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#17951 - 02/23/04 01:53 PM Genetic Question -WhiteTip
Anonymous
Unregistered


[:"CC6699"]I have Sebastian my White Tip male, Snowflake my White Tip Female, and Sunshine who is Snowflake's sister, a het for white tip (or possible het for white tip).



My question is, is the white tip gene like the blonde gene? Would a white tip from 2 white tip parents be more likely to produce a white tip than a white tip from a white tip and het pair?? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/nixweiss.gif" alt="" /> [/]

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#17952 - 02/23/04 02:15 PM Re: Genetic Question -WhiteTip [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Good question! I would guess that's how it would work... however, I know of someone that has 3 white tips all paired with normals... and they have never produced any white tipped babies. I have a white tip... and his parents are both normal. I'd like to know how the genetics of the white tips work out as well.. from what I've seen... it seems to be pretty random. With a blonde paired with a normal.. it seems that most breeders are getting just under 50% blondes from this type of pair. With the white tips?? I wonder... has ANYONE seen a white tip baby come out of a white tipped parent??

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#17953 - 02/23/04 03:29 PM Re: Genetic Question -WhiteTip [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


[:"CC6699"]I am not sure if anyone has produced White Tips from a White Tip parent or pair... I have tried to do a search and unfortunatly the White Tip gene seems to have very little info on it.

Sebatian was produced from 2 light gray parents. Snowflake and Sunshine were produced from a blonde het (who is now believed to carry the white tip gene) and a gray <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/nixweiss.gif" alt="" />[/]

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#17954 - 02/23/04 03:48 PM Re: Genetic Question -WhiteTip [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


I believe since white tips come from the subspecies Ariel, it doesn't get passed on the same way normal color genes would. I have no idea how they do get passes, maybe by blood type? Any idea would just be a guess though. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/nixweiss.gif" alt="" />

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#17955 - 02/23/04 05:33 PM Re: Genetic Question -WhiteTip [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Jessie-- You'll have to let us know if Sebastian and Snowflake ever have white tipped babies together. Perhaps that could be a clue as to how white tips are produced?

I agree with Mage... I think that we really just don't know how to get white tipped tails... since they seem to pop up so sporatically. And in different amounts of white as well. I wonder what makes the difference there? Some have white tips that are half inch of the end of their tail... and some are just a few white hairs at the end... What's that all about?

I have Buku.. that has a nice 1/4 inch tip ... and then I have another that has a white tip that is about 10 little hairs... but his isn't really a white tip.. the end of his tail was chewed off before he came oop.. and the fur came back in white.

Who knows?!?!?

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#17956 - 02/23/04 05:47 PM Re: Genetic Question -WhiteTip [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


[:"CC6699"] I am unsure about the White Tip size. Sebastian and snowflake have a little bundle of hair on the ends of their tails. It is not a full long white tip. I posted a picture of Sebastian's. That is what Snowflake's looks like too. I will definatly keep others posted when they become breeding age and have babies =o) [/]


Attachments
201652-SebastianWhiteTipBest.JPG (74 downloads)


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#17957 - 02/23/04 05:47 PM Re: Genetic Question -WhiteTip [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


[:"CC6699"] This is a picture of snowflake's white tip. It isnt a great pic, but good enough lol[/]


Attachments
201654-WhiteTipPicture.JPG (67 downloads)


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#17958 - 02/23/04 06:24 PM Re: Genetic Question -WhiteTip [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Here's a pic of Buku's white tip... one of his parents is cinnamon.. and one is normal.. so his white tip is actually creamy.


Attachments
201666-bukuwhitetip.jpg (78 downloads)


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#17959 - 02/23/04 06:27 PM Re: Genetic Question -WhiteTip [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


[:"CC6699"]Oooo so pretty! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cloud9.gif" alt="" /> [/]

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#17960 - 02/23/04 06:45 PM Re: Genetic Question -WhiteTip [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


What is a white tip? Sorry for my stupidity... <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />

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#17961 - 02/23/04 06:50 PM Re: Genetic Question -WhiteTip [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


[:"CC6699"]Haha your not stupid! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

A White Tip glider is actually a sub-species of sugar glider that is commonly found in the wild. But since the 2 species have basically been bred together, our domesticated glider sometimes appear with white tips at the end of their tails.

A white tip has a tail just like any other glider, except on the end, at the tip of their tail, it is white instead of all black <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> [/]

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#17962 - 02/23/04 10:10 PM Re: Genetic Question -WhiteTip [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


[:"CC6699"]Anyone able to help? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/nixweiss.gif" alt="" /> [/]

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#17963 - 02/24/04 06:04 AM Re: Genetic Question -WhiteTip [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


I don't think anybody really knows. Maybe Priscilla Price, maybe. Gliders haven't been domesticated long enough, nor has their breeding been kept track of well enough, for people to get a good genetic background. With people like Priscilla starting breeding programs the information will begin to be documented, but as of now, it just doesn't exist(to my knowledge).

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#17964 - 02/24/04 08:11 AM Re: Genetic Question -WhiteTip [Re: ]
Sheila Offline
Serious Glideritis

Registered: 02/05/00
Posts: 5363
Loc: Ok
Pricilla doesn't know. Ushiah on this board knows. The gliders Pricilla is rearing belong to Helen Moreno who has had this breeding program going for 6 years. Pricilla cares for them and sells them for her. Pricilla is still learning about the genetics herself.
_________________________
ToandFro Gliders

http://www.toandfrogliders.com

USDA Licensed breeder for 12 years and counting!

WE SELL THE STEALTH WHEEL

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#17965 - 02/24/04 09:19 AM Re: Genetic Question -WhiteTip [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Ah, thanks for clearing that up for me <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

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#17966 - 02/24/04 10:34 AM Re: Genetic Question -WhiteTip [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


[:"CC6699"]So I should try to contact Chris? I will write him an e-mail right now. [/]

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#17967 - 02/24/04 03:19 PM Re: Genetic Question -WhiteTip [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


[:"CC6699"]Chris was kind enough to e-mail me back an answer to all my questions. I will post the e-mail here....


[:"blue"] "How exactly is that gene carried on?"

[:"red"]White tip is recessive to normal. The gene follows
punnance squares for probability. Blonde gene is
codominate so it will show a variety of color shades
that can be considered blonde. That a glider has a
white tip is easily calculated how much of a white tip
it has might depend on codominace. [/]

"Are there any known white tip pairs that have produced
white tip babies?"

[:"red"]Yes in the wild white tips are produced regularly from
white tip parents. The white tip serves as a way of comminicating with the colony members without drawing a lot of attention to the animal. [/]

"And if so, would a white tip glider from 2 white tip
parents have a better chance of producing a white tip
than a white tip from 1 white tip parent and 1 het?"

[:"red"]Two white tips will produce white tips 100% of the
time. White tip and a het will produce a white tip 50%
of the time. [/]

"Is there any way to tell if a glider is a possible het
for white tip?"

[:"red"]Yes but that would entail genetically mapping the
gliders and finding out what gene or combination of
genes causes white tip to occur. This can cost
millions of dollars. So there is no easy way to tell affordably. [/]

"I understand that the white tip glider is a
subspecies, so I am unsure about how this works. I
have a trio, a white tip male, a white tip female, and
her sister. I am trying to figure out the chances of
having white tip offspring."

[:"red"]Female white tip will produce all white tips.
Female 100% het will produce 50% white tips.
Female possible het might produce a white tip if it is
a het if not there is not way to know without
producing a white tip. [/]

[/]

Anything in quotation marks is something that I asked him, and his answers are below it. [/]

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#17968 - 02/25/04 09:32 AM Re: Genetic Question -WhiteTip [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


hmmm.... that doesn't quite seem right to me. I guess we'll just have to see with your white tips Jess.... I can't imagine that a white tip paired with a white tip is going to get 100% white tipped babies? That just seems way too easy. I guess I'm a skeptic! I'll believe it when I see it! lol

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#17969 - 02/25/04 10:09 AM Re: Genetic Question -WhiteTip [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Ok, i guess i ought to throw Ushuaia a loop:

Here's the pair i have, both parents Pepperoni and Nikita are normal grays.
Pepperoni is a het for blonde according to Sheila, but according to her (after recent development) is also a carrier of the white tip gene based on the fact, that his parents produced one arround the same time this pair of mine produced Snowflake.
Nikita is offspring to Oscar, whose brother in a later litter actually had a white tip.

When i put the two together, for some reason, it crossed my mind, (not knowing about Pepperoni's parents later producing a white tip yet) that hopefully i'd get a white tip out of them. Not that it mattered to me, and i sure didn't expect it on their first litter. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

So Ushuaia, what do you venture to say what the chances of another white tip are out of my pair ? (they do have a new single baby itp)

I think it's possible both parents are carriers.

Tanja

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#17970 - 02/26/04 01:23 PM Re: Genetic Question -WhiteTip [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Pepperoni is a het for blonde according to Sheila, but according to her (after recent
development) is also a carrier of the white tip gene based on the fact, that his parents
produced one arround the same time this pair of mine produced Snowflake.

Nikita is offspring to Oscar, whose brother in a later litter actually had a white tip.

Unless on of the parents are white tip then the fact that the brother or mother produced a white tip will not assure you that the glider has the gene. Both gliders are only possible white tips. I will calculate the odds later but you have a slim chance of getting a white tip.

Ushuaia

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#17971 - 02/26/04 02:58 PM Re: Genetic Question -WhiteTip [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


I found a very good picture of a white tip earlier. I just don't remember where I got it. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wave.gif" alt="" />


Attachments
202784-white tip.JPG (40 downloads)



Edited by Alisha (02/26/04 02:59 PM)

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#17972 - 02/27/04 01:58 AM Re: Genetic Question -WhiteTip [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


That is a picture of Lisa at suncoasts glider.

Nikita is also a possible het only IF Oscar is a het. Oscar is a possible het as well because Oscar brother is a het only proves one of Oscars parents had the gene. If only one parent had the gene then Oscar has a 33% chance of having the gene then Nikita will get the gene only if Oscar has it, assuming the other parent does not have the gene then Nikita has a 33% chance of having the gene. That makes Nikitas chances of having the gene about 11% under ideal circumstances. Now that 11% might be wrong but I think I did the statistics correct.

Ushuaia

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#17973 - 03/01/04 06:36 PM Re: Genetic Question -White Tip [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Sorry, but I don't understand Ushuaia's explanation at all??


</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />
[:"purple"] .....that makes Nikitas chances of having the gene about 11% under ideal circumstances.....[/]

<hr /></blockquote><font class="post">

The above may or may not be true if we had no information about Nikita's progeny; but since we know about Nikita's offspring and assuming that the white tip(WT) characteristic is controlled by a single recessive to normal gene as stated by Ushuaia(and I don't know that it is*), then it seems to me the following would be true.

Since Snowflake is a WT, then the WT gene must be present in each parent making BOTH Pepperoni and Nikita heterozygous. Using Prunnett Square Analysis, it is easy to determine that the probability of offspring for two WT het parents is:

Grey(Normal)=25%
Gray(het for WT)= 50%
White Tip= 25%

On average, Tanja, your Pepperoni and Nikita should produce one WT out of every four joeys.

And to answer Jessie's original question, which has been overlooked to this point, using the assumptions mentioned above, a white tip is a white tip is a white tip.....

</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />
My question is, is the white tip gene like the blonde gene? Would a white tip from 2 white tip parents be more likely to produce a white tip than a white tip from a white tip and het pair??

<hr /></blockquote><font class="post">

I don't know exactly what you mean by the first part of your question; but as to the second part, there should be no difference in offspring from the two sets of parents that you have proposed relative to their ability to produce new white tips. By definition, a WT must have a pair of WT genes and thus is capable ONLY of passing along that gene!!!

BTW, here is a neat little site that will give you some basic information on heredity and inheritance:

http://anthro.palomar.edu/mendel/Default.htm


*Note: Ushuaia, himself, acknowledges that the WT characteristic may be controlled by more than one gene. (see his quote below) It is very important to understand and remember that if the WT characteristic is controlled by more than one gene, a simple Prunnett Square Analysis will not generate accurate hereditary information unless ALL of the genes that control the WT characteristic are known and inserted into the analysis !!

</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />
[:"red"] .....that would entail genetically mapping the gliders and finding out what gene or combination of genes causes white tip to occur.....there is no easy way to tell.....[/]

<hr /></blockquote><font class="post">

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#17974 - 03/01/04 08:07 PM Re: Genetic Question -WhiteTip [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


I was very curious too about the white tip gene. I have a female white tip glider that looks alot like the picture that Alisha posted but her white tip is just a little bigger than that. I'm very glad that this topic was started so that I could understand a little better. Thank you. I will try to post a picture of her as soon as I get get a picture taken.

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#17975 - 03/01/04 11:04 PM Re: Genetic Question -White Tip [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Jessie: <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wave.gif" alt="" />

</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />
[:"purple"] Okay, so, you are saying, that if I have one WT glider and one regular gray glider (not carring the WT gene), I will NOT get any WTs? [/]

<hr /></blockquote><font class="post">

I got an email notification of your post but it was not on the board????

Anyway......first off let me repeat that I am just learning about the subject of genetics and heredity and am not well versed on the subject by any stretch of the imagination.....probably one of those people who knows just enough to be dangerous...LOL.

According to my understanding, if:

1. the WT characteristic is controlled by a single recessive to normal gene and

2. your WT is a true WT and

3. your gray is a true normal without the WT gene, then

4. you should not get a WT by breeding them.

Now that is an awful lot of "ifs", so the best I could offer is try it and see what happens.

Here are a few more things to think about:

a. We don't have any evidence that the WT characteristic is the result of a single recessive to normal gene. The trait could be the result of a combination of genes that we have no information on. Mind you, i'm not saying the information doesn't exist, only that we may have it. If we are looking at a multiple gene situation, the inheritance possibilities become very complicated.

b. Your WT may not be a true WT. A few white hairs on the tip of the tail may not indicate the presence of a true WT gene. It could just as well be the result of some other genetic aberration.

c. We can be sure that your gray carries the gene(HET) if he produces a WT. On the other hand, it is almost impossible to say for sure that he DOES NOT carry the gene, especially if you don't know his family tree back many generations.

I've done some reading on the Internet and am slowly working my way through a couple of genetics books from the library. It is evident that the subject is very complicated, more so than most of the posts on GC would lead one to believe. If you are serious about getting into the breeding business.....particularly for colors.....I would strongly advise you to do some research on your own.....pick up a couple of books and build your own knowledge of the subject. It is a fascinating endeavor; but will take a lot more effort than just reading a few bulletin board posts. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thinkerg.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/read.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumb.gif" alt="" />

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#17976 - 03/03/04 07:39 AM Re: Genetic Question -White Tip [Re: ]
Sheila Offline
Serious Glideritis

Registered: 02/05/00
Posts: 5363
Loc: Ok
Chris, why would Oscar's Brother be a possible het when he is white tipped? I thought if you have a white tip, you have the gene?
_________________________
ToandFro Gliders

http://www.toandfrogliders.com

USDA Licensed breeder for 12 years and counting!

WE SELL THE STEALTH WHEEL

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#17977 - 03/03/04 08:22 PM Re: Genetic Question -White Tip [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Would someone clarify this for me:

Is Nikita a White tip?

Is Nikita's mother a White tip?

Is Nikita's father a white tip?

Are any of Nikita's Grandparents a white tip?

Where in Nikita's line did a white tip appear?

Also:

Is Oscar a White tip?

Is Oscars mother a White tip?

Is Oscars father a white tip?

Are any of Oscars Grandparents a white tip?

Where in Oscars line did a white tip appear?

I was under the impression that Oscar was a het. My calculations are based upon that assumption.

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#17978 - 03/03/04 10:44 PM Re: Genetic Question -White Tip [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Ushuaia,
Ok let me try once more to write this as clearly as possible:
Parents of Oscar :
mom (name unknown)+ dad(name unknown)=produced Oscar, later a white tip baby
Oscar (normal gray)
= earlier litter mate to the white tip baby that is now owned by Sheila
Emma (parents unknown) wife to Oscar and normal gray

Oscar and Emma= produced Nikita

Pepperoni (het for blonde) was produced by two of Sheila's gliders which later produced a white tip

Pepperoni+ Nikita (both normal grays) Produced a white tip and a non white tip sister on the first litter = Snowflake and Sunshine

This is all i know, and i hope that clears up some things.

Tanja

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#17979 - 03/04/04 04:41 AM Re: Genetic Question -White Tip [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wave.gif" alt="" /> Tanja:

</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />
.....Nikita is offspring to Oscar, whose brother in a later litter actually had a white tip......

<hr /></blockquote><font class="post">

From your first post. I think I misinterpreted this the first time, not that it makes a difference for the purposes of this discussion. Are you saying Oscar's brother was a white tip or fathered a white tip???

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#17980 - 03/04/04 04:58 AM Re: Genetic Question -White Tip [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Babydevilsangel: <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wave.gif" alt="" />

</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />
.....I know of someone that has 3 white tips all paired with normals... and they have never produced any white tipped babies. I have a white tip... and his parents are both normal?

<hr /></blockquote><font class="post">

Assuming the WT characteristic is controlled by a single recessive to normal gene, what you have stated above is perfectly correct. A WT mated to a normal gray will NEVER produce a WT.

Your WT came from gray parents but not normal gray parents. For them to have produced a WT each gray parent had to be a het for WT!!!

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