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#175328 - 11/22/06 02:43 PM Is joey too small?
tbull Offline
Glider Addict

Registered: 10/04/05
Posts: 3884
Loc: Wyoming
I'm hoping I am just being over protective AGAIN, but.... Today when I was walking past the cages, Storm (Dad) came out to say hi. Their 1 day OOP male was on his back! He was falling off and I got him just in time. Probably scared poor Storm to death, but I caught the baby. I thought he looked small, so I weighed him and he is between 9 and 10 grams. But he looked shiveled up, so I checked his tummy and it was empty. I hurried and tried to get Lilo (Mom)to take him back. Their bigger girl was half in and half out of her pouch and the little guy couldn't get back in. I warmed some puppy milk and fed him some. He lapped it up like crazy. I made sure mom was close and could see him the whole time. She totally ignored him.

I tried again to get him in her pouch with no luck. Since I was home alone, I put mom and the joey in my sissy and headed to the vet's office. They took us right in a room, so they could help me hold mom to get the joey back in her pouch, but when I opened the sissy, the big girl was all the way in and the boy was half in. I assume he is nursing now.

Sorry this is a long story, but from these pictures, do you think he is too small? Also how often should I bug mom to check on him?

Also if he doesn't catch up to his sister soon, should I suppliment him or the girl. I have heard both. Suppliment the little one to catch up and suppliment the big one so there is more mom's milk for the little one?


Attachments
4479-Liloboy1day.jpg (117 downloads)
4480-Lilo'sboy1dayOOP.jpg (141 downloads)

_________________________
T~
www.lovegliders.com

** Meddle not in the affairs of Dragons, for
you are crunchy and taste good with catsup **

*Proud to forever be a Boo-Boo and BJ Fan!*


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#175335 - 11/22/06 03:04 PM Re: Is joey too small? [Re: tbull]
Dancing Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 09/10/04
Posts: 22746
Loc: 80 acres of paradise in KS
T,
I've had joeys that small and they scared me half to death. Duncan and Blake were just 6 grams each when they came oop. They were both rejected. I wasn't able to save Blake but Duncan is wonderful. If you are finding the little guy with an empty tummy and he will willingly eat for you, I would go ahead and feed him.

How much does the little girl weigh? If she is quite a bit more than the boy, you may have to take over feeding the boy. Or you can take out the little girl for short time periods so that he can get in to nurse without the competition.

I would weigh them both at the same time every day and keep track of their weights. If he isn't gaining or if he looses any, then take over feeding.

It could be that mom just isn't makeing enough milk for both and as most things in nature, only the strongest will survive. However, you have the opportunity to supliment feed to help him gain his strength. You may only need to supliment feed for a week or so until they get caught up in size.
_________________________
620-704-9109
Judge not until you have walked in their shoes and lived their lives. What you see online is only part of the story.

I could have missed the pain
But I'd of had to miss the dance


The soul would have no rainbow if the eyes had no tears.

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#175358 - 11/22/06 03:43 PM Re: Is joey too small? [Re: Dancing]
myangelbear77 Offline
Glider Slave

Registered: 01/29/05
Posts: 2258
Loc: Homestead, FL
How much older is his big sis?I know there can be joeys of different ages but is it possible big sis should be weanable or is she just a couple weeks older? I would supplement and pull bib sis if she is not old enough to be pulled completly.
_________________________
Be the kind of person your dog thinks you are.


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#175369 - 11/22/06 04:30 PM Re: Is joey too small? [Re: myangelbear77]
Anonymous
Unregistered


heres alink with some pics of joeys to give you an idea of there size!!

http://bmxglider.tripod.com/ogujoeys.html

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#175371 - 11/22/06 04:32 PM Re: Is joey too small? [Re: tbull]
Judie Offline
Serious Glideritis

Registered: 10/25/01
Posts: 9173
Loc: Edwardsville, Kansas 66113
Since little boy does not have hair on his legs he is a little early. It is normal for babies to come and go in thier mother's pouch at this stage.

Would not be trying to put him back into his mother's pouch. All that does is stress her out.

10 grams is small but only a couple of grams shy of being normal size. If tummy is empty... then supplement him along perhaps every eight hours.
_________________________
Web site: www.MyLittleGremlin.com

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#175372 - 11/22/06 04:36 PM Re: Is joey too small? [Re: myangelbear77]
tbull Offline
Glider Addict

Registered: 10/04/05
Posts: 3884
Loc: Wyoming
They both the same age. I watched them both be born, and they only came OOP today. But she is alot bigger than him and has a better color. Probably because he was shiveled and dark. No bite marks or anything, mom was just kind of ignoring him and not helping him into her pouch, and Dad, Aunty Winter and her joey were sleeping in another pouch. The girl is always moving around while nursing, so maybe she just knocked him off and they will do Ok now that he is latched back on. Mom is not comfortable in a bonding pouch, she is always happier just sitting on my shoulder, so it is going to be hard to keep checking on him. I have to actually pull the sleeping pouch out to see inside.

I am hanging a hammock across the cage now, in case he falls off anyone again. I tried puting a nesting box out last time and putting the pouches low, but now one would sleep in them. Very spoiled monkeys.

BTW, they are in a trio and someone is always prego, so there is always extra food (and lots of mealies) so mom should have enough milk. She did only have singles before, do you think she just doesn't know how to keep track of two?

_________________________
T~
www.lovegliders.com

** Meddle not in the affairs of Dragons, for
you are crunchy and taste good with catsup **

*Proud to forever be a Boo-Boo and BJ Fan!*


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#175379 - 11/22/06 04:56 PM Re: Is joey too small? [Re: tbull]
Dancing Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 09/10/04
Posts: 22746
Loc: 80 acres of paradise in KS
T, that could be. I only had one baby at a time and had trouble keeping track of him (once he got to crawling and walking!)

I would be sure to keep an eye on them, atleast every 4 hours or so and if he is cold, or has an empty belly, I would take and warm him up, give him a bit to eat and then put him back with his family.

Also, when there are joeys, especially more than one, I suggest only having one sleeping pouch so one doesn't get left behind in one pouch if/when they all move to the other.
_________________________
620-704-9109
Judge not until you have walked in their shoes and lived their lives. What you see online is only part of the story.

I could have missed the pain
But I'd of had to miss the dance


The soul would have no rainbow if the eyes had no tears.

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#175381 - 11/22/06 05:05 PM Re: Is joey too small? [Re: Dancing]
tbull Offline
Glider Addict

Registered: 10/04/05
Posts: 3884
Loc: Wyoming
Thanks Dancing. I'm off to pull out the sewing machine to make one big "Mega Pouch". Winter (the other female in the trio) has twins IP and a 9 week OOP joey that still nurses once in a while, maybe she will help nurse Lilo's boy if they are all in one pouch. They have always nursed each other's joeys before.

Just being able to ask people that have been through it helps ALOT. You guys are the best! hug2
_________________________
T~
www.lovegliders.com

** Meddle not in the affairs of Dragons, for
you are crunchy and taste good with catsup **

*Proud to forever be a Boo-Boo and BJ Fan!*


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#175382 - 11/22/06 05:26 PM Re: Is joey too small? [Re: tbull]
Judie Offline
Serious Glideritis

Registered: 10/25/01
Posts: 9173
Loc: Edwardsville, Kansas 66113
Only a suggestion... but have you considered pulling the 9 week old baby out and put him/her in a another cage to ease the compition for the milk bar for the tiny ones?
_________________________
Web site: www.MyLittleGremlin.com

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#175395 - 11/22/06 06:43 PM Re: Is joey too small? [Re: Judie]
tbull Offline
Glider Addict

Registered: 10/04/05
Posts: 3884
Loc: Wyoming
Judie, my 9 week old is going to his new home Sunday. But I still have Nubby's cage cleaned and set up, so I think I will go ahead and move him in there tonight and put it really close to mom and dad's.

It had been 4 hours, so I checked the joey again and he was on mom's back. Tummy empty, he was at least warm and cuddled in with mom. He ate quit abit and was even trying to chew on my finger before he went back in with mom. She cleaned him up, but he has still not gone into her pouch. Looks like a long, long weekend. When I checked my "joey notes" it says that I saw one joey going into her pouch 9/14, so maybe he showed up later and is way too young.

Keep your fingers crossed for him.
_________________________
T~
www.lovegliders.com

** Meddle not in the affairs of Dragons, for
you are crunchy and taste good with catsup **

*Proud to forever be a Boo-Boo and BJ Fan!*


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#175417 - 11/22/06 08:05 PM Re: Is joey too small? [Re: tbull]
Anonymous
Unregistered


sounds like you are getting some really good advice.

I have noticed that sometimes one joey is much more aggressive than the other and will push the other out of the way when it tries to nurse.

I like the idea of taking the bigger joey out for a while to give the little one a chance for a good feed. I would supplement anyone who will eat. The name of the game for joeys is calories. They have to get enough calories to grow. Of course, proper nutrition is important.

You might also consider a little extra supervised feed for momma. Sometimes you can hold momma in your hand and feed her treats while she nurses the smaller joey. Do not try to put the joey in her pouch, just place it near her tummy and it will find its way to the milk bar for a feed.

Keep us updated on his progress

Godspeed

Angel and The Suggies cloud9

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#175464 - 11/22/06 11:31 PM Re: Is joey too small? [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


i sure hope all goes well. keep us posted please.

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#175470 - 11/22/06 11:53 PM Re: Is joey too small? [Re: ]
tbull Offline
Glider Addict

Registered: 10/04/05
Posts: 3884
Loc: Wyoming
Thanks. Well the little girl is fully back in mom's pouch and mom is not letting the boy in at all. I tried holding mom on my lap and had the little boy on her tummy and he kept crawling right past her pouch. He was crying and crying. I finally couldn't take it anymore and got them out for early playtime. I fed him again and then put him in my bra to stay warm. The only good sign was that mom went under my shirt (not touching him though) the whole time. She usually is out running around or hiding under the covers of the bed.

Aunty Winter did not seem interested in him at all, so it looks like I will be supplimenting him totally. They are letting him cuddle while in the cage pouch. So he is warm and mom licks his face to clean him up after I feed him. But how do I tell if she is pottying him? I don't want him to get bloated or uncomfortable.

Until now she has always been such a good mom. I wish I knew what caused this to happen.
_________________________
T~
www.lovegliders.com

** Meddle not in the affairs of Dragons, for
you are crunchy and taste good with catsup **

*Proud to forever be a Boo-Boo and BJ Fan!*


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#175481 - 11/23/06 12:28 AM Re: Is joey too small? [Re: tbull]
BeckiT Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 09/29/06
Posts: 16083
Loc: Manitowoc, WI
T, I would be concerned something is wrong with him, especially after mom not letting him in and Aunty Winter ignored him too frown If you don't see mom pottying him, you could do it each time you supplement him. I know Suz would probably have more insight but she's away for the holiday. Hopefully one of our other great breeders will come along and give more advice.
_________________________
~Becki & Crew~
Glidin' High Sugar Gliders
So You Want to Own a Sugar Glider? Read and Share wink

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#175544 - 11/23/06 09:58 AM Re: Is joey too small? [Re: tbull]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Most on here are familiar with Lynsie's recent experience with raising one of her twins that was rejected, Mr Wiggles. It's a very similar story to this though I think this little guy is a few days younger and also wasn't being hurt by his mama or daddy. Take hope in that T...knowing that Mr. Wiggles has made it and is a healthy and happy baby and will be going home to his new mommy, Becki, in December. You're great for taking the time to take care of this precious baby! I'll be thinking about the two of you and pray all goes well. hug2

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#175546 - 11/23/06 10:05 AM Re: Is joey too small? [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


T I wish you the best of luck with this little guy. You have been given some great advice already. Follow it. You know we are all praying for this little guy to make it. With your help we know he can.

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#175568 - 11/23/06 11:05 AM Re: Is joey too small? [Re: ]
Dancing Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 09/10/04
Posts: 22746
Loc: 80 acres of paradise in KS
T, I would take over feeding him every hour now and do the potty thing for him. (just incase Mom isn't). I would leave them all together providing that they are not hurting him and they are not leaving him alone to long where he is getting cold.

Hand raising is very difficult in that you get very very sleep deprived but the sweet joey you end up with is unlike any other. I wouldn't trade my Duncan for anything in the world.

Hang in there and if I can be of any help, just let me know.
_________________________
620-704-9109
Judge not until you have walked in their shoes and lived their lives. What you see online is only part of the story.

I could have missed the pain
But I'd of had to miss the dance


The soul would have no rainbow if the eyes had no tears.

Top
#175569 - 11/23/06 11:11 AM Re: Is joey too small? [Re: ]
BeckiT Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 09/29/06
Posts: 16083
Loc: Manitowoc, WI
thanks Dezirae, and yes, his story is similar, here's a link for those who are unfamiliar with his story: Debut of Mr. Wiggles, new rejected joey This time can't go fast enough, but I know he needs the extra time to make sure he'll be healthy and strong smile
_________________________
~Becki & Crew~
Glidin' High Sugar Gliders
So You Want to Own a Sugar Glider? Read and Share wink

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#175577 - 11/23/06 11:25 AM My little man didn't make it. [Re: BeckiT]
tbull Offline
Glider Addict

Registered: 10/04/05
Posts: 3884
Loc: Wyoming
When I saw that mom was not feeding him at all, I moved the feedings up to every two hours. I slept in a chair by the cage with a timer set for every two hours, so I could hear him if he cried. Everything was Ok at the 3 am feeding, at 5 he wasn't very hungry, but he was warm and still had some milk in his tummy, so I went ahead and put him back in the family pouch, thinking he was just tired from me bugging him all night. At 7 when I got the pouch out, he didn't cry. I knew something was wrong and pulled everyone else out. Mom was sprawled out over his tiny body. Sorry, this is hard, I am still crying.
There was nothing left to him but his little head and shoulders. His mouth was closed and he looked peaceful, I am praying that he had died in his sleep and didn't suffer.

I feel so guilty, I had the hospital cage all ready at 1am. I even had the heating pad plugged in. But Lilo was cleaning his face and keeping him warm everytime I put him back and there were NO bite marks or anything, so I thought he was safe.

My little man is buried under our Royal Empress Tree, where this spring it's purple flowers can gently cover him. angel

Sorry to pass such sad news, but thought you would want to know.

Thank you for all your support and prayers.
_________________________
T~
www.lovegliders.com

** Meddle not in the affairs of Dragons, for
you are crunchy and taste good with catsup **

*Proud to forever be a Boo-Boo and BJ Fan!*


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#175580 - 11/23/06 11:28 AM Re: My little man didn't make it. [Re: tbull]
BeckiT Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 09/29/06
Posts: 16083
Loc: Manitowoc, WI
Oh T, I am SO sorry, huge hugs to you!
_________________________
~Becki & Crew~
Glidin' High Sugar Gliders
So You Want to Own a Sugar Glider? Read and Share wink

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#175582 - 11/23/06 11:30 AM Re: My little man didn't make it. [Re: tbull]
Dancing Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 09/10/04
Posts: 22746
Loc: 80 acres of paradise in KS
Oh T...I'm so sorry! I know how much it hurts to loose one. Please know this is not your fault and that there are probably reasons we just aren't allowed to know about. I'm so so sorry...
_________________________
620-704-9109
Judge not until you have walked in their shoes and lived their lives. What you see online is only part of the story.

I could have missed the pain
But I'd of had to miss the dance


The soul would have no rainbow if the eyes had no tears.

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#175587 - 11/23/06 11:47 AM Re: My little man didn't make it. [Re: Dancing]
Anonymous
Unregistered


I am so sorry. You did everything you could.

Sometimes mom and dad suggie know much earlier than we that a little one will not make it.

Godspeed

Angel and The Suggies cloud9

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#175595 - 11/23/06 12:19 PM Re: My little man didn't make it. [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Im so so sorry. I lost my 1st and 2nd joey and the 3rd set of twins was a simular story to yours with the little boy being much smaller than his sister (he was 8 grams and she was 15)but luckily after supplimenting all has turned out ok. Dont blame yourself. The if onlys dont do us any good even though I kept doing it myself. People said to me there must of been something wrong with the joey that I couldnt see but it didnt stop me feeling guilty and awful. Looking back I know I did what I could and in time you will feel that to. I guess there was a reason that we will never know. Take care and please dont feel you did anything wrong as you sound like a wonderful glider mum.

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#175605 - 11/23/06 01:27 PM Re: My little man didn't make it. [Re: ]
Xglider Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 01/18/05
Posts: 11157
Loc: Tampa, FL
T- I am so sorry for your loss... {{Hugs}}
_________________________
* ~ * John * ~ * Sorry store is closed at this time.. <br>
Link -> ~~ XtremeGlider ~~ Home of the original Re~set Toys! ~~ <br>
Oct 2012 update.. miss my gliders and my
glider family and think of my friends often!!!

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#175621 - 11/23/06 04:09 PM Re: My little man didn't make it. [Re: tbull]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Please don't feel guilty.... I am sitting here crying for you. I am sending you hugs!!

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#175657 - 11/23/06 07:40 PM Re: My little man didn't make it. [Re: ]
tbull Offline
Glider Addict

Registered: 10/04/05
Posts: 3884
Loc: Wyoming
Thanks everyone, your hugs, thoughts and prayers are a great help. I have been checking on little man's sister and she is doing well. Storm (dad) had a hard time going back to bed this morning. I think he missed little man and Monty (his 9 week old I had moved into another cage last night) I went ahead and moved him back in with the family and they are all cuddled in one pouch sleeping now.

How sad I am can be nothing compared to their sadness and confusion. So I will try to keep everything consistant for a few days to lessen the stress level.

The whole trio and Monty (his new mom picked his name) have been taking care of the new female. Yes, I have been bugging them quite a bit, checking and double checking on her. So it makes me think that several of you were right and there must have been a health problem with Little Man that I could not see. Lilo will get extra cuddles tonight to make sure she knows it is Ok and I still love her.

Opps, thought I was doing better but now starting to cry again so I better get off.

Thanks again for all your support. Can't believe how attached I got in only one night. (Well one night and 70 days of watching mom's pouch growing.)
_________________________
T~
www.lovegliders.com

** Meddle not in the affairs of Dragons, for
you are crunchy and taste good with catsup **

*Proud to forever be a Boo-Boo and BJ Fan!*


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#175666 - 11/23/06 08:27 PM Re: My little man didn't make it. [Re: tbull]
Anonymous
Unregistered


I've sent you an e-mail....I'm so sorry. hug2

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#175684 - 11/23/06 09:58 PM Re: My little man didn't make it. [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


i am sorry for your loss. sending love and hugs to you and your family.

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#175723 - 11/24/06 12:45 AM Re: My little man didn't make it. [Re: ]
LSardou Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 03/01/06
Posts: 21060
Loc: Kansas
hug2 I feel badly for you and the family. You worked so hard. Know that he left in peace. Your a terrific glider mommy.....Blessings heart

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