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#285263 - 05/12/07 02:01 AM Gradual Weight Loss
glidrz5 Offline
Serious Glideritis

Registered: 06/13/01
Posts: 7297
Loc: Quincy, IL
Over the last few months my Meeko has been gradually losing weight. In December he was 140 grams & now he's down to 105 as of tonight. At first it was so slight that I hardly noticed but now he is as thin as my Nicky. I had noticed he was "trimming down" & I figured was that he has new neighbors & has spent more time over talking/looking at them. But that wouldn't account for the amount of weight that he's lost.
I know he's eating also. He's always over at the food bowl when I put it in & starts munching. I know Nicky isn't chasing him off because Nicky isn't food agressive. They will sit side by side & munch & even take food from each other without fussing. I did change his diet a few months before I noticed him getting more trim from the Ensure diet to PML. They do eat all of their PML each night & all of their veggies. They have never have been big fruit eaters, so it's not unusual for them to not eat their fruit.
He also is active and runs on his wheel & climbs all over his cage. He enjoys escaping from the tent....not sure how he manages, so I tend to take him & Nicky into my room for playtime. He climbs all over everything & plays. He's definately not lethargic at all.
He looks well. His fur is shiney & clean. He has bright eyes & his ears are up. His nose color is good.
If it wasn't for the weight loss I wouldn't be concerned about him.
The only other change in the last few months has been in his attitude toward me. He has finally become more relaxed & affectionate towards me & more willing to jump to me & let me pet him.
So, I'm not sure if he has become less food dependant because he's clamer....if he's more distracted.....if the change in diet has made the difference....if he's running on his wheel more or if something is really wrong.
I am going to take him into the vets & talk to Dr Kaiser about what might be going on with him, but if anyone has any ideas on what might be going on I'd apprecate hearing them so I can pass them on to Dr Kaiser.



Edited by glidrz5 (05/12/07 02:05 AM)
_________________________
Chris
Illusion, Malcom, Isabell, Annabelle, Zach, Isis, Aly & Indy
AND Miss Emmy & Miss Chloe kitties

:rbridge: My Angels: You are always in my heart.

You've flown to the rainbow
and wait there for me
Someday I will join you
together to be



Top
#285266 - 05/12/07 02:35 AM Re: Gradual Weight Loss [Re: glidrz5]
silverwolf Offline
Glider Slave

Registered: 06/15/05
Posts: 1732
Loc: Utah
I agree a vet check is in order. But there are a couple of things that it could be. My Ariel lost alot of weight she went from 140g down to about 85g last vet visit. But she was perfectly healthy. This is what he suggested. It could be that he is being more active than usual. 140g is slightly large for a glider. So he started losing a little weight and feeling better became more active therefore losing more weight. This is what my Ariel did now she has gained some back over the last few months but is still not as big as she was. I also changed diets to get her to gain weight back. This could also be a reason for the loss changing diets can be bad so pick a good one and stick with it. Also if he is un neutered it could be that he wants to mate she doesn't so he runs in his wheel to work off the frustration. My male does this alot lol because my female is a prude and he gets really frustrated.

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#285268 - 05/12/07 02:40 AM Re: Gradual Weight Loss [Re: silverwolf]
Xfilefan Offline
Serious Glideritis

Registered: 02/22/03
Posts: 8899
Loc: Jacksonville, FL
Chris, you and I have talked on the phone, and in PM. Worst case scenario would be cancer (but look at Lord Darcy-the odds CAN be beaten!). Blood test would be first, as if he gets much lighter they won't be able to draw enough for a panel. Trust me. He's older, so that is a possibility, though one I didn't want to say out loud when you first told me-it did cross my mind then.

Fecals, though I don't know where he would have picked up a parasite-that could be another. You could try 2 weeks of Flagyl to see...

Also, put him back on the Ensure (offer him all he wants-Don't limit him) and see if he can gain some weight. You know Nicky, as his cagemate, will gain too, but that's okay-he's not fat.

And I mean it...I have my cell, so if you need to CALL ME.
hug2 hug2

Silverwolf-yes, Meeko is long since neutered, I do believe.


Edited by Xfilefan (05/12/07 02:41 AM)
_________________________
Jen/Colin :bb: Commander Riker 12 16 02-10 04 12 you will be FOREVER missed :wfb: Sinbad, :wfb: Gabby, :grey: Baby, and :grey: Alley

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#285269 - 05/12/07 02:49 AM Re: Gradual Weight Loss [Re: Xfilefan]
glidrz5 Offline
Serious Glideritis

Registered: 06/13/01
Posts: 7297
Loc: Quincy, IL
Yes Meeko is neutered. He has been since he's been @ 9 months old (when I got him). That was one of the first things I had done, before I put him in with Nicky.

Jen, you know I don't want to think of Cancer, but it has crossed my mind as well, so it's something I definately will be asking about. I'll also talk to Dr Kaiser about drawing blood for a work up. I know he wasn't comfortable with doing it with Syddie so I'm not sure what his reaction will be. Can you PM your vets number so I can take it with me? Talking to a vet who has drawn suggie blood might make him more willing to take that step if need be.
I'll go ahead & give Nicky & Meeko some Ensure along with their dinner. They do have PML but some extra "yummies" won't hurt them.
_________________________
Chris
Illusion, Malcom, Isabell, Annabelle, Zach, Isis, Aly & Indy
AND Miss Emmy & Miss Chloe kitties

:rbridge: My Angels: You are always in my heart.

You've flown to the rainbow
and wait there for me
Someday I will join you
together to be



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#285273 - 05/12/07 03:47 AM Re: Gradual Weight Loss [Re: glidrz5]
Xfilefan Offline
Serious Glideritis

Registered: 02/22/03
Posts: 8899
Loc: Jacksonville, FL
This is the one who did the draw from Chronos:

Douglas W Folland, DVM 86 North 70 West Centerville, UT 84014 (801) 298-2014

I'll PM it as well, so it's easy for you to find.
_________________________
Jen/Colin :bb: Commander Riker 12 16 02-10 04 12 you will be FOREVER missed :wfb: Sinbad, :wfb: Gabby, :grey: Baby, and :grey: Alley

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#285987 - 05/13/07 08:21 AM Re: Gradual Weight Loss [Re: Xfilefan]
glidrz5 Offline
Serious Glideritis

Registered: 06/13/01
Posts: 7297
Loc: Quincy, IL
Meeko has a vet apt for 8:45 on Monday. If anyone can think of anything else to mention to my vet, please let me know.
_________________________
Chris
Illusion, Malcom, Isabell, Annabelle, Zach, Isis, Aly & Indy
AND Miss Emmy & Miss Chloe kitties

:rbridge: My Angels: You are always in my heart.

You've flown to the rainbow
and wait there for me
Someday I will join you
together to be



Top
#285992 - 05/13/07 08:42 AM Re: Gradual Weight Loss [Re: glidrz5]
Xfilefan Offline
Serious Glideritis

Registered: 02/22/03
Posts: 8899
Loc: Jacksonville, FL
AHA! I remembered what ocurred to me yesterday, then I forgot (<-hits self in head). Hyperthyroidism. An overactive thyroid could cause a gradual weight loss. I don't know what to look for in the blood or urine for that, but the vet should.

I know there can be other things, I can't remember if diabetes onset could do this, but markers in the urine include ketones and sugar, and excessive thirst is one of the noticeable symptoms. Is he drinking more than usual at all, if you've noticed?
_________________________
Jen/Colin :bb: Commander Riker 12 16 02-10 04 12 you will be FOREVER missed :wfb: Sinbad, :wfb: Gabby, :grey: Baby, and :grey: Alley

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#285995 - 05/13/07 08:55 AM Re: Gradual Weight Loss [Re: Xfilefan]
glidrz5 Offline
Serious Glideritis

Registered: 06/13/01
Posts: 7297
Loc: Quincy, IL
I haven't noticed him drinking more than normal. As far as thyroid, that should have occured to me....I have low thyroid production LOL...it took a blood test to discover it.
_________________________
Chris
Illusion, Malcom, Isabell, Annabelle, Zach, Isis, Aly & Indy
AND Miss Emmy & Miss Chloe kitties

:rbridge: My Angels: You are always in my heart.

You've flown to the rainbow
and wait there for me
Someday I will join you
together to be



Top
#285997 - 05/13/07 09:01 AM Re: Gradual Weight Loss [Re: glidrz5]
Xfilefan Offline
Serious Glideritis

Registered: 02/22/03
Posts: 8899
Loc: Jacksonville, FL
That one was probably unlikely-diabetes-but thought I'd throw it out there-it's easy to test for. I'll see if I can come up with anything else before tomorrow...so far that's all I can think of though.
_________________________
Jen/Colin :bb: Commander Riker 12 16 02-10 04 12 you will be FOREVER missed :wfb: Sinbad, :wfb: Gabby, :grey: Baby, and :grey: Alley

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#286721 - 05/14/07 10:38 AM Re: Gradual Weight Loss [Re: Xfilefan]
glidrz5 Offline
Serious Glideritis

Registered: 06/13/01
Posts: 7297
Loc: Quincy, IL
cry need_hug
Meeko is at the vets office. Dr Kaiser was concerned about the amount of weight that he'd lost. He kept him so they could sedate him & draw blood, get a urine sample & take an X-Ray. Right now I'm about to chew nails.
I've got Nicky in my shirt for comfort. He's not really a bra baby, but he does go into my bra now & I felt that he would want some comfort also since Meeko wasn't there to share his pouch.
need_hug
_________________________
Chris
Illusion, Malcom, Isabell, Annabelle, Zach, Isis, Aly & Indy
AND Miss Emmy & Miss Chloe kitties

:rbridge: My Angels: You are always in my heart.

You've flown to the rainbow
and wait there for me
Someday I will join you
together to be



Top
#286726 - 05/14/07 10:51 AM Re: Gradual Weight Loss [Re: glidrz5]
Msdoolittle Offline
Glider Lover

Registered: 10/15/06
Posts: 582
Loc: Lake Worth, FL
I hope Meeko is ok and you can bring him home soon! Lots of hugs!!!
_________________________
~Janet~
Mom to 2 daughters (Laura & Kayla)
4 suggies (Scooter & Snickers, Coral,& Portia)
3 birds (Prince,Lucy,Sidney)
1 dog (Sammy)


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#286741 - 05/14/07 11:13 AM Re: Gradual Weight Loss [Re: Msdoolittle]
TracieB Offline
Glider Addict

Registered: 08/07/06
Posts: 4338
Loc: Lenexa, KS
hug2 hug2 I hope all goes well at the vet and that Meeko is okay. Good thoughts and prayers going out for you both. hug2 hug2
_________________________
Tracie
1 wonderful husband - Chris
1 goofy Yorkie - Dexter
2 naughty kitties - Chloe & Alek

Waiting at the Rainbow Bridge:
1 spoiled Yorkie, Myles - April 5, 1993-June 5, 2007
1 sweet :wfb: Xavier - August 5, 2007-May 20, 2010
2 sweet :grey: :grey: Nara & Alkina - February, 2006-November, 2011





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#286760 - 05/14/07 11:39 AM Re: Gradual Weight Loss [Re: TracieB]
sugarglidersuz Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 08/28/04
Posts: 14788
Loc: Cleveland, Ohio
Chris, as you know, I was gone for the weekend, so this is the first I've seen this thread. I really don't have anything to add to what Jen said, but I wanted to let you know that I'm praying for you & Meeko...
hug2 hug2 hug2
_________________________
Suz Enyedy
:bb: Carina & Coobah
Allira & Gizmo :grey:
:grey: Picasso, Trinity Joy & Luna
:rbridge: DaisyMae; Darwin; Mareki; Mambo; Pika; Cricky; Reggie & Bobo, Pepe & Bittah


Suz' Sugar Gliders

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#286761 - 05/14/07 11:39 AM Re: Gradual Weight Loss [Re: glidrz5]
Anonymous
Unregistered


hug2 hug2 hug2 hug2 hug2

We are all here with you.... Please keep us updated...

Good Luck

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#287289 - 05/14/07 10:18 PM Re: Gradual Weight Loss [Re: ]
glidrz5 Offline
Serious Glideritis

Registered: 06/13/01
Posts: 7297
Loc: Quincy, IL
Meeko is home again & is his usual crabby self.....maybe a bit more crabby but who can blame him. He was anestetized & had blood drawn & an X-Ray taken. Dr Kaiser didn't get as much blood as he'd hoped for but got enough for some tests. We didn't get a urinalysis done as Meeko refused to cooperate there. We should have the results back by Friday on him.
_________________________
Chris
Illusion, Malcom, Isabell, Annabelle, Zach, Isis, Aly & Indy
AND Miss Emmy & Miss Chloe kitties

:rbridge: My Angels: You are always in my heart.

You've flown to the rainbow
and wait there for me
Someday I will join you
together to be



Top
#287458 - 05/15/07 06:33 AM Re: Gradual Weight Loss [Re: glidrz5]
sugarglidersuz Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 08/28/04
Posts: 14788
Loc: Cleveland, Ohio
Thanks for the update, Chris. Still keeping ya'll in my prayers hug2
_________________________
Suz Enyedy
:bb: Carina & Coobah
Allira & Gizmo :grey:
:grey: Picasso, Trinity Joy & Luna
:rbridge: DaisyMae; Darwin; Mareki; Mambo; Pika; Cricky; Reggie & Bobo, Pepe & Bittah


Suz' Sugar Gliders

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#292885 - 05/21/07 12:02 PM Re: Gradual Weight Loss [Re: sugarglidersuz]
glidrz5 Offline
Serious Glideritis

Registered: 06/13/01
Posts: 7297
Loc: Quincy, IL
Sorry it's taken me so long to update this. I've been out of town & haven't had access to a computer for the majority of the weekend. Anyway, I spoke to Dr Kaiser on Friday & he had the blood results back. Meeko has a slightly elivated white cound (I do need to find out what slightly is) and that Meeko is anemic! We need to tweek his diet to get him more iron/protein into it and put him on an antibiotic. In two weeks he will go back for follow up blood work.
It's hard being out of town when I learned this, because on the phone I wasn't able to think fast enough to ask the many many questions that popped into my head later & I didn't have any meds with me to start him on......I won't be back "home" until next weekend. However I'm staying with Teresa (Dancing), so she can get me antibiotics from her vet for my boy to use until we are home again and is helping me with his dietary issues.
Please, if anyone has any experience with anemic gliders or suggestions on a diet that will help with this let me know.
On a good note, Meeko is looking good & is very active. His "vacation" hasn't seemed to have stressed him at all! He's eating well, looks great is very active & has remained curious....He WASN'T happy tho when Mom had to stop him from exploring the new room he was in so she could stick icky meds down his throat & gave me a good nip.


Edited by glidrz5 (05/21/07 12:04 PM)
_________________________
Chris
Illusion, Malcom, Isabell, Annabelle, Zach, Isis, Aly & Indy
AND Miss Emmy & Miss Chloe kitties

:rbridge: My Angels: You are always in my heart.

You've flown to the rainbow
and wait there for me
Someday I will join you
together to be



Top
#297849 - 05/25/07 06:01 PM Re: Gradual Weight Loss [Re: glidrz5]
Xfilefan Offline
Serious Glideritis

Registered: 02/22/03
Posts: 8899
Loc: Jacksonville, FL
Chris, I haven't been trying to ignore you, just been a really busy week-interviewed for a new job today, and still need a nap before work tonight.

I'd need to know, before offering much, does the vet have any idea WHY he's anemic? And how low is it? Slightly? Severe? You can add iron and B vitamins to his diet, but it could still get worse over time depending on what's causing it. I can offer dietary advice there, but not much more without knowing what's causing it. Depending on how anemic, you may not want to modify very much, because it will accumulate over time, and Iron is a heavy metal and has the potential to be toxic if there's too much. worried dunno
_________________________
Jen/Colin :bb: Commander Riker 12 16 02-10 04 12 you will be FOREVER missed :wfb: Sinbad, :wfb: Gabby, :grey: Baby, and :grey: Alley

Top
#298113 - 05/26/07 01:00 AM Re: Gradual Weight Loss [Re: Xfilefan]
glidrz5 Offline
Serious Glideritis

Registered: 06/13/01
Posts: 7297
Loc: Quincy, IL
I'm taking Meeko back into the vets tomorrow morning. He lost another 6 grams this last week frown I'll try to get more information about what's going on then & update you.
_________________________
Chris
Illusion, Malcom, Isabell, Annabelle, Zach, Isis, Aly & Indy
AND Miss Emmy & Miss Chloe kitties

:rbridge: My Angels: You are always in my heart.

You've flown to the rainbow
and wait there for me
Someday I will join you
together to be



Top
#298189 - 05/26/07 05:20 AM Re: Gradual Weight Loss [Re: glidrz5]
Xfilefan Offline
Serious Glideritis

Registered: 02/22/03
Posts: 8899
Loc: Jacksonville, FL
Chris...PM we discussed on the phone (questions for vet) is in your inbox. Here's a copy so we can keep the continuity of your thread, and Meeko's progress, going:

Do we know WHY he is anemic?

What is degree of anemia?

Double check for parasites (including roundworm, hookworm, as household has felines, and glider may have been where cats have walked)-suggest possible treat with Flagyl 2 weeks just in case-since may not show on testing if eggs not shedding, then retest/see if improvement. Both fecal float and direct smear. Was done last time? Stains?

What all was done with bloodwork? How much of panel? Results?

If second draw needed-Dr. Folland or Dr. Harris can advise for draw via Vena Cava (sp?) in chest for full panel under anesthesia. If sought let him/her know glider has dropped to just over 100 grams in weight. If he's not in, Dr. Harris IS in Saturday Mornings:

Dr. Laurel Harris
2675 Parley's Way
Salt Lake City, UT 84109
(801) 485-4736

Urinalysis, via voluntary or direct draw via syringe from bladder-are white cells showing up there as well? What amounts? Any proteins, sugars, ketones, high or low PH, etc?

Possibilities for source of anemia?

Is it possible to do Xray or Ultrasound?

I don't believe this to be aflatoxins (since store bought mealworms would be the only possible source), but if they can check without being too invasive, considering his low weight/state of health, it's worth ruling out.

I have to wait around Park City for the Post Office to open anyway, so I'll be up until at least 11 am your time-very likely later. Call me when he's done (or even during-it wouldn't be the first time I've talked to someone's vet-just make sure they know that I'm not one) if you think it'll be beneficial or helpful-I don't mind.

I know you're worried about your little guy-so am I. What's going on isn't normal, and beyond a bit of extra activity, and hopefully we'll be able to track down a cause. I can ask my vet questions, but without the answers to the above, they won't be able to help any more than I can. Hopefully the stress of the trip didn't add to whatever it is. You know you and your guys are never far from my thoughts--and always in my prayers. Tons and tons of hugs to you hug2 hug2 hug2

If anyone else can come up with questions I haven't put down, PLEASE post. We'd like to cover all possible bases, and find out what's wrong with the little guy, in order to help him.


Edited by Xfilefan (05/26/07 05:25 AM)
_________________________
Jen/Colin :bb: Commander Riker 12 16 02-10 04 12 you will be FOREVER missed :wfb: Sinbad, :wfb: Gabby, :grey: Baby, and :grey: Alley

Top
#298218 - 05/26/07 08:31 AM Re: Gradual Weight Loss [Re: Xfilefan]
glidrz5 Offline
Serious Glideritis

Registered: 06/13/01
Posts: 7297
Loc: Quincy, IL
I'll try to answer the questions after we get back from the vets office. I know they tried to draw urine last time, but Meeko was dry. They also did take an X-Ray which I'll ask Dr Kaiser to show to me.
As of this morning. Meeko had gained back 2 of the grams he lost, bringing him up to 104.
_________________________
Chris
Illusion, Malcom, Isabell, Annabelle, Zach, Isis, Aly & Indy
AND Miss Emmy & Miss Chloe kitties

:rbridge: My Angels: You are always in my heart.

You've flown to the rainbow
and wait there for me
Someday I will join you
together to be



Top
#298275 - 05/26/07 10:37 AM Re: Gradual Weight Loss [Re: glidrz5]
glidrz5 Offline
Serious Glideritis

Registered: 06/13/01
Posts: 7297
Loc: Quincy, IL
Just got back from the vets office with Meeko. He gave him some sub-Q fluids just in case he had dehydrated on the trip & I am to continue with the pedialite. He also checked Meeko's teeth & said that they looked fine & there is no problem there, but to use my rinse on them as a preventative measure. In addition, we are going to start him on flagyl just in case this is a parasite issue.

Meeko will go back in next Wednesday for another blood draw so they can run a second panal to check to see if the meds are working and to see if there is any change. They will also run a more complete panal since the previous one was bare bones because they were not able to get enough blood from him. They will also run a fecal & uranalysis (if Meeko will cooperate with me on that)

I also got some more information on the test that were run on him:

Uranalysis: unable to run
X-Ray: Got a great shot & everything is normal
Blood Panal:
* White Cell count is 15000. This indicates some kind of infection. Dr Kaiser needs to consult to find out what a Suggies normal count is.
* Red Blood cell estimate is 33%
* Protien is 7.4
* White/red blood cell estimate:
> 22% nutrifils
> 58% lymphocytes
> 17% monocytes
> 3% eosinophils


_________________________
Chris
Illusion, Malcom, Isabell, Annabelle, Zach, Isis, Aly & Indy
AND Miss Emmy & Miss Chloe kitties

:rbridge: My Angels: You are always in my heart.

You've flown to the rainbow
and wait there for me
Someday I will join you
together to be



Top
#298951 - 05/27/07 11:12 AM Re: Gradual Weight Loss [Re: glidrz5]
Xfilefan Offline
Serious Glideritis

Registered: 02/22/03
Posts: 8899
Loc: Jacksonville, FL
Chris...when is your next appointment? Been studying, and have some info it'll take me a while to type-so need to know when my deadline is (there's a lot of info, and it needs converted into plain english, lol). The white blood cell count is making sense to me now, with the anemia, which is a little more complex than just severity.

Anyway, I picked up an extra shift at work, so need to sleep today, but I want to plan when to get this up for you. Let me know. hug2
_________________________
Jen/Colin :bb: Commander Riker 12 16 02-10 04 12 you will be FOREVER missed :wfb: Sinbad, :wfb: Gabby, :grey: Baby, and :grey: Alley

Top
#299200 - 05/27/07 06:25 PM Re: Gradual Weight Loss [Re: Xfilefan]
glidrz5 Offline
Serious Glideritis

Registered: 06/13/01
Posts: 7297
Loc: Quincy, IL
Thanks Jen, I'd appreciate having things put into perspective for me. The numbers & trying to figure out what they mean makes my head spin. It's definately not my forte'. As for his next vet apt, Meeko goes back in Wednesday morning. I'm hoping to get his weight back up to something close to what he was before. He's getting there, but it's taking time. As of this morning, he was up to 105 grams.
_________________________
Chris
Illusion, Malcom, Isabell, Annabelle, Zach, Isis, Aly & Indy
AND Miss Emmy & Miss Chloe kitties

:rbridge: My Angels: You are always in my heart.

You've flown to the rainbow
and wait there for me
Someday I will join you
together to be



Top
#300905 - 05/29/07 08:09 PM Re: Gradual Weight Loss [Re: glidrz5]
glidrz5 Offline
Serious Glideritis

Registered: 06/13/01
Posts: 7297
Loc: Quincy, IL
Meeko's vet appointment has been postponed until next week. Dr Kaiser is ill & won't be in and the other vet in the office isn't comfortable with gliders.
Hopefully I'll be able to get his weight up some more by then. For now tho, he's holding at 105.
_________________________
Chris
Illusion, Malcom, Isabell, Annabelle, Zach, Isis, Aly & Indy
AND Miss Emmy & Miss Chloe kitties

:rbridge: My Angels: You are always in my heart.

You've flown to the rainbow
and wait there for me
Someday I will join you
together to be



Top
#300976 - 05/29/07 09:38 PM Re: Gradual Weight Loss [Re: glidrz5]
Xfilefan Offline
Serious Glideritis

Registered: 02/22/03
Posts: 8899
Loc: Jacksonville, FL
That will give you some time to assimilate the amount of information I'm going to throw at you, lol. I'm going to give you a lot, and it's up to you to make your vet do it, or find one that will, and I'll explain the reasons as well. It's probably going to take at least an hour (probably longer) to type it all, and put the links in-so be patient-it'll be up by morning.

The things I'm working from are the following:
What we know:
1. Unexplained weight loss
2. High White Blood Cell count
3. Anemia

What we don't:
1. Why is he anemic?
2. Where is the infection?
3. Why is he losing weight, but eating?

I'm also going to explain what the items on the blood panel are, why they are needed, and what they're looking for, along with normal values, and what the cells are in the simple panel you've already had done, and what they do. Also why they NEED a urinalysis and fecal sample, and what they show.

Gotta feed kids, medicate and feed gliders, but I'll be back-spent the afternoon looking up references and organizing information-it's still going to take awhile to get it all up in understandable english.

For now, here's the info on normal blood values for gliders from the Merck veterinary manual (the u's are a measurement symbol I can't reproduce on my keyboard-your vet will know):

Hematology

Hemoglobin 13-15 g/dL
Red blood cells 5.1-7.2 106/uL
Mean corpuscular Hgb concentration 30-33 g/dL
Mean corpuscular Hgb 18.2-20.6 pg
White blood cells (WBC) 5.0-12.2 103/uL
Neutrophils (NEUT)1.5-3.0 103/uL
Lymphocytes (LYMPH) 2.8-9.2 103/uL
Monocytes (MONO) 0.06-0.2 103/uL
Eosinophils (EOS) 0.02-0.14 103/L
Basophils (BOS) 0
Plasma proteins (TP) 5.6-6.9 g/dL
Albumin (ALB) 3.0-3.5 g/dL
Globulin (GLOB) 2.2-3.6 g/dL

Biochemistry

ALT 50-106 U/L
AST 46-179 U/L
Calcium (Ca) 6.9-8.4 mg/dL
CPK 210-589 U/L
Creatinine (CREA) 0.2-0.5 mg/dL
Glucose (GLU) 130-183 mg/dL
Phosphorus (PHOS) 3.8-4.4 mg/dL
Potassium 3.3-5.9 mEq/L
Sodium (Na) 135-145 mEq/L
Urea 18-24 mg/dL

Chronos had more than this tested, and some listed not run, and I'll include those-but can't find normal values for a glider for them. I will put whether my vet felt they were within normal limits or not)


Edited by Xfilefan (05/29/07 09:39 PM)
_________________________
Jen/Colin :bb: Commander Riker 12 16 02-10 04 12 you will be FOREVER missed :wfb: Sinbad, :wfb: Gabby, :grey: Baby, and :grey: Alley

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#301003 - 05/29/07 10:01 PM Re: Gradual Weight Loss [Re: Xfilefan]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Hmm. Yeah, do we have more info on what are the normal limits? Or is there some way to transfer the percentages that you have from Meeko's report into the mg/dL (conversions, fun!)

That is really strange. I do wonder if increasing a dietary supplement could help with the anemia, although that's not really addressing the underlying cause.

Bloodwork can be complicated like that; oftentimes it tells you SOMETHING is wrong but it's hard to determine WHAT.

Best of luck to you Chris, and keep us posted!

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#301170 - 05/30/07 03:29 AM Re: Gradual Weight Loss [Re: ]
Xfilefan Offline
Serious Glideritis

Registered: 02/22/03
Posts: 8899
Loc: Jacksonville, FL
Those are all that the current Merck Veterinary manual provide specific to Sugar Gliders at this time. We can hope future issues have a more thorough table.

First, here are all the values, what they are, and hopefully sort of what they do. There may be more than what I can include, since I haven't gone to medical school, so this is based on resources I have access to.

Complete Blood Count: Looks for the numbers of red and white blood cells per cubic millimeter of blood. It is one of the most routinely done tests in a clinical lab, and one of the most valuable screening and diagnostic techniques. They may also do a Differential Count, where each type of white cell can be represented as percentage of all (the total number) of white cells observed (there are 5 kinds of white cells with differing functions). There are also a number of red cells, but as they're normally not separated out I'll just give the basics. Most automatic counters also determine hemoglobin or hematocrit and include this number in the complete blood count. Can also look at protein content (T.P. - total protein) So far this is Meeko's only diagnostic test done.

Red Blood Cells: RBC (erythrocyte) It makes up the most of blood cell volume. It's primary purpose is to transport oxygen through the body. They originate (or a 'born') in the marrow of the long bones, normally lives for 110 to 120 days before being removed from the bloodstream and replaced by the body. New erythrocytes are produced at a rate of slightly more than 1% a day, so a constant level is usually maintained.

Acute blood loss, hemolytic anemia, or chronic oxygen deprivation can cause red cell production to increase greatly.

White Blood Cells WBC (leukocyte)
These function as phagocytes (a cell that is able to surround, engulf, and digest microorganisms and cellular debris) of bacteria, fungi, and viruses, detoxifiers of toxic proteins that may result from allergic reactions and cellular injury, and immune system cells.
1. lymphocytes-normally account for 25% (IN HUMANS) of the total white blood cell count, but increase in number in response to infection. There are two kinds-B and T cells, that interact with each other to fight infection.

2. monocytes-this is a direct quote, since I'm not sure what exactly they do: "a large, mononuclear leukocyte...with an ovoid or kidney shaped nucleus, containing chromatin material with a lacy pattern and abundant grey-blue cytoplasm filled with fine, reddish and azurophillic granules." --I need to look into this one some more.

3. neutrophils-are the circulating white blood cells essential for phagocytosis (see phagocytes under leukocytes) and proteolysis (a process by which water added to the peptide bonds of proteins-think the "skin" on a bacteria-breaks down the protein molecule into simpler substances. Numerous enzymes may catalyze (speed up)the process. The action of mineral acids and heat may also trigger this response--I'm not positive, but heat might be an example of what a fever does) by which bacteria, cellular debris, and solid particles are removed and destroyed.

4. basophils-represent 1% or less of the total white blood cell count. This number increases in myeloproliferative diseases (myelo is a prefix meaning "spinal cord or bone marrow". Proliferate meanse to grow by multiplication of cells, parts, or organisms. Proliferattion is the reproduction or multiplication of similar forms, the term is usually applied to increases of cells or cysts. A myleoproliferative disorder is a group of conditions (illness) characterized by proliferation of myleoid tissue (of the spinal cord or bone marrow)-you can look these up but the conditions listed are: such as agnogenic myelofibrosis, myeloid metaplasia, or chronic myelogenous leukemia) and decreases in severe allergic reactions. An increase in number is seen during the healing phase of inflammation.

5. eosinophil-normally constitute 1%-3% of the white blood cells of the body. They increase in number with allergy and some parasitic conditions, and decrease with steroid administration.

The Differential White Blood Cell Count is an examination and numbering of the distribution (types and numbers) of leukocytes (white blood cells) in a stained blood smear (slide under a microscope or by machine). The different kinds of white blood cells are counted and reported as percentages of the total number of cells looked at. Differential white blood cell counts provide more specific information related to infections and diseases.

Commonly used to test for anemia, infection, inflammation, and the healthiness of blood cells. Here are some links that helps to explain the CBC (Complete Blood Count)

http://www.antechdiagnostics.com/petOwners/wellnessExams/testGuide.htm

http://www.ctdslab.co.uk/profilesandscreens.html

I will refer to these links (easily accessible to everyone) or one of a few others, with the other panel explanations as well. Next post is the Chemistry Tests (all those abbreviations no one understands very well, or knows what they are) to try and clarify what is being looked for, how they can refine the results of the above CBC test further to help more specifically pinpoint an illness and where it might be in the body.

To end this post (and keep this in manageable chunks) I'll pull the "normal" values from Merck, and put them alongside Meeko's results:

White Cell count is 15000. This indicates some kind of infection. Dr Kaiser needs to consult to find out what a Suggies normal count is.

Meeko's Numbers:
* Red Blood cell estimate is 33%
* Protien is 7.4
* White/red blood cell estimate:
> 22% nutrifils
> 58% lymphocytes
> 17% monocytes
> 3% eosinophils

Normal amounts from Merck & percents I have from Allied health, above, where availble, then Chronos' and what the vet said was normal, and what was elevated-I'm going to need to study some more to get any more specific. The vet should be able to compare.

Merck (Sugar Glider normal values)
Red blood cells 5.1-7.2 106/uL
White blood cells (WBC) 5.0-12.2 103/uL
Neutrophils (NEUT)1.5-3.0 103/uL
Lymphocytes (LYMPH) 2.8-9.2 103/uL
Monocytes (MONO) 0.06-0.2 103/uL
Eosinophils (EOS) 0.02-0.14 103/L
Basophils (BOS) 0
Plasma proteins (TP) 5.6-6.9 g/dL

Chronos: had elevated white cells, and elevated lymphocyte counts in his CBC, with everything else-according to the vet-within normal range.

WP 14,960
PCV (packed cell volume) 52%
Neutrophils 26%
Lymphocytes 60%
Monocytes 11%
Eosinophils 2%
Basophils 1%
Total Protein 6.5g/dL

It looks like Meeko's proteins might be a little high as well-but I don't know what significance that may have.


Edited by Xfilefan (05/30/07 03:32 AM)
Edit Reason: link
_________________________
Jen/Colin :bb: Commander Riker 12 16 02-10 04 12 you will be FOREVER missed :wfb: Sinbad, :wfb: Gabby, :grey: Baby, and :grey: Alley

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#301173 - 05/30/07 04:15 AM Re: Gradual Weight Loss [Re: Xfilefan]
Xfilefan Offline
Serious Glideritis

Registered: 02/22/03
Posts: 8899
Loc: Jacksonville, FL
Okay, my reply just glitched, and scrapped over an hour's work, so I'll retype it all on a Word document, copy and paste, tomorrow. frown Glad there's not a rush for this before the AM.
_________________________
Jen/Colin :bb: Commander Riker 12 16 02-10 04 12 you will be FOREVER missed :wfb: Sinbad, :wfb: Gabby, :grey: Baby, and :grey: Alley

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#301186 - 05/30/07 06:20 AM Re: Gradual Weight Loss [Re: Xfilefan]
SugarBlossoms Offline
Serious Glideritis

Registered: 02/23/06
Posts: 5830
Loc: USA
We had the exact type of problem with one of our rescues a few months ago. Turned out she had roundworms. She was eating everything and playing but losing weight. Doc explained the roundworms were taking the nutrition out of her body. (lowering her immune system and getting infection) Thing is, she acted normal cept for losing the weight, then she got kinda runny poo. Not diarreah, but icky.

She was on meds that Peggy's doc told the vet to give her for 3 days then again in 3 weeks for 3 days. It cleared it all up.

Praying your baby is okay. smile


Edited by SugarBlossoms (05/30/07 06:25 AM)
Edit Reason: add info
_________________________
Keeper of Handprints on my Heart, You left your Footprints on my soul.
My precious loves that left to quickly, Peanut, Katie
Isabella, Kiwi, Bonnie and Monroe.

Spread your wings and glide free of pain,
Until the day I see you again.

God speed my precious angels. I love you. Mama.

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