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#28032 - 10/25/04 10:13 AM Breeding 2 WFB hets together?
Anonymous
Unregistered


We were curious to see if anyone have ever breed 2 WFB hets together? And what was the joey outcome? Has anyone ever produced a WFB joey from 2 het parents? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/nixweiss.gif" alt="" />

I have read posts stating that people were wanting/planning to do this but not the results.

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#28033 - 10/25/04 11:31 PM Re: Breeding 2 WFB hets together? [Re: ]
SkyBlueGliders Offline
Glider Slave

Registered: 07/10/03
Posts: 1314
Loc: Northern New Jersey
I had plans to do this...I have the gliders just have not paired them together yet...a Male het wfb with 1 wfb parent...and a het wfb female with 2 wfb parents..i'll let u know how it goes if i pair them..

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#28034 - 10/26/04 10:59 AM Re: Breeding 2 WFB hets together? [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Thanks SkyBlueGliders! I would love to hear how you pair works out if you place them together! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> I've heard from a couple sources that they may have a possiblity of about 25% to prodcue a WF joey. But not many people have tried pairing two hets so there is not much to check that precentage against.
I have emailed Mike Sandridge because I had heard that he has breed hets together before. I'll let you know when I get a responce.

Anyone else ever paired to wf hets together? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/nixweiss.gif" alt="" />

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#28035 - 10/26/04 11:43 PM Re: Breeding 2 WFB hets together? [Re: ]
Sheila Offline
Serious Glideritis

Registered: 02/05/00
Posts: 5363
Loc: Ok
Kellie, I would think you would have a greater percentage if the hets are from two blondes parents.
_________________________
ToandFro Gliders

http://www.toandfrogliders.com

USDA Licensed breeder for 12 years and counting!

WE SELL THE STEALTH WHEEL

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#28036 - 10/27/04 01:23 AM Re: Breeding 2 WFB hets together? [Re: ]
SugarBaby22 Offline
Serious Glideritis

Registered: 07/18/02
Posts: 5697
Loc: Phoenix, AZ
Sheila~
I thought that people HAVE produced WFB joeys from 2 het parents... but has this NOT happened before? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/nixweiss.gif" alt="" /> Isn't this why people always say to get 2 hets?

How confusing!!!
_________________________
Linda

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#28037 - 10/27/04 03:50 AM Re: Breeding 2 WFB hets together? [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


I think , although I'm not sure, she's saying that the hets you are breeding would have better chances of producing WFBs if both of their parents are WFBs and not just one. So instead of One WFBxOne Het~~> One Het to be paired with another het to produce WFBs, your chances would be greater if One WFBxOne WFB~~> One Het to be paired with another Het to produce a WFB. I think that just made it more confusing <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/roflmao.gif" alt="" />. Ummm yea, well I understand what I just said <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/nixweiss.gif" alt="" />. I hope that's right! Correct me if I'm wrong or just ignore me if you don't know what I said <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />. It's late <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/sleep.gif" alt="" />

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#28038 - 10/27/04 08:48 AM Re: Breeding 2 WFB hets together? [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Sheila, I would definatly think you would get more WFB joeys if the hets both had 2 WFB parents.

I got a reply from Mike Sandridge. He said that he HAS produced WFBs from two het parents. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/yelclap.gif" alt="" /> He said the percentage is about 25% (1 of of every 4 joeys or so.) If everything works out we will have a het pairing (each having 1 wfb parent) by about March or so. We'll keep everyone updated when they have joeys!

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#28039 - 10/27/04 12:52 PM Re: Breeding 2 WFB hets together? [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


I thought you could only claim a WFB Het was a het, if they've produced WFB babies. Otherwise, how do you know for sure if it's a Het or not? Does having one white-faced parent really guarentee that babies will be carrying any white-face genes?

So wouldn't these 2 be considered *possible* hets until they have actually produced white faced babies?

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#28040 - 10/28/04 02:08 AM Re: Breeding 2 WFB hets together? [Re: ]
SugarBaby22 Offline
Serious Glideritis

Registered: 07/18/02
Posts: 5697
Loc: Phoenix, AZ
Hmmm...

I know that Sheila meant that with 2 WFB parents the hets have stronger genes... But it seems that I have always seen "pair 2 hets together" and you can get WF babies.

Speaking of genetics. Does this mean that every color is different?

*For example* You can pair a WFB to a normal colored glider and still get a WFB baby...

Can you pair a Leucistic to a normal and also have that chance of getting a Leucistic baby or must you have another het or Leucistic? Hasn't a Leucistic baby been produced by 2 hets before, if so, why would this be different from 2 blonde hets?

<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/nixweiss.gif" alt="" /> I'm just wondering how this could be different from each color.
_________________________
Linda

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#28041 - 10/28/04 03:57 AM Re: Breeding 2 WFB hets together? [Re: ]
queenduck Offline
Serious Glideritis

Registered: 03/06/02
Posts: 6249
Loc: Kansas
I may be wrong, but I thought a het was just a normal glider that came for WF parents, could be 1 or 2 WF parents. Of course, if both parents are WF, the chances of getting WF out it the het is better. I think they are called a proven WF het once they do start producing WF babies. But, all my gliders are gray, so what do I know? LOL. Sheila, Judie, help <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
_________________________
Alicia aka Queenduck, Bentley's Nana

We need role models who are going to break the mold ~ Carly Simon

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#28042 - 10/28/04 07:31 AM Re: Breeding 2 WFB hets together? [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


[:"blue"] As I understand it, if the WFB characteristic is controlled by a single recessive gene pair, then the following things should be true.

1. A WFB pair CANNOT produce a het. They can only produce WFB offspring.

2. The offspring of a WFB and a WFB HET will produce either WFBs or WFB hets. There is no way that such a pairing can produce a "normal" homozygous animal other than a WFB.

3. If you have 2 true hets, they will produce according to the laws of genetics and the characteristics of their parents are immaterial.

4. A het is a het is a het is a het......they don't really have strong and weak genes. Either they have the gene or they don't.

Using a simple Prunnet square analysis, the following should be true.

Two WFB parents should produce 100% WFB offspring. A WFB parent and a WFB HET should produce 50% WFBs and 50% WFB HETS. Two WFB HETS should produce 25% WFBs and 75% WFB HETS.

Since the results of glider breedings posted here and elsewhere don't seem to follow the above, it is reasonable to assume that the WFB characteristic IS NOT a simple genetic situation. A more likely scenario is that the WFB characteristic is controlled by a single gene with multiple alleles.(not just two)(I recently read that some rodent color genes have 10 alleles!!) With miltiple genes or multiple alleles involved, the understanding of glider genetics becomes very much more complicated effort and predicting the results of specific pairings becomes difficult, if not impossible, until the results of many generations of breeding become known.

If you have gotten this far, you must be wondering what it all means. Well, CharlieH said it pretty well in a previous post....I don't remember the exact words; but the sense of it was don't go out and buy a couple of hets and expect to immediately start producing exotic glider variations. If it were that simple, everyone would be doing it and we would be flooded with a multitude of the unusually colored creatures and they would be no more costly than the standard gray.

I'm just beginning to learn some of the basics of genetics and heredity.....it is a tremendously complicated subject and I don't pretend to be anything more than a rank amateur!!! That being the case, I like to think about glider breeding in terms of breeding dogs. Look at all of the variety in purebred dogs and then remember that most of these "breeds" have been developed over a period of a hundred years or more. Then consider that people have been breeding gliders "for color" for maybe ten years at the most. The glider reproductive cycle is certainly shorter than that of "bow wow"; but dogs generally have larger litters so there are more offspring to select from for desirable traits. Given that breeding for specific traits is a long, slow, tedious, and somewhat hit or miss process, one might reasonably expect that in about 50 years glider breeders will be producing on a regular basis many of the colors that we find so rare and so enchanting today. [/]

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#28043 - 10/28/04 09:31 AM Re: Breeding 2 WFB hets together? [Re: ]
queenduck Offline
Serious Glideritis

Registered: 03/06/02
Posts: 6249
Loc: Kansas
Now I am really confused. LOL. So what's new?

OK I do have a question though. Randy you said </font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />
A WFB pair CANNOT produce a het. They can only produce WFB offspring.



<hr /></blockquote><font class="post">

what confuses me about this is Chey has a WFB pair, they just had joeys 7 weeks ago, one is normal in color, and one is a WFB. I have seen them and held them. What am I missing and wouldn't the normal g. they produced be a het?

The more I know, they more confused I get. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/nixweiss.gif" alt="" /> Any help would be apprechiated.
_________________________
Alicia aka Queenduck, Bentley's Nana

We need role models who are going to break the mold ~ Carly Simon

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#28044 - 10/28/04 10:05 AM Re: Breeding 2 WFB hets together? [Re: ]
SugarBaby22 Offline
Serious Glideritis

Registered: 07/18/02
Posts: 5697
Loc: Phoenix, AZ
Alicia~*
He said those things SHOULD be true if the WFB characteristic is controlled by a single recessive gene pair. We know that this is not true because it happens all the time. However, if I am correct, it seems that WFBs DO have "stronger" and "weaker" genes than others. I believe that Sheila is breeding for "Super Blondes" who have a strong background of WFBs and are something like 4th generations who should only produce WFB joeys. Sheila please correct me if I'm wrong, I don't know too much about it...

I would think that with 2 WFB parents the joey should be a het, or have a high %age of being one.

<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />
_________________________
Linda

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#28045 - 10/30/04 11:06 AM Re: Breeding 2 WFB hets together? [Re: ]
Sheila Offline
Serious Glideritis

Registered: 02/05/00
Posts: 5363
Loc: Ok
Ok, the only way to know all of this is to breed them over a period of time. Mine have been breeding for two years. I know that when you breed a wfb with a normal, you get a WFB or a normal colored glider. The normal colored glider should be the het because the blonde is dominate being that you only need to one to produce the blonde. This would mean the gene is not recessive. The larger breeders who have produced WFB have said they come out of two normal colored parents. I for one have not done this because when I originally purchased my blondes there were only a few bloodlines to choose from. All the hets available were related to the few blondes that I did have. The only het I ever kept from my stock was the one I sold to Kellie and she was in need of a het badly at the time and he was 5.5 months or 6 months old, so Shadow left us. He was a very pretty light het and his line tended to be that way. There are some hets that are very dark and there are some very light, but there are also light white faced blondes and white faced normals too. I have customers who love both. I would have all my wfb paired up with white faced, but there are two reasons not to. One is I have a bloodline that is uncommon to most and it is from Mary of Glidertree. When people out there are looking for gliders that are blondes or hets that are unrelated, so many of them are related to the Sandman line and the non-related ones are hard to find. I would rather see the lines not being inbred, so that is why I have them paired with normals. Some of the normals I have are special also to me, so I don't want to let them go either. If you put two hets together, you have one in 4 or 25% percent of the babies born be whitefaced blones. WFB Blondes are easy to find now and I personally would not match a het to het up because you may have to wait a whole year to get a blonde glider. The babies(offspring) could be sold, but only as possible hets from this het pair.
_________________________
ToandFro Gliders

http://www.toandfrogliders.com

USDA Licensed breeder for 12 years and counting!

WE SELL THE STEALTH WHEEL

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#28046 - 11/08/04 12:58 PM Re: Breeding 2 WFB hets together? [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


[:"blue"] Well, now I am really puzzled?? Sheila, I hope you can clarify a few things for me, please. [/]

</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />
..... I know that when you breed a wfb with a normal, you get a WFB or a normal colored glider. The normal colored glider should be the het because the blonde is dominate being that you only need to one to produce the blonde......

<hr /></blockquote><font class="post">

[:"blue"] Seems to me that the normal colored offspring would NOT be a het if the gene is dominant as any glider that has the gene would exhibit the characteristic?? In fact, the only way you should get a normal offspring from a pairing would be to have one normal parent and one het parent??

Additionally, it would seem that there is no such thing as a wfb het(as het is traditionally used @ GC.....an animal that carries a gene but does not exhibit the trait) since any glider with the gene would exhibit the characteristic if it is dominant?? [/]

</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />
.....The larger breeders who have produced WFB have said they come out of two normal colored parents .....

<hr /></blockquote><font class="post">

[:"blue"] If the gene is dominant as you have suggested, the above would not seem to be possible??

Another thing that I am curious about is whether the WFB characteristic is controlled by one gene or multiple genes? If I understand correctly the WF characteristic is seen in colors other than just the WFB. What can you tell us about that?? [/]

</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />
..... If you put two hets together, you have one in 4 or 25% percent of the babies born be whitefaced blones.....

<hr /></blockquote><font class="post">

[:"blue"] Seems to me that if you assume a simple one gene model and the assume the gene is dominant, you would get the following:

1 homozygous WFB(color=WFB)
2 heterozygous for WFB(color=WFB)
1 homozygous normal(color=normal)

In other words, three with the WFB coloration and one normal. If it turns out that there are multiple genes controlling the characteristic, the possible resultant gene pairings are much more complicated.

Hope you can help me out with some of this??? Thanks. [/]

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#28047 - 01/16/05 02:35 AM Re: Breeding 2 WFB hets together? [Re: ]
SkyBlueGliders Offline
Glider Slave

Registered: 07/10/03
Posts: 1314
Loc: Northern New Jersey
Just wanted to update this post by saying that today i found out my little Wfb het girl emma has 2 pea sized joeys ip. She is currently 6 months old so she will be a young mom. She is paired with Eli who is a wfb het as well, also a white tip het. Would be interested to see if Emma does have a wfb baby! I'll keep you all posted!..They are due late March im guesstimating!

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