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#25022 - 08/14/04 10:59 AM New Cage Soon! Questions and Klubertanz prices
SarahW Offline
Glider Lover

Registered: 01/10/04
Posts: 542
Loc: Norman, OK
I finally got off my duff and got my Klubertanz supplies!!! Right now I have a 50' roll of wire in my living room and will begin cutting wire soon for the new cage. I bought a roll because I was in the area visiting relatives anyway, and shipping the wire I needed to OKC was more expensive than picking up a 50' roll. With the extra wire I'm going to make and sell an additional cage and a small cage for car rides and vet trips. I'm so excited!!!

One thing I would like to point out is that with the recent increases in the cost of steel, Klubertanz has raised their prices on wire and J-clips about 15%.

Also, I wanted to ask about construction. I was originally going to set it up with pen rings, but decided later to go with J-clips. Do you guys have any comments/tips on whether J-clip or pen ring use? The cage will be freestanding, either 2x3x6 or 3x3x6. It will have a pull out tray with a separating floor (so the gliders can't get at their waste) and a floor underneath the tray for added stability.

Also, any general cage building comments would be most appreciated!!! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/roflmao.gif" alt="" />

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#25023 - 08/14/04 11:33 AM Re: New Cage Soon! Questions and Klubertanz prices [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


I heard some where too avoide J-clips?

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#25024 - 08/15/04 03:00 PM Re: New Cage Soon! Questions and Klubertanz prices [Re: ]
SarahW Offline
Glider Lover

Registered: 01/10/04
Posts: 542
Loc: Norman, OK
bump!

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#25025 - 08/15/04 03:26 PM Re: New Cage Soon! Questions and Klubertanz prices [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


my cage is done with jclips and its been set up for 5 yrs no problems they are a little harder to use though and some areas are tough to get to so we used some cable ties in thoose areas.

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#25026 - 08/15/04 03:40 PM Re: New Cage Soon! Questions and Klubertanz prices [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


I've used both methods and had no problems with either (glider-wise). J Clips are a pain in the rear, as far as I'm concerned. If you go that route, you'll probably need a J Clip remover too. We built 3 cages using J Clips and had to take a few off every time.

The rings are easily installed, and fairly easy to remove.

By far, my favorite method (and the cheapest) is to use zip ties. I have found that if you keep the long tail on the outside of the cage and clip it short, the cage holds together very well. We have built three like this also, and it's sooo much easier. Although we haven't done so,if we need to take a cage apart, it will be very easy clipping the zip ties.

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#25027 - 08/17/04 11:22 PM Re: New Cage Soon! Questions and Klubertanz prices [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


I buy my clips at a local feed store Paris Farmers Union. They are aluminum and costs a lot less than the ones I could order. But the biggest reason is that I don't like using the galvanized ones, and the steel ones often have sharp splinters on them, from being cut. If you like I could send you pictures of the cages I build, they are 4 feet high, 3 feet wide and 2 feet deep. It's great that you could pick up the wire when you were in the area. I find it funny that I live in Maine, the wire is manufactured in Mass then shipped west to Wisconsin, then I order it and it gets shipped east past Mass. to Maine. LOL

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#25028 - 08/17/04 11:45 PM Re: New Cage Soon! Questions and Klubertanz prices [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Ark Mom I live in NH! Do you know of any breeders? I have a glider on hold but I want to buy 1 or 2 more in a few months! Does anyone else know of any breeders in the Vermont, New Hampshre, Maine area? I know of Granite State Glider already. [:"blue"] [/] <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/littleglider.gif" alt="" />

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#25029 - 08/20/04 05:45 PM Re: New Cage Soon! Questions and Klubertanz prices [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


The only regular breeders I know in Maine have retired from it. But occasionally they show up in the pet shops here (usually The Kennel Shop) I don't know if they would tell you who breeds in the area. Sometimes they are listed in Uncle Henry's, I know recently there have been several. A couple of weeks ago somebody had two boys, a few weeks before that a couple of girls. You might be better off ordering from another state if you plan to breed them. I don't think we have enough gliders here in Maine to really provide a good genetic base. It's very likely they are nearly all related. About 3-4 years ago the pet shops were selling them in pairs (boy,girl) and telling people they could make money breeding them. If they were getting the gliders from the same place and they were the same age it is very likely sibling pairs were being sold as potential breeders. Though some say this is ok, it's called line breeding and done with other animals to bring out specific desired traits I don't think in the long run you end up with the healthist of animal. I know Suncoast ships babies and if you tell them you want unrelated gliders that is what you will get. If you don't plan to breed then it doesn't matter quite so much as long as you make sure the glider is healthy.

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#25030 - 08/21/04 03:02 AM Re: New Cage Soon! Questions and Klubertanz prices [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


[:"blue"] Sarah:

Guess I'll offer my two cents worth and will give you a 10% discount!! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/roflmao.gif" alt="" />

J-clips vs. cable ties vs. pen rings.........this is the classic Chevy vs. Ford controversy!!! Fact is each method has its pluses and minuses and what works for me may not work for you.

I've never used pen rings so my opinion here is second hand. Pen rings are going to be a little more expensive than cable ties because you have to buy a special tool to apply them. The actual ring itself is cheaper than a single cable tie so at some point, rings will be cheaper to use than zip ties.....when the price difference covers the extra expense of the tool. I've never done the math to figure out how many cages you would have to build before the rings become more economical. I have three concerns about the rings and maybe Peggy can comment since she has used them.

They are galvanized so they may start to rust after a while.
They have sharp ends and those ends may be some small danger to either the gliders or the owner. All of the cages I have ever seen made with rings were a little "shaky" because the rings weren't clinched up tight like you can with J-clips or cable ties.

Cable ties are the cheapest alternative for a single cage builder(although we are really not talking about a big expense here) and the easiest to install and probably the easiest to find at a store. To my thinking the argument about being able to remove them to take down a cage is a little silly as the last time I had to disassemble a cage was in 1932; but it is true they are easy to remove if you get one in the wrong place ......and you will!!! Only real problem I have with them is they leave a "rough" edge or seam with all of the little plastic ends sitting there waiting to grab you....wouldn't cut or injure you but sure will snag clothing. And lastly.....I just don't like how they look......kinda amateurish to me....but that is just me and there are plenty of people who like the look just fine. Maybe you can get someone to take a picture of a cable tie cage(and a closeup) so you can see if you like the look??

J-clips are what you find on the commercially manufactured cages and that is what I use when I build cages and I've built a few. But to be honest, they are a little less convenient to use. First off, they are a little more expensive to use because like the pen rings, you have to buy a special tool to apply them. Some places will sell/rent you a tool and give you a refund or credit when you return it; but with all of the shipping costs involved I think you make out just as well to buy the thing and keep it. Down the road you may want another cage or you may want to build one for a friend.....then you will already have the tool....they run about $10. I have seen a cheaper version offered.....about $7.....but the extra few $$ is well spent. Are J-clips easy to remove if you get one in the wrong place.....H*** NO.....!!!! (but that is why they make such a secure connection!!) They are a royal pain so be careful where you put them!!! If you are only making a single cage, you will probably only make one or two mistakes and the those can be fixed with an ice pick and a pair of pliers. Do be careful, though. If you stab yourself and have visit the ER, all of your savings will be out the window in an instant!!! If you are going to be building multiple cages, I would recommend springing for the J-Clip removal tool. They are about $20 from Klubertanz; but that is a lot less than the cost of a DR. visit and they do make removing the J-clips very easy to do. They are also handy for cage remodeling. One of the first cages I built was only 3' tall. Didn't take me too long to figure out that was too small so I took off the roof and added another foot.....the removal tool made that job a lead-pipe cinch. J-Clips come in three flavors: aluminum, galvanized and stainless steel. You can find the galvanized ones locally at most farm stores but the aluminum and ss clips will probably have to be ordered from Klubertanz. I've used both gavl. and aluminum and have minor issues with both. SS is more expensive than the other two but I intend to use them in the future.

Hope some of this will help you decide how to proceed. Enjoy....cage building is really a lot of fun, especially if you are working with someone. Do be prepared for tired hands......cutting wire can wear you out!! [/]

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#25031 - 08/21/04 11:01 AM Re: New Cage Soon! Questions and Klubertanz prices [Re: ]
SarahW Offline
Glider Lover

Registered: 01/10/04
Posts: 542
Loc: Norman, OK
Thank you so much for your thoughtful and thorough response! FYI, Klubertanz now offers a non-galvanized SS pen ring with a blunt end. However, I have decided to go with J-clips. I have a few questions about the cutting process though.

I have all the main pieces cut out for the cage. I used a pair of cable cutters to cut the wire and my Klein side cutting dikes to trim it. Unfortunately, it didn't get the edges as flush as I prefer. I was planning to use a file to take off the sharp edges left by the dikes, and I think this will work well to dull them, but I'm still left with a mm or two at each intersection of the mesh. So my question is, how do you get the edges flush when you cut the wire? What tools do you use? I exhausted all the hardware stores in my area (Loews, Home Depot, Sears, and Ace Hardware), and my side cutters have the shallowest cutting edge I could find.

I am posting this so others can offer their thoughts, but I will copy you in a PM as well.

Thanks!

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#25032 - 08/22/04 12:13 AM Re: New Cage Soon! Questions and Klubertanz prices [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


[:"blue"] First off, thanks for the tip on the SS pen rings. That will be a handy piece of information that I will tuck away for future use.

sounds like you may be even more of a perfectionist than I am!!! I use the same wire cutting process as you did and although the wire stubs are not exactly flush with the cross wires, they are close enough that they have never been a problem for me. If you really want to get them close, one thing you can do is buy a set of the "flush-cut" dikes from Klubertanz; but they are going to run you about $20 and I can't say how much closer they would cut.....a 1 mm stub really isn't very much.....so they may not be worth the extra expense.

There is another thing you can try.....I could show you the technique in ten seconds; but it will be hard for me to describe....hope you get the gist of what I'm talking about??? And you may have already done this anyway.......

Most people cut wire with the blade of the dikes oriented such that the cut is perpendicular to the long axis of the wire.....sort of like cutting perfectly shaped disk like pieces off the end of a length of smoked sausage. Now make another cut off the sausage, but twist/rotate the knife blade about 45. Now the end of the sausage(end of the wire) is angled at 45 to the long axis of the sausage. This is the kind of cut you want to have on your wire. To accomplish this, angle one blade of your dikes down into the weld/joint of the cross-wire and the stub that you are trying to trim.(the blade should be parallel to the cross wire and not perpendicular to it!!) Then rotate the dikes a little so the cut will be at an angle to the stub wire and NOT perpendicularly across it. Clear.....????.....as mud!!!!

If you think you have it, take a piece of scrap wire and practice it a couple of times. Reason being that if you rotate too much..... sound like I'm teaching gymnastics.....you can cut through the weld and cause the stub wire to become detached from the cross wire???

Got it.....I hope so??? You still have to use the file to dress up the cut a bit; but you do get a pretty close cut.

If all of the above sounds like Greek to you let me know and I will try to think of another way of explaining it........maybe I could set up a demo and take a picture.....or maybe I can draw you a little picture in PAINT.....I'm not real handy with PAINT but probably can do a good-enough sketch to give you the idea???

Ciao.[/]

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#25033 - 08/22/04 01:08 AM Re: New Cage Soon! Questions and Klubertanz prices [Re: ]
hushpuppy Offline
Glider Slave

Registered: 01/31/01
Posts: 1640
Loc: Mims, Florida, USA
We used a grinder that worked really good on ours. I think it is called an angle grinder????
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#25034 - 08/22/04 02:22 AM Re: New Cage Soon! Questions and Klubertanz prices [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


[:"blue"] Yeah.......they will work fine; but you have to be real careful as they will take off a lot of material really quick. Real easy to take off the PVC coating as well as the stub ends that are the problem!! And the other problem is that most people don't have access to one.[/]

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#25035 - 08/22/04 08:07 AM Re: New Cage Soon! Questions and Klubertanz prices [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


If you find j clips in a feed or hardware store and want to know if they are steel or aluminum an easy way to tell is to hold a magnet up to the bag. If the magnet tugs at them they are steel (if they are galvinized they will be a dull color I think) Aluminum is non-magnetic.

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#25036 - 08/22/04 02:38 PM Re: New Cage Soon! Questions and Klubertanz prices [Re: ]
SarahW Offline
Glider Lover

Registered: 01/10/04
Posts: 542
Loc: Norman, OK
There is only one store in our area (a feed store) that carries them. Unfortunately, they are galvanized steel. I am waiting for my shipment from Klubertanz for my J-clips.

Randy, I was holding my cutters at a 45 degree angle. The problem was mainly the size of my side-cutters, which are these heavy-duty ones for cutting thick metal by Klein. They were just too big for the job (wouldn't fit in the 1/2" spaces, cut was pretty flush compared to the size of the tool, but left about 2-3mm on the wire).

I solved my problem this way: I went to Sears and got a pair of smaller diagonal-cut dikes. These don't have the plier grip-tip my side cutters have so the cutting edge is more useful. I made sure to bring a piece of scrap wire to test on. I got a pair that fits in the spaces, cuts with about a mm of a bump (looks comparable to the bumps on the cage I have), and can handle up to 14 gauge wire.

Dikes leave a little ^ edge where they trim, so I bought a metal file and smoothed off the ridge so there's no way the gliders can get hurt. After filing, the bumps are almost non-existent, and everything looks great!!!

I am not always a perfectionist, but after reading the posts on SM, it seems like one tiny scratch is all it takes to send gliders down the dark path. Mine scurry all over the outside of their cage, so I was concerned.

Ark mom, thanks for the great tip on how to tell aluminum vs steel! Now I don't have to wait for hardware store employees to tell me they don't know what metal it is and I'll have the answer!!!

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#25037 - 08/22/04 05:47 PM Re: New Cage Soon! Questions and Klubertanz prices [Re: ]
Charlie H Offline
Glider Slave

Registered: 11/13/03
Posts: 1659
Loc: Wallis Texas
The ideal cutters for cage wire are the Klubertanz stock #Z00F. They are 8" Crescent Flush Cutting Edge dikes. They are very durable if used on 16 and 14 ga wire and make smooth cuts. In last catalogue they were $18.50. I could never find the flush cutting dikes localy.

Tip on the magnet. If you are shopping for J clips or rings in a hardware store and wonder if they are steel. Most of the torpedo levels have a magnet on the bottom of them. Use one of the stores to check for magnatism.
Charlie H
_________________________
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http://www.angelfire.com/tx/glidertree/
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#25038 - 08/22/04 11:32 PM Re: New Cage Soon! Questions and Klubertanz prices [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Sarah maybe you should let the guys at the hardware store in on the magnet secret. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/roflmao.gif" alt="" />Or better yet let them tell you they don't know then show them. hahahahaa

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#25039 - 08/23/04 06:58 AM Re: New Cage Soon! Questions and Klubertanz prices [Re: ]
Charlie H Offline
Glider Slave

Registered: 11/13/03
Posts: 1659
Loc: Wallis Texas
Those J clips are going to drive you nuts in tight places. I like them but there are some areas that I use the rings. Yesterday I built a 2'X 2' X 4' cage for a lady. It has two doors, three shelves, and a slide out tray. Took me about two and a half hours to complete. But keep in mind I have been building cages for a long time. It is going to take you much longer. We all have to go through the learning curve.

When I cut the 2' X 2' piece for the floor of the cage I cut out one of the 1/2" X 1" sections on each corner. This makes the floor fit inside the cage better. I also do this on the shelves. Don't do this on the top and bottom pieces. Also when you cut the openings for the doors measure the opening and make the door 2" taller and 1" wider than the opening. I always make the bottom door larger to accomodate wheels and large toys. On the bottom door I use two door latches. Another thing you will learn is that the trays from Klubertanz are a little narrower one way than the other. For instance a tray for a 2' cage will be 24" X 23 3/4". If you make the cage 2' square the tray will slide in ok.
If you will get some of the plastic door trim and put on the edges of the door openings and the outside edges of the doors it will help re-inforce them. Also saves a lot of scratches to the arms when reaching inside the cage. You can only use it on three sides. The side where the hinges are do not need it. BTW the J clips or rings are ideal for hinges.
Charlie H
_________________________
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http://www.angelfire.com/tx/glidertree/
[]glidertree@toast.net[/]

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#25040 - 08/25/04 06:13 PM Re: New Cage Soon! Questions and... (pics) [Re: ]
SarahW Offline
Glider Lover

Registered: 01/10/04
Posts: 542
Loc: Norman, OK
I got the first cage finished. It is a 1x1x1.5 travel cage for my gliders. It has no shelves but has two corner "cup-holders" which I can put their dishes in. I have always had a problem with them sliding around. Here's the cage!


Attachments
271595-travelcage.jpg (52 downloads)


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#25041 - 08/25/04 06:13 PM Re: New Cage Soon! Questions and... (pics) [Re: ]
SarahW Offline
Glider Lover

Registered: 01/10/04
Posts: 542
Loc: Norman, OK
And the cup-holders, empty...


Attachments
271597-TCdishholders.jpg (33 downloads)


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#25042 - 08/25/04 06:14 PM Re: New Cage Soon! Questions and... (pics) [Re: ]
SarahW Offline
Glider Lover

Registered: 01/10/04
Posts: 542
Loc: Norman, OK
And the cup-holders with a dish in them.


Attachments
271598-TCholderswcup.jpg (50 downloads)


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#25043 - 08/25/04 06:34 PM Re: New Cage Soon! Questions and... (pics) [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


WOW!! That looks great so far!! I have a good cage for now, so when I do need a good one...I know who to ask...lol <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

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#25044 - 08/25/04 08:29 PM Liar~Liar!! [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


[:"blue"] Sarah:

You are such a liar!! In spite of what you said, I just knew you were a perfectionist!!! And when I saw the picture of your cage I knew I was right. Out of a hundred cages you won't see three where the builder took the extra time to miter the door edging to make it look like a picture frame. Lots of people wouldn't even notice it; but I love it. NICE JOB!!

This is a favorite tip that I like share. If you have seen some of my other posts on cage building, you may have already seen it......sorry if I repeat myself.

I like to locate the top of the cage an inch or 1-1/2" below the top end of the front and side panels of the cage. This creates a little lip or edge around the top of the cage and allows you to store stuff on the top of the cage without the gliders being able to knock it off!! Someone else.....sorry, don't remember who.....posted this tip on GC a long time ago and I tried it on my last cage and love the idea.....it really works!!!!

Another thing I like to do is hinge the doors on the bottom rather than the side. This way they fold down and lay flat against the cage out of the way. Doors that are hinged on the right or left sometimes want to swing closed at the very moment that you want them wide open!!

You can also have a very large cage opening with out having excessively large doors by using a double door. [/]

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#25045 - 08/25/04 09:04 PM Re: Liar~Liar!! [Re: ]
SarahW Offline
Glider Lover

Registered: 01/10/04
Posts: 542
Loc: Norman, OK
Thanks for the tip! But if I were a perfectionist the J-clips would have lined up better. Thank goodness they will on the big cage. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

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#25046 - 08/26/04 12:30 AM Re: Liar~Liar!! [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


[:"blue"] I didn't say you were a perfect perfectionist.....just a perfectionist!!
<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/roflmao.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/roflmao.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/roflmao.gif" alt="" /> [/]

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#25047 - 08/26/04 07:03 AM Re: Liar~Liar!! [Re: ]
Charlie H Offline
Glider Slave

Registered: 11/13/03
Posts: 1659
Loc: Wallis Texas
You did a great job Sarah. Looks like Randy and I need to be taking tips from you! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/roflmao.gif" alt="" /> Guess it is just a matter of preferences but I put my door hinges on the opposite side. Of course you have to have the right hand latch. I don't think any of us mentioned it earlier. To make the latches fit better I usually have to bend the large arced end together a small amount.
Charlie H
_________________________
Rescue & Rehabilation
http://www.angelfire.com/tx/glidertree/
[]glidertree@toast.net[/]

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