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#28968 - 11/07/04 06:36 PM new user. Mutilation issue
Anonymous
Unregistered


Hi. I am new here. I found this site while searching for information regarding my babies recent trouble. I have a glider who has been self mutilating and I am at wits end. Allow me to give you the entire details.
About mid August, my single glider (age 4) got his right hind foot wrapped in a string in his pouch cutting off his circulation. When I was able to remove him, he licked this foot raw. I immediately took him to a local vet. This vet gave me antibiotics and told me to move Staples (my glider) to a box where his raw foot would not be rubbed and bathe him twice a day to prevent infection. To make a long story short, I housed Staples in a large tupperware box and four weeks of baths and antibiotics healed all but one toe which had suffered prolonged loss of circulation. The one toe is still hanging on, but is bent over and dead. The other toes are deformed but functional.
The mutilation did not begin until after the right foot was nearly healed. Staples mutilation involves his left foot and his tail. The final inch and a half of his tail is gone and he no longer bothers it, however he has now bitten off all of his toes on his left foot. Examination of this foot shows exposed bone. I took him to a new vet when the old vet could say no more that "bathe him more". The new vet told me to discontinue the baths and instead to use a spray bottle to wash his foot off. She also advised me to put a triple antibiotic ointment with pain reliever on it, she continued his antibiotics and put him on a steroid in the hopes that this might be a neurological problem. However, nothing has stopped my baby from biting himself.
I finally moved him back into his home cage hoping that the isolation factor might be the cause of his stress. And while "the noise" as I have heard it called is less, it has not gone away. He no longer seems to be causing further injury, but his little foot around the injury is scabbed. I have an appointment to take him for amputation and repair on Tuesday, but I have also read that this could be caused by other problems.
While this final vet seems to be knowledgeable about gliders, I need to know how to talk to him about doing more than treating the injury. I have read a lot about penal mutilation, but Staples is not doing this. He is only attacking his foot. What tests should I suggest to my vet to get done to get at the root of this problem.

Thanks
Staples Mommy

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#28969 - 11/07/04 06:52 PM Re: new user. Mutilation issue [Re: ]
Xfilefan Offline
Serious Glideritis

Registered: 02/22/03
Posts: 8899
Loc: Jacksonville, FL
A glider when in pain/discomfort-will chew in an attempt to alleviate it, not realizing they are making it worse, thus more pain, more chewing/more pain, etc. First you need to get your little one into an e-collar so he cannot cause more damage while working on underlying causes. I am going to post the link to directions on how to make an ecollar.

If you havent had a urinalysis/fecal float & smear done, do that. Or do them again-sometimes things don't show up at first. If one of his toes is dead, it needs to be removed, and antibiotic treatment/pain meds given (recommend low-dose valium suspension for pain-it also relieves anxiety, which is helpful in a mutilator). If a tissue sample can be obtained from the damaged area, I would ask for that also to see what might be in there causing a problem. To have a dead limb could be causing a spreading infection in his system-eventually could go systemic and kill him (so can the mutilating if not stopped with a collar).

It may take several attempts to get the collar so it will stay on, but not cut off his air, and he will fight it. It needs to be very snug. If his nose starts turning blue (lack of air) take it off and try again.

A blood test would also be good IF your guy is strong enough for it and IF the vet can get enough to test. Hold on a minute and let me find the link for you.
_________________________
Jen/Colin :bb: Commander Riker 12 16 02-10 04 12 you will be FOREVER missed :wfb: Sinbad, :wfb: Gabby, :grey: Baby, and :grey: Alley

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#28970 - 11/07/04 07:01 PM Re: new user. Mutilation issue [Re: ]
Xfilefan Offline
Serious Glideritis

Registered: 02/22/03
Posts: 8899
Loc: Jacksonville, FL
Here is the link to the E-collar directions:

E-Collar

This is the Glider Health Website, which has info about other mutilators:

Glider Health Website

And here is the link to the InfoTree (also SM related)-

Info-Tree

The most important thing to do first is get him in a collar to stop the damage. Then go from there. There is contact info for help on the Glider Health website (phone numbers) if you need them. Please keep us updated on how you and he are doing-my Riker was a mutilator-and gliders can mutilate any area they can reach-not just the penis/private areas. Praying for your little guy.
_________________________
Jen/Colin :bb: Commander Riker 12 16 02-10 04 12 you will be FOREVER missed :wfb: Sinbad, :wfb: Gabby, :grey: Baby, and :grey: Alley

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#28971 - 11/07/04 10:23 PM Re: new user. Mutilation issue [Re: ]
Xfilefan Offline
Serious Glideritis

Registered: 02/22/03
Posts: 8899
Loc: Jacksonville, FL
Okay, per PM, we need a vet in the Murray, KY area-any suggestions?

Also, we need a consulting vet's phone # who has worked with the mutilators.

-Finally found it on the map. You're also close to the Tennessee border, right? Perhaps one close to the border in TN would work, too? ie, Union City, Clarksville?


Edited by Xfilefan (11/07/04 10:42 PM)
_________________________
Jen/Colin :bb: Commander Riker 12 16 02-10 04 12 you will be FOREVER missed :wfb: Sinbad, :wfb: Gabby, :grey: Baby, and :grey: Alley

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#28972 - 11/07/04 11:14 PM Re: new user. Mutilation issue [Re: ]
Lucy Offline
Serious Glideritis

Registered: 02/14/01
Posts: 7354
Loc: Lexington, KY
Probably Bourbon's vet in Clarksville would be the closest. My vet, in Lexington, is a possibility, but Clarksville is probably 2-3 hours closer.
_________________________


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#28973 - 11/08/04 06:29 PM Re: new user. Mutilation issue [Re: ]
Xfilefan Offline
Serious Glideritis

Registered: 02/22/03
Posts: 8899
Loc: Jacksonville, FL
Lucy, could you possibly post or PM her the name/phone number of that vet? I don't have that information.

Other than that, is there an update on this little fellow? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/worried2.gif" alt="" />
_________________________
Jen/Colin :bb: Commander Riker 12 16 02-10 04 12 you will be FOREVER missed :wfb: Sinbad, :wfb: Gabby, :grey: Baby, and :grey: Alley

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#28974 - 11/09/04 10:23 AM Re: new user. Mutilation issue [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Here is the update. He got the collar on and we found a vet that could do the surgery to try to get off all the dead tissue. Staples hates the collar and fought himself out of it a number of times. I did finally get a way to keep it on though.
The vet was suggested to me by a friend. His name is Dr. Ray and he is in Mayfield. Only a thrity minute drive. They are also doing testing today. Fecal, urinalysis and skin scrapes to see what is going on. The urinalysis came back with blood in it. The doc said however that his machine? doesn't have the chip to do bloodwork? Don't know about that though. Could probably still use help finding a consulting doc who has worked with sms.
Anyway, he is at the vet now and I am taking my lunch soon to go visit with him. He will come home this evening and I will update you all again then.
Again. Thanks to everyone. This has been a long ordeal for both my baby and myself, but I hope to see the end of the tunnel soon.

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#28975 - 11/09/04 05:01 PM Re: new user. Mutilation issue [Re: ]
Xfilefan Offline
Serious Glideritis

Registered: 02/22/03
Posts: 8899
Loc: Jacksonville, FL
I'm so glad you found a vet! I would like to try and get the name/number of Bourbons, as I know they have worked with mutilators before, I'm going to try emailing her and see if I can get the info for you. (Here's the bad part-I KNOW I have it somewhere, buried in a notebook <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> I haven't managed to find yet.). I think that would be the best consult, especially since they're relatively close to you. I found that Duct tape is the easiest way to secure the collars. Later I'll post a pic of Riker in his-or you can look in my gallery (Xfilefan) and there are some. Bird feeders are the easiest to feed out of in a collar, and the cage needs to be made safe (If it's taller than wide, try turning it on its side-that way in case of a fall in the collar, it isn't too far). I also used a ferret hammock about three inches from the bottom as a 'safety net'. It would also be helpful, if you have time, to go to the GliderHealth site and fill out the mutilator questionnaire-it helps in the research on these gliders so we can help them better, and also with resources for you. I'm going to try finding the pic of the feeders-available at Walmart, grocery stores, and they allow the glider to feed themselves more because they fit inside the collar easy. Hang in there, and know that we're here for you! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wave.gif" alt="" />
_________________________
Jen/Colin :bb: Commander Riker 12 16 02-10 04 12 you will be FOREVER missed :wfb: Sinbad, :wfb: Gabby, :grey: Baby, and :grey: Alley

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#28976 - 11/09/04 05:10 PM Re: new user. Mutilation issue [Re: ]
Xfilefan Offline
Serious Glideritis

Registered: 02/22/03
Posts: 8899
Loc: Jacksonville, FL
I can't find the thread. I'll have to wait until I get home from work and change computers to the one with my picture files on it. The feeders are just the little seed/waterers, plastic, with the see-through tops like used for parakeets. They hang on the outside of the cage, and the 'trough', or narrow feeding 'dish' goes to the inside. Best I can describe them. BML or Ensure is the easiest both for you and him while he's in the collar as a staple, also-since he can lick it up. Hopefully I'll have the pics by midnight.

Anyone have Bourbon's vet's name/number for a consult so we can get this going faster?
_________________________
Jen/Colin :bb: Commander Riker 12 16 02-10 04 12 you will be FOREVER missed :wfb: Sinbad, :wfb: Gabby, :grey: Baby, and :grey: Alley

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#28977 - 11/09/04 05:36 PM Re: new user. Mutilation issue [Re: ]
CritterHill Offline
Glider Addict

Registered: 04/11/03
Posts: 4236
Loc: Illinois, USA
Is it the one listed in the vets directory here?

Animal Clinic of North Clarksville
1567 Ft Campbell Blvd. Clarksville, TN 931-645-9890
_________________________
The Sugar Glider Store

Critter Hill

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#28978 - 11/09/04 08:05 PM Re: new user. Mutilation issue [Re: ]
cyndiekb Offline
Serious Glideritis

Registered: 10/08/03
Posts: 5916
Loc: Cornersville TN I'M HOME :)
YOU NEED TO CALL DR. JACKIE SMITH!!! Number above! Can't come high recomended than from Bourbon in your area!!!!
_________________________
cyndiekb

I heart & miss you HALEY

My runaways 4/04 Lilo, 5/04 Dash & Angel

angel Sprite Says GO STEALTH!! at
AtticWorx

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#28979 - 11/09/04 10:19 PM Re: new user. Mutilation issue [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Hey Thanks. I will call as soon as possible.
They found no parasites in the fecal smear and put him on a stronger antibiotic for the UTI he now has. He had already gotten to the stitches a little when I got him. They chose not to put the collar on him because he seemed calm, but he had gotten to it a little bit by the time I got to him. Not destroyed or ripped out, but nipped at. And the doc was gone when I went to get him so I am taking him back in the morning so he can recheck his foot. Hopefully we won't have to do anything more than clean it. I would hate to think that any more of it would have to come off.
Right now he is sleeping. He didn't seem too interested in eating earlier and as long as he sleeps and doesn't make that noise I am going to leave the collar off. He sleeps in his cage right by my bed so I will wake at his first sound. He seems to be worse about biting in the daytime when he is in his pouch so after the vet visit tomorrow I am going to collar him. I'll come home at lunch to check on him and give him a breather.
Thanks again. I'll update again later.

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#28980 - 11/10/04 02:57 AM Re: new user. Mutilation issue [Re: ]
Xfilefan Offline
Serious Glideritis

Registered: 02/22/03
Posts: 8899
Loc: Jacksonville, FL
Staplesmom, PM sent! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
_________________________
Jen/Colin :bb: Commander Riker 12 16 02-10 04 12 you will be FOREVER missed :wfb: Sinbad, :wfb: Gabby, :grey: Baby, and :grey: Alley

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#28981 - 11/10/04 08:36 AM Re: new user. Mutilation issue [Re: ]
Xfilefan Offline
Serious Glideritis

Registered: 02/22/03
Posts: 8899
Loc: Jacksonville, FL
Apparently, Staples has pulled out a couple of toenails in fighting with the collar. It is staying on since he started making the mutilator noise again, and did a little more damage. Here's a copy of PM reply:

He will fight with the collar-keep his nails trimmed as blunt as possible. He will also have trouble sleeping. They almost prefer kindof a "sitting up" position when in the collar. I used either a detached jacket hood or homemade triangular hammock for Riker-just a large triangular piece of fleece with the lanyard clips poked through the corners (both available in the crafts section of Walmart.). Many mutilators like the towel tunnel-connect a dishtowel to two smaller embroidery hoops and hang low enough in the cage he can climb in - I think its the 5 or 6 inch hoops. It might be a few days before he'll sleep much-I mostly had to hold Riker for him to get much. As to the BML, Riker had trouble with the wheat germ in it, even with extra apple juice added to thin it (he didn't like it before that, or after) and I had the best luck with Ensure (he liked it, and had an easy time eating it. If he'll eat the BML with the pureed veggies to thin it out, you can try that. Either way will throw off the ratios of the BML, but in this situation, short of force feeding, you can't do much about it. These poor guys are a 24 hour a day around the clock project, and I was frequently exhausted and didn't get much sleep at all, especially in the beginning. For his lost toenails, just keep an eye out to make sure no infection shows up. You will probably need to bathe him while in the collar also-since he can't groom himself. Water temp should be warm, but almost feel like it's not there when run on your wrist. We'd either "dip" him in a clean bathroom sink with about 2" of water, or run it over him held in a washcloth, and gently rub any sticky areas, towel dry, and keep next to you and warm until completely dried out. (I'm also going to put this in the thread). Anything else, please don't hesitate to ask. Also, cleaning off the area where he pulled the nails might not be a bad idea either. I know what you're going through, and it's anything but easy. You feel so bad for these guys, and so guilty, but it will save their lives. Hang in there-you're doing fine.
<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumb.gif" alt="" /> In fact, you're doing awesome.

These guys are a really tough road-for those who haven't had one. The amount of guilt and sadness you feel for a mutilator can be almost overwhelming, while at the same time knowing that they don't understand, but also knowing it is necessary to make them well and save their life. It's exhausting constant work and vigilance. Staplesmom can use all of your prayers and support right now-I know she has mine. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/hug2.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/hug2.gif" alt="" />
**Attaching pic from the GliderHeath site with an example of a mutilators cage-including the towel tunnel.


Attachments
299599-Mutilatorcage.jpg (11 downloads)



Edited by Xfilefan (11/10/04 09:02 AM)
_________________________
Jen/Colin :bb: Commander Riker 12 16 02-10 04 12 you will be FOREVER missed :wfb: Sinbad, :wfb: Gabby, :grey: Baby, and :grey: Alley

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#28982 - 11/10/04 09:04 AM Re: new user. Mutilation issue [Re: ]
Xfilefan Offline
Serious Glideritis

Registered: 02/22/03
Posts: 8899
Loc: Jacksonville, FL
Here is a pic of the feeders.


Attachments
299611-Feeders2.jpg (12 downloads)

_________________________
Jen/Colin :bb: Commander Riker 12 16 02-10 04 12 you will be FOREVER missed :wfb: Sinbad, :wfb: Gabby, :grey: Baby, and :grey: Alley

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#28983 - 11/10/04 09:08 AM Re: new user. Mutilation issue [Re: ]
Xfilefan Offline
Serious Glideritis

Registered: 02/22/03
Posts: 8899
Loc: Jacksonville, FL
Riker sleeping in a detached hood in my lap. I used to also hang this in the cage for him.


Attachments
299612-Im000844.jpg (13 downloads)

_________________________
Jen/Colin :bb: Commander Riker 12 16 02-10 04 12 you will be FOREVER missed :wfb: Sinbad, :wfb: Gabby, :grey: Baby, and :grey: Alley

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#28984 - 11/10/04 09:12 AM Re: new user. Mutilation issue [Re: ]
Xfilefan Offline
Serious Glideritis

Registered: 02/22/03
Posts: 8899
Loc: Jacksonville, FL
Riker during a daytime play session in the collar. These guys tend to get their days and nights mixed up a bit.


Attachments
299616-Cliffhanger.jpg (13 downloads)

_________________________
Jen/Colin :bb: Commander Riker 12 16 02-10 04 12 you will be FOREVER missed :wfb: Sinbad, :wfb: Gabby, :grey: Baby, and :grey: Alley

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#28985 - 11/10/04 09:14 AM Re: new user. Mutilation issue [Re: ]
CritterHill Offline
Glider Addict

Registered: 04/11/03
Posts: 4236
Loc: Illinois, USA
Praying for Staples. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frostyangel.gif" alt="" /> And a big hug for Staplesmom, you are probably exhausted. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/hug2.gif" alt="" />

Catherine
_________________________
The Sugar Glider Store

Critter Hill

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#28986 - 11/10/04 01:45 PM Re: new user. Mutilation issue [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


I am extremely exhausted. Every move he made last night I would wake up (or rather not go to sleep) and look at him to be sure the collar wasn't off. That made for a long sleepless night. The doctor wasn't in this morning when I called. I am going to get off here next and call again. Maybe he will be in now. Before I go, I will give you the latest update from here. I pmed this to Xfilefan already but thought this might help someone else too.

He looks really, really tired. I just got home for lunch and he was still up. He isn't fighting the collar anymore so that is either because he is exhausted or he is getting used to it. I made yet another modified pouch just now using what you told me. I folded a hand towel in two and seamed up one end to look like a jacket hood then attached it in a triangle shape to the top of the cage. He is getting a drink right now, but when he got into it earlier he did look more comfortable.
He eats the BML great. He prefers it over everything else I feed him (well, except mealworms <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />). So much so that I have to give him the fruits and veggies seperate most of the time.
I just blended some up to see if he'd take it and guess what. He ate an entire spoonful <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/yelclap.gif" alt="" />. So tonight I will get the new feeder and see how that goes. Wish us luck.

In addition, he is now sleeping <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumb.gif" alt="" />. I am so glad. I don't dare bother him. Thanks for all your prayers and advice. Staples thanks you too <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/sleep.gif" alt="" />. I am going now. I will update again later.

Kim

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#28987 - 11/10/04 02:29 PM Re: new user. Mutilation issue [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


OK. Latest update. Staples is sleeping like a baby <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cloud9.gif" alt="" />. The doc who did his surgery was in but is now back out on a call <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/ohwell.gif" alt="" />. I am going to call back at 430. I also called Dr. Smith in Clarksville. She said to keep up what I am doing and keep the collar on until about two or three weeks after he is all healed then take it off under supervision for a couple more weeks to make sure he wont start again. If he does, she says I can try anti anxiety meds or pain releivers. Hope we don't have to go that route, but I'll do anything to keep my baby well. Right now I am going to do something to keep myself well. I am calling off for the rest of the day and taking a long nap. I am so happy to see him sleep that I think I will sleep like a log, but I am setting the alarm to call the doc. Don't want to chance missing him again. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/hug2.gif" alt="" /> for everyone.

Staples and Kim

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#28988 - 11/11/04 04:24 AM Re: new user. Mutilation issue [Re: ]
Xfilefan Offline
Serious Glideritis

Registered: 02/22/03
Posts: 8899
Loc: Jacksonville, FL
If these special guys are anything, it's exhausting. Both the lack of sleep and emotional toll take a lot out of you. Glad to hear he is resting finally, and make sure you get some, too. I think I didn't have more than a couple of hours sleep at a time for quite a while, and every sound or move Riker made I was wide awake. But the special, loving guy I ended up with made it all worth it in the end. (Riker is my Avatar right now). All the one on one seems to produce an especially close bond I don't have with my other gliders. He does know that you're trying to help on some level, you know. You're doing fine, and like I said, if there's any way I can help, don't hesitate to contact me, or even if you just need to talk. Staples is a strong little dude, or he wouldn't have made it this far, -many don't -and with you to help him through I can't help but think that things will work out for him. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> Keep up the good work!
_________________________
Jen/Colin :bb: Commander Riker 12 16 02-10 04 12 you will be FOREVER missed :wfb: Sinbad, :wfb: Gabby, :grey: Baby, and :grey: Alley

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#28989 - 11/13/04 07:11 AM Re: new user. Mutilation issue Update [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Hello all. I have news. The vet looked at staples yesterday and said his foot should heal fine without any other surgeries. He also advised taking the antibiotic down to once a day to fend off the runs.
Today I took his collar off to feed and allow grooming and he groomed that foot without even seeming like he wanted to attack it. Also, he didn't jump out of his skin when I touched it either. However, I am not going to be too optimistic. He went back into the collar right before going to bed. I am going to do as the doc suggested. Collar for two weeks until all the healing and itching goes away.
I have posted the new diet I am trying in the diet and nutrition forum under E-collar diet-Is it okay? Check it out and let me know what you think.
Anyway, all seems well. And much better than last week. Thanks again for all your help and advice.

Kim and Staples

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#28990 - 11/14/04 04:28 AM Re: new user. Mutilation issue Update [Re: ]
Xfilefan Offline
Serious Glideritis

Registered: 02/22/03
Posts: 8899
Loc: Jacksonville, FL
I'm so glad Staples is doing better! Hopefully the reduction in meds will help with the diarrhea-antibiotics can be hard on their little systems. Keep the collar on until it is completely healed. I hope he doesn't have "ghost pains" from the missing toes-they could take longer to get under control-might want to ask the vet what he thinks in that area at his next visit (My husband is missing a finger, and has some problems-thought I should bring it up). He could (not will by any means) have sensations not only that it's there, but that it's hurting or itching when it isn't (obviously, nothing is actually there to hurt or itch!). I don't know myself, but he deals with it. It might be something to watch out for in the future-have no clue whether animals are subject to this or not. Riker took a month after his surgery before he started acting like it didn't happen and was able to stay out of the collar. I'm so glad, though, that Staples looks like he can look forward to a happy future!! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
-Still keep us updated on his progress, too, though! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wave.gif" alt="" />


Edited by Xfilefan (11/14/04 04:32 AM)
_________________________
Jen/Colin :bb: Commander Riker 12 16 02-10 04 12 you will be FOREVER missed :wfb: Sinbad, :wfb: Gabby, :grey: Baby, and :grey: Alley

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