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#23570 - 07/09/04 12:00 PM Handling Babies before they are sold
Anonymous
Unregistered


I have been in contact recently with a breeder (a fairly large scale one, I believe), and I am looking for opinions on a belief/practice. Now, please be considerate when expressing opinions, as this person WILL likely read this post. I disagree with the practice, but I don't believe this person is being neglectful or cruel... just a bit misguided. While my personal opinion may not hold enough weight to hopefully change this person's mind, perhaps the input of some of our other breeders will. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/heartpump.gif" alt="" />

This person does not handle their joeys, because he/she feels that it will cause the joey undue stress when they are sold. He/she feels that handling the joeys will cause them to bond to him/her, and then when they are sold they will be sad and miss him/her. Personally, I feel that this denies the joeys a chance to become accustomed to handling from a young age, and also means that the new owner will have a HARDER time making friends with their joey. Anyone have an opinion to share? Remember, let's keep this informative and respectful... and share our opinions in a gentle manner. Thanks!

*I kept this as vague as possible, so no one will be able to tell who I am talking about. Don't ask me, 'cause I won't tell. Thanks. *

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#23571 - 07/09/04 12:18 PM Re: Handling Babies before they are sold [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


As a breeder I feel it important to hold all my babies. The reason behind this is...

I have 3 gliders that were not handled as babies and they are my 3 gliders that don't love me like my others. My first one I got was the meanest little thing (even at a young age) and it took around 5 months before she trusted me. I believe that it caused her much more stress because she was so terriefied of hands and humans. If she were used to human hands then she would of been like all my other glider (besides the other 2 that were not handled) scared at first (maybe a day) but then they realize that I am there new mommy and will be just as loving to them as there last mom was. I have a much stronger bond with my other 7 who were all handled when joeys because they trust my hands. They were able to realize from the young age I got them that hands are not a bad thing

My other 2 that I mentioned will let me pet them inside there pouch, but they put up a fight. It wasn't that I didn't try with these guys either cuz I did.

So as a breeder I want my babies to adjust well to their new enviorment and not be affraid of human hands. I also want the new owners to love the baby and not be affraid of the joey. Most of the time if the owners are affraid of the joey they will loose interest in it really fast, thus causing it to be passed from house to house because of how scared the glider is of people.

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#23572 - 07/09/04 12:29 PM Re: Handling Babies before they are sold [Re: RSXTC]
Anonymous
Unregistered


That was a great way to put it Sil. Sorry just wanted to put my 2 cents in. I totaly 100% believe in Joeys being handled before sold to new owner, here's an idea if he/she, feels it's not right to hold the joeys before sold, maybe the person they are going to should give them a old T-shirt that they have slept in for several nights so the joey can get used to the scent, That helps out alot. and it deffinitly causes less stress for the joey when going to the new owner. But then the joey still has to get used to the hands. Just my 2 scent's. Shorty <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/multi.gif" alt="" />

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#23573 - 07/09/04 01:37 PM Re: Handling Babies before they are sold [Re: ]
StitchsMom Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 09/24/03
Posts: 10569
Loc: IL (St. Louis area)
Both Lilo and Stitch were not handled as joeys and Gizmo and Sprocket were. There is a distinct difference in the two pairs. While none of my gliders are mean by any stretch, Gizmo in particular is so much more affectionate and trusting. Sprocket I've only had for a week or so and she already jumps to me to get out of the cage and willingly accepts petting and cuddles. I do not breed my gliders to sell, but in my opinion as a glider mommy, it's much better for them to be handled as joey's. They seem to bond much faster to their new owners (both Gizmo and Sprocket bond fast!) and Lilo and Stitch take a ton of effort. It took over a year for Stitch to fully trust me and even now he has his days when he wants nothing to do with me.

That is just my opinion. However, if a breeder should choose not to handle their joeys for whatever reason, that's okay. It just means the new glider parent has to be that much more dedicated to their new addition.
_________________________
~*~Jenny and the fur kids~*~

:grey: :grey: :grey: :leu:

>>> Sugar Glider Slave <<<

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#23574 - 07/09/04 01:38 PM Re: Handling Babies before they are sold [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Well, here's my 2 cents... breeders should start handling joeys from the time the come out of pouch (or at the latest, from the time they open their eyes). If you sell somebody a joey that's never been handled you will be causing both the joey and new owner un-due stress. Since the joey has never been handled, when the new owner attempts to handle it the joey will become fearful... Now if a breeder were to handle their joeys for just a few minutes ever day (just enough so that the joey isn't afraid of hands), then the glider will be more open to bonding, less stressed by it's new owner, and will make a better pet in the long run.

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#23575 - 07/09/04 03:01 PM Re: Handling Babies before they are sold [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


my personal opinion on the matter is that it is misguided for a breeder to not handle joeys at all believing this is better,as like u mention it actually can make it harder.
i think this misconception has come about from breeders experiencing joeys that were handled just by them and ended up bonding and then the new home transition was a crabby difficult one. we have all experienced a joey like that at some point. I think what our joeys need is to be socialized and handled by a variety of persons and diffrent settings to hope to socialize them to liking ppl and having confidence enough that changes and transitions will become easier.
I think there are several breeders who are now believing this to be the better way of doing things. i know of atleast 3 and they stand firmly by their opinion so there isnt much we can even do to expalin another way of doing things in some cases.
Cynthia

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#23576 - 07/09/04 03:12 PM Re: Handling Babies before they are sold [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


I beleive having others handle joeys is also an asset. I have 2 neices and a neighbour (two 13 & a 14 yr old)who regularily pop by to handle joeys at my home. It is great for the joeys to be exposed to others, aside from myself. They learn to not make strange, and are more comfortable with strangers this way. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wave.gif" alt="" />

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#23577 - 07/09/04 03:26 PM Re: Handling Babies before they are sold [Re: lillysmomma]
Anonymous
Unregistered


[:"blue"] I haven't had that many joeys to deal with; but on the basis of what Sandman does, I start holding my joeys from day 1 OOP. Maybe 10 minutes for the first week or so and then gradually working up to an hour or so. That practice has never caused me any problems and I believe the joeys are much less nervous around all humans. I think Natalie and the others of similar opinion are on the right track and that Natalie's mystery breeder is misguided!!![/]

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#23578 - 07/09/04 03:33 PM Re: Handling Babies before they are sold [Re: lillysmomma]
Anonymous
Unregistered


</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />
I beleive having others handle joeys is also an asset. I have 2 neices and a neighbour (two 13 & a 14 yr old)who regularily pop by to handle joeys at my home. It is great for the joeys to be exposed to others, aside from myself. They learn to not make strange, and are more comfortable with strangers this way. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wave.gif" alt="" />

<hr /></blockquote><font class="post">


Hi Karen <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I'm purchasing my new girls from Karen and I have to say that having no experience with Gliders I am glad that she handles them. It's going to make my bonding experience that much more rewarding. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/yelclap.gif" alt="" />


Edited by AllieKat (07/09/04 03:34 PM)

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#23579 - 07/09/04 04:31 PM Re: Handling Babies before they are sold [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


I have 2 joeys that I handled daily since OOP and then I have 2 joeys that I hadn'barely handled due to events in my life.

The 2 joeys that I have handled are the sweetest joeys in the world. Suga Suga can vouch for that, she has little Ella who came from me.

Then there is Raven and River... beautiful babies, but MEAN! When I say mean, I am being honest. Every time I Look at Raven she swings her hands up into the air, crabbing her head off. Take a look here =o)

Handling makes a huge difference in the temperment of your babies. There is a BIG different between taming and bonding with a glider. Taming is getting a glider used to hands, sounds like people's voices, smells, and stuff like that. You are holding a joey just enough so that it is used to different surroundings. You do not have to bond with a glider to tame it.

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#23580 - 07/09/04 04:34 PM Re: Handling Babies before they are sold [Re: ]
Critter Creations Offline
Glider Addict

Registered: 11/02/00
Posts: 3398
Loc: Rock Falls, IL, USA
I totally believe that joeys should be handled from the day they come oop. All my babies do well once they go to their new owners. They bond very fast and do not miss me at all. My husband, my kids, and I all handle the joeys so they are used to going to different people. We do not handle them constantly so they can bond to us, but we do handle them for a period of time every day. I believe that by not handling the joey you are stressing them out more because once they go to their new home the new owner wants to handle them and this scares them really bad. Not to mention it puts them at risk of going from home to home because the new owner doesn't have the patience to bond to the glider because it is so afraid. Not handling the joeys is totally doing them an injustice and the new owners an injustice. I get so angry when someone calls here and they can't do anything without the glider lunging at them all the time because it has never been handled. The glider is so afraid that all it will do is bite and the new owner is so frustrated they dont know what to do, but realize at that point they should have researched more and really studied their breeders before purchasing. You can tell the difference between a glider that has been handled and is well adjusted to a glider that hasn't been handled and is scared out of their minds. The well adjusted one adjusts to their new environment and person really fast where the other one doesn't. So this breeder is very wrong in why they are not handling the joey.
_________________________
Danielle
owned by 4 dogs and 2 gliders really soon
Formerly known as K & D Exotics


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#23581 - 07/09/04 04:41 PM Re: Handling Babies before they are sold [Re: ]
Srlb Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 10/30/03
Posts: 16733
Loc: St. Johns, Florida
I am no where near being a breeder, but I am the proud owner of two very beautiful gliders!

My babies were not handled at all when they were joeys and the couple I got them from stated the SAME reason. They didnt handle them because they didnt want them to bond with them and than have to go to a different home and start all over. Well, that being said let me say this,

If you are a breeder, I think not only to be fair to your joeys but also to the new owners to PLEASE HANDLE YOUR JOEYS ASAP! As much as I love my Pepper and Bear, they were at 8 weeks oop the meanest things in the world! As a new owner and new to gliders altogether, I had nooo clue what I should look for or what I should expect. Now with CONSTANT daytime bonding they have surely come around, but even after a year later, they are NOT to the point where I see others that spend LESS time with already *human accustomed* gliders are at. I would give anything to be able to know that I can take my babies anywhere I wanted (in or outside of my home) and not worry if they were to come out of their bonding pouch.
Also, most people have to work all day long so they are not able to spend the time I was able to spend with mine (I am a stay at home mom) so that would make the bonding and trusting time even longer IMO with a joey that has not been handled at all by the breeder.

I would have to say, as a glider owner, I would encourage ALL of you breeders to please make the transition period easier on both the gliders and the new owners by handling your joeys.
_________________________
Peggy
Critter Love
Critter LoveŽ Diet Center

If you want to know what a person is like, watch how he treats others.

You'll never know what the outcome is if you don't step up and try.


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#23582 - 07/09/04 04:52 PM Re: Handling Babies before they are sold [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


yep, my little sweetie Ella is the best baby, very well socialized.. I think handling the joeys from day one makes all the difference.
Also, Ella's parents Eddie & Trixie, now that I am blessed to be owned by are awsome gliders too, the tamest adults I've ever seen in person.. I believe that's important too and they sure passed on that sweetness to their kids <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/heartpump.gif" alt="" />

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#23583 - 07/09/04 08:46 PM Re: Handling Babies before they are sold [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Hi,
I hamdle my joeys the first time I see them detatched. I start at one miute and work up fromt there. I have never had a joey that crabs, dislikes people, or has any other problems. I got my first glider and she was a terror, she hadn't been handled at all. It made it so much harder. I really think its a mistake not to handle a joey, I think often these glider have an increased risk of becomming rescues.

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#23584 - 07/10/04 09:34 AM Re: Handling Babies before they are sold [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


I am actually sort of inbetween...

I do believe the joeys should be handled.. I feel they should be handled by different people tho and by the owner. When they are not handled by the new owner in their own environment I think it makes it harder for them to adapt to their new home.

Joeys shouldn't be handled to a point that they are bonded to the breeder but should be handled to a point that they don't lunge and bite at other people.

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#23585 - 07/10/04 10:48 AM Re: Handling Babies before they are sold [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Natalie,
I'm not mad in any way. I'm always up for learning something on my babies. I am the "Breeder" she is talking about. And if any of you have read my posts on here you do know that I do care and love my gliders. I think you misunderstood me. Then on the other hand I'm such a bad writer may be I didn't make myself clear.

I do not hold my babies. What I mean is I don't take each one out and sit with it for a while. I do handle my joeys. I'll reach in and pet them. Or I'll talk to them with my hand up on the cage so they can smell me. I have been told over and over that my joeys in the store are easy to hand and nicer then what they use to get. So I do handle my joeys I just don't hold them...well...sometimes I do that too. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />

Bitsy

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#23586 - 07/10/04 11:03 AM Re: Handling Babies before they are sold [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/hug2.gif" alt="" />

Wasn't really directed at you... but at a growing group with said belief. Was meant to be more of a sharing/learning thing for everyone. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

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#23587 - 07/10/04 11:17 AM Re: Handling Babies before they are sold [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Bitsy
just curious what did u mean by 'in store' does this mean u usually sell the petstores??

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#23588 - 07/10/04 11:20 AM Re: Handling Babies before they are sold [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/hug2.gif" alt="" />

Well I know we where talking about this in PMs. And I just finally looked at what the post title said and who wrote it. I said to myself "Wait a minute...we where just talking about this!" <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/roflmao.gif" alt="" /> I tell you the older you get the slower you get! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> And today I'm feeling pertty darn ooooollld. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />
I know I do have a lot of gliders. But my kid are grown now. This is all I have is my gliders...well...and my hubby. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/roflmao.gif" alt="" /> Anyway...now I know this is here I'll read it over.. Then take a nap! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/sleep.gif" alt="" />

Bitsy

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#23589 - 07/10/04 11:30 AM Re: Handling Babies before they are sold [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


I have two pet stores I sell to. I go in there 3 to 4 times aweek. I check up on my joeys. I know this is not the best way to sell, but I have no choice. I have a nabor that turned me in for running a business out of my home. Didn't leave their name, but I was told to sell somewhere else. I'm always here for anyone that needs to talk to me about my gliders.

Bitsy

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#23590 - 07/10/04 12:18 PM Re: Handling Babies before they are sold [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Bitsy, I think it is perfectly fine to sell your gliders in a pet store, the way you are doing it.

Think about it. People don't want a Pet store glider because they are "untame, unhealthy, underage, too old" etc... If you have a responsible breeder, who cares about their gliders, in there with their own gliders every week, telling the pet store exactly how to care for them properly, that will prevent that pet store from going and finding some cheap breeder who doesnt give a darn about the way the animals are treated.

Not all pet stores are bad, not all animals in pet stores are mean, and I think Bitsy's commitment to the animals even AFTER they are in the pet store is what makes a difference. If they didn't choose Bitsy, it would be someone else, and I would rather have Bitsy selling in my local pet store, knowing I am getting an animal that is cared for.

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#23591 - 07/10/04 01:04 PM Re: Handling Babies before they are sold [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


I think a good idea for this particular situation would be for Bitsy to make up some brochures for glider care (TMarie has some great ones) to give to the pet store. This would have feeding, housing and bonding tips, as well as URL's for places to get more info, for here, USGN, SGRC, GA and other glider forums. This would be good for the pet store because they would be giving some information out to the prospective owners. Also-Bitsy, take some time to train the pet store people. Many will be open to this teaching-if they care about the well being of the animals. EDUCATION IS KEY!!!

I don't have as many gliders as some breeders, so I have the ability to interview and get to know each and every one of my clients. Having the pet store ask some questions to the buyers, and make an educated decision to sell or not to sell a glider will be helpful. We have a client questionnaire that you are welcome to print and make copies of to give to the pet store so they can help find the right homes for these lovely and intelligent creatures.

Another thing to remember is that pet stores generally have a high employee turn over, so the education of them is going to be an ongoing thing. Keep on them, ask them to keep track of who they sell to --get these names and do follow ups. have your email address on the brochures so they can ask questions directly to you-as you are more knowledgeable than the pet store employees.

Personally, I don't support pet shops carrying gliders for many reasons-but if this is how you need to do it, you can make it safer for the gliders by continuing your weekly visits, taking BML with you, handling the joeys at home, and keeping in contact with the new owners. They will be a little lost, and helping them helps the gliders!

As for handling joeys--I strongly feel that handling joeys from birth will make the joey a better adjusted and happier glider. Again, I don't have near the numbers you do, so for me it is easy. Do you have a local vet tech school near by? The future vet tech has to do a certain number of volunteer hours, as do Boy Scouts and many other groups. Have some volunteers-train them and have them help you out with cleaning and such-to give yourself more time to handle the joeys. I think you will find this more rewarding emotionally for you and the gliders--there is nothing like working with the wee ones hands on. When the joeys go to their new owners, they will be ready to bond and used to human contact, less scared and happier!

Hope some of this helps! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

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#23592 - 07/10/04 02:12 PM Re: Handling Babies before they are sold [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


The man that runs the pet shop does know his info on gliders. And he gives out my number to all that need help. His employees on the other hand just give out my number. So they do lead people my way as needed. I'm ok with them being in his store...but I'm really happy in the way they are out there for people to see. Just last night a lady that bought a female joey from him (one of mine) wanted a boy to have babies by. He called me to have a talk with her on what it takes. After going over everything I showed her it would be better just to get one of my neuter joeys. So even if I don't sell anymore I'm still intouch with the new glider's home.

Bitsy

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#23593 - 07/10/04 03:49 PM Re: Handling Babies before they are sold [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


I don't exactly care for the way this particular pet store cares for their gliders... but would be more than willing to donate toys, nest boxes, anything... I also whole-heartedly agree that information packets need to be made up for the new owners. I know from personally talking to some of them that they are not getting the information they need when they take the glider home. I'm glad they have your number, but some people are too shy to call. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/heartpump.gif" alt="" />

If you need/would accept my help on any of this, please let me know! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

I know this is getting off my original topic... sorry mods! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />

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#23594 - 07/10/04 03:53 PM Re: Handling Babies before they are sold [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />
I think a good idea for this particular situation would be for Bitsy to make up some brochures for glider care (TMarie has some great ones) to give to the pet store. This would have feeding, housing and bonding tips, as well as URL's for places to get more info, for here, USGN, SGRC, GA and other glider forums. This would be good for the pet store because they would be giving some information out to the prospective owners. Also-Bitsy, take some time to train the pet store people. Many will be open to this teaching-if they care about the well being of the animals. EDUCATION IS KEY!!!

<hr /></blockquote><font class="post">

Thanks Mere. Bitsy, I think you are an amazing woman and don't really disagree with anything you are doing. You helped me so much when my first joey was rejected and you have so much knowledge and love for those gliders. if you need any of my info sheets or my pamphlet i have let me know..

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#23595 - 07/10/04 05:31 PM Re: Handling Babies before they are sold [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


I got Lil' Bit from Bitsy, he was the easiest one out of my 5 to bond to. He was the only one that was content to cuddle up or sleep in my pocket right away. I would recommend her joeys to anyone getting a joey....

I also have a 24 page "info sheet" that she tries to hand out.....



Tom,
Rocky and Roxy
Lil' bit, Smackers and Squeeks

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#23596 - 07/10/04 05:33 PM Re: Handling Babies before they are sold [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />

I also have a 24 page "info sheet" that she tries to hand out.....



Tom,
Rocky and Roxy
Lil' bit, Smackers and Squeeks

<hr /></blockquote><font class="post">

lol 24 might be a bit too much... that's why little ones that have just the basics often work better in pet shops

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#23597 - 07/10/04 06:29 PM Re: Handling Babies before they are sold [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


I don't know--my info packet is 40 pages! I give it in a 3 ring binder so that clients can add to it as they learn. . .

Maybe business cards so he can VERY easily give out your email and phone--some people may be shy about a phone call, but may email . .

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#23598 - 07/10/04 08:23 PM Re: Handling Babies before they are sold [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


sugargliderdaddy!

ment 2 cal u this wek. Ben bisy. I sirprise you done't tail thim abut al tha mis speld wrds in mi bok. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/roflmao.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/roflmao.gif" alt="" />

Bitsy

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#23599 - 07/10/04 10:24 PM Re: Handling Babies before they are sold [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Tea raisin eye donut halve miss pelt worlds lick ewe, eye half spill cheek.. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/roflmao.gif" alt="" />



Tom,
Rocky and Roxy
Lil' bit, Smackers and Squeeks

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