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#270849 - 04/25/07 04:42 PM Why are we feeding these diets???
Anonymous
Unregistered


I have been researching diets for about 6 months now...JUST diets and ....I really want to hear what you guys think....There are NO right or wrong answers here...I'm truly interested and want to hear your opinions!



Why with all the years experience in Australia (the Healesville or Marsupial Society) Do we choose to feed our "proven" diets?
We have a few vets (Dr. Debra McDonald, Dr. Rosemary Booth, Dr. Johnson-Delaney a US vet), that have recommended diets and have spent their careers developing them...Why are we not using these?

How do US diets become "proven"?

thanks for giving me all your opinions

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#270894 - 04/25/07 05:13 PM Re: Why are we feeding these diets??? [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


When I first got gliders I fed a 1/3 protien, 1/3 fruits, 1/3 veggies I mixed myself. My first two babies were rejected and my third was cannibilized so I switched to BML. My babies were good on BML but I noticed my gliders were all turning reddish and brownish. I wasn't happy with that so I swiched a few months ago to the High Protien Wambaroo diet from Peggy. My gliders are going back to their normal colors. I still don't feel like it's perfect, but it's the best I feel I can do because of the wambaroo.


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#270905 - 04/25/07 05:18 PM Re: Why are we feeding these diets??? [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


I dont know how they are proven
We use the diets because they are the best diet avablie for our gliders.
I use Suncoast/Zookeeper diet I am very happy with it premade easy to feed and they are very health and happy

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#270912 - 04/25/07 05:24 PM Re: Why are we feeding these diets??? [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Quote:
We use the diets because they are the best diet avablie for our gliders


Great! so please tell me why do you feel they are the best or better than the other diets reserched by vets and from Australia ??

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#270931 - 04/25/07 05:55 PM Re: Why are we feeding these diets??? [Re: ]
silverwolf Offline
Glider Slave

Registered: 06/15/05
Posts: 1732
Loc: Utah
To answer your question kris I think its mainly because there are alot of things that they have in Australia that we just do not have access to here in the US. There are alot of differences in people food just in the united states. There are things that people buy back east that are not available in the west and visa versa. So with that in mind we cannot provide and australian diet here in the united states. It would be like us going to china and wanting hush puppies and grits it aint going to happen. I know that alot of people have worked on trying to create the best mix possible for these guys. I know that I use pracilla price's diet and she did work with a vet and others to create it for their health. So I guess that if you had the money and the availability and wanted to do it then you could feed whatever it is that they feed in Australia. Just remember tho the folige and everything is different than it is here.

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#270933 - 04/25/07 05:58 PM Re: Why are we feeding these diets??? [Re: silverwolf]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Quote:
To answer your question kris I think its mainly because there are alot of things that they have in Australia that we just do not have access to here in the US


Do you happen to know what the "things" are that are not available here?

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#270982 - 04/25/07 06:49 PM Re: Why are we feeding these diets??? [Re: ]
ValkyrieMome Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 01/13/07
Posts: 10983
Loc: Denton, TX
I know that for one thing, Australian honey is different than what we can get here. You could import it. I know there are other ingredients - the baby food here is different than there. We don't have the "High Protien" baby food, I think.

I'll look up the other things.
_________________________
Alden
"Animals can communicate quite well. And they do. And generally speaking, they are ignored." Alice Walker


Mom to Valhalla; 6 cats; 1 macaw; 2 hedgehogs;
and very many great gliders!

(plus the 2 skin kids)
valkyriegliders.com

Kyrie, nothing will ever fill the hole you left in my heart.

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#270985 - 04/25/07 06:53 PM Re: Why are we feeding these diets??? [Re: ValkyrieMome]
Mel2mdl Offline
Glider Addict

Registered: 07/20/06
Posts: 4212
Loc: Garland, TX
Cat food is also different overseas compared to the US. As well as the amounts of pesticides used. I don't know the others.
_________________________
Molly, son & husband:

Chairman Meow
Oscar & Thomas
Sam, Diego, Delilah, Delia :wfb:
Nevada, Noel
Marcel, Dakota, Latte
Dexter, Didi, Almond, Joy and Fitz
:grey:
Karl,Lenny,Jynxie,Chamille, Kee & Mr. Beans in my heart forever.
Teaching teenagers-part joy, part guerilla warfare! :rbridge:

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#270986 - 04/25/07 06:55 PM Re: Why are we feeding these diets??? [Re: ValkyrieMome]
Anonymous
Unregistered


I agree we have different items
There are different diets but alot of them are for what suits you best really. Like a diet in Australian probaly has the items you can get in Australian and American diet has items you get in America.

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#270992 - 04/25/07 07:02 PM Re: Why are we feeding these diets??? [Re: ]
ValkyrieMome Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 01/13/07
Posts: 10983
Loc: Denton, TX
I think it is slightly more complicated than that.

From my understanding, Bourbon (the "B" in BML) did alot of research. She started with the original Leadbeaters diet, then made modifications that included more readily available ingredients in the US, and also, I think, made it as simple as possible. (The more difficult and time-consuming to prepare a pet food is, the less likely people are to follow it exactly)

My understanding is that she did this by studying all the ratios of nutrients in the original Leadbeaters, and then duplicating those as closely as possible.

Now - I could be wrong. It could be that Bourbon just eyeballed it and threw stuff together in a "best guess" kind of way. But, I really don't think so. I know that very many gliders are very healthy on BML. Truth be told, I don't really know what process she used to formulate BML. I think I read about it once? But I think I remember that she did work with a vet?
_________________________
Alden
"Animals can communicate quite well. And they do. And generally speaking, they are ignored." Alice Walker


Mom to Valhalla; 6 cats; 1 macaw; 2 hedgehogs;
and very many great gliders!

(plus the 2 skin kids)
valkyriegliders.com

Kyrie, nothing will ever fill the hole you left in my heart.

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#271019 - 04/25/07 07:33 PM Re: Why are we feeding these diets??? [Re: ValkyrieMome]
Anonymous
Unregistered


http://www.sugargliderinfo.com/NutritionAndDiets/#DIETS

"Burbon's diet Page"

Scroll to the bottom the last paragraph explains alot...

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#271296 - 04/26/07 07:32 AM Re: Why are we feeding these diets??? [Re: ValkyrieMome]
Marz Offline
Glider Guardian

Registered: 09/06/05
Posts: 708
Loc: Melbourne Australia
Originally Posted By: ValkyrieMome
I think it is slightly more complicated than that.

From my understanding, Bourbon (the "B" in BML) did alot of research. She started with the original Leadbeaters diet, then made modifications that included more readily available ingredients in the US, and also, I think, made it as simple as possible. (The more difficult and time-consuming to prepare a pet food is, the less likely people are to follow it exactly)

My understanding is that she did this by studying all the ratios of nutrients in the original Leadbeaters, and then duplicating those as closely as possible.

Now - I could be wrong. It could be that Bourbon just eyeballed it and threw stuff together in a "best guess" kind of way. But, I really don't think so. I know that very many gliders are very healthy on BML. Truth be told, I don't really know what process she used to formulate BML. I think I read about it once? But I think I remember that she did work with a vet?


Hi Val

I was under the impression that the original leadbetters mix was modified by someone else in the US and then Bourbon modified that modified Leadbetters mix (confusing huh?). If that was so, Bourbon would not have studied the ratios of the Australian leadbetters mix but the already modified US one.

Maybe Bourbon can step in here and clarify this for us all.


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#271335 - 04/26/07 08:58 AM Re: Why are we feeding these diets??? [Re: Marz]
Anonymous
Unregistered


I know this isn't really a comparison of Australian diets vs. US ones --I really don't have enough knowledge on either to make a good argument or contribution to that discussion one way or another. That, and I can't really speak for everyone in their diet choice. I don't know why people feed the diet they do, however, I do feel it is better to direct someone new to gliders to a diet plan, rather than tell them to just feed whatever. I think it's safe to say that a lot of us don't understand the workings of nutrition.

I chose the diet that I've settled on based on a few factors.
My gliders like it: No diet, no matter how balanced or perfect, is any good if your gliders won't eat it.
My gliders are healthy: Granted, their vet check is coming up, but I've yet to have a bad one, and have gotten compliments on them during past ones.
My gliders are active and playful: minus their catnaps, they are insane. I'm surprised their wheels are still standing, and when I let them out of the cage--look out! Maybe they do need a sedative...
I like the vitamin: It's a mammalian multi-vitamin but also incorporates the nectar, bee pollen, acacia gum, etc. In this form, it is easier for me to obtain. I don't know if that's the lazy way to go about it, but it's the best way for me. I also wouldn't feel comfortable getting the components, then offering them as is. I just really don't have that much knowledge or understanding in the workings of a diet, or vitamin and mineral interactions.

Which I guess comes to the idea of a proven diet. Maybe that word is misused, but my idea of a proven diet has always been one that has been used by many years with success. Success being healthy gliders, healthy offspring, longevity, etc.

OK, I was probably all over the board on this. This week (especially with the weather) has turned my brain to complete mush. (Oh, and my coffee cup is empty!)

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#271540 - 04/26/07 12:29 PM Re: Why are we feeding these diets??? [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


With permission from PocketFaeries...I am adding her excellent post!
Quote:
This is an *excellent* post. Absolutely excellent.

I researched gliders for 7 years prior to having Trink and Spark, but very *little* of that was spent on questioning any of the proven US diets. I focused mostly on other subjects. Why? Everything is so clearly mapped out for me in the various formulas that exist that it seemed like as a new person to the glider world, I would do the best for my gliders by following a diet that works for the masses. Until I joined here at GA, you know I was never exposed to the *idea* that perhaps the US diets may have flaws or holes in them? Not even once did I read anything about that. So at the time, I had no reason to go beyond the very basic instructional form of these diets...I thought my work was to choose one from a reputable list, stick with it, and all would be well. And I did. Like a "good" glider mommy, I read, researched the diets that are already "proven," (never questioning what "proven" actually encapsulated here) and I settled on PML as sounding excellent, and I bought the pre-determined ingredient list and served it. Safe! Good! Responsible! Right?

I have *since* learned so much. My gliders are still getting a US proven diet...I'm right now trying BML with them, in fact. I've learned more in the past 2 months on healthy dietary issues than I have in all 7 years combined of glider research. I'm not a dietician. I'm not a vet. I'm just an informed consumer and glider caregiver. But that caregiver piece gives me a responsibility to learn, think, and question because in all caregiving circles, whether it's parenting children, training puppies, or loving gliders, there will be a "majority" opinion, a sometimes coherent (and other times not) professional consensus, and a whole lot of speculation in between. Having said that, I think the biggest issue about diets for gliders is not actually the diets themselves, believe it or not. I think it's the *stigma* that people attach to words, the *popularity* that people associate with efficacy, and the *fear* that people have of change.

People have been taught to automatically cringe and have a visceral, horrified reaction when they hear the words "cat food" used with gliders. "It's for cats...not gliders!" I read *most* opposition saying about it (NOT all...some people most certainly have facts and nutritional beliefs to back their concerns...this is NOT a blanket statement). Baby food is for babies. Wheat germ is for humans. Yogurt is for humans. It's the same concept...but there has not been a stigma attached to one school of thought, while the cat food folks are being martyred and crucified for their beliefs on many threads on many boards (NOT here...I love GA ). So people like me who are otherwise intelligent, informed consumers and caregivers often do not even stand a chance of becoming *truly* well informed with a well-rounded, objective diet education on gliders, because any voice other than the popular voice is often slammed into submission, retreat, or made to look inhumane. I think *this* is the worst service we can do to gliders. People need to *think* in order to continue *improving* glider care. New ideas should be examined...and dismissed if need be...but examined with open, scientific, not emotional responses. And I say new, understanding at this point that cat food and much of what folks like Moorie and others advocate are not new at all...they are just a different voice. In 7 years, I did not gain proper exposure to that voice. I didn't even know I should be listening for it, truth be told! People are so definitive about their opinions on diets, that the fact that we actually have *choice* in our approaches beyond the usual suspects is muffled and masked.

I am continuing to feed my gliders a US proven diet at the moment, because I just don't feel that I'm qualified, educated, or experienced enough with their nutritional needs to meet them on my own. But I am working on becoming educated that way, and I am in contact with my vet, who helps me through the learning process. There are some things that just aren't adding up for either of us in my analytical mindset...gliders changing colors back to natural grey after getting on a new diet, feeding so much sugar and teeth issues, providing vitamins over direct nutrition sources in some instances, etc. These are *NOT* criticisms of any diet...they are merely questions that I have yet to feel comfortable with any given answers on. They are the voice of reason in the back of my head saying, "15 years of native study and dietary practice, with virtually no ill results. Why can't we work harder to replicate this and find equivalent food values to use in the US?" I hope we will all take at least some time to *consider* Moorie's points. I know I am! It seems to be open here, and people respond to sane, clearly intelligent concepts nicely. I'm sad to see so many others finding the "fight" in diet topics instead of the "facts" in diet topics elsewhere. It doesn't mean we don't adore Bourbon or her diet, both of which seem to be lovely to me. But it does mean that when we stop *thinking* about any topic, when we stop allowing the possibility of improvements to be made, we lose opportunities to make things better in our world. We once thought the world was flat. We had to change that in order to move ahead. Change is a great thing when tempered by fact, compassion, and wisdom. Gliders can benefit from change. We are still learning as a "captive" glider society about them. I'd like to continue on that learning journey, and Moorie, I will walk arm in arm with ya' any day on asking these questions!!!


--------------------

"Be the change you wish to see in this world."
-Gandhi

"Live Your Dreams."
-Faery Wisdom

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#271569 - 04/26/07 01:00 PM Re: Why are we feeding these diets??? [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


I have had my baby for 11days... I have read ALOT of things about diet. I think my baby was malnourished when she came to me frown I have been feeding her a selection of fresh fruits and vegs everynight, licky treats of babyfood during the day, protein pellets all the time, and shrimp with her food at night. I am trying to get all the ingredients together to put her on BML. Is she going to be o.k. in the mean time? This is the only subject I feel completely incompitent to make a decision dunno

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#271670 - 04/26/07 03:02 PM Re: Why are we feeding these diets??? [Re: ]
Gossamer Offline
Glider Slave

Registered: 11/22/06
Posts: 1667
Loc: Long Island, NY
The shrimp concerns me. I'd rather see you feed him some boiled chicken, scrambled (without butter or anything) or boiled eggs or yogurt instead of the shrimp. He will need a vitamin and calcium supplement, but he should be alright until you get the bml together.
_________________________
Jeannine

3 Cats (Spike, Kismet, Honeycat)
1 understanding Husband
1 WFB Neutered Glider boy - Grissom! (oop 8/7/06) :wfb:
1 BB Glider girl- Willows! (oop 1/7/07) :bb:

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#271672 - 04/26/07 03:05 PM Re: Why are we feeding these diets??? [Re: Gossamer]
Carrie T Offline
Glider Addict

Registered: 06/10/01
Posts: 4049
Loc: Doniphan Mo
Very well spoken as usual PocketFaeries clap

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#271676 - 04/26/07 03:07 PM Re: Why are we feeding these diets??? [Re: Carrie T]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Thank you. I was feeding her boiled eggs, but a guy I know feeds his frozen corn, shrimp, and avacado, and apples. That's it. His glider is 7 years old, and has never been sick??????

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#271677 - 04/26/07 03:14 PM Re: Why are we feeding these diets??? [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Yeah, I used to smoke and only eat food if it was fried or covered in cheese at 5'6" and 112 lbs and never sick either...some people just aren't prone to being sick even treating themselves horribly and some people do everything right and die of a heart attack. Genetics and the "you never know"factor.

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#271717 - 04/26/07 04:05 PM Re: Why are we feeding these diets??? [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Thanks, Carrie T, that's a lovely compliment! I talk a lot, so it's bound to happen that sometimes something good comes out. LOL laugh

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#271726 - 04/26/07 04:15 PM Re: Why are we feeding these diets??? [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Originally Posted By: Leisl
Yeah, I used to smoke and only eat food if it was fried or covered in cheese at 5'6" and 112 lbs and never sick either...some people just aren't prone to being sick even treating themselves horribly and some people do everything right and die of a heart attack. Genetics and the "you never know"factor.


Excellent point! I have never heard of feeding a suggie any sort of sea food, so I'd imagine there's a reason for it be it lack in nutrition or be it dangerous somehow. I agree that it's just easier and more widely known to be ok/healthy to give eggs or chicken smile This is all speculation - I'm nowhere near as knowlegable as others that have posted prior to me!

Good luck and congrats wink

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#271733 - 04/26/07 04:19 PM Re: Why are we feeding these diets??? [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Thanks, Brittney! Mind you, I'd rather still eat whatever I want and smoke! Being healthy is not as fun... smile

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#271741 - 04/26/07 04:25 PM Re: Why are we feeding these diets??? [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Thank You for that pocketfaerie. That was very well said. clap

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#271748 - 04/26/07 04:36 PM Re: Why are we feeding these diets??? [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Thanks! I am trying to get everything here for my baby!!!! By this weekend, she should be on a good diet.

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#272176 - 04/27/07 12:39 AM Re: Why are we feeding these diets??? [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Wow @ this thread. smile

Mikey dance

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#272219 - 04/27/07 03:11 AM Re: Why are we feeding these diets??? [Re: Gossamer]
eccles Offline
Out of Pouch

Registered: 12/11/05
Posts: 63
Loc: Devon
Originally Posted By: Gossamer
The shrimp concerns me. I'd rather see you feed him some boiled chicken, scrambled (without butter or anything) or boiled eggs or yogurt instead of the shrimp. He will need a vitamin and calcium supplement, but he should be alright until you get the bml together.


Not a direct answer to you but your quote seemed apropriate sorry

People are aware that insectivore Fare which alot of people use contains shrimp in the form of shrimp meal (whole or parts of good quality shrimp added aparently)and fish meal (same again whole or parts of good quality fish with oru without oil added)

http://www.zoofood.com/insectivore.shtml
_________________________
www.southwest-sugargliders.co.uk

For all your UK and EU sugar glider needs!

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#272268 - 04/27/07 08:04 AM Re: Why are we feeding these diets??? [Re: Mel2mdl]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Originally Posted By: Mel2mdl
Cat food is also different overseas compared to the US. As well as the amounts of pesticides used. I don't know the others.


Very curious here....for those that feed their gliders cat food here in the US, what type are you feeding?

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#272578 - 04/27/07 02:43 PM Re: Why are we feeding these diets??? [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Well, I don't happen to use it as part of my diet. I have seen mention on a very high quality food.... Dick Van Pattens natural balance ultra premium. I feed my dogs and cats the INNOVA by Natura...which has excellent ingredietns for my dogs and cats BUT not sure if that is up to par....so better to ask you vet.

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#272628 - 04/27/07 03:41 PM Re: Why are we feeding these diets??? [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Well, obviously I cannot speak for all present, only myself. The reason I have chosen the diet I have is based on 3 things:


1) concern for my gliders' well being
2) concern for my pocketbook
3) laziness (yes, I will admit this)



To explain in greater detail:
1) the breeder I purchased my gliders from fed his entire brood nothing but fruit salad and cat food, plus a little RepCal. They were all healthy and he had a few personal gliders that were nearly a decade old, and had been in the glider business for 17 years. Obviously this diet keeps them alive and relatively healthy. But despite that, having read about the alleged dangers of catfood online, I elected to take a different route. (BML) I even have a sack of catfood the breeder gave me with the gliders, but due to all the online fuss, I am somewhat nervous to feed it to them. Call me paranoid. But I figure the cost of BML ingredients buys me cheap peace of mind.
2) Despite the fact that Australian researchers are very keen on feeding gliders acacia gum and eucalyptus products, they do NOT grow where I live, and they are unrealistically expensive to import. (compared to BML, which I can make out of ingredients from the WalMart across the street). Clearly these are not necessary for glider survival or 95% of American gliders would be dead.
3) Some of the diets I have read about might possibly have greater benefits than BML, or be slightly cheaper. But almost none of them are easier. And no matter how healthy a diet might be, if I do not have time to fully implement it, it is useless. Busy though I may be, it is not too bad to spend half an hour every other week blending an ice cube tray's worth of BML. And chopping up some fruit and veggies every night isn't too hard either, especially since I eat the same fruits and veggies and can make dinner for the humans in my house at the same time as the gliders.

In the end, I think most folks wind up looking at these three aspects of a particular diet, and trying to find a balance that works for them.

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#272643 - 04/27/07 04:04 PM Re: Why are we feeding these diets??? [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


PROVEN just means....... to learn or find out by experience.

And I would say we are using the SG diets for they have been proven over the years (by many breeders and wild life personnel) to keep Sugar Gliders healthy and their coats looking good - just like any dog, bird, hamster or cat food etc... we buy that which have been proven to maintain good heath in our pets and that which is still on the market.

I have been doing much research and I have come to the conclusion that any of the LedBeaters diets are fine, for they are all basically the same, with a few variations.

a Sugar Gliders diet is made up of 5 parts:

1 - Fresh Protein
2 - Fruits & Vegetables
3 - Staple Food: LB Mix or Prepared food ex: ZK Secrets
4 - Supplements: Vitamins & Calcium (1 tsp v - 2 tsp c)
5 - FRESH WATER - Daily

* * * * * * * *

Hope this INFO helps....... smile

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