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#155256 - 10/10/06 12:07 PM Need Understanding of BML
Anonymous
Unregistered


OK need help understanding BML. confused My guys are doing fine on the BML diet. I read about the cal:p ratios and how to feed the BML diet. “????” Will it throw off the cal:p ratios if one night they don’t eat all the BML but eat all the fruit & veggies? Then the next night all the BML is gone but not the fruit. Then the next night BML and veggies are gone. ECT…. One more ???? jump
Do you have to feed all 4 veggies listed for BML every night? worried I’ve also read about mold in corn and only feeding grapes once in a while.

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#155262 - 10/10/06 12:31 PM Re: Need Understanding of BML [Re: ]
MizValorie Offline
Glider Addict

Registered: 04/13/06
Posts: 2579
Loc: Sherman, Texas
I'm not sure if them switching off like that is normal. dunno
I know some nights my girl wont eat something but its not everynight. As long as they are getting the one tablespoon of veggies each night I dont think it matters if it is all four veggies. This is my understanding. Correct me if I am wrong guys!
There is a big controversy about corn and grapes right now. I am still quite undecided about that.confused
_________________________
Valorie and our 10 fur children

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#155267 - 10/10/06 12:39 PM Re: Need Understanding of BML [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


I have two gliders, so here's my breakdown every night:
-1 cube of BML (roughly two tablespoons)
-2 tbsp of veggies (I use the frozen mix with corn, green beans, peas, and carrots. I actually started buying them separate and mixing them into equal portions since I can't find any with no salt.)
-1 tbsp of one of the fruits on the list.
-1 tbsp of a different fruit on the list.

Lately, I've noticed them eating more of it if I mix the BML with the fruits and veggies before serving. I believe the diet is designed to take into account that some nights they eat different.

The fungus in corn generally grows during storage in graineries or when it sits out (I'm referring to the use of corn cob bedding). Shouldn't be a problem with the frozen variety, as it's picked at its peak, then frozen, and I don't believe it can grow in those temperatures.

Grapes are sort of controversial because of the kidney thing. It's also my understanding that there is no actual scientific proof of this. The other problem is with tannins, however, I believe your greatest concentration is in the skin, and gliders (at least mine, and I believe most if not everyone on this board) do not eat the skin. Grapes get thrown in my mix maybe once a week.

Hope this helps.

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#155273 - 10/10/06 12:52 PM Re: Need Understanding of BML [Re: ]
KattyM Offline
Serious Glideritis

Registered: 12/24/02
Posts: 9910
Loc: Phoenix, AZ
Are you measuring out one tablespoon of each for each glider? And if you give treats during the day, are you deducting those from the dinner portion? (It's recommended to give the dinner goodies as treats.) Are you feeding mealies in the morning instead of the evening, if you're offering those? I'm just trying to figure out if they might be a bit full (to varying degrees) and eating what appeals to them most (for that night) and then not eating everything.

I would think a night or two here and there wouldn't make a difference, but if it's a long-term pattern, that might be problematic.

You don't have to feed all four veggies each night, just as you don't have to feed all of the allowed fruits each night. The extra calcium in the BML does compensate for the extra phosphorus in the corn, so if you never fed corn, that might again throw off the CA:P ratios. dunno

Seems like a Bourbon question to me.
_________________________
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• 2003: Hiroshi (M)
• 2009: Herbie (M)

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#155289 - 10/10/06 01:41 PM Re: Need Understanding of BML [Re: KattyM]
Anonymous
Unregistered


No it's not every night, only once in a while. I do try to mix different fruit & veggies every night so they don't get board with their food. The only treats are on the fruit & veggies list for BML, millies in the morring only @ 4:30am. I do take into account when fixing there dinner the treats they had that afternoon. They don't like the frozen veggies so I have to give them fresh. It's a big pain in the rear, but they are much healthier now on the BML diet. dance

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#155290 - 10/10/06 01:44 PM Re: Need Understanding of BML [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


If it's only once in a while, then I wouldn't worry about it at all. I'm sure you've had days when you've had next to no appetite, and others where you could eat just about anything put in front of you.

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#155300 - 10/10/06 02:08 PM Re: Need Understanding of BML [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


"Seems like a Bourbon question to me" Can I ask who is bourbon? Will bourbon help you with questions about BML. Will to much corn throw off the cal:p ratios. shock MORE ???????

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#155305 - 10/10/06 02:29 PM Re: Need Understanding of BML [Re: ]
Xglider Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 01/18/05
Posts: 11157
Loc: Tampa, FL
Bourbon is the “B” in BML, she is the one that modified the original Leadbeaters diet plan… you can PM her, she is a member here at GC, and she is more than willing to help out any one in the glider community!!!
_________________________
* ~ * John * ~ * Sorry store is closed at this time.. <br>
Link -> ~~ XtremeGlider ~~ Home of the original Re~set Toys! ~~ <br>
Oct 2012 update.. miss my gliders and my
glider family and think of my friends often!!!

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#155462 - 10/10/06 07:43 PM Re: Need Understanding of BML [Re: Xglider]
Xfilefan Offline
Serious Glideritis

Registered: 02/22/03
Posts: 8899
Loc: Jacksonville, FL
John is right, Bourbon (as in Bourbon's Modified Leadbeaters, or BML) is happy to help with questions. No, you don't have to feed all 4 every night, but mine usually get corn, peas, carrots, and frequently we put green beans (because they love the green beans and will ignore everything else, lol) in instead of carrots. Once a month they used to get a tiny baby spinach leaf, but after the Ecoli thing, that prob. won't happen again. Occ. we'll put in sweet potatoes, fresh cooked squash, or another veggie for some variety, but their day to day is the 3/4 above.

I had glider's refuse to eat BML for over 2 years, and she got them eating it without a problem.

The corn "mold" is aflatoxin-that is only an issue with dried corn that has been stored in granaries-fresh/frozen is okay.

Grapes are fine as long as they're washed and trimmed thoroughly-cut the end off after washing where the stem attached, cut the grape in half, then "core" it-you'll usually see a brown 'string' down the center-for ecoli or giardia, that's where it's most likely to be-get rid of that part. You'll end up with a V in the center of each half. Leave in halves, or cut each half in half to quarter it, and feed. Doing this, I've never had a problem with grapes. It's a bit of work, but worth a glider's health. HTH


Edited by Xfilefan (10/10/06 07:48 PM)
_________________________
Jen/Colin :bb: Commander Riker 12 16 02-10 04 12 you will be FOREVER missed :wfb: Sinbad, :wfb: Gabby, :grey: Baby, and :grey: Alley

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#155472 - 10/10/06 07:58 PM Re: Need Understanding of BML [Re: Xfilefan]
Anonymous
Unregistered


as far as veggies go do they have to be fresh veggies or can they be out of a can?
Or just frozen?

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#155473 - 10/10/06 08:00 PM Re: Need Understanding of BML [Re: Xfilefan]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Thanks everyone, the more I read about cal:p ratios and BML I just want to make sure what and how I'm feeding is right. I'll just keep reading here on GC, read there more info here than my brain can hold. thumb LOL agree

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#155475 - 10/10/06 08:04 PM Re: Need Understanding of BML [Re: Xfilefan]
pappy1264 Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 08/31/06
Posts: 11015
Loc: MA
My problem is mine HATE green beans! Not really thrilled with peas, either! They do love corn, but thought that was not a great thing for them, so I give only in small amounts. They tend to lean more to any type of melon, they do like carrots (as long as they are shaved...not too spoiled). They love english cucumbers. I am trying to give them a good, varied diet, that they will eat. Some nights they will finish off the BML, and eat just some of the fruits/veggies. Other times, they won't touch the BML, but all the fruits/veggies will be gone. AS I said before, the only real thing they will eat ANYTIME is mealies! Everything else, it depends on their mood/appetite at the moment, I guess.

_________________________
Timmy, Gidget(RIP), Bandit, Petey(RIP), Phoebe, Jake (RIP) Piper(RIP), Pru(RIP), Paige, Cole, Molly(RIP), Oliver, Wyatt, Roo(RIP), Romeo, Pennie, Mandy(RIP), Madison, Garth, Kikipoo, Stasia, Bella, Petunia(RIP), Helen, Sydney, Kizzy and Sweet Pea's mom,
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#155476 - 10/10/06 08:05 PM Re: Need Understanding of BML [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Dolph

I do know that you should not feed canned fruit or veggies. I think it is because of the salt but I could be wrong. If I am wrong please someone correct me please. BML diet say to use fresh or frozen.

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#155477 - 10/10/06 08:09 PM Re: Need Understanding of BML [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Xfilefan thanks for the tip on the grapes I didn't know that. I know these little butts are a lot of work but how can NOT love them.

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#155480 - 10/10/06 08:11 PM Re: Need Understanding of BML [Re: ]
Xfilefan Offline
Serious Glideritis

Registered: 02/22/03
Posts: 8899
Loc: Jacksonville, FL
You've got it half right smile. With veggies, they add salt (although I did get mine eating their carrots by starting with the unsalted canned ones-just make sure no salt added)...and they add a lot of sugars in the canned fruits.
_________________________
Jen/Colin :bb: Commander Riker 12 16 02-10 04 12 you will be FOREVER missed :wfb: Sinbad, :wfb: Gabby, :grey: Baby, and :grey: Alley

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#155526 - 10/10/06 09:15 PM Re: Need Understanding of BML [Re: Xfilefan]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Well I haven't given my babies any veggies as of yet because I wasn't sure of what to give them but I do give them frozen fruit which I thaw then I add some baby food fruit on top of it which they really love. Like applesauce or bananas then I sprinkle the top of it with sugar glider nectar

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#155571 - 10/10/06 10:37 PM Re: Need Understanding of BML [Re: ]
KattyM Offline
Serious Glideritis

Registered: 12/24/02
Posts: 9910
Loc: Phoenix, AZ
If your babies are picky about eating carrots, try the teeny baby carrots. They are sweeter. Mine go nuts over them when I'm eating them for a snack.

From this other post, Need Question answered FAST!, fresh as well as frozen corn could be a problem. Just be sure when buying fresh to shuck your own and not get the corn with the pretty pink stuff on the end. wink
_________________________
Owned by my :grey: "Eight is Enough" colony:

• 2003: Hiroshi (M)
• 2009: Herbie (M)

:rbridge:
• 2002-2004: Keiko (F) and baby Tomoki (M)
• 2009: Sammy (F), Charlie (F), Murray (M)
• 2010: BJ (M)
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#155755 - 10/11/06 11:14 AM Re: Need Understanding of BML [Re: KattyM]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Pappy have you tried fresh green beans and peas. My boys hate frozen peas so I buy English peas in the pod. I wash them and take the peas out of pod. The guy at Von’s said they were a little sweeter. My guys love them. Anyone know how much corn you should feed weekly if on the BML diet.

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#156161 - 10/11/06 10:47 PM Re: Need Understanding of BML [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


with all this talk of beans... i wonder... i was under the impression that beans gave gliders gas, which is not good since they cant pass gas... ??? ....

oh- for those of you who have veggie resistant gliders, try sweet peas or snow peas! mine love em!


Edited by KattyM (10/12/06 10:56 AM)

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#156165 - 10/11/06 10:52 PM Re: Need Understanding of BML [Re: ]
Srlb Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 10/30/03
Posts: 16757
Loc: St. Johns, Florida
FWGirlie, it is just a myth that gliders can not pass gas. I have heard several members say that yes, their gliders do indeed pass gas. Green beans are not the type of beans that cause gas however. The beans they talk about for that are more along the lines of lima beans, pinto beans and such.So yes, you can feed green beans. thumb
_________________________
Peggy
Critter Love
Critter Love® Diet Center

If you want to know what a person is like, watch how he treats others.

You'll never know what the outcome is if you don't step up and try.


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#156232 - 10/12/06 02:02 AM Re: Need Understanding of BML [Re: Srlb]
KattyM Offline
Serious Glideritis

Registered: 12/24/02
Posts: 9910
Loc: Phoenix, AZ
Yes, green beans, and if yours are picky about regular peas, try sugar snap peas. Mine used to love ripping them open and digging out the little peas. heart
_________________________
Owned by my :grey: "Eight is Enough" colony:

• 2003: Hiroshi (M)
• 2009: Herbie (M)

:rbridge:
• 2002-2004: Keiko (F) and baby Tomoki (M)
• 2009: Sammy (F), Charlie (F), Murray (M)
• 2010: BJ (M)
My gallery

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#156280 - 10/12/06 07:46 AM Re: Need Understanding of BML [Re: KattyM]
Anonymous
Unregistered


I just want to add what Bourbon has always told me regarding the veggies, and the fruits, even before she went "back to basics" and thought I would pass this information on....
There are specific veggies and specific fruits to the Back To Basics BML for a reason. (I don't want to start any more contraversies) but I have to speak up to those who feed anything other than what is listed and intended to be the actual diet as written:

Veggies: Green beans, carrots, corn and peas (Frozen and fresh are fine- but no canned)

Fruits: Watermelon, melon (like honeydew), grapes (seedless), apples, canteloupe, frozen blueberries and frozen pitted cherries

If you are feeding high iron veggies or high Vit C content items, such as; collards, sweet potatoes, and spinach... Oranges, orange juice,.... know that Vit C helps the body absorb iron, potatoes and sweet potatoes are a leading source of Vit C also strawberries, bell peppers, kiwi, tomatoes, broccoli, cauliflower and cabbage also contain Vit C. And there are others....

Feeding all of these high iron and Vit C veggies or fruits on top of each other and the BML diet as written... causes the system to absorb more iron into the system. Increasing the iron levels now an exuberant amount. The gliders systems are not setup to handle that extra overload of iron. It gets stored in the liver, causing the system to go into an overload. This "can" also cause kidney failures, UTIs, and a number of other internal issues including liver poisoning. None of this is documented but well thought out to POSSIBLY be a problem for gliders. Why take the chance?? I'm not.

Bourbon does not endorse feeding anything other than what is listed on the "Back to Basics" specified list of veggies and fruits....

Also, when you just start adding calcium to their diet, by feeding these higher in calcium veggies, please know that too much is just as bad as not enough. Too much calcium can harden their liver and is very hard on their little kidneys, you won’t see the damage, due to the damage being internal. You are really defeating the purpose of feeding the proven diet as written messing with the Ca:p ratios...

I must sound like a record, repeating all this, over and over again, and I apologize to those of you who have read this before.... I just think we all need to be careful in what is supposed to be the "diet as written" and giving out and recommending changes of the information other than what was intended, no offense to any of you posting.

Okay I'll shut up now!! lol!!

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#156331 - 10/12/06 09:38 AM Re: Need Understanding of BML [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Cycy, I think it's very valuable for you to repeat what you said. Many have not heard that explanation, and when they see it laid out clearly and concisely like that, it really helps them understand the "whys" behind what Bourbon is trying to do with the diet. Thank you for taking the time to type it out yet again. I had the exact same conversation with Bourbon a couple of months ago when I called her to talk about Jeepers's necropsy.

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#156334 - 10/12/06 09:46 AM Re: Need Understanding of BML [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


CYCY ??????? OK I'm really not to clear on how to feed the fruit & veggies. I do stick strickly to the BML diet as writen. OK ? do you feed nightly one veggie, one fruit or two veggies, two fruit. Can you mix them up different every night. Cycy one more ? please if they do not eat all there dinner should you still give them their milies in the morring or some fresh food. Some times I think my little butts are holding out for the good stuff. (milies) Any help on the cherries & blueberries mine hate the frozen ones. I guess I'm the one that needs the BML for DUMMIES page. LOL LOL

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#156346 - 10/12/06 10:12 AM Re: Need Understanding of BML [Re: ]
KattyM Offline
Serious Glideritis

Registered: 12/24/02
Posts: 9910
Loc: Phoenix, AZ
Okay, I'm not cycy, but first, let me clarify. My gliders used to like eating sugar snap peas but now they don't because I don't offer them, but for those of you with picky gliders who can offer a wider variety, try them. smile

You can offer a variety, within the approved lists, each night. You don't need to just pick one or two fruits or veggies. Each night I offer an organic veggie mix that includes carrots, peas, green beans, and corn. And each night as a "standard" (because I buy it, chop it up into little chunks they can hold, and freeze it) they get cantaloupe, honeydew, watermelon, some grapes. When I eat an apple during the day, they'll get some (they insist) and that fruit comes out of their portion for that night.

You don't have to offer the mealies at all; they are optional (despite what your gliders may say). You can try that. Also, try putting just the food they're not eating in the cage first. Then, later, put in the other food. Gliders, like kids (well, me, too) tend to go for the tasty stuff they like first (like dessert), and when they fill up, they don't care that they haven't eaten enough of their good dinner, or eaten it at all. cycy does have great tips on how to encourage them to eat all their food. thumb

Have you tried just putting the frozen cherries and blueberries out to thaw a bit? It won't take long, especially if you cut them up smaller.
_________________________
Owned by my :grey: "Eight is Enough" colony:

• 2003: Hiroshi (M)
• 2009: Herbie (M)

:rbridge:
• 2002-2004: Keiko (F) and baby Tomoki (M)
• 2009: Sammy (F), Charlie (F), Murray (M)
• 2010: BJ (M)
My gallery

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#156360 - 10/12/06 10:37 AM Re: Need Understanding of BML [Re: KattyM]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Lol!! Katty!!

Suggieboys, Katty's right, Bourbon's back to basics feeds all the veggies each night.... (corn, green beans, peas and carrots), just as she does, now, they may not eat each one each and every night but at least you should offers the and that's what I do, too.

Fruits are rotated as Katty also stated. You can also mix them up. I may offer two choices one night and one choice the next... three on another night and one on the next... I vary the fruits and they seem to really appreciate that... the only thing with all my suggies is I find little purple prints on things the morning after the blueberry food fights, heheh!

I also agree that the cherries and blueberries seem to be a challenge for mine too, but I add something like the juice of one grape squeezed on top the cherries or take and squish (sp.) a piece of watermelon or canteloupe on top of the blueberries, (but never fails, mine still make a mess with those fun little blueberries!)

Also, if you feel they are 'holding out' for those morning mealies, be strict and just give "one" and I mean one and ONLY one to each suggie that is being difficult, I promise, they will get the idea.
Let me tell you another trick about the feeding BML, it' srather long, but it does work, I promise:

You must only offer your suggie(s) one or two "pieces" of veggies, (like two peas, two pieces of corn, a piece of carrot,) along with 2 small pieces of fruit, and I mean small, along with 1/3 of the BML that you would normally offer! And that's it on the first night. No Treats, No Yoggies, No yogurt. You can feed each glider "one" mealworm in the morning only !
Every night, you need to increase the BML, but only a tiny bit each night... but not the veggie or fruit amounts.
1st night: feed the above mentioned amount
2nd night: same thing
3rd night: increase the BML only (Not the veggies or the fruit)
4th night: the same as 3rd
5th night: increase the BML again, (Not the veggies or the fruit)
6th night: the same as 5th...
In other words you are increasing the BML NOT the veggies or the fruit, and believe me it DOES work. He/she will eat it, and remember (and this is important!) no more snacks or yogurt or treats. Again, he/she needs the calcium and vitamins in the BML mix. AND there is yogurt in the BML, so he/she really doesn't need any extra yogurt.
Okay so you get him/her up to eating his/her share of the BML,....
Now what you want to do is: s-l-o-w-l-y increase the veggies and fruit like a piece of each, each night at a time, that way you will begin to see what he/she can and will eat well for you. When you notice he/she is eating less BML again, decrease the veggie/fruits the next night and keep it like that.

Once you begin to see a definite pattern that they continue to eat good, then you may increase their morning mealies, and I know all this sounds sooo terrible, but they are SO much like little children, you really have to put your foot down for their own good.

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#157010 - 10/13/06 06:19 PM Re: Need Understanding of BML [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Katty & Cycy I just read the BML diet again and it said, “insects should be part of their diet”. I only feed mealies, they get 3-4 each day. I thought that they had to have them if on the BML diet. I see that some people don’t feed mealies. Sorry for all the questions, but I read this & that about BML diet and I was getting confused. dunno Cycy I printed out what you wrote on feeding BML diet, took it to work and had the lady in our graphics dept. BLOW it up real big grin (no joke) now I have it hanging on my fridge. Going to give it a try. I read a lot of threads that you and Katty have wrote and you both seem to know a lot about this BML diet. I appreciate your patience with all the questions. I’ve only had my twin boys about five months. There is more than meets the eye with these little fuzz butts. But ya got to LOVE them. thanks

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#157025 - 10/13/06 08:26 PM Re: Need Understanding of BML [Re: ]
minkasmom Offline
Serious Glideritis

Registered: 11/08/04
Posts: 5965
Loc: Northeast Indiana
Have faith, Suggieboys! grin After awhile, this will become "second nature" to you & you'll find yourself able to put their suppers together half-asleep roflmao I can actually mix BML without glancing at the recipe after adding every ingredient cool

I hope that one day you get to meet Bourbon. She is a no-bull, down-to-earth, here's-the-truth-it's-your-choice-to-listen-or-not type of person that obviously leaves a LASTING IMPRESSION on you after you've been sent on your way. She's talked to me for a few HOURS, too, and what I've learned from her has been a great inspiration to me...not only with the "new" formula for mixing BML, but with the whole "back to basics" diet. My babies are a "work in progress", and I'm anxious to see where we'll be in another 2 weeks or so.
_________________________
Minkasmom (Papillon Kisses)
Slave to:
28 gliders,
5 cats,
and ONE husband (can't handle two, lol!)
gangel Remembering all my lost loves cry

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#157030 - 10/13/06 08:45 PM Re: Need Understanding of BML [Re: minkasmom]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Thanks for the pat-on-the-back ;)minkasmon. I like the way Cycy spells it out for you no BULL. I'll never give up. Love my little butts to much. I would really like to meet Bourbon someday. She sound like a real suggie of a person. dance

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#157156 - 10/14/06 02:16 AM Re: Need Understanding of BML [Re: ]
KattyM Offline
Serious Glideritis

Registered: 12/24/02
Posts: 9910
Loc: Phoenix, AZ
I'm not an expert on BML; I wouldn't even say I know a lot about it. The true expert is, of course, Bourbon (the "B" in BML). I only know what has worked for me, and what I've myself read on this board.

I know it must be confusing when the page we refer you to says one thing, and we're advising another. The BML page is being revised, and hopefully when that happens, what we say and what you see will be in synch (or I'll switch what I'm saying tounge ).

It is my understanding, though, that the mealies, unlike with some other diet plans, are not required as a protein source. The BML provides the protein with the chicken baby food and egg in the recipe. Mealies are fattening, so if you have any chunky monkeys in the house, that would be the first thing I'd either cut back on or eliminate (much to your suggie's chagrin).
_________________________
Owned by my :grey: "Eight is Enough" colony:

• 2003: Hiroshi (M)
• 2009: Herbie (M)

:rbridge:
• 2002-2004: Keiko (F) and baby Tomoki (M)
• 2009: Sammy (F), Charlie (F), Murray (M)
• 2010: BJ (M)
My gallery

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