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#26339 - 09/17/04 04:31 PM Self mutilation
kati Offline
Glider Guardian

Registered: 03/19/03
Posts: 720
Loc: NY
My little evee self mutilated herself! the end of her tail is stripped of fur. I took her to the vet and got her anti-bacterial medicine untill she can get an operation but he did not tell me much else. She has babies in the pouch about a month old and i was told to let her wean the babies before she had the operation. Now i asked if i should take out the male so she doesnt make new babies before the first ones are weaned and he said yes then no then never really gave me a definite answer. If this is out of stress should i really be taking away her partner? At the point her babies are weaned she will have another batch in the same state this one is. What could have made her do this? Shes on the BML diet, and seems happy. I've just gotten her about 4 months ago, could it be the stress of moving? Someone please help!

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#26340 - 09/17/04 05:40 PM Re: Self mutilation [Re: ]
Critter Creations Offline
Glider Addict

Registered: 11/02/00
Posts: 3398
Loc: Rock Falls, IL, USA
Is her tail just stripped of furr or are there wounds on it? If there are wounds on it was her tail injured in any way around the area that she was mutilating? Is she making any noises when she mutilates the area?
I wouldn't take her from her mate as he is going to have to help her raise those joeys. That is just my opinion on that. However if her tail is really really bad she may have to be seperated from her mate. Is there anyway you can include photos of her tail if there are wounds on it?
_________________________
Danielle
owned by 4 dogs and 2 gliders really soon
Formerly known as K & D Exotics


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#26341 - 09/17/04 05:49 PM Re: Self mutilation [Re: ]
kati Offline
Glider Guardian

Registered: 03/19/03
Posts: 720
Loc: NY
her tail is pretty bad. The bone was showing and the vet had to remove a vertebra for now. She does not make any of the mutilating noises. I had thought it was an injury because at first the tail was just missing some fur then i saw some fur on the wheel so i took out the wheel thinking it was getting stuck some how. That might have stressed her out more because it got worse in such a short time. I dont get how she is not supposed to make any more babies but she still needs her mate.

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#26342 - 09/17/04 05:58 PM Re: Self mutilation [Re: ]
Critter Creations Offline
Glider Addict

Registered: 11/02/00
Posts: 3398
Loc: Rock Falls, IL, USA
I'm not real sure what to do about keeping them together or not as I have never had an injured glider thankfully. I would think the tail had been injured at some point and that is why she is mutilating it. I could be wrong, but that is the way it seems. I would think the only way to fix it would be to amputate the tail and I'm not totally sure why he won't do that now as I have heard of them doing surgery on gliders while pregnant before. Regardless she should be in an e-collar to prevent her from doing anymore damage. You can find the plans for them here . The mate will probably cause more damage to the tail as well so part of me wants them seperated since she isn't that far along and then maybe put back together once she is healed so they can raise their joeys. My problem with this is I don't know if the male will forget they are his joeys or not and whether he will raise them or kill them. That's why I would rather someone with more experience in this answer that question. Sorry I am not a lot of help in the question you are more concerned about but hopefully Judie or someone else will be along soon to help.
I do know you should get the e-collar on her asap to prevent anymore damage from being done. Is your vet experienced with sugar gliders?
_________________________
Danielle
owned by 4 dogs and 2 gliders really soon
Formerly known as K & D Exotics


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#26343 - 09/17/04 06:20 PM Re: Self mutilation [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Well it may help to get the male out becuse when my baby hauna was pregnat helo wanted to have more kids. Hauna wasnt up for this so hilo took a big gash out of haunas neck hauna is now ok. This may be the same problem with your gliders the E-collar is a good idea but i also thank you should take the male out for 2 weeks or more and when you put them back just watch them so you know shes doing ok.

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#26344 - 09/17/04 06:31 PM Re: Self mutilation [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Hi,
Well this is a difficult situation. I think that an e-collar is going to upset her also, she wont be able to clean her joeys. I am letting Mary and Charlie know about this threat so they can respond to this, I am not sure if they have had a pregnant sm glider before, but it never hurts to ask.
Angie

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#26345 - 09/17/04 07:17 PM Re: Self mutilation [Re: ]
Charlie H Offline
Glider Slave

Registered: 11/13/03
Posts: 1659
Loc: Wallis Texas
First, it is not a good idea to give a pregnant or lactating mother antibiotics. Antibiotics at this time will affect the joeys immune system. They need bacteria to develope properly. Be sure to suppliment the mom's diet with yogurt to try and keep the good bacteria count up in her system.

The problem with the tail could be the result of any number of things. From the description I would highly suspect injury or an aggressive male. At this time I would remove the male from the cage. Reasons are it could be be his aggression but even if it is not he will groom the wound and it will not heal properly. When the joeys are oop you will need to give the mother a lot of help by carrying the joeys as much as possible and hand feeding them during the day. This way the mom will be able to get a little rest. You will have to take over the duties of the dad. Do not reintroduce the male into the cage with the young joeys. Since he has been seperated from the mom for so long he will probably kill them.

As for the tail, I would put Neosporene plus pain on it. Then wrap it with a small piece of gauze. Then snuggly wrap the tail with a piece of the self adhesive gauze. We have done this in the past and avoided having to use an e collar. If it does not work and she manages to keep removing it you may have to use an ecollar.

Last but not least, I would find a more experienced vet. and one that I could communicate with. If I am paying for his services I expect him/her to give me answers, and hopefully the right ones.

Good Luck and keep us posted. Any questions you have I would be glad to try and answer. E mail or post on the board.
Charlie H
_________________________
Rescue & Rehabilation
http://www.angelfire.com/tx/glidertree/
[]glidertree@toast.net[/]

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#26346 - 09/17/04 07:50 PM Re: Self mutilation [Re: ]
Judie Offline
Serious Glideritis

Registered: 10/25/01
Posts: 9173
Loc: Edwardsville, Kansas 66113
First off...I would not seperate out the male. Mostly due to stress factors that come into play with raising a family.

One has to balance things...so right now the most important issue is the health of the mother. And from the way you discribed the situation cage it sounds like she got her tail wraped and then broke it. With this type of injury...the tissue will die off and the glider will strip off the hair first and then the dead tissue.

If this were my glider....I would have the vet amputate the tail now and have it done with. Raising babies can be stressfull with a mother and with medical issues on top of trying to raise a family may prove to be too much her to deal with. Stress has a way of supressing the immune system. Should the tail become infected between now and when the babies are weaned...then one may run the risk of the infection going systemic and loosing the mother. Loosing the babies now...Mom can always have babies again. Loose Mom...then one runs the risk of loosing the babies and the mother.

Never put an e-collar on a female if she has wee ones in pouch. Mom has to be able to stimulate and clean the tiny ones as well as the inside of her pouch.

Once the tail is amputated...be sure to ask for some sort of pain management for supportive care at home. Injured tails can be quite painfull and often this is why the glider mutilates their tails once injured.


Edited by Judie (09/17/04 08:04 PM)
_________________________
Web site: www.MyLittleGremlin.com

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#26347 - 09/18/04 10:04 AM Re: Self mutilation [Re: ]
Srlb Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 10/30/03
Posts: 16734
Loc: St. Johns, Florida
This is a VERY interesting thread going on...

I dont have joeys nor ANY experience in any of this but this did raise a question for me to ask, hope you all dont mind.

My question is, if she were to have the tail amputated now, wouldnt that mean the glider would have to go through surgery and be put under and wouldnt that cause harm to the joeys that are in pouch?
And after surgery, wouldnt the mom have to be put on meds, both for pain and prevent infection, which would than cause the joeys even more harm to the immune system or physical appearance possibly?

I only thought of this because when us women get pregnant there is NOTHING our doctors want us to take and surgeries are usually ALWAYS out of the question unless it is a medical emergency.

I think a LOT of us are going to learn a lot by this thread.

I will be sending prayers and good thoughts for your momma glider to recover fully and have healthy joeys.
_________________________
Peggy
Critter Love
Critter LoveŽ Diet Center

If you want to know what a person is like, watch how he treats others.

You'll never know what the outcome is if you don't step up and try.


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#26348 - 09/18/04 10:35 AM Re: Self mutilation [Re: ]
queenduck Offline
Serious Glideritis

Registered: 03/06/02
Posts: 6249
Loc: Kansas
Well, I have no experience with mutilators eithor. But, I think I would risk the babies, if they are risked at all, and go with Judies thought of having the tail taken care of now. Without mom, joeys won't make it anyways.
_________________________
Alicia aka Queenduck, Bentley's Nana

We need role models who are going to break the mold ~ Carly Simon

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#26349 - 09/18/04 11:14 AM Re: Self mutilation [Re: ]
Critter Creations Offline
Glider Addict

Registered: 11/02/00
Posts: 3398
Loc: Rock Falls, IL, USA
I am so glad people with more experience than I have come and helped answer these questions. I believe that I have to agree with Judie on this one. There is a chance of something happening to the joeys by her going into surgery and possibly going on meds, but it would be better to lose the joeys than to lose the mother and the babies. Your right about the e-collar Judie I failed to remember the mother needed access to the joeys as well. I do think the tail needs to be taken care of now though, just as Judie said. Of course you will have to make this tough decision and no matter what you decide we are here for you. Please keep us updated on what happens with her and her little ones. I will have them in my thoughts and prayers.
_________________________
Danielle
owned by 4 dogs and 2 gliders really soon
Formerly known as K & D Exotics


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#26350 - 09/18/04 11:17 AM Re: Self mutilation [Re: ]
Charlie H Offline
Glider Slave

Registered: 11/13/03
Posts: 1659
Loc: Wallis Texas
Since the vet amputated back to a joint in the tail it is now possible to save the mom and joeys both with proper care. The use of oral antibiotics and pain med can be avoided until after the joeys are weaned. Assuming this is the result of an injury. If the mom was actually mutilating for some other reason it is an entirely different situation.
Charlie H
_________________________
Rescue & Rehabilation
http://www.angelfire.com/tx/glidertree/
[]glidertree@toast.net[/]

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#26351 - 09/18/04 01:01 PM Re: Self mutilation [Re: ]
Judie Offline
Serious Glideritis

Registered: 10/25/01
Posts: 9173
Loc: Edwardsville, Kansas 66113
I beleive the vet only removed a piece of bone that was exposed. No surgery was done to remove damaged tissue. Antibiotic was perscribed by the vet to reduce the possibility of infection. Therefor the med needs to be administered as perscribed.

To prevent the normal flora in the stomach and intestines from overgroth of certain normal fungus....Yogurt or BenBac from the vet can be administered.

As to giving an antibiotic to a mother....one has to put the mothers health first. While it is true that antibiotics are not good for the wee ones....most of the time...antibiotics do not effect the babies. Therefor the benefit of them being used out weighs the risk.

As for pain meds being given after any type of surgery...pain management should be administered for after care as well. No animal or human should be expected to suffer needlessly. Pain alone can cause stress...with possibility of the mother not being able to lactate her own young.

Personaly at this point...I feel the poster needs to consult with her vet again and discuss the benefits of doing the amputation now verses waiting till babies are weaned. Then perhaps she can make the right decision for her glider that she will be comfortable with.
_________________________
Web site: www.MyLittleGremlin.com

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