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#18310 - 03/02/04 09:26 PM Dumb question #5832
Anonymous
Unregistered


Not sure if this is posted in the right area. Anywho... I'm still learning, so what does "het" mean or stand for? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />

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#18311 - 03/02/04 09:58 PM Re: Dumb question #5832 [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


[:"hotpink"]This is not a dumb question... The reason I know this is not a dumb question is because I was wondering the same thing myself!
Anyone know? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/nixweiss.gif" alt="" /> [/]

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#18312 - 03/02/04 10:10 PM Re: Dumb question #5832 [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


This is a great question!

Most animals are diploid, which means they carry two different variations of one gene. (Like, you know how humans have two copies of every gene.)

Het is an abbreviation for "heterozygous" which means that an animal carries two different "flavors" of an allele (or gene) for a certain trait.

Like, for example, if you read that a glider is "het for leucistic" it means that the glider carries one gene that is for leucistic coloration (which is also called Black Eyed White) and the other gene is for another coloration (like white-faced blonde).

Homozygous is when both genes are the same. ("homo" = "same") So if a glider is homozygous for Leucisitic, it means that both genes are for leucisitic coloration. This also means that since both genes are the same, you will see the result in the physical representation. Like, for example Judie's and Sheila's Leucistic babies! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/heartpump.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/heartpump.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> Both genes code for the Black-Eyed White coloration, so that is what you see! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> (And aren't they cute!) Judie's babies.

Make any sense? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />

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#18313 - 03/02/04 10:13 PM Re: Dumb question #5832 [Re: ]
KattyM Offline
Serious Glideritis

Registered: 12/24/02
Posts: 9910
Loc: Phoenix, AZ
Great explanation! Your studies are paying off! Thanks for sharing with us.
_________________________
Owned by my :grey: "Eight is Enough" colony:

• 2003: Hiroshi (M)
• 2009: Herbie (M)

:rbridge:
• 2002-2004: Keiko (F) and baby Tomoki (M)
• 2009: Sammy (F), Charlie (F), Murray (M)
• 2010: BJ (M)
My gallery

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#18314 - 03/02/04 10:14 PM Re: Dumb question #5832 [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/roflmao.gif" alt="" /> Thank you, Katty... I'm sure my parents would like to know that their money is being well-spent. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/roflmao.gif" alt="" />

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#18315 - 03/03/04 06:03 AM Genetics Discussion [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />
.....Most animals are diploid, which means they carry [:"red"] two different variations of one gene.[/] (Like, you know how humans have two copies of every gene.)

Het is an abbreviation for "heterozygous" which means that an animal carries two different "flavors" of an allele (or gene) for a certain trait......

<hr /></blockquote><font class="post">

The above is not exactly correct. Strictly speaking, "Diploid" means having pairs of chromosomes. A human has 23 pairs or 46 chromosomes, a dog has 39 pairs or 78 and a fruit fly has 4 pairs or 8.(Don't know how many a glider has??) Since each chromosome carries a set of genes, there will also be pairs of genes. The gene pairs can be the same or they can be different. Being diploid says ONLY that we have pairs and implies NOTHING about whether the pairs are the same or different!!!

Genes have alternative forms known as alleles. If the alleles of a pair are the same, they are homozygous and if the alleles are different, they are heterozygous.

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#18316 - 03/03/04 09:52 AM Re: Dumb question #5832 [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Randy,
You are giving your brain a workout today. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

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#18317 - 03/03/04 11:43 AM Re: Dumb question #5832 [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Trying not to get too technical, I misspoke. Not two variations, two copies.

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#18318 - 03/03/04 03:01 PM Re: Dumb question #5832 [Re: ]
KattyM Offline
Serious Glideritis

Registered: 12/24/02
Posts: 9910
Loc: Phoenix, AZ
Oh, man! Is there a quiz on Friday? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" /> Good thing I can just refer back to this thread for future reference! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumb.gif" alt="" />
_________________________
Owned by my :grey: "Eight is Enough" colony:

• 2003: Hiroshi (M)
• 2009: Herbie (M)

:rbridge:
• 2002-2004: Keiko (F) and baby Tomoki (M)
• 2009: Sammy (F), Charlie (F), Murray (M)
• 2010: BJ (M)
My gallery

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#18319 - 03/03/04 07:38 PM Re: Dumb question #5832 [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


[:"hotpink"] ok, as I uncross my eyes... <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/roflmao.gif" alt="" />

So if I were adopting a <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/littleglider.gif" alt="" /> and knew nothing about them what would this mean to me?

Does this just simply mean that they are half one color half another so you don't really know what they are going to look like exactly when they are an adult?

Does this mean it has one characteristic (i.e. color) but carries the gene of another color due to being bred from 2 different colored <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/littleglider.gif" alt="" />

Is this only significant if you are planning to breed?

The reason I ask is my next glider is "het" for cinnamon <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/nixweiss.gif" alt="" />

ok, now I am talking in circles ... sorry lol

Thanks,
Candy <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/heartpump.gif" alt="" />

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#18320 - 03/03/04 07:42 PM Re: Dumb question #5832 [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Don't worry, it wasn't a dumb question. There are no dumb questions here! We're all here to learn. To tell the truth, I didn't quite understand it myself. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />

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#18321 - 03/03/04 08:03 PM Re: Dumb question #5832 [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Candyland, that means that any babies she produces or fathers, have a small chance of being cinnamon. In a nutshell! If her mom was cinnamon and dad was gray, and she's gray, then, she carries the cinnamon gene, but isn't the cinnamon color. does that help any?

Chey <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wave.gif" alt="" />

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#18322 - 03/03/04 09:38 PM Re: Dumb question #5832 [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Okay:
In genetics, lets just say that we are just talking about color. I'm going to use a human as an example. Well, when the male and female mate, half of the chromosomes from the male is put in the females egg. In the female's egg, it has gone through a phase where it splits and so instead of having 46 chromosomes, like it does at first, after the split, it has 23. The male's sperm already has 23. When the sperm fertilized the egg, the chromosomes are mixed and the 46 is made again. In those chromosomes are traits. Half the traits come from the female and half come from the male.

Now we are talking about color. Depending on which color is the dominant color, (lets say that grey is dominant over brown), and depending on whether the parent has dominant or recessive traits. An all dominant parent would be GG, and an all recessive would be bb. Let’s say the mom has bb and the dad has Gb. Three of the babies would be bb (brown), and one would be grey.

Het means both traits. That means that if you have a het cinnie, then let’s say the female is CC dominant and the male is gg recessive grey. All of the babies would be Cg Cinnie dominant. If the mom was Cg and the dad was Cg, one of the babies would be CC dominant, two would be Cg cinnie dominant, and one would be gg, grey. They only come out as one color, unless the colors turn out to be mixed where the dominant trait shows the recessive trait a bit.

I hope this helped a bit…I know it was probably a bit confusing, so I’ll come back with a better explanation. Wow…I didn’t even know I knew all of this stuff!!! Although, I learned it about 6 months ago!!! Freshman biology!!! Woohoo!!!! Lol

Have fun!!!

It also means that if the suggie is Gc, then the grey will show up, but not the cinnie. If the glider is Cinnie het, then I'm assuming that it is either CC or Cg and will be a cinnie glider!!!

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#18323 - 03/04/04 05:42 AM Genetics Discussion [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Hey Mods:

This thread really belongs in the breeding forum, don't you think???

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#18324 - 03/04/04 07:06 AM Genetics Discussion [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Hi Candy: <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wave.gif" alt="" />

This business of genetics and inheritance it pretty tricky. Let me see if I can clarify a few things for you.

</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />
.....Does this just simply mean that they are half one color half another so you don't really know what they are going to look like exactly when they are an adult.....

<hr /></blockquote><font class="post">

Yes and no!!! If you have a het, the animal has genes for two colors and will exhibit the color of the dominant gene(allele). As an example, lets say the animal is gray but carries the cinnamon gene. When you mate this het with other animals, you can't predict exactly what color any particular joey will be; but you can predict the probability that a joey will be a particular color. For instance:

1. If you mate a het for cin with a normal gray, you will always get grays.

2. If you mate a het for cin with a het for cin, on average you will get one cin, 2 het for cin(gray color) and one normal gray.

3. If you mate a het for cin with a cin, on average you will get two cins and 2 het for cins(gray color).

In actual fact, it is probably a bit more complicated; but this should give you the basic idea.


</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />
.....Is this only significant if you are planning to breed.....

<hr /></blockquote><font class="post">

Yes!!

I don't know if the above has helped or just confused you more?? If you still have questions, keep on firing until we get you the answers you want or until we give up and say, "....I just don't know....!!"

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#18325 - 03/04/04 07:57 AM Genetics Discussion [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


I failed to mention in my previous message that Jess did a nice job on her explanation even though there was one small hiccup that needed clarification. Alyssa has also done a good job as well; however one comment might make things a bit clearer.

</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />
.....Het means both traits. That means that if you have a het cinnie, then let's say the female is CC dominant and the male is gg recessive gray. All of the babies would be Cg Cinnie dominant. If the mom was Cg and the dad was Cg, one of the babies would be CC dominant, two would be Cg cinnie dominant, and one would be gg, gray. They only come out as one color, unless the colors turn out to be mixed where the dominant trait shows the recessive trait a bit.....

<hr /></blockquote><font class="post">

This explanation may be a little confusing to people since it appears from the posts I have seen that the cinnie gene is the recessive gene. If that is indeed true, the above might have a closer relation to the real world if it were revised to say:

[:"purple"] Het means both traits. That means that if you have a het for cinnie, then let's say the female is GG dominant(gray) and the male is cc recessive (cinnie). All of the babies would be Gc gray dominant. If the mom was Gc and the dad was Gc, one of the babies would be GG dominant, two would be Gc gray dominant, and one would be cc, cinnamon. They only come out as one color, unless the colors turn out to be mixed where the dominant trait shows the recessive trait a bit(codominance).....[/]

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#18326 - 03/04/04 09:48 AM Re: Genetics Discussion [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered



<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/roflmao.gif" alt="" />

I read these posts every time they pop up, always trying to smush this genetics stuff into my brain. And I must admit, each time I reinforce it, I get a little bit more each time, BUT, it's still oh so complicated. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/question.gif" alt="" /> lol.

Anyway, I just wanted to add one bit of help because I was also once in the "HUH?!?" group of genetic knowledgeable people. lol. When they say you'll have one cinn, and on het for cinn, and two regular grays... they don't mean all at once. Or even specifically in that order. But an average mating glider will usually give you this combination in a year's time (depending on the breeding practices of the gliders). I know, that's not a BIG tip, lol, but it was a bit of help for me when I was first learning this stuff. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumb.gif" alt="" />

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#18327 - 03/04/04 11:51 AM Re: Genetics Discussion [Re: ]
KattyM Offline
Serious Glideritis

Registered: 12/24/02
Posts: 9910
Loc: Phoenix, AZ
Okay, me, me! I have another question! Randy, you said </font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />
2. If you mate a het for cin with a het for cin, on average you will get one cin, 2 het for cin(gray color) and one normal gray.

<hr /></blockquote><font class="post">

Does this mean if you get a cinnamon, and you mate a similar cinnamon (e.g., under the same scenario), they'll always have cinnamons?
_________________________
Owned by my :grey: "Eight is Enough" colony:

• 2003: Hiroshi (M)
• 2009: Herbie (M)

:rbridge:
• 2002-2004: Keiko (F) and baby Tomoki (M)
• 2009: Sammy (F), Charlie (F), Murray (M)
• 2010: BJ (M)
My gallery

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#18328 - 03/04/04 01:26 PM Re: Genetics Discussion [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Yes, if they are two cinnamons (CC) they can only have cinnamon offspring. This is going by the assumed facts that cinnamon is a recessive trait, and that only CC are cinnamons.

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#18329 - 03/04/04 03:34 PM Re: Genetics Discussion [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


you can figure out what two animals will produce using a punnet square if you know what genes they have. say we take two cinnie hets (Gc) and breed them together we would get 25% of the ofspring would be regular grays(GG). 25% would be cinnies. and 50% would be cinnie hets(Gc). i have attached a punnet square shoing how it works.


Attachments
205331-GG.jpg (22 downloads)


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#18330 - 03/04/04 06:05 PM Re: Genetics Discussion [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Yay for Punnett squares...

Ok, with the mating of a cinnamon with a cinnamon, you may always get cinnamons, and theoretically you will IF the color trait is determined by only one set of genes. BUT sometimes traits are affected by MULTIPLE genes... this would be called a "polygenic trait" which means that not only will the genes at ONE locus have to be recessive (or a certain way--maybe not necessarily recessive), but the genes at ANOTHER locus may also have to be a certain way in order to produce a full-on cinnamon.
Environment can also affect certain traits.

So maybe, if you mate a Cin with a Cin you'll get different "degrees" of Cins. Some really red, some really creamy-colored, some browner than others, etc.

That's why Randy said that it is probably a bit more complicated when he was talking about mating Cins and Grays. (Which are the written out results of doing the Punnett Square.)

A great example of a polygenic trait in humans is height. Height is determined not by only one gene locus, but a few different ones. That's why height is not "either/or." There is lots of variation.
An example of a single-gene trait in humans is the ability to curl the sides of your tongue into that "tube" shape. Some people can do it, some people can't! (I can't <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> ) I think the ability to flare your nostrils is also determined by a single gene in humans as well... not 100% sure on either examples though. I'd look in my genetics book for some for-sure examples, but I think I may have "accidently" lost it. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />

Genetics is by no means "simple." There are a lot of different things behind the scenes that go into producing what you see in front of you. Some black and white, and lots of gray area...

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#18331 - 03/04/04 06:28 PM Re: Genetics Discussion [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />
.....Yay for Punnet squares...Genetics is by no means "simple." There are a lot of different things behind the scenes that go into producing what you see in front of you. Some black and white, and lots of gray area.....

<hr /></blockquote><font class="post">


Jess:

Outstanding post!!! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumb.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/multi.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/yelclap.gif" alt="" /> I've tried to make that point a couple of times; but you did it soooooo much better......excellent!!!

BTW, I think it is a PUNNETT square.....i've seen it spelled both ways; but believe double "T" is correct???

And one final thought: there is a lot more "gray" than there is "black and white." Pun absolutely intended..........LOL <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/roflmao.gif" alt="" />

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#18332 - 03/04/04 06:51 PM Re: Genetics Discussion [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


[:"hotpink"] Wow,
I get it, for the most part LOL
Thanks![/]

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#18333 - 03/04/04 06:55 PM Re: Genetics Discussion [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Thank you, Randy.
Glad the bad pun wasn't completely lost... <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />

I've seen it both ways too... I think it's Punnett too, but I've seen it vary in different papers depending upon the nationality of the writers. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/nixweiss.gif" alt="" /> Spelling is definitely NOT my strong point in any case.

Alright, had to edit the last post, the spelling errors were driving me nuts. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />


Edited by Zayda (03/04/04 07:11 PM)

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#18334 - 03/04/04 07:10 PM Re: Genetics Discussion [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Also, for anyone that wants to kind of "see" and read a little more about Mendelian genetics and Punnet(t) squares, here is a pretty good site. The professor that wrote this page says "Punnet." <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/nixweiss.gif" alt="" />

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#18335 - 03/04/04 07:14 PM Re: Genetics Discussion [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Wow, thanks to everyone that replied to my simple question. Original question: "what does het mean or stand for?" It was far more than I expected to learn but am facinated none the less. Thanks again. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wave.gif" alt="" />

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#18336 - 03/04/04 07:25 PM Re: Dumb question #5832 [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />
Does this just simply mean that they are half one color half another so you don't really know what they are going to look like exactly when they are an adult?

<hr /></blockquote><font class="post">

I forgot I wanted to add something here. Sometimes with certain traits (fur color is one of them in certain species) you CAN have sort of "half one color, half another" because of something called co-dominance. Co-dominance is when both alleles are dominant so both are expressed. This is kind of complicated to explain without pictures and a lot more explanation, but a great example is of flower colors.
Say you breed a white flower with a red flower and you observe in your new generation that some of the flowers are white, some are red, and some are white and red SPOTTED. You can see both phenotypes expressed, which indicates co-dominance.

With gliders, it's going to be more complicated, but this may be part of why you see some gliders like Priscilla Price's calicos. Of course.... if those gliders are "true" calicos (like calico cats), then their coloration is a result of something called "mosaicism"...
And THAT is a bit more complicated... <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />

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#18337 - 03/04/04 07:30 PM Re: Genetics Discussion [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />
.....Does this mean if you get a cinnamon, and you mate a similar cinnamon (e.g., under the same scenario), they'll always have cinnamons?

<hr /></blockquote><font class="post">

Katty: I think you are getting it!! Answer is yes IF..... the cinnie color is controlled by a single gene. But it is likely to be a more complicated situation. See Jess's post above.

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#18338 - 03/04/04 07:40 PM Re: Genetics Discussion [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />
.....i have attached a punnet square shoing how it works.

<hr /></blockquote><font class="post">

Lainey did a good job on her Punnett square; but it looks like she painted it on the side of a barn....... <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/roflmao.gif" alt="" /> Her attachement is a little difficult to view so I have resized it for easier viewing.


[]http://www.sugarglider.net/images/205437-punnett.jpg[/]


Attachments
205437-punnett.jpg (8 downloads)


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#18339 - 03/04/04 08:23 PM Genetics Discussion [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />
.....Say you breed a white flower with a red flower and you observe in your new generation that some of the flowers are white, some are red, and some are [:"purple"] white and red SPOTTED. [/] You can see both phenotypes expressed, which indicates co-dominance......

<hr /></blockquote><font class="post">

Or maybe pink????

Looks like we have found our resident genetics expert......keep up the good work, Jess!!

And now a question for you that I have on terminology. I have seen these two terms used interchangeably to mean the same thing; but to me they have a different connotation.

"Het for cin" suggests to me that the animal (most commonly gray; but could be another color) carries a cinnie gene(s).

While "cinnie het" suggests to me a cinnamon glider carrying some other recessive gene(s).

Can you help us out with the correct terminology???

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