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#232582 - 03/11/07 03:31 PM answer from healesville sancuary last night
the gliders angel Offline
Glider Addict

Registered: 08/08/01
Posts: 3058
Loc: u.s.a.
i just got an answer from healesville last evening regarding why we have so much sickness among our gliders. the answer was the gliders in the US live in unnatural conditions and diet is wrong. theyre baby food only contains 35 percent iron compared to our 45 percent. their diet is different from ours they include sustagen dry cat food almonds calcivet and soluvet which are bird vits among other things. they dont use alot of cat food either. they never had a sick glider since breeding in captivity which they started in 1960. something must be done here to end the sickness among out gliders and i think according to them diet plays a big role.

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#232584 - 03/11/07 03:36 PM Re: answer from healesville sancuary last night [Re: the gliders angel]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Can you post their reply on a website & link us to it please?

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#232586 - 03/11/07 03:43 PM Re: answer from healesville sancuary last night [Re: ]
Xglider Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 01/18/05
Posts: 11157
Loc: Tampa, FL
diet is definitely a crucial part of their lives… please do link us to their response …
_________________________
* ~ * John * ~ * Sorry store is closed at this time.. <br>
Link -> ~~ XtremeGlider ~~ Home of the original Re~set Toys! ~~ <br>
Oct 2012 update.. miss my gliders and my
glider family and think of my friends often!!!

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#232657 - 03/11/07 06:34 PM Re: answer from healesville sancuary last night [Re: Xglider]
Anonymous
Unregistered


i know i'm kinda a newb, but i wanted to know, what is halesville? and what do they suggest the diet SHOULD be...

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#232788 - 03/11/07 09:06 PM Re: answer from healesville sancuary last night [Re: ]
the gliders angel Offline
Glider Addict

Registered: 08/08/01
Posts: 3058
Loc: u.s.a.
i was on instant messenger with them. just punch in on the computer healesville sancuary. and e mail them. anothere good website is sugar-lumps in the UK. also shropshire-exotics

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#232793 - 03/11/07 09:14 PM Re: answer from healesville sancuary last night [Re: the gliders angel]
the gliders angel Offline
Glider Addict

Registered: 08/08/01
Posts: 3058
Loc: u.s.a.
healesville sanctuary is an australian zoo that has been breeding glidres in captivity since 1960 never had an ill glider or hlp.

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#232795 - 03/11/07 09:16 PM Re: answer from healesville sancuary last night [Re: the gliders angel]
Anonymous
Unregistered


I find it very hard to believe that they've "never had an ill glider or hlp" in 47 years.

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#232796 - 03/11/07 09:19 PM Re: answer from healesville sancuary last night [Re: ]
Dancing Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 09/10/04
Posts: 22746
Loc: 80 acres of paradise in KS
I find it difficult to believe as well. I also wonder what life span they are having with their gliders.
_________________________
620-704-9109
Judge not until you have walked in their shoes and lived their lives. What you see online is only part of the story.

I could have missed the pain
But I'd of had to miss the dance


The soul would have no rainbow if the eyes had no tears.

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#232799 - 03/11/07 09:27 PM Re: answer from healesville sancuary last night [Re: Dancing]
Anonymous
Unregistered


This is a link that I found that is supposedly what they feed:

http://www.sugargliders.org/gliderinfo/diets/mcdonald.htm


Edited by Sunniedde (03/11/07 09:28 PM)
Edit Reason: Because I can't spell

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#232844 - 03/11/07 10:51 PM Re: answer from healesville sancuary last night [Re: ]
SugarBlossoms Offline
Serious Glideritis

Registered: 02/23/06
Posts: 5830
Loc: USA
I also speak with them regulary and others about the gliders over there compared to here on living conditions and diets. I know many others have and still do also.

I have been told the same for years, not to feed the diets that have are said to be proven here as the only proven diets are the ones they have. They claim they never see sick gliders, only injured gliders brought in from being attacked by cats, owls and other predators. The gliders they raise, they say have never gotten HLP or any liver problems, the oldest living passed away at 19 years old.

I was told to never feed additional vitamins of any kind and that if our gliders were fed properly, there was no need for the supplements used here as they cause liver damage and other health problems from overdosing. Just like in humans, if the proper diet is fed, there is no need for supplementations. None is used in Australia.

Variety is the key and many natural foods from there also. The gliders in the US for the most part don't have adequate housing either. They say too many people have lessoned the living space for them in order to breed them out, thus causing more problems.

I've heard the same things from different vets in Australia, the Marsupial Society and the Healsville Santuary for years. (a few friends over there too) I don't know how to exactly duplicate what they have (without moving there) but we have been trying as close as possible for years now and it seems to be working. No sickness except a roundworm. (yuck) That was cleared up immediately.
_________________________
Keeper of Handprints on my Heart, You left your Footprints on my soul.
My precious loves that left to quickly, Peanut, Katie
Isabella, Kiwi, Bonnie and Monroe.

Spread your wings and glide free of pain,
Until the day I see you again.

God speed my precious angels. I love you. Mama.

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#232850 - 03/11/07 10:59 PM Re: answer from healesville sancuary last night [Re: SugarBlossoms]
SugarBlossoms Offline
Serious Glideritis

Registered: 02/23/06
Posts: 5830
Loc: USA
Our honey here is much sweeter and a different type of honey than in Australia. The gliders should be getting Acacia gum and Bee pollen as they do there as both contain natural vitamin and mineral sources they get in the wild and in captivity there. I've been told to use enrichment things rather than some of the cute toys we get. (I do both, can't resist the cute toys! lol) Apple branches and Manzanita branches are great. Trying to replicate a small forest, tall things, swinging vines, etc.
_________________________
Keeper of Handprints on my Heart, You left your Footprints on my soul.
My precious loves that left to quickly, Peanut, Katie
Isabella, Kiwi, Bonnie and Monroe.

Spread your wings and glide free of pain,
Until the day I see you again.

God speed my precious angels. I love you. Mama.

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#232852 - 03/11/07 11:09 PM Re: answer from healesville sancuary last night [Re: SugarBlossoms]
the gliders angel Offline
Glider Addict

Registered: 08/08/01
Posts: 3058
Loc: u.s.a.
all the aussie vets i spoke with told me the same thing no vitamins. all the vets there and the people in this country i no that dont use vits have very old gliders. they all tell me in australia stop making it so complicated all u need is a protein source fruit veggies and 4 times a week bugs. i get the same answer from many vets. they also get hard branches to chew on for their teeth to prevent dental problems im told.

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#232872 - 03/11/07 11:33 PM Re: answer from healesville sancuary last night [Re: the gliders angel]
Srlb Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 10/30/03
Posts: 16734
Loc: St. Johns, Florida
Although I agree the whole vitamin thing does worry me, however, PLEASE keep in mind that in AUSTRALIA, they have different kinds of fauna and insects to feed that we can NOT get here in the states. Therefore, substitutions HAVE to be made. Not to mention the gliders that were bred here would have a different genetic build up than those down there. If you look at pics of the gliders in Australia, they are MUCH larger than ours, they have much smaller noses (much like my Dashers) and the enviormental surroundings are completely different. As Sugarblossoms stated, the only way we can feed what they do would be to move to Australia.

So with that in mind, and not being able to access MOST of the stuff they do for diets, what do you all suggest? We cant just eliminate everything we offer.

That is why I LOVE the HPW. It comes right FROM AUSTRALIA, is used down there in many places and no additional vitamins or calcium is required. And it is well known that it is a product used by them.

This is why research is sooo important.
_________________________
Peggy
Critter Love
Critter Love® Diet Center

If you want to know what a person is like, watch how he treats others.

You'll never know what the outcome is if you don't step up and try.


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#232882 - 03/11/07 11:49 PM Re: answer from healesville sancuary last night [Re: Srlb]
SugarBlossoms Offline
Serious Glideritis

Registered: 02/23/06
Posts: 5830
Loc: USA
Lets move to Australia! (j/k, lol)

Peggy, that is what I use also and the Acacia gum, Bee Pollen and varieties usually as seasonal of many fruits, veggies, yogurt (plain and some others that are flavored or fruited), Chicken breast (boiled), eggs, boiled or scrambled with a teeny tiny bit of real cheese and Ensure or milk to make em fluffy and tastier. Sometimes, a piece of dried fruit, fruit smoothies, Cheerios for a once in awhile snack, pumpkin, squashes (cooked in water) and either Superworms or mealworms. I have quite a few other things I give them occasionally. Of course, not all at once and not all of the time.

I can even deal with the fly pupae (serious yuck!) but I can't bring myself to even think of a day old chick. (they are just way too cute and so are the little mice) I could only do that if it were a life and death situation.

One thing I am very curious about is that they give live crickets, hoppers, beatles and moths among other bugs. I'll have to ask what they think of the Aflatoxin thing. I had asked about corn before and they did say like all foods people and animals eat, their are always risks. From what I've told over the years though, they don't even have problems with salmonella the way we do.

_________________________
Keeper of Handprints on my Heart, You left your Footprints on my soul.
My precious loves that left to quickly, Peanut, Katie
Isabella, Kiwi, Bonnie and Monroe.

Spread your wings and glide free of pain,
Until the day I see you again.

God speed my precious angels. I love you. Mama.

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#232903 - 03/12/07 12:45 AM Re: answer from healesville sancuary last night [Re: SugarBlossoms]
silverwolf Offline
Glider Slave

Registered: 06/15/05
Posts: 1732
Loc: Utah
silb what is the hpw that you mentioned I am wondering is that a vitamin or something different? Also what do they think of giving them eucalyptus branches and leaves to chew on? I am just curious about this I would really like to know more.

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#232916 - 03/12/07 01:23 AM Re: answer from healesville sancuary last night [Re: the gliders angel]
the gliders angel Offline
Glider Addict

Registered: 08/08/01
Posts: 3058
Loc: u.s.a.
to answer dancing s question. i can only take their word as far as they said they never had a glider sick there only sick gliders they have had were hurt by a dog or got hurt outside and were rehabilitated. i know we cant copy everything from their diet but can get some things like the raisins almonds once a wk. we can even get the calcivet and soluvet that is used in their nektar mix which why wasnt this used in the first place in our diet here it can be purchased online. they also feed snow peas i was told we can get them here.

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#232934 - 03/12/07 01:51 AM Re: answer from healesville sancuary last night [Re: silverwolf]
Dancing Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 09/10/04
Posts: 22746
Loc: 80 acres of paradise in KS
WHPS is Wambaroo High Protien Suppliment. It is the key ingredient in PML. I too feed WHPS but not PML. I really think that the Wambaroo is such an awesome thing to have here to feed them. It is imported from Australia and is made for marsupials.

diet is always going to be a controversial subject here in the US simply because we do not have the ability to feed what they would naturally find in the wild. The extensive lab testing needed is so prohibitivly expensive that an absolute nutritional break down is not likely to happen. As Peggy said also, the gliders we have here in captivity ARE different NOW than their wild counter parts. Some of our "wild caught" gliders didn't even come from Australia but New Zealand or Indonesia. Not to mention that wild glider's diets vary seasonally (due to bio availablity) and even from year to year based on weather patterns.

So, which area of natural flora and fauna do we try to mimic? The best we can do is look at what has been done already, the pros and cons about each thing. But not just look at the surface of each thing but break it down.

diet isn't simply the calcium to phosphrous ratio but so many other things like iron, vits A,B,C,D,E, K and so on as well as all the minerals (magnasium, etc) and how each one works with or against the others. Many of the diets that we are feeding are leading to longer healthier lives for gliders HERE than what was originally being fed to captive gliders 20 years ago. We are not seeing as many diet related problems as back then. It is an evolution in process.
_________________________
620-704-9109
Judge not until you have walked in their shoes and lived their lives. What you see online is only part of the story.

I could have missed the pain
But I'd of had to miss the dance


The soul would have no rainbow if the eyes had no tears.

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#232947 - 03/12/07 02:16 AM Re: answer from healesville sancuary last night [Re: Dancing]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Originally Posted By: SugarBlossoms
I was told to never feed additional vitamins of any kind... Just like in humans, if the proper diet is fed, there is no need for supplementations. None is used in Australia.


Okay... I guess I'm confused confused ... If they say they use Sustagen, Calcivet, and Soluvet, then how can they say not to use supplements or that none is used in Australia??? Because last I checked, Sustagen, Calcivet, and Soluvet are all vitamin supplements... dunno

Also, I know Healesville has been around a long time and they've had gliders a long time, but it always bothers me when anyone says theirs is the only good diet and all other diets are bad or unhealthy. I'm sure they've got a very good diet, but that doesn't mean there aren't other good ones out there too.

I also find it highly suspicious that they've never had any health issues. I mean even in the wild with a glider eating their proper, natural diet, there's still going to be an occassional health problem. Have they truly done necropsies on every glider death to be sure of exactly what it died from to know there was truly "no health issue"? That would mean that every death was either due to injury or old age. I find that pretty hard to believe! They truly can say they've never had a bacterial infection, viral infection, organ failure, cancer, etc. etc. etc.???
I too would be curious to know what they consider old age and just what age their gliders are normally living to. Okay, so they had one live to 19... what about all their others? Has every single one of their gliders lived to 10+ years (except verified injuries)?

I also think they're taking a pretty large, unsubstantiated leap to say that all the diets over here in the US are bad and that's what's causing the health issues here or that over supplementation is the problem. There haven't been any long term studies on any of the diets being used to even come close to those conclusions yet.

Just my own humble opinions... tounge


Originally Posted By: Dancing
... Some of our "wild caught" gliders didn't even come from Australia but New Zealand or Indonesia. Not to mention that wild glider's diets vary seasonally (due to bio availablity) and even from year to year based on weather patterns... So, which area of natural flora and fauna do we try to mimic?...

Many of the diets that we are feeding are leading to longer healthier lives for gliders HERE than what was originally being fed to captive gliders 20 years ago. We are not seeing as many diet related problems as back then. It is an evolution in process.

Well said Teresa! thumb

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#232958 - 03/12/07 05:36 AM Re: answer from healesville sancuary last night [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


My biggest fear is people are going to stop giving thier gliders vitamins when they hear this type of thing. PLEASE don't do that. We are now caring for a little glider who has not had any calcium, he is now fighting for his life as he now has HLP and is blind from the terrible diet he recieved for the 5 years he has been alive.
Do your reseach, pick a proven diet please, you don't want to see a glider in this type of shape. Its heartbreaking.
Angie

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#232964 - 03/12/07 06:47 AM Re: answer from healesville sancuary last night [Re: ]
Gossamer Offline
Glider Slave

Registered: 11/22/06
Posts: 1667
Loc: Long Island, NY
I find this thread very interesting as it brings up some points I have been thinking about. I've been thinking about the diets we feed and how they effect the gliders. There is a high incidence of liver disease in our gliders - is that diet or genetics though? I also wonder about the environment we have our gliders in. Fleece is cute and all, but nowhere close to their natural environment. I've definately wondered about feeding a vitamin supplement and whether necessary. Calcium, yes, I think it's very important.
_________________________
Jeannine

3 Cats (Spike, Kismet, Honeycat)
1 understanding Husband
1 WFB Neutered Glider boy - Grissom! (oop 8/7/06) :wfb:
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#232967 - 03/12/07 06:56 AM Re: answer from healesville sancuary last night [Re: ]
snowmanda Offline
Glider Guardian

Registered: 11/06/06
Posts: 839
Loc: South Carolina
stephiy,
Very well stated post. I think you have outlined most of our concerns on this situation.

What exactly is the "diet" that healsville uses? Why is it so difficult for us to duplicate?
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#233152 - 03/12/07 02:49 PM Re: answer from healesville sancuary last night [Re: snowmanda]
silverwolf Offline
Glider Slave

Registered: 06/15/05
Posts: 1732
Loc: Utah
The other thing I was wondering was that you said that our cage requirements are not high enough so what do they suggest in cage sizes? More information would be helpful to us all.

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#233179 - 03/12/07 03:33 PM Re: answer from healesville sancuary last night [Re: silverwolf]
Anonymous
Unregistered



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#233197 - 03/12/07 04:31 PM Re: answer from healesville sancuary last night [Re: the gliders angel]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Where do you get the WHPS? And for those that use this do you use any other suppliments? Also where can you get the fly pupae? I would like to feed more natural and too much vit. I can see where this could cause problems.


Edited by Esthersmom (03/12/07 04:34 PM)

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#233208 - 03/12/07 04:48 PM Re: answer from healesville sancuary last night [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Wow, just when I think I start to figure it out. . . . Now I'm worried all over again. And they feed dog chow correct, weird. . . sigh.... No sleep for me tonight.

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#233226 - 03/12/07 05:17 PM Re: answer from healesville sancuary last night [Re: ]
BeckiT Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 09/29/06
Posts: 16083
Loc: Manitowoc, WI
there are several places to get the WHPS. There are currently three ads in ClassifiedCENTRAL for it:
Dancing (Teresa), TMarie (Gliders Anonymous, and SweetGliders (Anita)

Grubco sells fly larvae
_________________________
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Glidin' High Sugar Gliders
So You Want to Own a Sugar Glider? Read and Share wink

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#233229 - 03/12/07 05:22 PM Re: answer from healesville sancuary last night [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered



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#233235 - 03/12/07 05:27 PM Re: answer from healesville sancuary last night [Re: the gliders angel]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Thanks I will be ordering that for mine. Especially since I have one that needs extra protein and does not like eggs,was eating chicken,but at least now he is eating bml but I'm seriosly thinking about putting them on a more natural diet.

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#233239 - 03/12/07 05:29 PM Re: answer from healesville sancuary last night [Re: ]
SugarBlossoms Offline
Serious Glideritis

Registered: 02/23/06
Posts: 5830
Loc: USA
Originally Posted By: gizmo_and_izzy
Wow, just when I think I start to figure it out. . . . Now I'm worried all over again. And they feed dog chow correct, weird. . . sigh.... No sleep for me tonight.


They do not feed the type of dog chow we can purchase here in the U.S. Also, it's only a kibble or so. Don't rush out and buy dog food. It's not the same!

I also get Acacia gum from exoticnutrition.com and was buying the Bee pollen from them also but just recently bought the Australian bee pollen from Stakich.
_________________________
Keeper of Handprints on my Heart, You left your Footprints on my soul.
My precious loves that left to quickly, Peanut, Katie
Isabella, Kiwi, Bonnie and Monroe.

Spread your wings and glide free of pain,
Until the day I see you again.

God speed my precious angels. I love you. Mama.

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#233243 - 03/12/07 05:40 PM Re: answer from healesville sancuary last night [Re: SugarBlossoms]
Mel2mdl Offline
Glider Addict

Registered: 07/20/06
Posts: 4212
Loc: Garland, TX
Aren't fly larvae another name for maggots? Where would you buy that? So what dog food would you use? And what the heck is 'sprouted seed' and what fruits - sultanas are a fruit too, right?

This confuses me. I'd really like to see the replies from Healsville concerning diet - I think some claims are too fantastic - in a large population, you are going to have illness and death from things other than injury. (I do like the fact that this discussion can occur without flaming of diets and/or people! More information, the better!)
_________________________
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