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#22978 - 06/25/04 06:09 AM Oral Antibiotics! Good Or Bad?
Charlie H Offline
Glider Slave

Registered: 11/13/03
Posts: 1659
Loc: Wallis Texas
It is common practice for the vets in the US to prescribe oral antibiotics for gliders to treat for bacterial infections. I was readint an article on The Marsupial Society of Australia's site that says this is a no no. What are your thoughts on this?

Antibiotics - Due to their reliance on intestinal micro-organisms to digest their food, marsupials should NEVER be given antibiotics by mouth, only by injection.

Lot's of us suppliment the glider's diet with yogurt when giving antibiotics to replinish the good bacteria. Is this sufficient or should we consider injecting the antibiotics?
Charlie H <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/nixweiss.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/nixweiss.gif" alt="" />
_________________________
Rescue & Rehabilation
http://www.angelfire.com/tx/glidertree/
[]glidertree@toast.net[/]

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#22979 - 06/25/04 06:17 AM Re: Oral Antibiotics! Good Or Bad? [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


All mammals use intestinal micro-organisms to digest food. Humans, dogs, and cats are given oral antibiotics with no obvious ill effects. I think it's fine to give antibiotics orally. They are just being overly precautious... Also, I don't think it's worth the amount of stress it would cause a glider to inject the antibiotics.

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#22980 - 06/25/04 06:42 AM Re: Oral Antibiotics! Good Or Bad? [Re: ]
Bourbon Offline
Serious Glideritis

Registered: 04/01/99
Posts: 5333
Loc: Bee-Bopping round SnakePit USA
Charlie, I think the key issue here is the replenishment of the good bacteria, which we try to cover
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Sugar Glider Genetic Project

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#22981 - 06/25/04 06:45 AM Re: Oral Antibiotics! Good Or Bad? [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


I see it as a risk to benefit ratio. Antibiotics do kill gut flora as you pointed out. That is not a good thing, and shouldn't be done lightly. When infections are present, they can kill an animal. Antibiotics can have a positive benefit and lead to an improved outcome. Injected antibiotics can still have detrimental effects on normal flora, so changing the route of administration of the medication does not completely solve the problem.

If we only used injected antibiotics, I can imagine having owners administering the med at home could lead to much worse complications. If this was only done by the DVM in the office, it would be hard to access and more expensive. The end result of that would probably be more gliders being undertreated with poor results.

So, I would give the med orally if you have a good reason. We have certainly seen many, many gliders given oral meds without significant problems, and I am sure oral meds have saved more lives than they have harmed.

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#22982 - 06/25/04 07:13 AM Re: Oral Antibiotics! Good Or Bad? [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Hi,
As a nurse I gave lots of IV's, injections and medications, even injectable antibotics can cause C-diff, or yeast infections. It doesn't seem to matter how you get them, the results are just about the same. Also, some people are more prone to them than others. Most of the doctors I worked with wanted people to eat yogurt anyway to help replenish the "good" bacteria in our intestines.
Angie

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#22983 - 06/25/04 07:35 AM Re: Oral Antibiotics! Good Or Bad? [Re: ]
Charlie H Offline
Glider Slave

Registered: 11/13/03
Posts: 1659
Loc: Wallis Texas
We have given numerous gliders oral antibiotics with no side effects. Their diet is also supplimented with yogurt. I was just curious as to why this advice would be given and if there was any basis for it. In one article I read on antibiotics it stated that they were designed to target the bad bacteria but in the process would also kill off some of the good. Of course, if you search the Web you can find info. to support almost any stand you wish to take on almost any subject. I would like to think that the oral antibiotics are the best way to administer antibiotics to sugar gliders. As was stated earlier, it could be catastrophic having owners inject antibiotics.
Charlie H
_________________________
Rescue & Rehabilation
http://www.angelfire.com/tx/glidertree/
[]glidertree@toast.net[/]

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#22984 - 06/25/04 08:46 AM Re: Oral Antibiotics! Good Or Bad? [Re: ]
Critter Creations Offline
Glider Addict

Registered: 11/02/00
Posts: 3398
Loc: Rock Falls, IL, USA
I totally agree with schlep on this one. I really wouldn't have much more to add to that. It has been proven in many situations that oral antibiotics work to cure many bacterial infections without a problem. I do think that yogurt should be fed the whole time they are on antibiotics as a precautinary measure. I know everyone hasn't done this, but it really should be done. This is a very interesting topic. I look forward to hearing others opinions on this.
_________________________
Danielle
owned by 4 dogs and 2 gliders really soon
Formerly known as K & D Exotics


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#22985 - 06/25/04 10:50 AM Re: Oral Antibiotics! Good Or Bad? [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


I agree with most everyone else. I don't think it makes as much of a difference how the antibiotics are administered as to how often it is given. I think it is the same whith animal doctors as human doctors... they over prescribe antibiotics. There are many times when an antibiotic is necessary to save a life... but there are 10 times more cases where it is given because the doctor doesn't know what else to give you. An example: My Mia had joeys come oop early, she always acted like it hurt her to feed them. I took her to the vet. He didn't do any tests, just prescribed oral antibiotics. Most people trust the word of their doctors and vets.... and if the doctor tells them to take antibiotics they do. But in alot of cases, like Mias, it isn't a bacteria or it will go away in it's own due time. I have noticed that alot of heat has come down on human doctors to limit the antibiotics they prescribe... but what about vets? Do you guys thing they over prescribe too?

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#22986 - 06/25/04 01:45 PM Re: Oral Antibiotics! Good Or Bad? [Re: ]
Pockets Offline
Glider Slave

Registered: 01/02/00
Posts: 2092
Loc: Lone Star State
From my research I would avoid giving orally if at all possible & I would definately want to make sure the <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/littleglider.gif" alt="" />'s were getting the total dosage required & the least amount of damage to their systems.

All my Aussy tech vet materials are still packed but you are more than welcome to visit me in RR when I'm unpacked !

Scouring almost always occurs if oral antibiotics are used.
Yeasts such as candida & torulopsis can take control of the gut if bacteria has been depleted by antibiotics.

The many Australians who I have spoken with thru the years always have advised to offer yogurt as well even with the antibiotics being injected.
I have a call in to a good friend who can/will offer more information

Lisasmith I agree & many others I know also do


Edited by Pockets (06/25/04 01:49 PM)
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#22987 - 06/25/04 11:40 PM Re: Oral Antibiotics! Good Or Bad? [Re: ]
Pockets Offline
Glider Slave

Registered: 01/02/00
Posts: 2092
Loc: Lone Star State
Charlie -
The following information is directly from (Bob Cleaver) whom is a very dear friend & President of the "MSA" Marsupial Society of Australia


Antibiotics will destroy ALL the non resistant gut flora, giving it some problems which are so easily avoided by administering the antibiotic either intravenously or more usually intramusclarly and even using this method you will still need to reintroduce the animal's gut flora after the course of antibiotics.

You can still administer antibiotics orally but it will generally make the animal a lot sicker than is necessary and you will need to reintroduce the animals gut flora during and after treatment until the gut is working properly again.

The old-fashioned way of re-introducing gut flora works very well and is a bit unpleasant and the modern way of using yogurt or lactobaccillus powder is fine. I would lean towards using the lactobaccillus powder myself (available at chemist) and add a pinch to each feed during the period required.
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http://www.marsupialsociety.org

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#22988 - 06/26/04 12:26 AM Re: Oral Antibiotics! Good Or Bad? [Re: Devil_Bunny_Girl]
Bourbon Offline
Serious Glideritis

Registered: 04/01/99
Posts: 5333
Loc: Bee-Bopping round SnakePit USA
to answer the question of the unpleasant way, it is to feed them their own feces, or feces from a healthy glider. the risk of this would be that if the other glider is sick and you not know it, then you also risk re-introducing a bad bacteria back into a system you are trying to clear up.

Pockets please correct me if I am wrong, as I have seen this happen in other species other than gliders.
_________________________
Baybe,My Roots

SGGA

CustomCruiser

BML

Sugar Glider Genetic Project

321-331-1608

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#22989 - 06/26/04 12:53 AM Re: Oral Antibiotics! Good Or Bad? [Re: ]
Critter Creations Offline
Glider Addict

Registered: 11/02/00
Posts: 3398
Loc: Rock Falls, IL, USA
I have seen this done with prairie dogs, but never heard of it being done with sugar gliders. When new pups come in if they are ill we take stools from our very healthy adults and make what they call poop tea from it and feed it to the little babies. This makes them get better much faster. I was appalled when I saw this, but amazed at how well it worked on them.
You are right though it could be dangerous if you are pulling from an animal that is sick and you don't know it. I just have never heard of this at any other time than pup season.
_________________________
Danielle
owned by 4 dogs and 2 gliders really soon
Formerly known as K & D Exotics


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#22990 - 06/26/04 02:53 AM Re: Oral Antibiotics! Good Or Bad? [Re: ]
Pockets Offline
Glider Slave

Registered: 01/02/00
Posts: 2092
Loc: Lone Star State
Why would anyone feed a sick <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/littleglider.gif" alt="" /> its own droppings - now that would defeat the purpose wouldn't it - the risk would be exactly as you have stated above & very uneducated in my opinion.

If someone wanted to attempt this - you would obtain the droppings from a HEALTHY animal & if you didn't know the difference - shame on you!

Bob's comment - </font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />
I see no good reason to feed an animal it's own feces, especially if it's sick

<hr /></blockquote><font class="post">

Many Australian marsupial care-takers do have a recipe that has worked quite successfully & I have been told it worked like a charm -

(Danielle, yes it is also a tea mixture)


Edited by Pockets (06/26/04 03:04 AM)

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#22991 - 06/26/04 05:35 AM Re: Oral Antibiotics! Good Or Bad? [Re: Devil_Bunny_Girl]
Charlie H Offline
Glider Slave

Registered: 11/13/03
Posts: 1659
Loc: Wallis Texas
I have never witnessed it but have read that sugar glider joeys get their intital bacteria by eating the parents feces.

Thanks for the information Pockets. I was leaning toward believing what was posted on the site about the problmns of giving oran antibiotics. The vets in the US do seem to give them to gliders a little too freely. When there is a problem and they cannot figure out the cause, the standard treatment seems to be a round of oral antibiotics. They do not however stress the importance of supplimenting the diet to maintain the balance of bacteria in the system. Maybe there is more of a need for the probiotics than we realize. With a little educating the vets and public probiotics could be a very useful tool for us.
Charlie H
_________________________
Rescue & Rehabilation
http://www.angelfire.com/tx/glidertree/
[]glidertree@toast.net[/]

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#22992 - 06/26/04 01:17 PM Re: Oral Antibiotics! Good Or Bad? [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


And for just another comment:

As a human baby doc, we see kids come in with life-threatening infections frequently. Menningitis, pneumonia, sepsis and others. So we use antibiotics. Do we over-use them? Absolutely! A preemie in distress is having breathing problems most likely from lung immaturity. But infection presents exactly the same way. And a leading cause of premature labor is infection. There is no practical way to tell the difference between infection and lung immaturity or both occuring together. If I guess that it is not infection and don't prescribe the med, the baby's immature immune system will not fight it well enough and timely enough to save him/her.

So it is with your sick pet. When they are stressed to the point of decompensating system balances, they sometimes do not have enough reserve to recover from an untreated infection. Faced with that dilemma, treat or don't treat with antibiotics, a life on the line, most error in favor of not missing the chance to help something that can be helped and using the med over not treating and missing the chance to save a life.

Some people are into probiotics and yogurt to re-introduce gut flora. I believe in gut flora as a good thing, and I respect its value. But I have never seen a patient who did not rapidly recover their flora even if these were not used. A newborn just arriving into the world without flora becomes colonized with bacteria and develops flora quickly.

Oral antibiotics don't completely sterilize the gut, and flora reaccumulates quickly after ending the med. I'm not arguing against yogurt, or probiotics. But animals on their own will replenish flora faster than I can do the math to calculate the rate. So if you haven't used these after antibiotics, all is not lost. They may help, but avoid causing diarrhea with them, which can burn the absorptive surface and also cause problems.

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#22993 - 06/26/04 09:30 PM Re: Oral Antibiotics! Good Or Bad? [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


For a discussion of antibiotics, this link may be interesting: Antibiotic Primer

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#22994 - 06/26/04 10:48 PM Re: Oral Antibiotics! Good Or Bad? [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/yelclap.gif" alt="" /> Very helpful!! Thanks!! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/yelclap.gif" alt="" />

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#22995 - 06/27/04 08:18 AM Re: Oral Antibiotics! Good Or Bad? [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Last September, oral antibiotics kept me from losing my entire lot of gliders. I lost 5 before they isolated the bacterium, listeria. Once the proper antibiotics were started, they stopped dying and started gaining weight again. I'm a believer in oral antibiotic treatment, when necessary.

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