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#16086 - 12/30/03 02:22 PM Lumpy Jaw
Anonymous
Unregistered


[:"CC6699"] Okay, I tell new people about the risk of Lumpy Jaw, but I just realized something. I have only heard of one case of Lumpy Jaw? I know there are plenty of people that use pelleted food and cat food, I had 2 rescues come in, Bandit who lived 2 and a half years on pelleted eucalyptus and gerbil food, and Brandie, who was brought up on cat food and pellets, and neither of them have Lumpy Jaw. I know that not every glider who eats pelleted food will get Lumpy Jaw, but what other known cases are out there? Also, is there any kind of proof that shows hard foods and pellets cause Lumpy Jaw?

I am just asking, because I have been answering people the same way everyone else does, but I have never actually had any proof. Thanks! [/]

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#16087 - 12/30/03 03:53 PM Re: Lumpy Jaw [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


I don't know if this will put your doubts to rest and I am sure someone will have more information than I do but here is what I have.

The Gross Morbid Anatomy of Diseases of Animals
</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />
Necrotic stomatitis
Necrotic stomatitis a/w Fusobacterium, Bacteroides, Actinomyces, others
Very common in macropods, aspiration pneumonia is fatal sequel.
"lumpy jaw"
Sporadic cases seen in zoo perrisodactylids and artiodactylids
One outbreak in a colony of prairie dogs

<hr /></blockquote><font class="post">

Macropods are marsupials such as kangaroos, wallabies, bettongs, pademelon and potoroos.

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#16088 - 12/30/03 03:58 PM Re: Lumpy Jaw [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


[:"CC6699"] Thanks Candice, for the info! Okay, so, Lumpy Jaw is an actual disease, but how did we come to the conclusion that hard pelleted food is the cause? [/]

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#16089 - 12/30/03 04:00 PM Re: Lumpy Jaw [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


I know pellets are the cause of lumpy jaw in rabbits.


Edited by Candiflip (12/30/03 04:01 PM)

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#16090 - 12/30/03 04:17 PM Re: Lumpy Jaw [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


[:"CC6699"]Really? I didn't know that. But that is weird, a rabbits diet consists of mainly pelleted food, with hay and oats daily, alfalfa once a week, but a rabbit is not a marsupial, I believe they are part of the rodent family? Which most rodent's diets are consisted of pelleted food and their jaws are made for eating diets like these?

So how can we say that Lumpy Jaw is caused in Marsupials because they ARENT supposed to eat pelleted food, meanwhile the disease is found in Rabbits who ARE supposed to eat pelleted food? [/]

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#16091 - 12/30/03 04:45 PM Re: Lumpy Jaw [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


The article I read about lumpy jaw and rabbits must of been wrong or outdated because my vet told me that a rabbit can not get lumpy jaw. They can only get abscesses and cysts in the mouth.

Sorry to have confused or upset you!

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#16092 - 12/30/03 04:47 PM Re: Lumpy Jaw [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


[:"CC6699"]lol no, you havent upset me, I am just asking questions as they pop into my head <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/roflmao.gif" alt="" /> [/]

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#16093 - 12/30/03 04:56 PM Re: Lumpy Jaw [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


[:"CC6699"]But I did look at the definition of Lumpy Jaw, also known as acute Actinomycosis.

"Actinomycosis is a chronic infection, commonly of the face and neck, that produces abscesses and open draining sinuses." http://health.allrefer.com/health/actinomycosis-info.html

So that would mean, if rabbits get abscesses, they can get Lumpy Jaw, wouldn't it? Or is it different because the causes might be different?

I have only seen one or two websites that say rabbits can get lumpy jaw. [/]

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#16095 - 12/30/03 05:13 PM Re: Lumpy Jaw [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


[:"CC6699"]Tom, do you have a link to the glider health site that I can look at, that describes these cases? [/]

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#16097 - 12/30/03 05:53 PM Re: Lumpy Jaw [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


I know that Bourbon has a link and you can read some stories about Lumpy Jaw. Very sad.! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/heartpump.gif" alt="" />

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#16098 - 12/30/03 05:53 PM Re: Lumpy Jaw [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


[:"CC6699"]Okay, I have checked out the results I found in the Real Stories section. I know that Lumpy Jaw has to do with an abscess on the jaw which has to be drained. Zoeleeto said something about that, but I believe her case was caused due to a wound, which commonly causes abscesses. Glideroo has a case, but it doesn't state what the Lumpy Jaw was caused from (I realize the post was very sad, I don't mean to bring back any horrible memories, I am sorry if bringing this up does <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> ).

If anyone knows of any cases or proof of Lumpy Jaw that has been caused by pelleted food and not wounds or injury, please let me know, this intrigues me! [/]

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#16099 - 12/30/03 05:57 PM Re: Lumpy Jaw [Re: ]
Charlie H Offline
Glider Slave

Registered: 11/13/03
Posts: 1659
Loc: Wallis Texas
That is a good question! I have always believed that the dry pelleted food would cause lumpy jaw from what others have posted. Dogs and cats are not the same as gliders, but the pelleted food is supposed to be ideal for cleaning their teeth. Have also heard the pelleted food would cause compaction but do not know if this is true. These things have probably been discussed in the past. Maybe we should do a search and see what others have had to say in previous threads.
Charlie H
_________________________
Rescue & Rehabilation
http://www.angelfire.com/tx/glidertree/
[]glidertree@toast.net[/]

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#16100 - 12/30/03 06:04 PM Re: Lumpy Jaw [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


[:"CC6699"]Charlie, you bring up a good point about teeth cleaning. They need bugs because of their exoskeletons, and they chew on hard tree branches and bark because that is what they do in the wild, so you would think that hard pelleted food wouldn't really be all that much different...

I am going to take a look at Bourbon's site and see what I can find. [/]

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#16101 - 12/30/03 06:24 PM Re: Lumpy Jaw [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


[:"CC6699"]Okay, I just took a look at Bourbon's site, the Real Stories section about Lumps. There aren't any hard pelleted food related lumpy jaw cases in there either. Most of them are injury cases and the ones that don't mention injury, don't mention hard pelleted food and had vets who did not know the causes of the abcsesses. There was one case of swelling due to eating a Ficus. Other than that, most or all abcsesses were drained and the gliders were treated with Baytril, then recovered. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/nixweiss.gif" alt="" />

I have also been doing a search on GC for threads on Lumpy Jaw. I have come across plenty of threads concerning it, but none of which diet has anything to do with. I have even come across threads of gliders being on BML and soft foods and getting Lumpy Jaw, and none of gliders being on a pelleted diet.

[:"red"] Edited -- Okay! I found ONE case of Lumpy Jaw that has to do with pelleted food, and this person's vet said that it was probably due to the pelleted diet the glider was on two years prior to getting the abscess. This is Glideroo's case. [/]

Okay, so now we have one suspected case of Lumpy Jaw from pelleted food.

[:"CC5599"]Do we have any studies, research, or other proof that hard pelleted food causes Lumpy Jaw? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/nixweiss.gif" alt="" /> [/]

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#16102 - 12/30/03 06:53 PM Re: Lumpy Jaw [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Since it seems you have exhausted GC's supply of information on Lumpy Jaw, have you tried just a web search? Maybe contacting some professional care places and posing the questions you have? Like a Zoo, or a vet who has alot of glider experience and could maybe help you out. Just a thought..

Take care <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

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#16103 - 12/30/03 06:58 PM Re: Lumpy Jaw [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


[:"CC6699"]I have found some info on it, but I am not just looking for something that simply states "hard pelleted food is bad because it causes Lumpy Jaw", I am looking for proof that it does, I am looking for research, scientific studies, anything like that. I will keep looking on the web to see what I can find, but I figured that since so many of GC mods and members tell people pelleted food is bad because if causes Lumpy Jaw, that you might know where you heard it from or why you believe it. I believed it because everyone here told me, but if everyone was giving out this info just because they heard it? Pelleted diets could have a horrible rep with Lumpy Jaw just because of one case, because of one vet, and now over 6,000 members on one board and many other people passing by, believe it too. I am just saying that it would be nice to see the proof. [/]

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#16104 - 12/30/03 07:03 PM Re: Lumpy Jaw [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Lumpy Jaw is caused from not natural foods given to marsupials ect, kangaroos, sugar gliders,and other marsupials, <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/littleglider.gif" alt="" /> [:"blue"] [/] kangaroos can get it from yeasty foods, and ones that are in captivity as pets that are not given there natural foods. cats biscuites that are given frequently to sugar gliders can get lumpy jaw, it has been known in australia from the food that is not natural to them as these are very hard and are not there natural food. you must try and stay as close as possible to there natural diet that they would have in the wild, as these little guys do not get cat biscuites in the wild lumpy jaw is mainly found in marsupials. i hope this helps a little...i was a wild life carer in australia for the sick and injured animals

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#16105 - 12/30/03 07:06 PM Re: Lumpy Jaw [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


This is what I have always been told...since gliders naturallly suck and spit their food, swallowing pretty much only the "liquid" from the food....that having to actually crunch down to chew their food can cause blockages in the salivary glands...compaction which in turn leads to abcess or "lumpy jaw". Gliders in the wild do chew branches, but how much do we know of where they actually bite the branch, take a piece in their mouth, and chew it with the intent of eating it? I would think since they are designed to eat the way they do, that they are mainly nibbling at branches in the wild and not actually eating it as we would compare it to eating a hard food. I do not know of any case studies about it tho. Good luck. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

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#16106 - 12/30/03 07:13 PM Re: Lumpy Jaw [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


[:"CC6699"] Okay, thanks for the help you guys <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> Bonzai, the way you described Lumpy Jaw is the exact same thing I heard. Now I am looking that Lisa's site from SunCoast and it says...

"Lumpy jaw is caused by bacteria normally found in the mouths of healthy animals. The bacteria can enter through wounds in the mouth, which can be caused by hard or coarse feed. Lumpy jaw may interfere with the animal's ability to eat; other than the swelling on the jaw, animals may appear healthy. This condition can ultimately lead to spreading of harmful bacteria and even death."

So is it that the hard pelleted foods arent actually clogging salivary glands, but can possibly cut the inside of a gliders mouth, creating a wound to form an abscess?

Kanga, did you see many Lumpy Jaw cases in Australia? Any in gliders? And if so, what were they from?

What confuses me is that if Lumpy Jaw can be caused by pelleted food, how come there arent any documented cases of it? Or how come gliders who are on the BML and other soft diets are getting it with no wounds to be found? Could it be that Lumpy Jaw can not only be caused by wounds, but spark up randomly, no matter what the consistancy of the food is?[/]

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#16107 - 12/30/03 07:57 PM Re: Lumpy Jaw [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


there is quite a bit of it in our marsupials, but has mainly been caused through giving them the wrong foods as i said before its mainly when humans try to change there diets and give them what they do not usually eat which includes cats biscuites there jaws are not use to these hard treats.... as for branches they actually stip them they do this for there teeth and to get sap. i have seen a few cases but all have mainly been through human interaction in trying to feed them the wrong things. i am going to try and get in touch with a friend of mine down there to get some more information for you guys... its alright to suppliment them a little with other foods now and then but it is best to stick to there natural diet. if i cant get the information tonight i will post it when i get it.in nearly all our cases down home the animals have not survived as it stops them from eating and is very painfull

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#16108 - 12/30/03 08:00 PM Re: Lumpy Jaw [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


[:"CC6699"] Thanks SO much for the info Kanga!! I look forward to hearing more from you! [/]

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#16109 - 12/30/03 08:29 PM Re: Lumpy Jaw [Re: ]
Karin Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 09/06/01
Posts: 11583
Loc: Sycamore Illinois
My vet is actually the one who told me about Lumpy Jaw, when he questioned my diet choice at our first well vet visit <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumb.gif" alt="" />. He also discussed HLP...he's been seeing glider's for 12+ years.

Karin
_________________________
Miss Lily and Bud
Prada and Armani
Tessa, Deuce and Cami

Tira and Misu angel Deja and Vu

Glider Daydreams



"Life is not about waiting for the storm to pass...It is about learning to
dance in the rain!"

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#16110 - 12/30/03 09:12 PM Re: Lumpy Jaw [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


ok this is what i have so far
Disease filarioid nematode worm, Pelecitus roemeri found in the connective tissue; lumpy jaw caused by bacterium Fusobacterium necrophorum *
Lack of Nutrition particularly in young animals that don't have body reserves
Narawntapu National Park
Though still wild, most animals are used to the presence of humans, Wallabies and other animals can get a severe disease called ‘lumpy jaw’ if fed processed food.
Feeding wildlife
Marsupials Eating processed foods can cause lumpy jaw (bony growths) which can lead to a slow and painful death. ok im going to get more about this tommorrow <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/littleglider.gif" alt="" /> i have some more info coming.

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#16111 - 12/30/03 10:07 PM Re: Lumpy Jaw [Re: ]
princessmegi Offline
Serious Glideritis

Registered: 11/21/03
Posts: 6894
Loc: NW Missouri
WOW...I checked this a few hours ago and there was only one page of posts, now there are 3! I guess glider owners are nocturnal as well. LOL. off the subject, but I thought it was funny.
Megi
_________________________

"My doctrine is this: that if we see cruelty or wrong that we have the power to stop, and we do nothing, we make ourselves sharers in the guilt." ~ Anna Sewell, English Novelist

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#16112 - 12/31/03 12:09 AM Re: Lumpy Jaw [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Edited because all that information was copyrighted.

Here is a link to that person website with all the same information,
Glider University Medical Reference


Edited by Candiflip (12/31/03 12:40 AM)

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#16113 - 12/31/03 08:18 AM Re: Lumpy Jaw [Re: ]
Bourbon Offline
Serious Glideritis

Registered: 04/01/99
Posts: 5333
Loc: Bee-Bopping round SnakePit USA
Kanga, I am aware of your history in australia, wildlife rehabber was not anywhere close.

now as for the lumpy jaw, I will hunt you down the link for a story from a woman who had recieved her glider due to reoccuring lumpy jaw.
http://www.gliderhealth.com/realstories/illnessdesease%20.html#lumps look for alicia, you can email her if you wish.

yes it is an abcess , yes it may be caused by injury, and yes all the above "except the processed foods", are accurate, including the hard foods.

okay the term "lumpy jaw" is a general term, it is often used because that is the symptoms that show up. they are abscesses, so yes do a search there on abcesses look in face or jaw or chin.

now how lumpy jaw happenes is as Bonsai stated with the hard foods, could they be injuring themselves , yes that is possible, their teeth are used for compression, not for chewing, and with hard foods, .. hmm lets see if I can explain this..

when a glider takes a piece of hard food, let's use dog food, they scrape the hard food with their teeth, the hard pieces are swished around in their mouths to allow the bacteria for the salvory glands to aid in the breaking up of it, then they suck out the moisture.
evidence of their eating habiits can be seen, with everything they eat, the pulp from the chicken baby food in the BML is spit out, if you offer a small piece of cooked chicken, watch them closely while they eat it, you will see them swish it back abd forth in their mouth, then hear them suck to get out the moisture, you will notice what they spit back out is just a dehydrated version of what you gave them.

so now why is the hard foods different than the chicken? well the hard foods are processed with things called "binders", which is used to hold the food together, different companies use different things, Briskys uses clay and product that is very common in pet feeds. now needless to say that through compression and dehydration, the hard foods form a "pasty" substance.. again another experiment

take a pice of dry food, add moistrure to it.. squeeze out the moisture with your fingers, that is what is left, a paste. that paste can clog the salvory glands. can the swishing around also cause an injury, sure, the fact is, it is an infection, the feeding of hard foods, promotes lumpy jaw. not all gliders get it, but the possibility exists at a much higher rate than one is led to believe.

I did have a problem with Baybe a few times with the lumpy jaw, once was because the joey had scratched her on the outside it was evident. it got infected, the swelling was above her jaw on the top part of her face. it had to be lanced and drained, and she was given anti-biotics for the infection. now the other times, it was due to the fact I was offereing her the pet pro happy glider, I spoke with Jim regarding this, each time I gave it to her, she got the lumpy jaw on the underside of her jaw, the swelling extended to the top of her jaw. She is susceptable to it. He informed me to soak the food overnight in the frig before offering it to her. I did that and it was okay, I tried again just to be sure it was the dry food, sure enough, she got it again. the symptoms usually show up in a week or less. I fed the happy glider while I was traveling or as an emergency when I was out, not often and therefore easy for me to see the cause.
_________________________
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SGGA

CustomCruiser

BML

Sugar Glider Genetic Project

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#16114 - 12/31/03 10:17 AM Re: Lumpy Jaw [Re: ]
Charlie H Offline
Glider Slave

Registered: 11/13/03
Posts: 1659
Loc: Wallis Texas
I realize that it is difficult to compare sugar gliders to dogs and cats. But I can't help but wonder why the pelleted food does not cause problems with them. It would seem that the rough material would cut the inside of their mouths the same as a sugar glider. Also the presence of clay in the mixture should be a threat for compacting in their salivary glands as well.
Charlie H
_________________________
Rescue & Rehabilation
http://www.angelfire.com/tx/glidertree/
[]glidertree@toast.net[/]

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#16115 - 12/31/03 11:36 AM Re: Lumpy Jaw [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


I think the main thing there is the difference in teeth, in a dog or cat, the teeth are made for ripping and crunching of bones, rending of flesh, etc...a carnivore.

Gliders teeth are made for piercing and compression when they masticate, they are not carnivores, more like omnivores...eating both vegetation and small animals such as lizards and baby birds, whose bones are not that hard as a "meat" animal's would be.

I would also suspect that the saliva in each animal contains some enzyme particular to that animals digestion and salivary needs....

All above is NOT "fact", just logical to me....I may be wrong...it won't be the first time..lol.

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#16116 - 12/31/03 11:44 AM Re: Lumpy Jaw [Re: ]
Srlb Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 10/30/03
Posts: 16758
Loc: St. Johns, Florida
Ok what about this?? I may be way off here but I am going to throw in something for all to think about concerning lumpy jaw....

If lumpy jaw is because of an abcess, anyone that has ever had one themselves know it USUALLY starts off from a cavity right? well on the diet page with the responses from the australia zoos they say that too much fruit and sweets can cause cavities, well maybe just maybe the lumpy jaw IS caused by an abcess and that would be because our babies have a cavity??? maybe the pellet food and any other thing that is hard just aggravates it just like if we have a toothache, doesnt matter what we eat it still aggravates it? just something that ran across my mind.
Any comments??
_________________________
Peggy
Critter Love
Critter Love® Diet Center

If you want to know what a person is like, watch how he treats others.

You'll never know what the outcome is if you don't step up and try.


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#16117 - 12/31/03 02:18 PM Re: Lumpy Jaw [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


[:"CC6699"]Peggy, that is a very very good question. I am glad to see you took info from that other thread and brought it here! I have read, that for most lumpy jaw cases, the vet looks for an Abscess under a tooth, but sometimes doesn't find one. Hopefully someone will come along and answer you, I am interested in what is said.

About the sucking and the glands. If it is so easy to get stuff into their salivary glands, how come peices of the hard shells of crickets, mealies, grasshoppers, and other bugs, don't get stuck in there? I know that they eat bugs in the wild, so arent they are used to adapting their mouths to eat the hard shells of these bugs? Also, in the wild, they must catch bigger and tougher bugs than the little dinky crickets we give them in captivity. I definatly know I can hear them chewing on those things, I definatly know I can hear them crunching. And Gliders have something like 40 some odd teeth. Why do they have so many teeth if they werent adapted to eat anything hard?

Bonzai, what you said makes perfect sense, but what about when they rip apart those pinkies? It sure looks like they have flesh tearing abilities to me! *shivers*

And the bones in birds and reptiles, I am sure they are just as hard as pelleted food, what keeps bone from getting stuck in their glands. Doesn't that also show that they ARE adapted to eating tough, hard materials?[/]

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