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#23151 - 06/29/04 11:53 AM E collar Mania
Charlie H Offline
Glider Slave

Registered: 11/13/03
Posts: 1659
Loc: Wallis Texas
While I am all for getting gliders proper medical treatment ASAP when they become ill the use of the e collar seems to be over stated lately. There has been so much talk of self mutilation recently that every time a glider sneezes someone is hollering get an e collar on it. I have noticed people filling out self mutilation questionaires on Glider Health when there was no indication what so ever that the glider was going to mutilate. I do not wish to under emphasize that there are times when an e collar is necessary, but if you think there is a chance for mutilation, spend time with your glider and watch it. If it starts to mutilate you will know it and then put an e collar on it. Other wise an e collar is only going to add stress to an already ill glider.
Charlie H
_________________________
Rescue & Rehabilation
http://www.angelfire.com/tx/glidertree/
[]glidertree@toast.net[/]

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#23152 - 06/29/04 12:10 PM Re: E collar Mania [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Great post! It's amazing how many people freak out at the littlest things with gliders. Despite everything, gliders manage quite well in captivity and rarely self mutilate. Just because there are gliders out there that have self mutilated, doesn't mean yours will. Like Charlie said, if you are worried that your glider might self mutilate, keep an eye on him. Watch for any unusual behavior and do whatever you can to make him comfortable (i.e.: get another glider, offer more/different toys, get a larger cage, offer a proven diet, etc.).

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#23153 - 06/29/04 12:12 PM Re: E collar Mania [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Wonderfully said Charlie!
Angie

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#23155 - 06/29/04 03:30 PM Re: E collar Mania [Re: ]
Critter Creations Offline
Glider Addict

Registered: 11/02/00
Posts: 3398
Loc: Rock Falls, IL, USA
Thanks Tom. I feel the same way. I would much rather stress a glider out and make sure it is ok than to have it do real damage to itself. There are definite signs of a SM and if any of those are present an e-collar should get on the glider until it can be seen by a vet to make sure it is or isn't Self mutilating. I say it is much better to be safe than sorry. If the glider is allowed to chew at itself until the owner is sure this is what it is doing than real damage could be done as most owners are a tad freaked out and in denial until it is too late half the time. I agree with Tom completely on this one. If there is even one sign of SM an e-collar should be put on until they are sure that it is not SM.
_________________________
Danielle
owned by 4 dogs and 2 gliders really soon
Formerly known as K & D Exotics


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#23156 - 06/29/04 04:57 PM Re: E collar Mania [Re: ]
Charlie H Offline
Glider Slave

Registered: 11/13/03
Posts: 1659
Loc: Wallis Texas
If a glider is ill and you are carrying it or have it's cage near and monitor it there is not a need for an e collar unless you actually see some indication that the glider is a mutilator. This is usually accomplished by rolling up in a ball to chew at themselves and making a crabbing noise that sounds similar to a glider fighting.

And FYI a selfmutilator does, at times chew at their tail. Gliders will mutilate at various parts of the body, depending on what the reason for the mutilation is. The one most discussed is the mutilator that chews at the area around the rectum. But gliders will mutilate the toes, tail,
penis, chest, and any other part of the body that is injured or infected.

As far as Romans838 is concerned, she is a new glider owner and a tad nervous with the babies. She loves them and is taking good care of them and was just curious about a certain sound. As you all know it is impossible to duplicate a gliders sound in type. I know these gliders well and they are healthy little gliders that she has had for only four days. Not likely an 11 week old healthy glider is going to start mutilating in four days! As the result of her just asking a simple question the whole thread got blown out of the water. Everyone jumped on the bandwagon and you had this woman ready to call 911. If you are going to be giving people advice about glider illnesses, more information is required. Please ask a few more questions before hitting the panic button.

I do not think there is in any way an epidimic of self mutilators. Sure there are more than there were a few years ago, but there are a lot more gliders. And there are a lot more people visiting the boards. If you take into consideration the few mutilators we hear of and all the gliders that are out there, the percentage is very low. It does in no way mean that an owner should not be vigilant in watching their gliders for signs of mutilation. But virus infections, bacterial infections, dogs,cats, and carelessness kill a lot mor gliders than self mutilation.

Romans838 do not stop posting because of this incident. This is a good place to learn and a great board. The communication sometimes gets a little confusing between posts but in the end is usually straightened out.
Charlie H
_________________________
Rescue & Rehabilation
http://www.angelfire.com/tx/glidertree/
[]glidertree@toast.net[/]

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#23157 - 06/29/04 05:14 PM Re: E collar Mania [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


I too would rather be over cautions. If for one second I feel one of my gliders is showing signs of SM than on with the e-collar. It's just not worth taking the chance of a major problem staring. IMO the one time someone fails to recommend an e-collar at first signs of SM and the glider does major damage or dies, fingers will point. So there's no harm at being too careful, at least that's how I feel.

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#23158 - 06/29/04 05:28 PM Re: E collar Mania [Re: ]
cyndiekb Offline
Serious Glideritis

Registered: 10/08/03
Posts: 5916
Loc: Cornersville TN I'M HOME :)
I thought I was seeing alot of post that didn't quite fit. There were way to many almost all alike too. Glad I was not off my rocker again. heheh
Yes it is always best to watch for SM but lets not all jump to that as the reason and slam an E collar on our babies. Great thread!
_________________________
cyndiekb

I heart & miss you HALEY

My runaways 4/04 Lilo, 5/04 Dash & Angel

angel Sprite Says GO STEALTH!! at
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#23159 - 06/29/04 05:41 PM Re: E collar Mania [Re: ]
Srlb Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 10/30/03
Posts: 16744
Loc: St. Johns, Florida
This is in NO WAY to show disrespect to anyone, but to learn by the case in question for myself and all others that read these threads.

First of all, it doesnt matter how long a person has had a glider, we have all learned that a glider hides its illness well correct? and most times hides it to the point where it is on the verge of being too late to help the poor thing out correct? so with that being said, Charlie, even though the glider seemed healthy, is it not possible that the glider could have had a *hidden health issue* that you or anyone else was not aware of?
Yes, you do take extremely good care of your gliders and you are very well known and respected for that, however, that does not mean that it could not happen to one you had or one that was bought from you. It can happen to ANY glider Any where and at ANY time. It does not mean just because a glider is only 11 weeks old it does not have the will or thoughts to SM as one say 6 months old would.
Just because there are not any (or maybe there are) cases of young ones doing this does not mean it has not happened.

With the way that she was posting last night, she came across to MANY of us that the glider was (in her words) screaming and his rear WAS red. You have experience in SM just like others do and you know that those are two very very likely signs. So for you to come down on those who are in it for the good of the glider I think is a bad call on your part.
Just because she is a good, caring glider lover/owner, does not mean her glider will never SM. Nor does it mean if he did it was anything to do with her and the way she raised them.
If you think she was in a state of panic, how do you think she made a LOT of people on this board feel with her *simple and short* responses when asked questions...

you ask questions to learn, to seek help, and quite frankly I feel that is all anyone was out to do. Was to try and help her and to teach her but with such vague answers not many other things could be thought of.

I agree, I would rather have an ecollar on my baby if there is the slightest possiblity until vet care can be obtained. Think about it 12:30 in the am and your glider screams and has a red rear, you dont put on an ecollar cause you are going to *watch* him and keep an eye on him. You dose off unknowingly and wake to find your glider has chewed a hole in himself....is it worth the risk?
_________________________
Peggy
Critter Love
Critter LoveŽ Diet Center

If you want to know what a person is like, watch how he treats others.

You'll never know what the outcome is if you don't step up and try.


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#23160 - 06/29/04 06:00 PM Re: E collar Mania [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Wonderfully said! I would use the e-collar at first signs of SM because of just what you said...I would so afraid if I fell asleep I would wake up to find the glider had done horrible damage. It just seems to me being too safe is never the wrong decision.

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#23161 - 06/29/04 06:04 PM Re: E collar Mania [Re: ]
cyndiekb Offline
Serious Glideritis

Registered: 10/08/03
Posts: 5916
Loc: Cornersville TN I'M HOME :)
Okay I must have missed something I was meaning over the few last weeks, now I see a post more recently is the true cause of this post. We have had in the past, a few people stressed because someone kept saying SM get an ecoller on when in fact it was no where close to that extrem. I don't know about the recent post but each owner needs to make the choise themselve with out having the poo scared out of them when not necessary. We all tend to want to save the glider and sometimes forget the glider mommies and daddies that we are freek-ing out.
_________________________
cyndiekb

I heart & miss you HALEY

My runaways 4/04 Lilo, 5/04 Dash & Angel

angel Sprite Says GO STEALTH!! at
AtticWorx

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#23162 - 06/29/04 06:32 PM Re: E collar Mania [Re: ]
Critter Creations Offline
Glider Addict

Registered: 11/02/00
Posts: 3398
Loc: Rock Falls, IL, USA
My intentions were not to scare anyone that is why I wanted her to call me so we could discuss it over the phone where we could be more clear about what was going on. Then when she wouldn't call my fear began to set in that this person may go to sleep and this glider may harm itself based on what I had been told so i felt that I needed to be urgent to get my point across. If I scared anyone I apologize for that as that was not my intent. My intent was to help the glider and the glider owner. That was so why I wanted to do this over the phone. That way I could have known better what sound was made and what was going on with his tail, etc.. I never once said that a SM will not bite his tail as I know very well they do as I have taken care of one that did. The last time I was calm in a similar situation the glider ended up dying from SM and I am never going to let that happen again if I can help it. I asked all the right questions if you look back and wasn't getting any answers to those questions that was why I thought the phone would be so much better. That is pretty much all I have to say on the subject. i think there is no reason to argue over such things.
_________________________
Danielle
owned by 4 dogs and 2 gliders really soon
Formerly known as K & D Exotics


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#23163 - 06/29/04 06:33 PM Re: E collar Mania [Re: ]
Lucy Offline
Serious Glideritis

Registered: 02/14/01
Posts: 7354
Loc: Lexington, KY
I agree with Charlie, as my post in the other thread indicates. But out of respect for Romans838, I hope that we stop talking about the specific thread and her specific situation, since she's asked that it be dropped. (When I was a newcomer, I found myself in the middle of a controversy that was so embarrassing and awful that I almost gave up on gliders and this community). I hope she'll perservere through this and continue to post and learn and enjoy the community here.

That being said, it almost seems like there are two general opinions:

1. Put an ecollar on your glider before the glider has shown any real sign of damage, and is starting to lick at the cloaca or tail and emits a scary sound, or 2. Wait until there is a clear danger before putting on an ecollar.

While I tend to be in the second camp, I understand why people would react at what COULD be a sign but might not be. And it's probably good to discuss, but I believe it should be discussed for the purpose of finding a middle ground, and not polarizing the community. Do you think that's possible, or is this too black and white an issue?

This is the most animated I've seen people over anything but diets or personalities in a long time. It makes me a little scared that the issue could divide the community, and I don't want to see that happen (it's divided enough already!). Is there a concensus, or a middle ground that we can offer people who ask questions where this will come up?
_________________________


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#23164 - 06/29/04 06:45 PM Re: E collar Mania [Re: ]
Karin Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 09/06/01
Posts: 11583
Loc: Sycamore Illinois
Almost looks like it's darned if you do, and darned if you don't in this case. I think if we stick to the true purpose of this board, for the good of the glider, we can't go wrong, just differ in opinions occasionnally.

Karin
_________________________
Miss Lily and Bud
Prada and Armani
Tessa, Deuce and Cami

Tira and Misu angel Deja and Vu

Glider Daydreams



"Life is not about waiting for the storm to pass...It is about learning to
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#23165 - 06/29/04 06:56 PM Re: E collar Mania [Re: ]
cyndiekb Offline
Serious Glideritis

Registered: 10/08/03
Posts: 5916
Loc: Cornersville TN I'M HOME :)
Well said Karin <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/yelclap.gif" alt="" /> I think that is what we are about! I'm sure we just want what is best for all.
_________________________
cyndiekb

I heart & miss you HALEY

My runaways 4/04 Lilo, 5/04 Dash & Angel

angel Sprite Says GO STEALTH!! at
AtticWorx

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#23166 - 06/29/04 07:00 PM Re: E collar Mania [Re: ]
Bourbon Offline
Serious Glideritis

Registered: 04/01/99
Posts: 5333
Loc: Bee-Bopping round SnakePit USA
Okay with all due respects to all involved I must have my say here.

Charlie, you know I love you and respect you with all of my heart, and I do understand why you yourself was not concerned.. although you of all people know that sm's are not a finger pointer for bad breeding..

Nor do they have to chew to make the noise first, nor does any damage have to be done. and yes they can sm as early as 5 weeks oop, in some of the cases of old that dr pye had worked with. hence.. his project.

now with that being said, I must also say, that I thought that danielle and x-file fan had done the proper thing here, they both offered their phone numbers to help her ascertain the problem, and danielle especially was asking many questions regarding the sounds and other signs before saying anything about the collar.

With that being said, I have to also say, that if you were not the one that sold that joey, or if you didn't know her at all, just as the rest of us, you also would be sitting back as I had done waiting on the responses to the questions,. I watched, but danielle and jen was right there going back and forth with her, trying to get the personal contact going to help.

personally, I read that post, strickly objective, knowing what I know, but on the other hand keeping in mind it could be something else, just as Danielle had done. If I was there instead of her, My responces would have been the same. this being based on many things.

the sound as described by the owner (I am still not convinced this couldn't possibly be a problem)

the redness,
as well as the fact that she was concerned.

the concern should in itself never be taken lightly, especially for those that may not know what to expect, which I must say was handled real well by danielle. as she was trying to get more info. and also offered direct contact.

now my take on all this, is that we can only go by what is being written, and even though clearly explained(so one may think) doesn't mean it is clearly explained so others know exactly what you are saying, the sound is difficult to describe, and it is harder if you don't know how to describe it.

I am sorry if the general concensus thinks that thread was blown out of proportion, I do not, not in that case. I have seen some in the past where they were blatenly inaccurate, but not neccessarily in this case.

also to expect an owner to stay right with their glider 24/7 to be ready for something like this is really being unrealistic.

The sad thing is Charlie, if this does turn out to be a case of SM (not saying it is), then where will this post lead?

we must always be prepared, but those in the sm community, also are very leery, but I also notice they are not real quick to jump on these posts, if it is nothing to be concerned with. with that taken into consideration, then the next step would be, to definitly, stress the importance IN THIS CASE , is to have a collar handy, just in case it really is an SM, not being prepared is as dangerous as not knowing.

Lucy, as for you being in the second camp, well I will tell you, the next time we have one that is "clearly" in danger I will get you on the phone, and work with these people that have never had to collar a glider, this call will take several hours, and the intensity of the situation hightens each time the collar comes off.

It is easy for those of us that have experience, but to have an inexperienced persona wait till the last minute, could very well cost that glider it's life. this is an area, where the experience we have , we have to try to remember what it was like our first time, when the adrenaline is pumping, when the glider is trying like heack to bite through themselves and chewing into our hands instead.

I will just about guarantee that after the first call, it is nothing you would want to wait on again. especially if the glider gets it off while they are sleeping.

at least with a collar on it buys the glider time to be seen by the vet in the morning, without it, they are playing the guessing game, is it? or isn't it? always keep in mind... what if it is??? and you are having the owner wait till there is a "clear" need..

we have found the sound to be a warning.. that is where the need is. not after the damage is done. if you wait that long your chances are slim to nil...

is this a black and white issue? I don't know, what I do know is that the diffeence between damage and no damage, is. you ask anyone in the sm community if they would rather be talking an owner through an e-collar placement, before damage or after damage.. their answer would be clear

by the way PDJen glad to see you back!!!
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Baybe,My Roots

SGGA

CustomCruiser

BML

Sugar Glider Genetic Project

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#23167 - 06/29/04 07:12 PM Re: E collar Mania [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


I think every glider owner should have an e-collar or materials to make an e-collar handy at all times... It's like humans having band-aids. I also believe that people hear tend to jump to the worst possible scenario and work backwards. What happened to logical progression? You know... finding out the whole story, then ruling out possibilities one by one? I also believe that people are drawing way to much attention to self mutilators. Yes, their story should be shared, but it should not be flaunted. By drawing a lot of attention to self mutilation that's going to make it the first thing that jumps in people mind when their gliders does something the slightest bit unusual. If people automatically assume that their gliders are going to self mutilate, they may actually the gliders true ailment...

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#23168 - 06/29/04 07:13 PM Re: E collar Mania [Re: ]
gliderdad79 Offline
Owner

Registered: 02/19/04
Posts: 15514
Loc: Long Island, NY
Well said Bourbon, glade to see you chime in on this. There have been several cases recently that sm was brought up when it shouldn't have. But i strongly believe this was the time to bring up sm and Danielle and the rest did a great job handling this.


Edited by gliderdad79 (06/29/04 07:15 PM)
_________________________
Eddie

In the Tropics somewhere between the port of indecision and southeast of disorder!

"Great people talk about ideas. Average people talk about things. Small people talk about other people."

One day your life will flash before your eyes. Make sure its worth watching!

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#23169 - 06/29/04 08:21 PM Re: E collar Mania [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Posting in a community like this where many people have very stong opinions can be difficult for somebody new to the community. When I first posted on this board three years ago it was regarding possible self mutilation. I was told not to put on an e-collar that it would stress the glider too much. Well, I listened and I did not put on an e-collar and for that matter did not even make one. If I had somebody that had been as diligent to tell me to apply an e-collar when I first heard that horrible sound my glider might still be alive today. When I finally did receive the advice to apply the e-collar it was too late. This was the first collar I had ever tried to make and the first time I had ever tried to apply a collar. I took some very strong bites and have scars from taking those bites, but in all my own stress and my gliders stress I could not get the e-collar on the glider. I would rather cause my glider a few hours of stress until I can get to the vet than to see another glider mutilate itself. It does not matter how good of an owner that you are or how many hours you spend with your glider this can still happen. My glider was with me many, many hours a day and was very well bonded to me, but self mutilation still happened. It can happen to an older glider or a younger glider. I suggest every owner make at least one collar and find out how to apply it. If I am ever under the thought that a glider even might be SM then I will not ever hesitate to suggest a collar.

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