's alternative is no color, or albino. This is letter c, which indicates it is a recessive gene. <p>A CC parent can only pass a C gene, a cc only a c. Their combination could produce Cc. Such an individual could pass either a C or a c-not both. <p>It is the gene from the other parent would determine the genotype and phenotype of the offspring.<p>The principles of heredity, on which the science is based, apply to all animals.
_________________________
Web site: www.MyLittleGremlin.com

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#1518 - 02/18/02 07:12 PM Re: Concerning Colors and genetics [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


My point exactly.
Thats the entire point I was trying to make in the simplest terms. Heterozygous animals (which contain a dominant and recessive gene) are not mutations. They are in simplest terms carriers of recessive genes. Yes you are correct a parent can only give 1/2 of its genetic makeup. I'm trying to present this information in the simplest terms for everyone. Therefore I limited my previous post to basics. After all not everyone on this board finds punnet squares and probabilities of geneotypic and phenotypic expression fascinating like you and I... I mean it took me 7 years and 2 degrees one of which is in Genetics/Animal Breeding. The biggest thing is proper use of genetic terms. I've noticed a lot of people using terms like mutation and het. interchangably. This tends to mislead and misinform.<p>BT

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#1519 - 02/18/02 07:46 PM Re: Concerning Colors and genetics [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Glider Greetings:<p>Got it !!<p>Thanks for the education.

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#1520 - 02/18/02 08:18 PM Re: Concerning Colors and genetics [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Randy, if your interested in the principles of heredity, type a search for "basic mendelian genetics". This should link you to a few university sites that have good info on how it works.<p>BT

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#1521 - 02/18/02 10:23 PM Re: Concerning Colors and genetics [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


For all of those who have asked for descriptions of and pictures of some of the different colors I have added a new page on my site to help try and explain all the different color displays as well as some pics THe link is at http://sandmanssugargliders.com/colours.html
<img src="graemlins/thumb.gif" border="0" alt="thumb" />

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#1522 - 02/19/02 12:27 AM Re: Concerning Colors and genetics [Re: ]
Sheila Offline
Serious Glideritis

Registered: 02/05/00
Posts: 5363
Loc: Ok
Mike are you saying here a het with a blonde produced blonde and a het with a normal produced blonde?
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ToandFro Gliders

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USDA Licensed breeder for 12 years and counting!

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#1523 - 02/19/02 01:36 AM Re: Concerning Colors and genetics [Re: ]
Judie Offline
Serious Glideritis

Registered: 10/25/01
Posts: 9173
Loc: Edwardsville, Kansas 66113
The white faced glider is bing linebred. Which means they are being inbred but at a lesser degree. It is a "closed" genetic pool but is wider and not so limiting as inbreeding. Breedings are usually cousin or further removed. This ia a slower way to breed for a specific trait but is also the safest for avoiding inherent problems.<p>Do not understand the genetics of white faced Blonde Het out of normal color and whited faced Blonde. Then being breed to a normal and thus producing a white faced blonde?<p>Wherezat? We could use a little help here........Please?
_________________________
Web site: www.MyLittleGremlin.com

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#1524 - 02/19/02 06:54 AM Re: Concerning Colors and genetics [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Color is a booger when it comes to genetics. For example there are 26 gene pairs coding for coat color in horses. Now for the fun part. Not only does heredity encompass dominant and recessive genes but genes can express co-dominance and semi-dominance. So even thought an animal may have a dominant gene with the presence of another gene you may get a blue roan (mixture of red, white and black hairs) instead of black (which is the dominant color in horses)or having a white flower and crossing it with a red flower and getting a pink floser. I wish that heredity was as simple as dominants and recessives but like everything else in life it isn't. Right now there's not much research information on glider genetics but as Judie said Heredity is the same for all animals.
Here's my line of thought and I could be wrong.
I think that sugar gliders have some sort of "dilution" factor not unlike that in horses. Which would explain why people are getting white faces gliders and other gliders with "high" white.
Now as far as blondes, platnums, cinnamons, etc etc. These would tend to be classified genotypically as heterozygous animals maybe with the dilution factor in varying consistancy ie one color exhibiting one dilution gene with a dominant,another color with 2 dilution genes and a recessive, you get the idea.
They aren't completely homozygous dominant (having all dominant genes) or Homozygous recessive (having only recessive genes). Now this does extend the genotypic reference of the Het term to encompass more than just the normal grey thats carrying a recessive{which you won't know from a Homozygous Dominant until you breed them). Most people in the horse world just tend refer to the animals by the phenotypic terms. If its got white and red hairs, its a red roan. If its black its a black. There's too many variations to try and refer to an animal by its genotypic nomenclature.
I know that if you check out the American Paint Horse Association (www.apha.com) they have a good resource link for color genetics. I'm pretty sure they still have a link to a study done at UC Davis concerning the dilution factors in horses.<p>BT
ps Judie, I had a prof that once defined "linebreeding" as inbreeding that works...<p>
[]images/icons/wink.gif" border="0[/] <p>[ 02-19-2002: Message edited by: Wherezat ]<p>[ 02-19-2002: Message edited by: Wherezat ]<p>[ 02-19-2002: Message edited by: Wherezat ]</p>

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#1525 - 02/19/02 08:56 AM Re: Concerning Colors and genetics [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Just to keep updated I emailed UC Davis' Veterinary Genetics Laboritory specifically their exotic division for more research leads on sugar glider genetics.<p>BT

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#1526 - 02/19/02 09:24 AM Re: Concerning Colors and genetics [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


So basically what mike is saying (a het w/ a normal can produce a blonde recessive?) meaning...the dominant gene exists but the blonde gene is showing in color because of the dilution factor? So the animal wouldnt be considered a dominant Homo (AA) it would be considered a recessive homo? (aa?) or would it be considered a het (Aa) showing the color trait because the genetic makeup deposited color on the hair shaft using a mixture of dominant gene and recessive to give the appearance of blonde (in different blonde color variances) being that the original color was grey but given the recessive gene it was diluted to any of the given variances of the blonde color? Please, I am highly into genetics but have no degree and am learning as I go, I know it is possible because I know Mike has a het for blonde and a normal paired and Mike has ended up with a blonde showing the color trait from a het/normal breeding. I do now completely understand with your descriptions in previous posts as I have been into genetics when breeding dogs/cats/horses for the past 16yrs. I hope I have it somewhat close to what your talking about as I have a het for blonde that I will be pairing with a normal and we shall see...I believe that this pair if given ample time can produce a blonde showing the trait, Mike has already proven that more than once. Thanks for all your expert knowledge on genetics...keep it coming I live for this stuff! Oh i will definately be interested in any research on the net or that u can email me as I love to learn all i can especially when it comes to the gliders <img src="graemlins/thumb.gif" border="0" alt="thumb" /> Thanks!

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#1527 - 02/19/02 09:43 AM Re: Concerning Colors and genetics [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Yes, thats my theory. (I only say that because I've heard no one else say it.) Breeding palamino horses is one of the best examples because there has been a lot of research. Basically they would be heterozygous because they don't have all dominant or all recessive genes. The dilution factor is interesting because it really messes with the way things go. It only takes one gene with the dilution factor to change the color. ie if you breed a horse and want a buckskin or palamino then you want a horse with one dunfactor gene. If the horse has two dun factors then its a cremello. Its really confusing how things go with the dilution factor. I do have one question that I may have overlooked the answer. Has anyone gotten any grey gliders from a normal grey and blonde cross? If so this would lead me to believe that there is definately a dilution gene present and that there only need be one for the blonde color.(reason behind this is that parent's giving off only half of their genetic makup. The blonde gave the color gene from its makeup that didn't have the dilution factor.)
I don't want to sound like a know it all. I'm just very interested in this. I could be VERY wrong. I'm forming all of this on the research that has been done with horse color.<p>BT <img src="graemlins/multi.gif" border="0" alt="[blob]" />

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#1528 - 02/19/02 11:07 PM Re: Concerning Colors and genetics [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Yes Brian
I have produced the following diffrent glider colors
Ex. 1 If you pair a normal grey with a blonde you can and will get the following. Normal grey appering babies as well as blondes(similar to your last batch of babies with your 2 normal marked gliders that produced 1 albino and 1 normal marked)
Ex 2 I have produced blondes also from a possible het for blonde and a normal grey.
Ex 3 in progress 2 blondes together (have a glider PG but do not know the colors yet.
Ex 4 Het for blonde with a blonde, They produce both normals and blondes. However the percent of normals in this group is less<p>I am No genetic expert in the least bit. But I do have hands on experience in this area. It is truely fasinating []images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/]<p>[ 02-19-2002: Message edited by: HeyMikey ]</p>

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#1529 - 02/19/02 11:24 PM Re: Concerning Colors and genetics [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Mike, have any of you het gliders been "odd" colored? Maybe white faced, lite grey color etc.
The reason I'm asking is because when one dilution gene is present in a horse it causes a palamino or dun color. When two are present it causes a Cremello which is basically a "blonde" horse.<p>BT

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#1530 - 02/19/02 11:26 PM Re: Concerning Colors and genetics [Re: ]
Judie Offline
Serious Glideritis

Registered: 10/25/01
Posts: 9173
Loc: Edwardsville, Kansas 66113
Could it be....possible het for blonde was bred to a normal who unknowlingly had the blonde gene thus it was a het too?
_________________________
Web site: www.MyLittleGremlin.com

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#1531 - 02/19/02 11:39 PM Re: Concerning Colors and genetics [Re: ]
Judie Offline
Serious Glideritis

Registered: 10/25/01
Posts: 9173
Loc: Edwardsville, Kansas 66113
The coat color seems to varie as well as the white in the white faced glider. It appears to dilute out going into the the third generation from Cereal.<p>The coat color is darker and the white becomes more creamier (yellow).<p>Remember this is linebreeding of one normal to a white face each generation.<p>The white face of Mike appears to have a very strong impact in first and second generation. It is the third generation it starts to dilute.
_________________________
Web site: www.MyLittleGremlin.com

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#1532 - 02/19/02 12:35 PM Re: Concerning Colors and genetics [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


I think the biggest problem with decyphering this information is the fact that we really don't know how many gene pairs code for color.
For example: Say the code for blonde is AABbcc Where AA is the homozygous dominant for grey but when the het for B is introduced along with the homo recessive for c it dominates the normal dominant grey and the animal is then some other color in this instance blonde.
I still think that the colors we tend to get are dominated by dilusion genes as well as some semi dominant genes... Ugh!!! back to step one. <img src="graemlins/help.gif" border="0" alt="help" />
BT

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#1533 - 02/19/02 12:40 PM Re: Concerning Colors and genetics [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Thats makes sense completely Judie...as Brian and I were just discussing....when u think of it in terms of horses....(i know gliders arent horses but its the best scenario we could come up with both understanding horses []images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/] ) with one dilution(sp?) factor you will get a palamino or dun. With 2 dilution factors you get a cremello...now this would explain why our blonde gliders have a creamier (more yellowish) underside than having the blonde on top and white on bottom. This would lead us to believe that 2 dilution factors are involved when producing this color. A cremello and blonde are primarily the same and we know to produce a cremello 2 dilution factors are needed. ( i hope i said this right...brian correct my errors if any...as i said sometimes i confuse myself..hehehe).... Oh what fun though...at least now with Mikes experience and brians, we have now a pretty good idea and at the same time we do have some proof with the outcome of mikes joeys. <img src="graemlins/yelclap.gif" border="0" alt="clap" /> <img src="graemlins/dance.gif" border="0" alt="dance" /> And when Rhett and Scarlett become mature we will have even more proof (if and) when I end up with a het that shows the color trait. <img src="graemlins/nixweiss.gif" border="0" alt="[shrug]" /> I am just going to wait and see...it will however be a while for those two. So I will keep learning and listening.<p>[ 02-19-2002: Message edited by: Sugarbeark ]</p>

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#1534 - 02/19/02 12:56 PM Re: Concerning Colors and genetics [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Here's the thing thats gonna be interesting... What if Mike's blonde pair produce a grey!!! Thats gonna be wild and completely throw our "cremello" theory out! []images/icons/wink.gif" border="0[/] []images/icons/wink.gif" border="0[/]
BT

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#1535 - 02/19/02 01:10 PM Re: Concerning Colors and genetics [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


yes.... now im desperately awaiting the outcome of that pairs baby!!! Ok set me straight here....I wonder what is the pairs would be considered then? are they aa? or Aa? Just to clear my head a little that would help me do some figuring. But now im wanting so badly to see what color this joey turns out to be. Cuz if its grey....that theory has a HUGE hole in it! <img src="graemlins/nixweiss.gif" border="0" alt="[shrug]" />

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#1536 - 02/19/02 01:24 PM Re: Concerning Colors and genetics [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


yep if their grey then There's something we weren't thinking about. It depends on what color the babies are. if their white they they would be homozygous recessive or for lack of better example aa. If they're grey then they would either be homozygous dominant AA or Heterozygous Aa. Now depending on how many gene pairs and codominance and semidominance factors plus factoring in the dilution factor the answer is 2. Oh wait that wasn't the question was it? []images/icons/wink.gif" border="0[/] []images/icons/wink.gif" border="0[/]
BT

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#1537 - 02/19/02 01:43 PM Re: Concerning Colors and genetics [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Mike..can u clear things up a bit for us???<p>The blonde pair that have a joey in pouch, are all four grandparents blondes? <p>What color were moms parents?
What color were dads parents? <p>That would help tremendously in making sure our theory is gonna stand up. <p>Because if knowledge serves me right(and believe me it doesnt alot of the time) if both parents were a heterozygous showing the blonde trait...wouldnt that give ample room for having a heterozygous baby that carries the blonde gene but shows the normal grey color? And wouldnt that keep our theory in tact? <p>Ok does this make sense?
if mom and dad are aA= het showing blonde
and baby comes out Aa=het showing grey
or baby is like them aA=het showing blonde
then i theory still stands correct right?<p>mom=aA-het showing blonde
dad=aA-" "<p>baby can be either<p>/ aA-het showing blonde
/ Aa-het showing grey but carries blonde gene
/ AA-homo grey
/ aa-recessive homo showing blonde <p>Can u get a recessive homo from two het's? or is that not possible? Oh this can be confusing.<p>Ok i will shut up i could go on and on.
<img src="graemlins/nixweiss.gif" border="0" alt="[shrug]" />

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#1538 - 02/19/02 03:11 PM Re: Concerning Colors and genetics [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


just wanted to throw a wrench in the works. First of all, I think everyone realises that this is VERY simplified genetics. There could be many many many other factors at work here. I for one am living proof of weird recessive genes. For years, I believed that I could not possibly be the child of both of my parents, because they both have EXTREMELY BLUE eyes and I have very dark green, almost brown eyes. Come to find out, I have quite a bit of cherokee blood from my father's side and there is a recessive brown eye gene in that gene pool. so what is recessive in one gene pool is not always so in others. What if some blonde genes are actually dominant? This could just be a different mutation in one family of gliders. It will be interesting to find out what the two blondes produce. <img src="graemlins/read.gif" border="0" alt="read" />

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#1539 - 02/19/02 04:42 PM Re: Concerning Colors and genetics [Re: ]
Sheila Offline
Serious Glideritis

Registered: 02/05/00
Posts: 5363
Loc: Ok
One of my whitefaced blondes is not cream on the tummy but white
_________________________
ToandFro Gliders

http://www.toandfrogliders.com

USDA Licensed breeder for 12 years and counting!

WE SELL THE STEALTH WHEEL

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#1540 - 02/19/02 05:24 PM Re: Concerning Colors and genetics [Re: ]
Sheila Offline
Serious Glideritis

Registered: 02/05/00
Posts: 5363
Loc: Ok
Mike, which one of your het parents produced a blonde when matched with a normal? What did the joey look like?
"Ex 2 I have produced blondes also from a possible het for blonde and a normal grey."
_________________________
ToandFro Gliders

http://www.toandfrogliders.com

USDA Licensed breeder for 12 years and counting!

WE SELL THE STEALTH WHEEL

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