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#28991 - 11/07/04 08:07 PM Dale's options (opinions please)
Anonymous
Unregistered


The vet called me the other day and gave me some different ideas on what to do with Dale (he has been prolapsed for almost 3 weeks now). She said that she could try doing a purse cinch suture, amputation, neutering, or amputation and neutering at the same time. She also said that if I wanted to wait and see if it goes back in that would be fine too. I haven't heard very good things about the purse cinch suture so any experiences or opinions on this would be very helpful.

The very tip of part of him is a little black, but not very much at all. He is healthy in every other way besides this one issue so waiting is not going to hurt him. It gets so close to going back in on its own after he goes to the bathroom. I'm tempted to see if the second dose of wormer will help (he gets it on the 17th).

He is currently on Torb and calcionate syrup. He hasn't been bothering it for a while so his collar has been off. I think the Torb really helped with that.

I'm kind of at a lack of things to try besides neutering, amputation, or the purse suture. Any ideas or thoughts would be most welcome.

One last question, when they amputate, is it just the black part that gets cut off?

I'm probably going to try some prep H tomorrow, but I need to separate him and put his collar back on so I'm not really looking forward to it.

PS. Sorry this is so long

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#28992 - 11/08/04 01:26 AM Re: Dale's options (opinions please) [Re: ]
the gliders angel Offline
Glider Addict

Registered: 08/08/01
Posts: 3059
Loc: u.s.a.
i would contact mary and charlie h from glidertree as they are experts in this field.

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#28993 - 11/08/04 08:03 AM Re: Dale's options (opinions please) [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


I have a vet in Dallas TEXAS , e-mile them and ask them ,they are very good with Glider <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/littleglider.gif" alt="" />.And see 100 of Glider <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/littleglider.gif" alt="" />a week.Dr.Effie Glannopoulos at www.cityvet.com
<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumb.gif" alt="" />
mikal


Edited by Glider Slaves (11/08/04 08:07 AM)

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#28994 - 11/08/04 06:52 PM Re: Dale's options (opinions please) [Re: ]
Xfilefan Offline
Serious Glideritis

Registered: 02/22/03
Posts: 8899
Loc: Jacksonville, FL
I'm sorry I didn't answer sooner-I wanted to think about the options you put forward first. Riker-when he was mutilating-damaged a small part of the end of one penis (about 1/16 of an inch or so)-it shed and fell off by itself, and healed without surgery. I don't know exactly how much dead tissue you are talking about. Usually, when they talk "amputation"-it means the whole thing. I really wouldn't do that. It won't address the underlying cause, just remove the symptom of him prolapsing, and I couldn't personally do a surgery like that on one of mine for that reason. The purse suture, in every case I personally know of, caused more problems, and did not solve the problem. Because they pee/poop and reproduce out of that same opening, it cannot be closed off completely. Close it partially, they still prolapse, plus have problems peeing, pooping, AND it creates a trap for bacteria and infection. With Riker, and several others I know of, neutering has solved the problem, once all infection has been cleared WHEN THE POM POM WAS REMOVED in addition to the testes. Success rates are not as good when the pom pom is left. If you'd like to talk about this on the phone, you're more than welcome to call. 435-783-6097. Bourbon and I have discussed this quite a bit with other cases, and I'm just trying to think what's best for your little guy.
_________________________
Jen/Colin :bb: Commander Riker 12 16 02-10 04 12 you will be FOREVER missed :wfb: Sinbad, :wfb: Gabby, :grey: Baby, and :grey: Alley

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#28995 - 11/09/04 12:35 AM Re: Dale's options (opinions please) [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


If you want another unqualified opinion...

A purse string for this problem makes no anatomical sense to me. It is doing surgery in a dirty, non-sterile area that just asks for problems. It can obstruct stool exit. It never really addresses the underlying issue with the genito-urinary system. Xfilefan's comment on poor experience with it says a lot.

I agree with Xfilefan too about the amputation or partial amputation. A black, necrotic area will often slough off by itself. That may heal with scaring that obstructs the opening, and some surgery may be inevitable if that occurs. That could occur with or without sloughing. When he's under the anesthetic for neutering, could your veterinarian probe the opening to make sure that it is open and un-obstructed? Since he's already under, it may save a second trip later. Also, after removing the male hormone, it even harder to get to the penis to check later on.

Neutering at least makes sense. Removing the testes removes male hormone, which effects the tissues in question in a good way toward solving the problem. Less stimulated and less responsive genital tissues has merit. (And keep this guy out of the Viagra, he doesn't need any more courage.)

I can't for the life of me come up with any rationale why removing the entire pompom would be any more beneficial that just taking the testes. Either removes the hormone-making organ that is stimulating the penis. The location of the pompom is remote from the actual area where the penis is prolapsed, so I don't see any beneficial anatomical changes. I'd love to hear more about a proposed reasoning for that one. It would be wonderful to have every case of neutering for prolapse logged here and compare actual success numbers for with and without the pompom. Absent great info, I'd go for the gonad only and leave the pompom.

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#28996 - 11/09/04 01:16 AM Re: Dale's options (opinions please) [Re: ]
Xfilefan Offline
Serious Glideritis

Registered: 02/22/03
Posts: 8899
Loc: Jacksonville, FL
Here is the reasoning, you may agree, or not. Horses are the easiest to explain this with. When the testicals are removed, and not the sac, a knot is tied in the vas deferens tubes. It misses another hormone producing gland on the vas deferens, cowboys call them 'buttons', neither my husband or myself can come up with the proper name at the moment. A neutering in this way in equines produces a Stag horse-a horse whose secondary sex characteristics are intact and remain so. A neutering that removes everything-vas deferens, scrotum, and testicals, produces a gelding-no secondary characteristics.
In gliders, those who have been neutered with the pom pom removed tend to lose the bald spot entirely (secondary characteristic) along with everything else. Those who have the pom remain tend to retain that secretion (how, if there is NO hormone left?)and a small bald spot. I know that there have been 2 kinds of mutilators, and mostly, those with the poms removed entirely have stopped the mutilation-as long as any accompanying infection was cleared, while apparently it has not been as successful in the mutilators whose poms are left. It's a theory based on a lot of research over the past two years since Riker mutilated. His poms are gone, and so is the problem-he has been collar free since June of 2003. Some of you may remember participating in a survey a few months ago-about your neutered males and whether pom or not, bald spot or not. It was research to see if there was a correlation on why the pom-leaving neuterings were not working as well on the mutilators as having everything gone-It seems most with the poms left still produce some hormone, while most with it gone do not. It's not proven, but it does happen in other species that leaving anything also leaves SOME hormones, and if that is the underlying problem in these guys, the best chance would be to remove it all. For a glider already in a collar, what's a little longer to give them the best chance? Like I said, you may not agree, and it neutering may not work in every case, especially if there is another issue at work, but I think there is enough to justify the suggestion. It is, of course, the choice of the owner. We have had both kinds done. If I had another mutilator, though, I would definitely opt for the pom poms removed for this reason, and to give him the best chance, but that's me.
_________________________
Jen/Colin :bb: Commander Riker 12 16 02-10 04 12 you will be FOREVER missed :wfb: Sinbad, :wfb: Gabby, :grey: Baby, and :grey: Alley

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#28997 - 11/09/04 09:09 PM Re: Dale's options (opinions please) [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


There is hardly any dead tissue at the tip of one of the penises. It is not much so it may come off on its own. The vet was just saying that if it does need to get amputated it would be easier to get both the amputation and the nuetering done at the same time. This way he would only have to go under once. Amputation may not be neccessary.

I didn't really like the idea of the purse string so your opinions really helped on that. I won't have that done. I guess my biggest fear is that if I do get him neutered what happens if the problem still doesn't go away?

He has had his collar off for quite some time and has not messed with it so I am thinking that he won't mutilate as long as he stays on the painkiller (he can't be on it forever though so something needs to be done). When he was mutilating it was only his penis that he was messing with and he never made the "sound" that I have read about. He is under close supervision just in case. What would be the best way to have the the pom poms removed? With glue or stitches? Would this make him mess with the incision more than if the pom poms remained intact (I think I read that somewhere)? I have no prior experience with this so any information helps. I have already read the posts about neutering on this forum. Thank you all for all the help! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

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#28998 - 11/09/04 09:38 PM Re: Dale's options (opinions please) [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


I just got my little Punk neutered, and they removed the pom and closed the incision with glue. It caused no problems, and the only thing he messed with was a little bit of the glue that had gotten into his fur. It's been about a week and a half and he is healing up very well!

I don't have any experience with stiches(so correct me if I'm wrong), but I believe there's a greater chance that he will mess with the incision with stiches.

Hope this helps some, and I hope your little guy gets better soon!

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#28999 - 11/10/04 12:18 AM Re: Dale's options (opinions please) [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Xfilefan,
Thanks for the reply. Perhaps you are talking about ectopic gonadal or adrenal tissue in the spermatic cord. I learned something new, though. I always thought a stallion (male horse) after neutering is a gelding, and a buck (male deer) is a stag, sometimes people use stag for the neutered version. Didn't know about a stag horse. Thanks.

I'm still wondering about the pom. Not all hormones come from the gonads. Males have estrogen, and females have testosterone or androgens. The adrenal glands make some hormone, and that is obviously intact after neutering. Certainly the gonads make the bigger doses, but pom or no pom, hormone producing capability is not completely removed at neutering.

Whether or not the pom is taken, the entire vas deferens is not removed in either method of neutering. And typically the vas and the scrotum (pom) are not hormone making tissues. They do have hormone receptors, which is what helps boys develop into boys. Without testes being present, the embryos all become girls, and tissue that would have become the pompom becomes the pouch. That also speaks against scrotal production of testosterone. (Our pom-intact neutered guys have no bald spot, etc.) I don't know about the pom-as-a-testosterone-producer theory. I wish we could do blood levels of hormone in pom-intact and pom-absent guys.

Xfilefan, one other question if you don't mind me pestering you. Your post implied that intact dudes self-mutilate more than neutered guys. Is that a common finding? Do females self-mutilate less than males, as they have neutered male testosterone levels? I've never had a SM glider, and am ignorant of this. Thanks for your wisdom and insight.

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#29000 - 11/10/04 12:30 AM Re: Dale's options (opinions please) [Re: ]
Judie Offline
Serious Glideritis

Registered: 10/25/01
Posts: 9173
Loc: Edwardsville, Kansas 66113
As far as I know... intact males are the highest at risk for SM. With more males being neutered.... not sure where they place compared to females.
_________________________
Web site: www.MyLittleGremlin.com

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#29001 - 11/10/04 12:38 AM Re: Dale's options (opinions please) [Re: ]
Judie Offline
Serious Glideritis

Registered: 10/25/01
Posts: 9173
Loc: Edwardsville, Kansas 66113
There are two ways of altering a horse ... 1) Proud Cut as the horse is sterile but but acts like a stallion. 2) Gelding...everything is removed and he has no sexual interest.


Edited by Judie (11/10/04 12:39 AM)
_________________________
Web site: www.MyLittleGremlin.com

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#29002 - 11/10/04 01:45 AM Re: Dale's options (opinions please) [Re: ]
Xfilefan Offline
Serious Glideritis

Registered: 02/22/03
Posts: 8899
Loc: Jacksonville, FL
We're not sure why the ones with the poms removed tend to do better. There can be different reasons for mutilation-from injury to illness, and possibly the hormones themselves in the males. It's like some gliders at puberty absolutely can't stop messing with themselves (feels strange? who knows, I'm not a male)-causing irritation that progresses to pain and mutilation. We know that in most cases where there is no infection, and nothing else can be found, neutering with removal of the pom has stopped the problem in several cases. Similar cases, nothing else found, neutered with pom left (and accompanying small bald spot)-has not. Sometimes there is an accompanying infection that is the trigger, sometimes not. We're thinking perhaps more relevant tissue is removed somehow when the pom is. Supporting the lesser levels in this case is the fact that the vast majority of gliders that have the pom removed have NO bald spot at all, while most that have the poms left do have one. I think mostly in females, it is not hormone related, but infection or injury in the cases I've read-but males seem to tend to mutilate the private areas more, and for reasons sometimes not related to illness, injury, or neutering wouldn't probably work at all. And there are actually several sources for hormones to greater or lesser degrees. Most people don't know that a female uterus DOES produce hormones(estrogen/progesterone)-albeit not in as great amounts as the ovaries (even in humans). I know in my own case, removal of that organ, even though the ovaries were left intact-solved several hormone related problems, and my OBGYN explained that there are organs that do produce but most don't know about it. I don't know if the sac itself in a male might be a low source of testosterone (maybe enough to maintain a sex drive, and small bald spot?) or if when they remove the pom, perhaps they tend to remove more of the vas deferens with it (they usually don't tie it off when they do it that way)-enough so that the secondary source is gone too. I know that the production of hormones does not cease entirely with neutering-but say there are hypothetically 4 possible sources, testes, sac, 'buttons', and adrenal gland. 1 of those removed, the testes, much lessens the hormones present, but still leaves 3-maybe just enough to not eliminate the problem, as opposed to if 2 or 3 sources (everything except the adrenal gland) are gone. I also wish we could hormone test pom-intact or not-the closest we could come was the survey on the info tree site-blood tests are notoriously hard to get from gliders as it is. To the last question-all of the mutilators I have read about/worked with personally that mutilated in the privates were intact when it started, and usually just entering puberty, though a few were older (but intact). Usually when neutered, it seems to be a UTI or other infection/or injury that is the trigger, and its the cloacal area as opposed to the penis itself that gets chewed on. I know that I haven't come close to knowing the details of every case of mutilation, these are just what I've seen on the ones I know about.

Believe it or not, I married a Farrier, and used to work at the Santa Anita and Los Alamitos racetracks in CA, which is why I used horses as an example (Years more familiarity with their anatomy). A stag horse definitely is different than a gelding, although frequently the term gelding is used for any neutered horse, it's not always correct. The first (I think) type Judie mentioned is what usually results in a stag-when they still have enough to be functional, but cannot reproduce.

Squirrle-typically glue is used to seal the incision (not always, I have heard of stitches) and it can increase the possiblility they will mess with it (but with a mutilator, they already are). Don't know if the glue/stitch bothers them, if they think they just have to groom it off, or what. I know Riker wouldn't leave his alone, so he stayed in the collar until all trace of the surgery was gone, no scab left, and new hair filling in. Once we got to that point, and I took the collar off, he acted like nothing ever happened and has been collar free since. He has not prolapsed, nor have I seen his penis out at all since. (It is still there, though). Bourbon and I have also discussed that it would be interesting to see if the mutilators with the poms left that are still having problems, if they were redone to remove the pom would it help? I guess unless someone tries it, on a mutilator, we may not find out.


Edited by Xfilefan (11/10/04 01:55 AM)
_________________________
Jen/Colin :bb: Commander Riker 12 16 02-10 04 12 you will be FOREVER missed :wfb: Sinbad, :wfb: Gabby, :grey: Baby, and :grey: Alley

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