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#27151 - 10/07/04 10:21 AM Weird Sound might be sign of SM!! Terrified!!!!
Anonymous
Unregistered


I have been reading stuff on this forum all night and I came across the section on self mutilation and now I am terrified. My glider, Maverick, is about 10 weeks OOP and about two/two and half weeks ago I started noticing that he would make a strange noise when he was in his pouch in his cage seemingly asleep. He has always sneezed a lot and this seemed like a combination of a sneeze and crabbing sounds. I just assumed it was something that was a quirk of his because whenever I would check on him after he made the noise, he just looked up at me like everything was ok. The noise wasn't loud and it didn't sound painful or threatening, so I just ignored it. Now I notice that he is making the sound while what appears to be him cleaning his tail. He never does it when out of his pouch so I can't get a good look at what he is doing. When I pull him out to investigate, part of his tail seems wet but there is no apparent sores or blood. Should I be worried? This sounds like it could be a warning sign for Self Mutilation. I should also say that I introduced another glider into his life about two weeks ago but it seemed like he was making the noise before that, but I can't be sure. Please Help!! I have stayed up all night trying to study for a test today but I have been completely unable to focus at all because I have been trying to figure this out. I'm sure yall understand!

Justin

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#27152 - 10/07/04 01:01 PM Re: Weird Sound might be sign of SM!! Terrified!!!! [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Im sorry to hear about this. It could be SM. I would go see a vet esp if the tail is sometimes wet, but it could be from him cleaning it also, which is what it sounds like if you dont see any visible probs. I would still be safe and see a vet. I know I have 2 and my male makes a hissing noise in his bag and sometimes a little crabbing noise, but I found out he does it when the female is cleaning his ears when he's asleep, so maybe one is cleaning the other? Some more details would probably be useful, but like I said I would have a vet check then u can rest easy at night. I really hope your baby is ok..let us know

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#27153 - 10/07/04 02:02 PM Re: Weird Sound might be sign of SM!! Terrified!!!! [Re: ]
Judie Offline
Serious Glideritis

Registered: 10/25/01
Posts: 9173
Loc: Edwardsville, Kansas 66113
Not sure what to say. Do you have two males together and if so are they both babies? If one is much older this could become a problem.

Is your glider constipated by chance? Stools will be small, hard and very dry looking or unable to pooh at all. If this is the problem...give him a drop of mineral oil mixed with a bit of orange juice. Then make sure he consumes more fruit and veggies with his BML. If not on the BML diet plan then slightly wet his dry food with apple juice and give fruit and veggies with it.

If constipation is not a problem...then suggest a vet check ASAP. Ask for a fecal smear and also a float with a cytology to determine wither or not he has a bacterial or parasitic problem. Also...ask for a UA to rule out a possible UTI.

Have an e-collar handy and do not be afraid to use it if you think he may chew.
_________________________
Web site: www.MyLittleGremlin.com

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#27154 - 10/07/04 02:09 PM Re: Weird Sound might be sign of SM!! Terrified!!!! [Re: ]
Judie Offline
Serious Glideritis

Registered: 10/25/01
Posts: 9173
Loc: Edwardsville, Kansas 66113
I am going to post a link to the Self Mutilation Site. There you will find directions on how to make an e-collar. Also, there are contacts to help you if you need more help.

Go to www.gliderhealth.com/slfmutl/index.html
_________________________
Web site: www.MyLittleGremlin.com

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#27155 - 10/07/04 03:33 PM Re: Weird Sound might be sign of SM!! Terrified!!!! [Re: ]
Xfilefan Offline
Serious Glideritis

Registered: 02/22/03
Posts: 8899
Loc: Jacksonville, FL
Justin-
It is possible he is in the early stages. Here is a link to an audio file that was made of a self-mutilator named Bandit:

Bandit Sound

Does it sound anything like this? When my Riker started mutilating, the first couple days every time I looked in he'd just look up at me like, "What?". I described it as a hiss/crab, it was crabbing, but with something else mixed in, due to pain. Here is the link for the ecollar directions again, and I will post a pic of a finished collar both on and off the glider.

E Collar

I can help walk you through getting it on, and with what to do after. You need to make sure he doesn't do any damage to his cloacal area, and get to the vet for urine and fecal tests with cytology.(float and smear on fecals). If he chews and damages himself, his chances of survival drop.

Here is my home number. I will be here until 5:20 PM Mountain time. 1-435-783-6097. Between 6 and 10:30 I will be at work, and will send that number to you in a PM. Please call and I'll be more than happy to help with this.

Attaching Pic One-just the collar


Attachments
286613-ECOLLAR.jpg (25 downloads)

_________________________
Jen/Colin :bb: Commander Riker 12 16 02-10 04 12 you will be FOREVER missed :wfb: Sinbad, :wfb: Gabby, :grey: Baby, and :grey: Alley

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#27156 - 10/07/04 03:38 PM Re: Weird Sound might be sign of SM!! Terrified!!!! [Re: ]
Xfilefan Offline
Serious Glideritis

Registered: 02/22/03
Posts: 8899
Loc: Jacksonville, FL
Second pic-Riker in collar


Attachments
286616-RikerinECollarMay2003.jpg (27 downloads)

_________________________
Jen/Colin :bb: Commander Riker 12 16 02-10 04 12 you will be FOREVER missed :wfb: Sinbad, :wfb: Gabby, :grey: Baby, and :grey: Alley

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#27157 - 10/07/04 03:42 PM Re: Weird Sound might be sign of SM!! Terrified!!!! [Re: ]
Judie Offline
Serious Glideritis

Registered: 10/25/01
Posts: 9173
Loc: Edwardsville, Kansas 66113
Waiting for an update on the status of this glider. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/worried2.gif" alt="" />
_________________________
Web site: www.MyLittleGremlin.com

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#27158 - 10/07/04 03:45 PM Re: Weird Sound might be sign of SM!! Terrified!!!! [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Our lilly used to make this sound... the sm sound, but she has never hurt herself that we know of. when i first saw her (at someone elses house) she made the sound all night long, but i don't remember the last time she did it. i still worry about it resurfacing though.

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#27159 - 10/07/04 05:08 PM Re: Weird Sound might be sign of SM!! Terrified!!!! [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Wow, thanks for all the replies, I was really [censored] out. I just got back from the vet and have calmed down. He did a fecal test and said that there was lots of bacteria in it, but did not seem too concerned. He gave me some antibiotic and told me to bring him back next week or sooner if needed. I mentioned that I read that Mav could possibly have a UTI but I don't think he did the UA. The things it lists on the bill are:

Intestinal Parasite Exam, direct
Intestinal Parasite Exam, Floatation
Microscopic Analysis

Maybe he did do it, I'm not sure. I feel better about things, the sound mav makes is somewhat similar to the sound file above, but it isn't as high pitched and it isn't continuous. Hopefully the antibiotics will take care of what ails him and he will be ok. Thanks again everyone, I will keep you guys updated.

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#27160 - 10/07/04 05:30 PM Re: Weird Sound might be sign of SM!! Terrified!!!! [Re: ]
Xfilefan Offline
Serious Glideritis

Registered: 02/22/03
Posts: 8899
Loc: Jacksonville, FL
The sound file is looped, to get a better listen. A mutilator may not make it long, but it is distinctive from their other noises, and is indicative of pain. The antibiotic may take care of a UTI, which antibiotic did the vet give you? (the tests listed did not include a UA). If he continues to make the noise, or pay attention to his cloacal/tail area, I would still recommend a collar-have one on hand if nothing else. Gliders have been known to do critical damage to themselves within an hour and without much warning-like the time it takes to drive to the vet. The thing is, they seem to be trying to attack the area that hurts, like they are under attack, not realizing they are making it worse-hence more pain, more chewing, more noises, etc. and SM is a vicious cycle. If he is still making the noise, I would say better safe than sorry with the collar. I'd hate to read about another glider who tore his own insides out. I know this sounds scary and I'm not trying to scare you, but want you to be aware of what can happen without constant vigilance with these guys. There was a SM glider named Napoleon last year-the damage that killed him was done in his pouch on the way to the vet. You really need to watch this guy around the clock (literally) if he's not in a collar and still making that noise. I am available by phone for any questions, concerns, and your little guy is in our prayers.
_________________________
Jen/Colin :bb: Commander Riker 12 16 02-10 04 12 you will be FOREVER missed :wfb: Sinbad, :wfb: Gabby, :grey: Baby, and :grey: Alley

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#27161 - 10/07/04 05:40 PM Re: Weird Sound might be sign of SM!! Terrified!!!! [Re: ]
Judie Offline
Serious Glideritis

Registered: 10/25/01
Posts: 9173
Loc: Edwardsville, Kansas 66113
The bacteria problem is usually from stress of a new home. Stress supresses the immune system...and the normal flora then become out of sync. Thus a bacterial overgrowth.

Your little one will now be on his way to recovery within a week or so with the help of the antibiotic. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

The tests your vet did were correct. If nothing had showed up then a UA would have been needed. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumb.gif" alt="" />
_________________________
Web site: www.MyLittleGremlin.com

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#27162 - 10/07/04 07:54 PM Re: Weird Sound might be sign of SM!! Terrified!!!! [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


The sound he makes doesn't sound intense enough to suggest immense pain, but he also hasn't started biting anything yet. I think he is just constantly licking his tail because there are no visible wounds or sores, just wet matted hair. The antibiotic the vet gave me is Baytril suspension, getting him to take it twice a day should be an adventure in itself. He also suggested that I seperate Maverick and my newly (2 weeks ago) acquired female glider Goose because one may give something to the other if they haven't already. I am bringing Goose in with Mav next week to get her checked out. The vet also scared me a bit, he was checking around the cloacal area and said that he did not see the testicles. He insinuated that the guy I bought Mav from may have lied and told me it was a boy when it was really a girl! He also said that sometimes the testicles may not have become visible yet. According to the guy I bought him from, he was 4 weeks oop, which I now know is quite young to be sold, but that would make him 10 weeks now. Should I be able to see the testicles by now? This has been the worst day... <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

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#27163 - 10/07/04 11:09 PM Re: Weird Sound might be sign of SM!! Terrified!!!! [Re: ]
the gliders angel Offline
Glider Addict

Registered: 08/08/01
Posts: 3058
Loc: u.s.a.
weather male or female they both need love and it shouldnt matter their both great just get him on a good proven diet like BML and bottled spring water to prevent giardia in many tap water. never used distilled though it eats up the minerals in their bodies. i buy gallon jugs of spring water and use it myself and for the gliders

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#27164 - 10/08/04 12:53 AM Re: Weird Sound might be sign of SM!! Terrified!!!! [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Oh I know, I'm not saying it really matters to me if it is a boy or a girl I just really don't appreciate being lied to. Amazingly I already used bottled spring water because it's what I drink so I thought why should they have to drink tap water if I don't?

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#27165 - 10/08/04 02:38 AM Re: Weird Sound might be sign of SM!! Terrified!!!! [Re: ]
Xfilefan Offline
Serious Glideritis

Registered: 02/22/03
Posts: 8899
Loc: Jacksonville, FL
A male's pom pom (what we call it here on GC, 'cause it kinda looks like one) usually drops between 3 and 7 Months Out of Pouch (OOP). The most common is around 5-6 mos OOP, so I wouldn't be concerned if you don't see it yet-he's pretty young. If there is no pouch slit on the tummy, it's probably a boy-right now his pom pom can be felt as a little bump on his tummy, approximately where a navel or belly button would be on a placental mammal (gliders don't have one). It will be white and furry when ready to drop, and once there, in warm weather can hang down an inch or so. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />
Honestly, separating the two now is like closing the barn door after the horse has escaped-if the two gliders get along and are bonding, it will only cause more stress. In all reality, she has already been exposed to anything he is carrying, several times over. Best bet is just to take her for the checkup as planned, have UA and fecals done, which is always a good idea for any new addition, and take her in sooner if you notice anything amiss.
>>Up at the top of the page, also, is a drop down menu with the blue button called Off Site Info. One of the links is BMXgirl's glider anatomy pages. If you go there, there are pics of what both male and female glider anatomy looks like. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
_________________________
Jen/Colin :bb: Commander Riker 12 16 02-10 04 12 you will be FOREVER missed :wfb: Sinbad, :wfb: Gabby, :grey: Baby, and :grey: Alley

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#27166 - 10/08/04 04:26 AM Re: Weird Sound might be sign of SM!! Terrified!!!! [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" /> Wow, I feel like a moron, the guy I bought my glider from definitely lied to me...HE is a SHE... Guess I have to rethink her name now. Also, whenever I put her in a pouch, either her bonding pouch or the pouch in her cage, she looks like she is pulling her hair out with her teeth on her tail and shoulder blade and possibly some other places. I don't think she is harming herself but it is starting to scare me.

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#27167 - 10/08/04 04:41 AM Re: Weird Sound might be sign of SM!! Terrified!!!! [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


[:"magenta"]can you actually see bald patches where the fur used to be? if so, she may be overgrooming. this can be caused by stress (like arriving at a new home) or loneliness(lack of a cagemate). i have some suggestions for names. to go with "goose," what about "duck" or "mother" or "silly"? [/]

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#27168 - 10/08/04 04:43 AM Re: Weird Sound might be sign of SM!! Terrified!!!! [Re: ]
Xfilefan Offline
Serious Glideritis

Registered: 02/22/03
Posts: 8899
Loc: Jacksonville, FL
Don't feel too bad, it has happened to others. Once you know what to look for, it won't again to you though. Stress from illness can cause overgrooming, if she is pulling hair out, especially near the cloaca, again it can be from discomfort from the infection. If she makes the discomfort worse, that's when things can cycle into a full blown case of self-mutilation. I don't know if you have an ecollar made, but it's a good idea to have it near and not let this go too far. My mutilator tends to overgroom if I can't spend several hours every day with him and is currently sporting a mohawk, but if he tries it near his tail I will put him back in a collar, or if he makes the SM noise, which he did last January with a UTI. Can you still see the gray undercoat where the hair is missing, or is it bare to the skin? If she's tearing it out completely, you maybe ought to have the vet check for mites if it's in areas unrelated to the infection. A glider with a UTI or intestinal infection tends to go for the cloaca, base of the tail, and sides due to the discomfort in there. Consider a pain med for her, ask your vet. Torb is good, but rather strong. We had Riker on a low dose valium suspension which was helpful both in relieving anxiety from the illness, and the pain, and a bottle usually doesn't run more than 8-10 dollars. If you've ever had a urinary tract infection you know how uncomfortable they can be-let alone to an animal that doesn't understand what is happening, or that it will end. Just a suggestion.
_________________________
Jen/Colin :bb: Commander Riker 12 16 02-10 04 12 you will be FOREVER missed :wfb: Sinbad, :wfb: Gabby, :grey: Baby, and :grey: Alley

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#27169 - 10/08/04 05:11 AM Re: Weird Sound might be sign of SM!! Terrified!!!! [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


They are eating right now so I will definitely check on the fur in a minute, but I think over grooming is definitely the problem, it seems like that is all she does. Ya know, that's too bad she is a girl because I thought Maverick and Goose may have been the greatest name pairing I have ever come up with... Of course, Top Gun was my favorite movie when I was a kid, so what do I know?

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#27170 - 10/08/04 08:15 AM Re: Weird Sound might be sign of SM!! Terrified!!!! [Re: ]
SarahW Offline
Glider Lover

Registered: 01/10/04
Posts: 542
Loc: Norman, OK
One of my gliders has been making a weird noise of late - combination of hissing and crabbing (sort of). I too have been worried about SM. I start out hearing her move air past her nose (a normal noise, like right before she starts cleaning or barking) and then it's like she adds a angrier crab for a few seconds. It sounds different from the crabbing I usually hear - almost like a cross between a crab and a joey crying. She only makes it in the morning, right before I am supposed to get up (around 7 or 730), and only for about 5-10 seconds at a time (maybe three times before it's done).

I thought it might be SM but it doesn't really sound like the sound file you posted. This sounds much much closer to normal crabbing, just a slightly different type. I have checked both of my gals for signs of SM and overgrooming but have found nothing.

I guess it could also be one of a couple things:
1) Sugar never crabs - the only one who crabs regularly is Spice. So it may just be Sugar crabbing at Spice, and I'm not familiar with her angry voice. Their barks are different, why not their crabs?
2) It may be Spice angry at Sugar for wanting to stay up late and play when Spice wants to go to bed
3) It may be Spice angry that Sugar keeps trying to groom the base of her tail (this is weird in itself - Sugar is always sticking her nose under the base of Spice's tail, trying to groom. I think it is a bit farther back thsan her cloaca though).

I have narrowed down the air noises to Sugar. The problem is that they never make the angrier crab noise when I get up and go to the cage - it stops right away. So I can't ever see what is causing it. Do SMs continue their noise even when they can see you?

Please let me know what you think. I was on the board looking for that SM sound clip when I saw this thread. A vet check is coming up.

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#27171 - 10/08/04 03:04 PM Re: Weird Sound might be sign of SM!! Terrified!!!! [Re: ]
Xfilefan Offline
Serious Glideritis

Registered: 02/22/03
Posts: 8899
Loc: Jacksonville, FL
We have little 'spats' in the pouch among our family on occasion, kind of 'hey, get your foot outta my face' or 'be still, will ya, I'm trying to sleep' kind of things. They crab for a second or two and go back to sleep. A mutilator usually won't make the sound for as long as in the sound file (it's looped to give a better idea) and to start may only be a second or two, but they'll do it longer as their discomfort increases. If the noise accompanies sudden urges to 'groom' repeatedly or looks like they're chewing on themselves or that an area is unusually wet or damp from grooming, I would be concerned, or if the noise becomes more frequent. Anytime you have a question with these guys a vet check is a good idea, and have them check fecals and urine. Also, you're right, each glider's crab is slightly different, since they all have their own little voices. The mutilator sound will not sound quite like her normal crab-kind of like she's hissing at the same time. It's definitely attention getting-at first can be like you know something isn't right but can't put your finger on it. If you don't see signs of overgrooming or chewing, I'd go with the vet check as planned, but move it sooner if you notice anything getting worse just to be safe, or that she is paying a lot of attention to a particular spot with that sound. Let us know how the vet visit goes!
_________________________
Jen/Colin :bb: Commander Riker 12 16 02-10 04 12 you will be FOREVER missed :wfb: Sinbad, :wfb: Gabby, :grey: Baby, and :grey: Alley

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#27172 - 10/10/04 03:16 AM Re: Weird Sound might be sign of SM!! Terrified!!!! [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


[:"magenta"]now i am sorry if this is <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/offtopic.gif" alt="" /> but please educate me, jen. why does the area become wet when a glider self-mutilates? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/nixweiss.gif" alt="" /> what is the liquid? [/]

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