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#21853 - 06/07/04 07:00 PM am i way wrong here?
Anonymous
Unregistered


<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/littleglider.gif" alt="" /> [:"purple"]hi, i need some advice from anyone with experience with sgs or sm. on www.gliderhealth.com (click on "self-mutilation"), it states that one of the common causes of sm in female sgs is "parasites (commonly giardia)" however, i just received a pm from someone who said that there is "not one iota of evidence" that there is any link between giardia and sm. which info is true? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/nixweiss.gif" alt="" /> if my info is inaccurate, i want to know about it! any help will be appreciated. thank you. [/]

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#21854 - 06/07/04 07:24 PM Re: am i way wrong here? [Re: ]
Charlie H Offline
Glider Slave

Registered: 11/13/03
Posts: 1659
Loc: Wallis Texas
Personally, I have never heard of a glider, male or female, mutilating as a result of giardia. With a female the more common causes are UTI, constipation, yeast infection, injury, or stress.
Charlie H
_________________________
Rescue & Rehabilation
http://www.angelfire.com/tx/glidertree/
[]glidertree@toast.net[/]

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#21855 - 06/07/04 07:40 PM Re: am i way wrong here? [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/littleglider.gif" alt="" /> [:"purple"]thanx for the input. i did not know about constipation. but there are reputable people on the site i mentioned, people like bourbon! is the site inaccurate? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/nixweiss.gif" alt="" /> [/]

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#21856 - 06/07/04 07:44 PM Re: am i way wrong here? [Re: ]
KarenE Offline
Owner

Registered: 03/25/00
Posts: 41279
Loc: LittleRock, AR USA
[:"blue"]You may want to re-read the information given on the site. In particular the "Myths" as I believe this will be cleared up for you.

You really need to read all the information to understand the problems faced when trying to figure out why gliders mutilate. [/]
_________________________
Your Sugar Glider Resource Center
Sugar Glider Help



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#21857 - 06/07/04 08:29 PM Re: am i way wrong here? [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/littleglider.gif" alt="" /> [:"purple"]i have re-read the info on www.gliderhealth.com TWICE. it states that MYTH: sm only happens to females. FACT: some of the problems in females are (various infections) and "parasites (commonly giardia.)" if you will kindly check out the site, and let me know if i am reading it wrong. i mean NO disrespect to you or anyone else on this board, but the pm i received made me feel like an idiot. [/]

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#21858 - 06/07/04 08:54 PM Re: am i way wrong here? [Re: ]
Critter Creations Offline
Glider Addict

Registered: 11/02/00
Posts: 3398
Loc: Rock Falls, IL, USA
I would imagine that giardia could cause SM because giardia causes diarrhea and that could cause their little bum to get sore and that could cause them to SM. You just have to think about what the parasite causes in symptoms and see if it will cause any irritation around the areas that are generally where SM concentrate on. So when looking at it that way yes giardia could cause SM, because it does cause irritation to an area they concentrate on. Hope this makes sense.
_________________________
Danielle
owned by 4 dogs and 2 gliders really soon
Formerly known as K & D Exotics


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#21859 - 06/07/04 09:00 PM Re: am i way wrong here? [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/littleglider.gif" alt="" /> [:"purple"]thank you k and d. that makes sense. and it makes me feel better, too! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/multi.gif" alt="" /> what can i use in the cage to prevent giardia? i read on another thread to use hot water and bleach to clean the cage, but i would rather not use bleach. would rubbing alcohol or peroxide work just as well to prevent giardia? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/nixweiss.gif" alt="" /> [/]

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#21860 - 06/07/04 09:15 PM Re: am i way wrong here? [Re: ]
Critter Creations Offline
Glider Addict

Registered: 11/02/00
Posts: 3398
Loc: Rock Falls, IL, USA
I doubt it, but I can tell you from past experience that I used to use bleach on my cages and as long as I rinsed them I never had any trouble. Now what I do is use hot water, antibacterial dishsoap, and vinegar to clean my cages. This will keep them clean and unless there is an outside source that gives them giardia they are not going to catch it. An outside source such as tap water or another animal with giardia. As long as you keep their cage clean you don't have to worry about it unless you know it is in your tap water and if that is the case you need to go to spring water. If you are worried about giardia just showing up on the cage that is not going to happen unless you never clean it or they have gotten it from the outside sources like I mentioned above. Hope this makes sense to you. So just clean your cage normally and you shouldn't have to worry about it unless they get it from an outside source and you have to clean their cage while they have it and then I highly recommend bleach and just rinsing the cage thoroughly. This is truly my thoughts on this. I have had one case of giardia in this house and that was a rescue I brought in and I knew that from the owners past there was a risk of him having it because they had it in their tap water. Otherwise in 5 years I have never had a case of giardia so this isn't something you need to constantly worry over. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
_________________________
Danielle
owned by 4 dogs and 2 gliders really soon
Formerly known as K & D Exotics


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#21861 - 06/07/04 09:22 PM Re: am i way wrong here? [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/littleglider.gif" alt="" /> [:"purple"]thanx for the info, kandd! do you use one part water to one part vinegar? or less vinegar and more water? i am not terribly worried, i just want to make sure i do the best i can! [/]

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#21862 - 06/07/04 09:38 PM Re: am i way wrong here? [Re: ]
Critter Creations Offline
Glider Addict

Registered: 11/02/00
Posts: 3398
Loc: Rock Falls, IL, USA
I use more water than vinegar. I don't really measure it out, but I get a medium size bowl and fill it with hot water and dishsoap first and then I pour in just a little vinegar to the bowl. Probably 10 capfuls of vinegar to the medium size bowl I use. I will have to measure the bowl one of these days so I have better measurements for people. I know you are just trying to do what is best for your gliders and that is great. I remember I used to worry about every little thing when I first got my gliders and you are doing even better than me and doing your research before you get your gliders and I am really proud of you for that, because there really is a lot to owning them. Even after this long I still learn something new every day and I'm not always right in what I think I know. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> I sure wish we could prevent SM 100%, but we really can't. Don't get me wrong there are precautions we can take against them getting UTI's, certain parasites, lowering stress, lonliness, etc.., but we still don't know what causes some gliders to SM. This is just a scary part of owning sugar gliders. You are doing great to learn what all you can do to prevent it though. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> Keep up the good research as you are doing an awesome job. I love to see your posts.:)
_________________________
Danielle
owned by 4 dogs and 2 gliders really soon
Formerly known as K & D Exotics


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#21863 - 06/08/04 01:59 AM Re: am i way wrong here? [Re: ]
Bourbon Offline
Serious Glideritis

Registered: 04/01/99
Posts: 5333
Loc: Bee-Bopping round SnakePit USA
the people listed on the SM site are those that have had experience with sm's, as well as those of us who have done extenvie testing and research with them, . as for the site being inaccurate it is not, as for the cause of sm's as Danielle had stated we just don't know, what we do know is that through some of the testing that things have been found, giardia, yeast infections, bacterial infections etc.. now with the females these are the most common things found, they sm the same as the males do, however we do lose fewer females. we still don't know the whys and werefores, but the importance of running the gammet of tests is to elliminate those problems. Some of the problems very well can be secondary problems, but they still would need to be treated. It seems there is no definitive answers yet with the sm's, yes we do have some common grounds, but it doesn't mean they all will do it. the one thing we have found is that awful sound, as soon as you hear it, you know you have a potential sm, so be prepared with the collar, don't wait till it is too late.

any problem can trigger an sm, the one thing we have been and may always be, looking for is what it is exactly that is being triggered off.

the people on that site have all worked with many sm's as well as the vets treatments research etc.. and probably know more than anyone else about it, but they still know very little, we all wish we knew more. but it is all still in the air. there could be many reasons, there could be one, we just don't know about the cause yet. as stated in the article, each case is different, and the awareness of the owner will depend on whether it is a serious painful death, as we all have read about.

All we can do is help those that have to go through it, were can offer information that is not commonly found or known, but all of the advice from the sm community does come with experience. each of us on the list has had at least 1, mary and charlie h has had a few. although the most sm's don't make it, we have made great strides in learning how to know early when there is a problem (the sound) giving us time now to get a collar on them.

although most are gone, our passion remains to try to find out and treat what ever this is. The people who had lost them and continues on the list, are those that want to help share their knowledge that they had gained. and for many of us, that knoweledge is much greater than when we first started. I myself, started at the very beginning, with no knowledge, and no idea as to what to do, no where to go, not knowing what tests needed to be run, and I was very alone, didn't even have a vet with any experience, and only a couple of people that had experienced it, but they also had no knowledge to share.

the people that now have sm's have a place to go where
1. they can get instructions for the e-collars,
2. fill out a complete questionair to help us all gain more information on a case by case basis.
3. they have contact numbers of people that has been there, done that, tried several things that hadn't worked on any of them. They don't feel so alone and lost with no place to turn.
4. they can actually help their vets by having experienced sm vets to contact.

the info on the page is valid, and if nothing else, we will mainly be adding to it, untill we find something definitive, in the meantime, it shows that the sm cases is not a cut and dry problem that is easily, diagnosed, or treated. It does however give someone a great place to start.
_________________________
Baybe,My Roots

SGGA

CustomCruiser

BML

Sugar Glider Genetic Project

321-331-1608

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#21864 - 06/08/04 06:18 AM Re: am i way wrong here? [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


QUOTE FROM SITE: "MYTH... It only happens to males FACT... it does affect both male and females, however the females IF they get them to a vet we can get diagnosis and treatments and they are fine. some of the common problems with the females.. urinary tract infection yeast infection in the cloacal area bacterial infections parasites (commonly Giardia)"
This probably means that these types of diseases cause an itching sensation, thus creating the glider to constantly itch. Not really self-mutalation, but more a relife measure of pain for the glider.
QUOTE FROM SITE: "could be hormonally triggered. " Another thing to recognise when possibly looking into sm. Especially for new gliders, even for us humans sexual maturity is an interesting time full of confusion and emotions. This could be an emotional outlet for the glider.
QUOTE FROM SITE: "some theories we have thought about and definitely have not ruled out" This statement really makes me question the credibility from this site. I have found that the best information I have found on the net yet is right here. When someone states that they are pretty much guessing, i dont think I would trust that advise. I would stick to someone who has delt with it, and has advise that is real.
I saw earlier that you said someone PM'd you and made you "feel like and idiot" I am not trying to do that to you, but i really question the credibility of this site, and would suggest you listen to the senior members here. I am pretty sure they can help out a lot...in fact if it wasnt for them i wouldn't even know what giardia was!!! LOL so please just take what I said as advise, not an attack. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dance.gif" alt="" />

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#21865 - 06/08/04 07:19 AM Re: am i way wrong here? [Re: ]
Charlie H Offline
Glider Slave

Registered: 11/13/03
Posts: 1659
Loc: Wallis Texas
All of you need to keep in mind that the causes for self mutilation can be multiple. The article you are referring to is as good as you will find and the information and sources are reliable. There have been several reasons for gliders to self mutilate and the explanition about giardia being one of the causes is possible. I really have my doubts about us ever discovering one phantom nemotode or any other single cause. We have been searching the cases of self mutilators for years looking for a common link, but it seems that every case is different. There are some common factors, but there does not seem to be any one particular cause for mutilation. We explore every possibility and the self mutilation site is simply an explanition of some of the experiences of working with self mutilators. Call it guessing if you wish, but you are not going to find anyone who can give you the positive input you desire. Bourbon and others that have worked with self mutilators for years have pooled an enormous amount of information about how to care for and treat mutilators. When I posted that I did not know of a case of mutilation being caused by giardia, I did not mean to infer that this was not a possibility. Regardless of what your opinions may be, when you have a glider that mutilates, the Self Mutilation Site is the best source of information.
Charlie H
_________________________
Rescue & Rehabilation
http://www.angelfire.com/tx/glidertree/
[]glidertree@toast.net[/]

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#21866 - 06/08/04 07:43 AM Re: am i way wrong here? [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


punkdafiedstar, if I'm not mistaken, that site was actually made by members of this board. I wanna say Lucy and Bourbon both were involved, but I'm not sure...

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#21867 - 06/08/04 09:54 AM Re: am i way wrong here? [Re: ]
Critter Creations Offline
Glider Addict

Registered: 11/02/00
Posts: 3398
Loc: Rock Falls, IL, USA
punkdafiedstar, Bourbon (one of the senior glider members) is one of the ones that created that website and she has the most experience with self mutilators of anyone, besides maybe Mary. This site is the best site out there for SM and should be highly regarded I think. They are just speaking the truth and the truth is that no one is 100% positive of all the things that cause SM. There are studies being done and hopefully one day we will know exactly what causes it and know how to treat it. As of right now we know certain things that seem to trigger it to happen and sometimes if you fix those things (UTI's, parasites, etc..) then sometimes the glider is cured. These aren't the only reasons though because there are some SM's that we just don't know why they are doing it. I think that is all the site is saying. As far as what to do they do know what to do to help as much as possible. They can't always cure the glider, because of not always knowing why they are doing it. I hope this makes sense. I am not trying to jump down your throat or anything at all. I just wanted to let you and others know that this is the best site out there for SM's and wanted to explain why. I didn't want you or others to think that this site was a bunch of BS because it isn't. I hope this didn't seem rude at all. I can see how you might think it wasn't a reputable website, but I just wanted you to know that it is and it is written by people that actually know the most about SM.
_________________________
Danielle
owned by 4 dogs and 2 gliders really soon
Formerly known as K & D Exotics


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#21868 - 06/08/04 10:36 AM Re: am i way wrong here? [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


I know Bourbon is one of the best people obtain advise from, but I did not recognize anyone elses names, etc. That is why I said if it isnt coming straight from that source then I wouldnt look at it. If it had just Bourbons name on it I would believe in it more since her reputation exceeds her. I knew it was going to sound wrong, but I couldnt think of any other way of putting it. I did not in any way mean to disrespect any of the other members that were on there(I am still new to this site, so I havent met all howeverhowever many members). <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/multi.gif" alt="" />


Edited by punkdafiedstar (06/08/04 10:37 AM)

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#21869 - 06/08/04 10:57 AM Re: am i way wrong here? [Re: ]
Lucy Offline
Serious Glideritis

Registered: 02/14/01
Posts: 7354
Loc: Lexington, KY
Not me, but Bourbon (and Tom as her tech help) has done a terrific job with this, and, along with Mary, are definitely the experts in this area.
_________________________


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#21870 - 06/08/04 11:59 AM Re: am i way wrong here? [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Ah, Mary <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> Lucy, Mary, they're almost the same right <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> Forgive my brain [censored]... Mary, Lucy, you're both great <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

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#21871 - 06/08/04 12:02 PM Re: am i way wrong here? [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Sorry, I didnt know who you guys are. I only recognized bourbon, but that is REALLY good to know!!! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/multi.gif" alt="" />

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#21872 - 06/08/04 12:31 PM Re: am i way wrong here? [Re: ]
Bourbon Offline
Serious Glideritis

Registered: 04/01/99
Posts: 5333
Loc: Bee-Bopping round SnakePit USA
</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />
QUOTE FROM SITE: "some theories we have thought about and definitely have not ruled out" This statement really makes me question the credibility from this site. I have found that the best information I have found on the net yet is right here. When someone states that they are pretty much guessing, i dont think I would trust that advise. I would stick to someone who has delt with it, and has advise that is real.

<hr /></blockquote><font class="post">

I must say with all due respects.. That the Sm site however created physically by Tom and I, it is not even the beginning..

The site itself is comprised of Information, from all mutilators we have worked with in some form or fashion, the sm site is one that is 100% experience, allowing room for others to voice their questions and concerns.

the people on the list that you may not reconize, is

Bourbon - 2 mutilators, 1 currently in home
Mary and Charlie Holcomb - 3 or 4 mutilators currently 2 in the home
Danielle (k and d exotics)and Bindy shared a mutilator
Dawn bucalo - currently has 1 sm who has been e-collar free now 3 years.
Tom currently has 1 sm in his home

other people on this board currently that has sm's.

xfile fan- hers has been e-collar free now for 10 months or more
Gliderslave- she currently has jazz, a new sm who has just undergone his full gammet of tests to only find 3 different bacterial infections, they are still in the game, we don't know whether the infections caused this or if it is something else, so we wait and her vet is trying another angle as well.

To have that much experience in your corner, working as a team for the same goal, in itself is priceless.

each case is different in the approach and the attempt of trying something new that may work. if people want to call that guessing, then so be it, I look at it as a another opportunity.

The work that has been throughout the years, may seem to some as "guessing" but there are many "theroys" both from the sm community as well as everyday owners. theroys listed are theroys we can not prove or disprove beyound a reasonable doubt. but the information is there so others also see that it is an area that we have tried to address to the best of our ability.

As Charlie has stated, we don't know the cause or causes, but each glider offers us more information and more hope. it is very much like a rare cancer, in the fact that there is so little known, but at least there is somethings known.

My first dealing phsycally with an sm came after 5 years of researching and starting a message base just for those owners. which at the time was very few, asking a lot of questions , trying to find common grounds. we didn't have the things we have now, there was no help available to the owners at all, in essence they/we were out on an island millions of miles from anyone, with no food or water souce whatsoever for survival.
All we had was our passion, our desire to find out the cause, work on the rehabilitation and hope for a life without a collar.

Passion and Hope, each owner that came and went aided us in that. none of the information is from someone that has never dealt hands on with this problem. we work directly with the owners, like family, because we are, sometimes we don't agree, but then there are times another test, and other "theroy" which means another chance.

in the sm community the what if game is real, it is very real. when someone reads all that we have already discussed, (by the way our theroys have all been discussed with our vets) and offers yet another theroy, we discuss those theroys with each other as well as our vets, and sometimes labs. we looks for ways to check it out, test it, if it can not be tested then maybe treated as a just in case. hence the shotgunning that we do with the sm's sometimes. when all test results come up negative what then? do we just allow the glider to die? no, we try to cover all of our bases, in hopes something works, but it never stops us from looking for the answers.

Would you rather go to a SM site who claims that they have the answers, based on one account? or go to a site that has the heart, the blood, the sweat, the tears, the joys and the hopes of many sm owners? that is what the sm site is about, what we know to help everyone else, so they too don't have to go through the many trials that hasn't worked. It always leaves the door open for another vet/owner of an sm to open yet another door.

There is information out there, written by a vet, regarding sm's. That information is old, it was based on only a couple of gliders many years ago. sadly too many vets have access to that information, and don't have the foggiest idea where to start, what the common grounds are, what tests to run, or how to modify their living situation so they can live a fairly normal life.

I do want to apologize for getting on a soap box here, but after another tragic sm death, that also could have been avoided, right now I am pretty frustrated. the skeptisim heard in the voice of one, may make others, think the site is not as valuable as we try to make it sound. where in essence, if the site wasn't there, the owners would have no place else to go.

When we speak to the owners of sm's, we do not try to make them feel good, we tell them the way it is, we first try to make sure the glider can do no more damage, then we work on the education, trying to catch them up to where we are now, and let them know right up front, what to expect, what all is entailed, and offer them the choices they have available. then we go to work, sometimes we change things, diets, cages, we make sure they understand the importance of the collar and their relationship with their vet.

IF nothing else, the site will open the door to people who have gone through this, both the good and the bad, it opens it up to save the life of a glider that 5 years ago may not have made it. In fact 5 years ago the odds were 99% the glider would die.

everyone needs to decide within themselves whether the info is helping or hurting, but those that have read, prepared and heeded what that page has written, will tell you the importance of that site and the validity.

There is an excellent post from Jeanie, about her sm Mambo in the sticky called will your glider self mutilate, most of those posts, are from experienced owners. Jeanie admitted she didn't think the sm stuff concerned her. sadly, it was too late before she got the help that was needed. but just as her and many others have done before her, they stress to others the importance of educating yourself, and being prepared.

_________________________
Baybe,My Roots

SGGA

CustomCruiser

BML

Sugar Glider Genetic Project

321-331-1608

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#21873 - 06/08/04 01:13 PM Re: am i way wrong here? [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/littleglider.gif" alt="" /> [:"purple"]oh, wow! bourbon, i would like to sincerely apologize to you and to the other creators of the sm site. i will explain what happened, so hopefully everyone will understand. quite awhile ago, i found the sm site. i recorded the info about sm in a research notebook i keep about sgs. later, someone was mentioning giardia on this board. i answered their post with "glad you caught it early, giardia can cause sm in sgs!" then, just recently, i received a pm from lucy stating that there was not "one iota" of evidence linking giardia with sm. i suspected that lucy was mistaken, and posted the question up on the board, hoping someone could clear this up once and for all. i just wanted to make sure the info in my notebook was correct. i never really doubted the info on the sm site. i am glad the sm site is available, not only to those poor souls who need it, but also to those of us who are trying to learn as much as we can about sgs. i hope the sm site (and glider central) will always be here, as i think these sites help much more than they hurt. punkdafiedstar, i did not take your post as a criticism of me. kandd, i am really glad to hear that you like my posts. i like yours too! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/multi.gif" alt="" /> [/]

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#21874 - 06/08/04 01:29 PM Re: am i way wrong here? [Re: ]
Critter Creations Offline
Glider Addict

Registered: 11/02/00
Posts: 3398
Loc: Rock Falls, IL, USA
So glad that you now know the best place to go to learn about SM and where to go if you ever need help. That site is the best site out there that helps SM's and their owners. Sorry if it seemed like we came down hard on you. We didn't mean to honest. We just wanted you to know that it was written by people that know what they are talking about. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
_________________________
Danielle
owned by 4 dogs and 2 gliders really soon
Formerly known as K & D Exotics


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#21875 - 06/08/04 01:35 PM Re: am i way wrong here? [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/littleglider.gif" alt="" /> [:"purple"]well, i was kind of upset by the way that pm was phrased: "not one iota of evidence." i never doubted the info on the sm site, really. i just hope bourbon forgives me! [/]

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#21876 - 06/08/04 01:55 PM Re: am i way wrong here? [Re: ]
Critter Creations Offline
Glider Addict

Registered: 11/02/00
Posts: 3398
Loc: Rock Falls, IL, USA
My post was more directed at punkdifestar (sorry I misspelled that). He didn't think the site was valid until we explained to him who had written the site. I just was happy that he realized it was valid and a good place to go for information as that is all we were looking for.
Charlesex I don't think Bourbon is upset with you as you didn't do anything wrong. You were only going by what you read and I don't think there has been a case of SM that was caused by giardia (to my knowledge, but that don't mean anything), but that doesn't mean that it couldn't cause SM. Anything that irritates certain areas of the sugar glider could cause SM IMO and giardia like I said could cause diarrhea and if not treated this could lead to SM from the soreness in that area. So you neither one of you were wrong really. It does say on the SM site that giardia could cause SM so you were going by what you read. You did nothing wrong so don't worry about it. I'm sorry the PM hurt you as I know you do your best to try and post factual information and when you are wrong you readily admit that you could be. That's all anyone can ask of anyone on this board.
_________________________
Danielle
owned by 4 dogs and 2 gliders really soon
Formerly known as K & D Exotics


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#21877 - 06/08/04 02:03 PM Re: am i way wrong here? [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/littleglider.gif" alt="" /> [:"purple"]aw, danielle. you are so sweet! when i am ready to get my cage, i think i may buy one of yours, just cause i like ya so much! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/hug2.gif" alt="" /> [/]

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#21878 - 06/08/04 02:09 PM Re: am i way wrong here? [Re: ]
Critter Creations Offline
Glider Addict

Registered: 11/02/00
Posts: 3398
Loc: Rock Falls, IL, USA
Now who is being sweet LOL. When you purchase your cage you go with who has the best cage for the money. Everyone likes different style cages so you with what you want and where you can get the best deal. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> If you are looking for a PVC coated wire cage like we sell than definately take us into consideration as I think Ken builds some of the nicest cages around, but I am biased of course. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
_________________________
Danielle
owned by 4 dogs and 2 gliders really soon
Formerly known as K & D Exotics


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#21879 - 06/08/04 02:19 PM Re: am i way wrong here? [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/littleglider.gif" alt="" /> [:"purple"]i just cannot get over the fact that you (or anyone) has a 5' cage for under $200, and it only weighs 25lb! that may be the one i go for! yes, i do like the pvc coating. i think that is the safest thing for the sgs. sorry to get <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/offtopic.gif" alt="" /> but i am very excited about that! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/multi.gif" alt="" /> [/]

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#21880 - 06/08/04 02:25 PM Re: am i way wrong here? [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />
I know Bourbon is one of the best people obtain advise from, but I did not recognize anyone elses names, etc.

<hr /></blockquote><font class="post">

I am sorry, but I feel comfortable here asking my questions. I already am in a site with the heart and blood to help others. Why would I want to go anywhere else? Why not be sketchy when I dont know who they are? I recognized one name from the site, and I have said that a few times already.
You dont need to try and make me feel guilty for simply not knowing.
If that was not your aim, and I am taking this the wrong way, I am sorry. But it sure does sound like you are.
All I said was beware of sites you are not familiar with, witch you yourself just stated above. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/heartpump.gif" alt="" />

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#21881 - 06/08/04 02:29 PM Re: am i way wrong here? [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


it is spelled Punkdafiedstar, and I am a she, not a he!!! LMAO <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/roflmao.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/roflmao.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/roflmao.gif" alt="" />

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#21882 - 06/08/04 02:35 PM Re: am i way wrong here? [Re: ]
Critter Creations Offline
Glider Addict

Registered: 11/02/00
Posts: 3398
Loc: Rock Falls, IL, USA
Sorry if it came across that way as i didn't mean it that way at all. I guess I don't know how to word what I was trying to get across so I will just leave it alone for fear of making it worse. Just please know that I didn't mean to offend you or make you feel guilty in any way. I was trying to do the opposite and sorry for calling you a he when you are a she. Sometimes you can't tell with the screen names.
<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> Anyway please accept my apologies for making you feel guilty as that was not my intent.
_________________________
Danielle
owned by 4 dogs and 2 gliders really soon
Formerly known as K & D Exotics


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