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#15241 - 12/05/03 01:12 PM seizuers
Anonymous
Unregistered


Someone that I have given 2 gliders too called me today with a problem...one of the gliders had a seizuer. They are only about 6 months old, he took them to the vet, the vet kept him over night and did some work. The conclusion the vet came to is that the glider seized from calcium deficency, is that possible? they gave the glider some sugar water and heated him up and now is doing great.

Now these gliders have allways been on the BML diet untill the person took them and had a hard time finding the gerber yuogurt mix so he substituted it with gerber juice from concentrate and they havent seemed to been eating it, this is only for the past two weeks. Is that long enough to start a calcium deficency? I was thinking their was a reaction from the preservatives in the concentrate, is that possible?

He is going to write on this forum later with all the test results from the vet and the medication the vet wants him to give the glider. right now I told him to clean his cage, feeding dishes, water bottle thoughly and to throw out the BML mix he made and make another.

Also I am trying to talk to his vet to see what exactly was done and to refer him to the GC vet forum.

Does anyone have any ideas on this? any help would be great, even though these animals arent mine anymore I raised them and want to make sure everything is going to be ok. thanks chris

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#15242 - 12/05/03 01:52 PM Re: seizuers [Re: ]
StitchsMom Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 09/24/03
Posts: 10569
Loc: IL (St. Louis area)
<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/nixweiss.gif" alt="" /> I wish I could help you out. Two weeks does seem awfully fast for a calcium deficiency to set in and cause seizures, but I'm no vet. I'll go try searching the net for info for you. In the mean time, I think you are doing a great thing by being to caring and compassionate to these gliders and their owners. I hope someone comes along soon who can really help you out!

Jenny
_________________________
~*~Jenny and the fur kids~*~

:grey: :grey: :grey: :leu:

>>> Sugar Glider Slave <<<

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#15243 - 12/05/03 01:52 PM Re: seizuers [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Chris, if these babies have been on the BML diet, there should not be a calcium deficiency, even if they had not eaten the correct BML for two weeks, that's not really enough time for this to occurr. There has to be something underlying this....the only thing I can say is that we wait for your friend to post with more information and see what the experts here have to suggest. Judie and Chey are both very knowledgable with this type of stuff. I have never had the misfortune of having this happen. I had a male sieze as he died from lung cancer, and my Bonzai who had seized during the night and was gone when I checked him next am, but do not know if it was the seizure that did it, or traumatic injury as he was bleeding from mouth and nose....sorry I can't help more...hope the little one gets better soon! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

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#15244 - 12/05/03 03:12 PM Re: seizuers [Re: ]
Judie Offline
Serious Glideritis

Registered: 10/25/01
Posts: 9173
Loc: Edwardsville, Kansas 66113
My guess is...the glider either has a bacterial or protozian issue. The calcium deficency that is often seen in a glider who is very ill is usually secondary as well as hypoglacemia which is low blood suger. Dehydration can be a problem also. If problem cannot be identified...then suggest a C&S as well as a UA.

So, treatment needs to be for primary issue. Usually, fecal float and cytology along with a UA can identify the problem. C&S should be done at this time if no unlying problem can be found as results will take an additional 4-7 days to identify a possible illness.

Bayatril is often given as it is a broad spectrum if bacterial infection with sub q fluids if dehydrated.

Metronidazole is usually given for a parasitic problem.

Calcium supplement such as Calcium Glubionate Syrup is usually perscribed if animal is have HLP like symptoms.

Sub q fluids for dehydration.

vets who do not know what the problem is...often will treat with the above method of drugs and usually this method is very successfull.

However, if illness is not known...always ask for C&S on first exam with a sick glider if nothing shows in the routine exam......since it takes severl days for the results. This is wise....if the med of choice is not effective within 4 or 7 days of initial treatment...a new drug then can be administered with help from the idenification of illness from the C&S. Otherwords ....C&S done in the beginning can save valuable time as to proper treatment of med.
_________________________
Web site: www.MyLittleGremlin.com

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#15245 - 12/05/03 03:21 PM Re: seizuers [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


I'm going to send Judie an email letting her know about your post. If a glider is already ill from a viral or bacterial infection, then, yes, they can be low on calcium, or losing calcium. We aren't sure why, but when a glider is ill, it seems to have a much higher need for the calcium. I would suggest the vet run the normal tests, as well as a c&s, and cytology, and treat accordingly, if the glider needs calcium, there are several supplements that can be given orally, he would need to get those from the vet.
Chey <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wave.gif" alt="" />

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#15246 - 12/05/03 04:19 PM Re: seizuers [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


OK EVERYONE, BRENDON IS GOING TO BE POSTING THE INFO IN A FEW MOMENTS AND HE IS ATTACHING THE LETTER FROM THE vet OF THE TEST RESULTS. THANKS FOR EVERYONES HELP CHRIS

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#15247 - 12/05/03 04:23 PM Re: seizuers [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Hey guys, my name is Brendan, and I own this poor little guy. Attached is a report from my vet. This is what happened, to the best of my knowledge:
I had them both out of the cage, feeding them little peices of fruit. This guy was standing on top of my Yaffa Blocks (plastic stackable storage crates) eating the fruit I gave him. After he was done, he began licking the top of the plastic crate he was standing on. I figured he was just eating a small fruit peice that he had dropped.
Very shortly after licking the plastic, he made a strange noise and began to have what appeared to be a seizure. His arms were shaking and he looked like he was having convulsions. This lasted approx 10 seconds.
After that, I put him back in his cage. Several times during the night, he made a type of hissing noise. This sounded like a distress call.
The following night, when I came home from work, I noticed his brother was out climbing around and he was not. I took him out of the blanket and realized that he was in very critical condition. He was very cold and not moving at all, very close to dying.
I immediately rushed him over to my 24 hour emergency vet. They gave him some sugar, heat and oxygen and he seemed to respond, literally within minutes. They kept him overnight, to observe his behavior. No further unusual behavior was observed.
The vet thinks that because I substituted gerber mixed juice blend (no yogurt) for the banana juice WITH yogurt, the gliders were not eating my BML mix. Instead they were only eating the fruits and worms I had been giving them, for serveral days. That's why they concluded a calcium deficiency.
In my opinion, I think he ingested something bad/poisinous off the top of that plastic. He had the seizure literally seconds after licking this thing. Also, there appears to be somethig sticky on here, maybe from a drink that had spilled on it.
I got him back from the vet this afternoon. Since then, I have given him some ensure, some licky treats and a new batch of BML (with the Gerber juice with Yogurt). He didn't want to eat the BML. But took the ensure and licky treats. He appears to be in good shape. Climbing, jumping and going on his exercise wheel.
When they wake up tonight, I'm going to feed them the BML and watch closely to see how much of it they eat. Thanks very much for your help and support. I appreciate it. I'll let you guys know how he is doing.
Brendan


Attachments
171653-Vet Report.JPG (34 downloads)


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#15248 - 12/05/03 04:41 PM Re: seizuers [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Hi again everyone, if someone could decifer that vet attachment for me I would appreciate it, I really want to know as much as possible about this little guy. thanks chris

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#15249 - 12/05/03 06:37 PM Re: seizuers [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Christian, I emailed you the vet report, I opened it in Microsoft Photo Editor, if you can't open it in that, try Paint. In MS Photo Editor, you should be able to enlarge to 100% and read it.
If I have time to transcribe it to this post later on I will for everyone to read.
Chey <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wave.gif" alt="" />

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#15250 - 12/05/03 06:39 PM Re: seizuers [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Hey guys, can you also advise me on this prescription for the Calcium Glubionate. The vet prescribed this as a means to raise this guys level of Calcium. My pharmacist did not have it. With the blizzard going on in NY, I'm not going to be able to get this until tomorrow. I gave him some Ensure with Calcium, as Christian directed me to. Should I still get the Calcium Glubionate, or will he be ok with just the Ensure with Calcium.

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#15251 - 12/05/03 06:55 PM Re: seizuers [Re: ]
Judie Offline
Serious Glideritis

Registered: 10/25/01
Posts: 9173
Loc: Edwardsville, Kansas 66113
You need to get the liquid calcium. It is perscription so vet will need to talk to your vet who is treating your glider. Call an exotic vet...one who treats reptiles and birds. They will have it. However...they will need to confirm with your vet that this animal is under treatment.
_________________________
Web site: www.MyLittleGremlin.com

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#15252 - 12/06/03 05:34 AM Re: seizuers [Re: ]
DeXien Offline
Glider Slave

Registered: 06/09/03
Posts: 1857
Loc: England, UK
(Just so you know, if you hover the cursor in the bottom right hand corner a small box will flash up with arrows going into its four corners. If you click that it will enlarge the image back to its original size.)
_________________________
Saffron -- OOP 7th April 2003-> 8th May 2013. RIP, sweetheart.

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#15253 - 12/06/03 09:26 AM Re: seizuers [Re: ]
Judie Offline
Serious Glideritis

Registered: 10/25/01
Posts: 9173
Loc: Edwardsville, Kansas 66113
I hope this little one is seen by a more knowledgable vet today.

From what I read...there was no basic tests done to determine if this glider had a bacterial or protozoian infection. As mentioned earlier...they have a way of depleating necessary calcium from the body. Low blood sugar will cause a glider to seize as well as lack of calcium.

The report only says the glider was treated for low calcium and low blood sugar and nothing is mentioned about having checked the glider for a bacterial or protozoian infection.

Take this glider to a vet this morning for the basic needed tests. The tests required.... fecal float and smear with a cytology. If nothing is seen...then a culture needs to be done. Take the number of a knowledgable vet with you in case the vet is not familiar with reading the test report and will have someone to help determine results as well as ratio of meds that will need to be given.
_________________________
Web site: www.MyLittleGremlin.com

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#15254 - 12/06/03 11:08 AM Re: seizuers [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


This is very frustrating, because it seems that most vets just don't know that signs of hypocalcemia can be caused by a bacterial or parasitic problem...therefore they don't run those tests right away as they should. Every time someone posts about seizures, shaking, or HLP like symptoms, there is NO mention of the vet running these basic tests... <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shakehead.gif" alt="" /> They have a little book with about a paragraph of info on suggies, and it doesn't say that underlying illness can cause symptoms of hypocalcemia, and that book is all the info some vets have on treating gliders...I wish there was some way to get the word out that when a glider is presenting these symptoms the first thing should be to run those tests and find the underlying cause of the problem! Because 2 weeks of eating the wrong kind of BML should NOT leave them hypocalcemic.

Brendan, I am very sorry that your glider is sick, and sorry I got off on a tangent there, this is just very common with vets, and most owners rely on the vets to know what tests to run and what the possible problems are. I really hope you can get your baby back into the vet and find out what the real problem here is. Don't become complacent because he is doing better, it can go downhill very quickly (the calcium, fluids, and sugar can make them perk up really quickly, but once they wear off you could be back where you started or even worse off)...and I'm sorry if I sound harsh...I just want you to know the truth so that you will be properly prepared and can take the proper course of action. Good luck.

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#15255 - 12/06/03 12:03 PM Re: seizuers [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


I must concur with Judie that a fecal float and smear with a cytology should be done to rule out possible intestinal parasitic and/or bacterial infection as some of the symptoms listed by the vet(weak, lethargic, dehydrated) can very well be secondary to intestinal parasitic/bacterial infection. Certain parasitic/bacterial microorganisms attach themselves to the lining of the wall of the small intestine where these microorganisms siphon off essential minerals, nutrients & vitamins thus preventing their absorption by the animal. This, in turn, can result in malnutrition, dehydration, low glucose and low calicum levels. I can easily see where the treatment rendered by the vet would improve a glider's overall condition very quickly even with an intestinal parasitic/bacterial infection existing. However, such improvement will be very short-lived if an intestinal parasitic/bacterial infection is present and left untreated. Best to have the testing done and if the results are positive get the appropriate medication started as soon as possible to be safe .

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#15256 - 12/06/03 01:02 PM Re: seizuers [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


You guys are the experts, so I'm definitely going to take your advice. I have an appointment this Tuesday @ 5:30pm, and I'm going to have both Gliders examined (Fecal float and smear with a cytology). I think I know which one had the seizure, but since I can't be 100% positive, I'm going to have both of them checked out. I got this vet's name off the Glidercentral vet list, and they said they should be ok to wait until Tue to have this test done. I'm going to monitor them very closely until then.
Thanks very much everybody who has given their advice, or just taken the time to look at my situation. I appreciate your help.

Brendan

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#15257 - 12/07/03 01:30 PM Re: seizuers [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Unfortunately, this poor little guy has passed away. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crying.gif" alt="" /> He looked like he was doing ok as of last night. This afternoon, I looked at him and noticted that he was again in very critical condition. I wrapped him up in a heating pad and wiped the snow off my car. By the time I came back to take him to the vet, he was gone.
I realize that it was a big mistake on my behalf not to take the advice of the moderators as well as the rest of you guys, and get the appropriate tests taken ASAP. I'm totally devastated that this has happened.

I have a vet appointment at 5:30 this Tue, with an exotic specialist. I want to have his brother checked out to make sure he is in good shape. After that, I'm going to decide what the best course of action is, to ensure the welfare of this other guy. I don't know whether I should raise this guy by himself, get another glider to be his companion, or maybe give this guy away to someone who knows better than I how to care for them.

First things, first. I want to have the appropriate tests taken to ensure that this guy is healthy. Can someone advise me on what tests I should have the vet perform. Is it still the Fecal float and cytology. Please let me know.
Thanks once again for your advice,help and support. I appreciate it.

Brendan

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#15258 - 12/07/03 01:37 PM Re: seizuers [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crying.gif" alt="" /> I am so sorry for your loss. I know what it's like to lose one of these lil angels. I'm sure he will be waiting for you at the rainbow bridge. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/heartpump.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/gliderangel.gif" alt="" />

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#15259 - 12/07/03 02:53 PM Re: seizuers [Re: ]
Judie Offline
Serious Glideritis

Registered: 10/25/01
Posts: 9173
Loc: Edwardsville, Kansas 66113
Oh, please do not be so hard on yourself. You did the best you could at the time. Problem comes when the vet rehydates sub q fluids and calcium the glider feels much better and vet does not realize that the underlying problem was not addressed. He has only treated the secondary cause and not the primary illness itself.

When a sick glider is not eating or drinking well due to being severly ill the animal will become dehydrated and often will have HLP like symptoms...vet treats sub q. Later....and often within a 24 hour window....little one usually will dehydrate out again and will crash. This is why it is important to take the glider back to the vet the next day if it is suffering from dehydration and calcium loss.

Learning how to sub q the glider with fluids per instructions from the vet is even better if one can do the sticks. This method of keeping the sick glider hydrated at home....can be done twice a day and usually prevents the rebounding of dehydration for a few days and gives much needed time for the antibiotic to kick in so to speak. Also, saves on vet fees and time being spent going back and forth to the vet.

Gliders on the whole are very healthy animals. It is just unfortunate....you are a new owner and have lost one. It is not necessary to have two gliders if you can give the time that is required on a daily basis to a lone glider. He will adopt you... so to speak... and you then will become his family. It the glider who has no contact and sits in his cage day in and day out...that a glider usually becomes depressed.

As to the diet previously fed..if the gliders were consuming the suggested amount of BML...the lack of yogurt in the juice would not cause the glider to be calcium deficent. I can honestly say this as I do not usually use it either and I own multi gliders who are on the BML diet plan.

So, have a fecal float and cytology done on the remaining glider. If he appears healthy that is a good sign...but he does need a wellness check since his brother just passed.

On a whole...gliders are very healthy. It is just unfortunate that you have lost one and so soon. I feel you you are already an awesome owner as you truly want what is best for the Sugar Glider.

Sending a (((((Big Hug))))).
_________________________
Web site: www.MyLittleGremlin.com

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#15260 - 12/07/03 10:25 PM Re: seizuers [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


I hope that you are still checking this post. I know that others will be sending you their condolences as I am doing right now.
I havent posted much but have been reading a lot. Unfortunately I dont post much when I dont have a problem You came to the right place and hopefully others will learn from this experience as well. Please do not be too hard onyour self. I know the guilt must be eating you up.
That is hard not to feel. Heck, I feel guilty just having a sugar glider for all of the ones who fall short. I feel terrible just owning one and that mine is not running free in the wild. But the best thing we can do is to do the best for them that we can and that is all we can do. They live pretty cushy lives with us. I wish someone would hold me and coddle me and feed me by hand. Doesnt that sound nice.
You will be awesome, and a little wiser for it too.
Faith Schexnayder

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#15261 - 12/08/03 01:12 PM Re: seizuers [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


I lost a glider too, and the more I learn since then, the more I think "if only I had known this... or if only I had done that..." The hardest part is knowing that some of the mistakes I made as a new owner obviously contributed in some way to the death of my glider, like not taking him to a vet right away when I got him, feeding a poor diet, etc. My emergency vet even gave me a medication that may be neurotoxic to gliders - and I gave it to him several times. But what else can you do? You must make a decision, and you try your hardest. You must recognize that you can only do the best you can with the knowledge you have. Your glider was loved by you, which is the most important gift you can give - because they know, somehow, even though you may not have had the chance to bond yet. My Roddie knew. He was timid, but he knew. Your little man did too - have faith. The more you read here, the more you learn, and the more effective your glider parenting will be. Soon you will feel more comfortable with your roll, and so will your suggie. Hang in there. You will be rewarded by kisses and bouncing and squeeky little chuckling noises, and someone will be so happy to see you every time you come to his cage. Don't give up! You are already on the right track. And there is no better place for your glider to be than in the hands of someone who cares about him as much as you do, and who is willing to learn.

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#15262 - 12/08/03 02:00 PM Re: seizuers [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


As many of you know brendon got the gliders from me...I felt it was very nice of him to call me before I found out on here this little guys sad fate. He is felling pretty bad about this whole situation but he did everything right. Unfourtunetly not all vets know what to do with gliders. I believe he is taking the other little guy to the vet tomorrow when someone with glider knoweledge will be thier.

I would like to thank everyone for their support for brendon, me and the little guys. Its really unfourtunate that this has happened to someone so new to gliders, I hope this doesnt scare you off, chris

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#15263 - 12/08/03 04:33 PM Re: seizuers [Re: ]
KattyM Offline
Serious Glideritis

Registered: 12/24/02
Posts: 9910
Loc: Phoenix, AZ
Oh, Brendan! We're sending glider hugs and kisses your way for you and your remaining wee one. Don't beat yourself up; you sound like you'll make an awesome glider parent! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/heartpump.gif" alt="" />
_________________________
Owned by my :grey: "Eight is Enough" colony:

2003: Hiroshi (M)
2009: Herbie (M)

:rbridge:
2002-2004: Keiko (F) and baby Tomoki (M)
2009: Sammy (F), Charlie (F), Murray (M)
2010: BJ (M)
My gallery

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#15264 - 12/08/03 05:39 PM Re: seizuers [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Thank you very much everyone for your support. It's nice to hear from other owners who know what this feels like. I'm still really devastated that I could not help this guy. Alot of people have told me that I'm being too hard on myself, but I just can't help it.

What bothers me the most is not the money that I spent, but the fact that this guy was the sweetest suggie that you would ever meet. Even the vet told me that he had never handled a glider this tame before. This guy was a real sweetheart.

So I have an appointment Tuesday with his brother, to make sure that he is ok. He seems to be healthy, but after what happened with the other guy, I don't want to take any chances.

I'll be sure to keep you guys informed of the test results on this guy. As always, thanks very much for your help and support.

Brendan


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