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#296161 - 05/24/07 07:59 AM More Grape Related Deaths
Anonymous
Unregistered


As of yesterday, I'm gutted to have to tell you but grapes have claimed the lives of 2 more animals belonging to some very good friends of mine in the UK. I'm not going to say what kind of animal as they will come forward and announce it themseleves when they feel ready, all I will tell you is it's not suggies, dogs or parrots.

The past reports of dogs and parrots are easy to dismiss as the dogs are in the US and they belong to strangers, I've fed all my animals grapes and there's never been any problems, but now it's too close to home to ignore (or bury your head in the sand!)

IF YOU ARE FEEDING GRAPES, STOP NOW!! It has NOTHING to do with different digestive systems or how they function. I believe it is the insecticide DDT that is STILL used in SOME countries today. The DDT is sprayed whether it's directly on to the crop or not, some residue will settle on to the plant BUT ALSO it is washed INTO the soil and is ABSORBED by the plant and will be passed on to the fruit growing on the plant. So washing the fruit thoroughly WILL NOT wash away the DDT, it's actually IN the fruit.

I would imagine the toxins build up in the system to the point that the kidneys cannot cope with trying to erradicate it, and they fail, which sadly happened to my friends animals.

I know there's going to be people who will say "I'm not going to stop feeding them to my suggies because they love them!" but ask yourself if it's worth it! Your suggies won't love you any less if they don't receive another grape, but how will you feel if the grape you've handed your suggie is laced with a very potent toxin?

I should also say that in the US and in the UK DDT is NOT used, so Californian grapes MAY be ok, but again is it worth the risk? I won't be feeding a single grape to any animal ever again, it makes me wonder whether WE should even be eating them!!

PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE DON'T IGNORE THIS!!

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#296175 - 05/24/07 08:23 AM Re: More Grape Related Deaths [Re: ]
Gossamer Offline
Glider Slave

Registered: 11/22/06
Posts: 1667
Loc: Long Island, NY
I don't feed grapes, due to the controversy, however I wonder how it can be 100% certain that it is from grapes, unless grapes are the only food source for the animal.
_________________________
Jeannine

3 Cats (Spike, Kismet, Honeycat)
1 understanding Husband
1 WFB Neutered Glider boy - Grissom! (oop 8/7/06) :wfb:
1 BB Glider girl- Willows! (oop 1/7/07) :bb:

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#296186 - 05/24/07 08:35 AM Re: More Grape Related Deaths [Re: Gossamer]
Anonymous
Unregistered


I hate to say, but DDT isn't used on only grapes. We'd have to stop feeding all fruits and veggies imported from other countries if that was the case... JMO

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#296212 - 05/24/07 09:16 AM Re: More Grape Related Deaths [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Originally Posted By: Morrighann
I hate to say, but DDT isn't used on only grapes. We'd have to stop feeding all fruits and veggies imported from other countries if that was the case... JMO


DDT is used in hot countries who are at risk from malaria to keep the mosquito populations down. I wonder if grapes absorb more somehow, maybe due to their size and that of the vine? I don't know, all I know is I shall not feed another grape ever!!!

Gossamer, I don't know the full details yet, I just don't have the heart to ask them, they need to grieve. I know the animals were rushed to the vet during Tuesday evening, the vet has told them it was kidney failure due to the grapes in the diet. I don't know anymore than that at this time.

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#296214 - 05/24/07 09:16 AM Re: More Grape Related Deaths [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


FOreget it i will not feed my animals anything. sheesh

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#296217 - 05/24/07 09:24 AM Re: More Grape Related Deaths [Re: ]
melek007 Offline
Glider Addict

Registered: 01/03/07
Posts: 3874
Loc: Eastern NC
Like Gossamer, I don't feed grapes because of the controversy surrounding them. They may or may not be related to deaths of sugar gliders, but I would rather be safe than sorry. Thanks for the post.
_________________________
~ I miss my Alev, Nese & Levent ~

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#296224 - 05/24/07 09:33 AM Re: More Grape Related Deaths [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


I think I will go to the local farmers market to buy fruits and veggies during summer/spring/fall. Winter would be a hard time to find fruits and veggies you can trust though.

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#296233 - 05/24/07 09:46 AM Re: More Grape Related Deaths [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


It's just been brought to my attention that according to the ASPCA report that dogs have been affected by home grown grapes as well as commercially grown grapes! It says certain pesticides and heavy metals have been ruled out, but it doesn't say which pesticides! Which to my mind is even worse, becuase that's ANOTHER dead end!


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#296236 - 05/24/07 09:53 AM Re: More Grape Related Deaths [Re: melek007]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Originally Posted By: melek007

I don't feed grapes because of the controversy surrounding them.


As well as I - I am a new SG owner and while Grapes are on my menu they will NOT be on the menu for my precious Sugar Gliders (to much of a risk that I am not willing to take).

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#296248 - 05/24/07 10:04 AM Re: More Grape Related Deaths [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


haha Furf, I was going to say the same thing... Nothing seems safe anymore...

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#296282 - 05/24/07 10:31 AM Re: More Grape Related Deaths [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Don't want to cause controversy here, but I'm pretty sure that DDT has been banned in most countries since the 80s at least. There's been a whole bunch of problems with that pesticide; i.e. Silent Spring by Rachel Carson, it caused thinning of bird shell eggs and started to add to certain bird species extinctions.... Not saying it's okay to feed grapes if you feel unsafe about them, but I just wanted to throw that out there.

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#296296 - 05/24/07 10:39 AM Re: More Grape Related Deaths [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Yea, i thought that DDT was banned here in the US as well. I will have to read more into that.

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#296298 - 05/24/07 10:40 AM Re: More Grape Related Deaths [Re: ]
Dancing Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 09/10/04
Posts: 22746
Loc: 80 acres of paradise in KS
Ok, here we go again. I understand the concerns, honestly I do however...


Speaking for myself, I have had gliders for over 10 years. I have had about 150 gliders come through my home. I have ALWAYS fed grapes.

NO, I do not feed grapes imported into the US but only those grown here (because of the risk of DDT and other garbage some contries use).

Because 2 animals died from grapes, animals that are NOT sugar gliders, in the UK, does not mean that the grapes you buy in the States and feed to gliders is going to kill them.

There are risks in EVERY food we eat. EVERY food we feed our gliders or other animals.

I for one can not base my gliders diet decisions on a second hand report that grapes (or any food) has killed animals (not even gliders) especially without the vet report (necropsy report) that proves that it IS the grapes and not some other part of the diet. If it was DDT, then it really was NOT the grapes but the DDT. Be aware of where your produce comes from. Use standard precautions by washing your produce (regardless where you buy it). And try not to have knee jerk reactions to two animals, not gliders dying from MAYBE grapes.

If we react each time someone has something bad to post about foods, our gliders and ourselves would all just end up starving to death.
_________________________
620-704-9109
Judge not until you have walked in their shoes and lived their lives. What you see online is only part of the story.

I could have missed the pain
But I'd of had to miss the dance


The soul would have no rainbow if the eyes had no tears.

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#296299 - 05/24/07 10:41 AM Re: More Grape Related Deaths [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Here's DDT on Wikipedia. Lots of info...

There are alternatives to DDT and other insecticides that farmers still use, and definitely not just on grapes. Even people at farmers markets and what not may use insecticides on their crops. Unless they claim to be 100% organic, I'm not sure if you can ever really know.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DDT

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#296301 - 05/24/07 10:42 AM Re: More Grape Related Deaths [Re: Dancing]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Here is some food for thought to ease those who do like to fee grapes:

"EPA press release - December 31, 1972]
The general use of the pesticide DDT will no longer be legal in the United States after today, ending nearly three decades of application during which time the once-popular chemical was used to control insect pests on crop and forest lands, around homes and gardens, and for industrial and commercial purposes."


You can read all about it here

I remember this happening when i was a kid and DDT was in teh bug sprays for humans.

I agree with dancing

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#296315 - 05/24/07 10:51 AM Re: More Grape Related Deaths [Re: ]
ValkyrieMome Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 01/13/07
Posts: 10983
Loc: Denton, TX
DDT is still manufactured in the US, and exported to other countries. Countries which we then IMPORT crops from - which have had OUR DDT used on them. It is illegal to use it in the US, however, never underestimate the greed of multi-national corporations.
_________________________
Alden
"Animals can communicate quite well. And they do. And generally speaking, they are ignored." Alice Walker


Mom to Valhalla; 6 cats; 1 macaw; 2 hedgehogs;
and very many great gliders!

(plus the 2 skin kids)
valkyriegliders.com

Kyrie, nothing will ever fill the hole you left in my heart.

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#296322 - 05/24/07 10:54 AM Re: More Grape Related Deaths [Re: Dancing]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Originally Posted By: Dancing

Because 2 animals died from grapes, animals that are NOT sugar gliders, in the UK, does not mean that the grapes you buy in the States and feed to gliders is going to kill them.


As I said in the original post grapes grown in the US MAY be ok, however dogs have reacted to and died from home grown grapes as well as commercial grapes.

However, this is 2 MORE deaths from grapes, as well as god knows how many dogs, and parrots, and it seems it's nothing to do with digestive systems because these animals are in no way related to either dogs or parrots!! An animal that isn't a rat will still die if it consumes rat poison. If a toxin is present it will affect any organism!!

The reason grapes are being blamed is because (Gossamer, I asked!!) the animals in question got into a box of grapes overnight and consumed a large amount of them. The animals were both found that morning limp and lifeless, they were immediately rushed to the vet, one died at 8am that morning the other at 5pm. It's worth bearing in mind that my friends (and myself) were skeptical of the grape issue - hence they were still feeding them without any problem. I really don't think we can dismiss this! I'm not a one for drama (which is why I don't post much on here), but I thought you all should know! I for one won't be feeding grapes again, but dancing - would your attitude have been different if it was a glider?


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#296327 - 05/24/07 10:57 AM Re: More Grape Related Deaths [Re: ]
jacknsally Offline
Glider Addict

Registered: 03/30/05
Posts: 3224
Loc: North Fort Worth - TX
Alix this article says the early 1960's caused by the book Silent Spring- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DDT

Quote:
The book resulted in a large public outcry that eventually led to DDT being banned in the US, and its publication was one of the signature events in the birth of the environmental movement. DDT was subsequently banned for agricultural use worldwide, but its use in disease vector control continues to this day in some parts of the world.


As for dogs- the reason why grapes are so deadly is till unknown. It's also stated they must injest a large quanity of grapes- anything above a handful can be deadly.
http://www.snopes.com/critters/crusader/raisins.asp

As for gliders corn, peas & grapes- Moderation is the key with these foods. Just as precautions are taking with mealies & crickets for aflatoxins but not cut out.

_________________________
Ñancy
~Always on my mind & in my heart Jack, Sally & Serenity~


Mobmilli's Boutique

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#296329 - 05/24/07 10:59 AM Re: More Grape Related Deaths [Re: ]
GliderLove Offline
Glider Addict

Registered: 06/08/06
Posts: 4801
Loc: SE Minnesota..
I AGREE with Dancing, I feed grapes and always have. I feed my gliders the same fruits and veggies I feed my own human kids. I buy alot of organic locally and in the summer they have things I grow also. Actually alot of organic foods you can get now are really not much more then grocery store prices. I always feed US grown foods too though.

I can see why concerns arise but really, it could be ANY FOOD. I am not trying to cause controversy either, but I don't panic about grapes either.

Just my .02

OK, I do not know what type of pets these where, but I would NOT have felt diffrent if it where a glider, Certain animals react diffrently to diffrent foods, and you don't know what was sprayed on the grapes, ect. But i would not rule them out all together.
_________________________
Cindy
Mom to
Jae, Ashton, Briannah, Nevaeh & Addy

& all my fuzzies!
Breeder of Leu's, Mosaics, wfb, and standard grey's.
Owner of www.MySugarAddiction.com

:rtmo: :leu:


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#296335 - 05/24/07 11:02 AM Re: More Grape Related Deaths [Re: ]
jacknsally Offline
Glider Addict

Registered: 03/30/05
Posts: 3224
Loc: North Fort Worth - TX
Originally Posted By: moorie999
The reason grapes are being blamed is because (Gossamer, I asked!!) the animals in question got into a box of grapes overnight and consumed a large amount of them.


That's the key right there- All grape related renal failure have been due to LARGE amount of grapes at one time. Not the occasional treat of 1 or 2. As with gliders- moderation is the key and used occasionally. Any food that is known to be toxic is toxic in large amount of quanities.
_________________________
Ñancy
~Always on my mind & in my heart Jack, Sally & Serenity~


Mobmilli's Boutique

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#296336 - 05/24/07 11:07 AM Re: More Grape Related Deaths [Re: jacknsally]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Originally Posted By: jacknsally
Alix this article says the early 1960's caused by the book Silent Spring- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DDT



yeah I knew Carson wrote the book in the 60s. I used to be a bio major so I took tons of micro/zoo/biology courses. All this stuff is extrememly interesting to me, you just have to make sure don't take just one person's word for something--do lots of research yourself. It's fun! smile

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#296341 - 05/24/07 11:15 AM Re: More Grape Related Deaths [Re: ValkyrieMome]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Yep, whether suggie or grape related or not, just be aware that DDT and all it's awful effects are still swingin' today in modern 2007! (Rachel Carson book is an excellent resource on that for anyone who wasn't required to read it in college...it's fantastic).

Although it isn't allowed to be sprayed on the foods that grow in the US since 1972, it is allowed to be ON the foods SOLD in the US that aren't under strict crop controls at all. As Dancing wisely said, know where your food comes from.

Also, I LOVE Dancing's posts all the time...so this is JUST to help anyone interested in learning more...I'm not advocating a "side" or "no side" or anything, but I do have some thoughts to share about grapes.

It's true as Dancing said that there ARE issues of this nature extended to all the foods (so overwhelming, indeed). However, just for consideration for anyone who is new here or new to the topic of grapes and their controversy, the ASPCA article is what initiated concern for ME personally over this issue. Moorie is citing one single incident (double incident) that hit home to her personal friends, but the ASPCA cites a vet database logging many more of these that *vets* linked with grapes, not Moorie herself. It's not something that Moorie is scaring up on her own based on two animal deaths...it's something she's sharing a personal experience with in much the same way that people share their heartwrenching stories of gliders who pass away from various causes.

It is entirely possible that grapes are NOT at the root of this...but there are many controversial topics in this world that leave us with what if's, and I just like to err on the side of caution with this particular topic. It's not at all that I fear grapes or am paranoid in any way (organic grapes are one of my favorite snacks and I eat them by the handful). It's simply that I'd rather take someone's word for it and be wrong, than to be overlook advice and find out my suggies got hurt from something that *may* have been preventable. My kidney is about a gazillion (official term) sizes larger than my suggies' kidneys, so it's possible that something totally natural within the grape, and not pesticide, is causing dog, or glider, or any animal problems that might not affect humans at all. The ASPCA did not state that pesticides were the root...in fact, the biggest concern is exactly what Dancing alludes to...we really have no solid idea WHAT it is about grapes, IF it is grapes, that might be causing the problem. So it could be anything from a natural ingredient inside them, to an organic pigment found in their skins, to the chemicals farmers use, or NONE of those. Grapes could be entirely safe. Or they could be toxic. We really don't know.

I keep a ladder in my toilet because even though I put my toilet lids down, I know there is a *chance* I could miss that one time, and I'm thankful to all who have shared their stories and tips so that I could be informed with the knowledge to do so. I don't buy fabrics that may or may not catch a glider's fingers, even if someone here says they were fine with that fabric. I don't use leashes even though some people do. Some of these things are considered universally "known" in the glider world. But maybe at one point they were not known, just as proven diets and such had to be developed and learned abou over time, maybe grapes will turn out to be similar. Maybe, maybe not. MAYBE, though.

With grapes, although there remains OPEN QUESTIONING of whether it's the grapes or not that cause this, I just personally feel better not feeding them. They aren't hard for me to remove from their diet, they aren't required specifically in any proven fruit or veggie menu I use, and I just feel good about it. I just buy something else instead of grapes for high water content fruit. Easily, some other fruit or veggie could have the same issue. But since grapes have been specifically pointed out to me, I'm going to remove them.

Also, overall, I am not a vet. I am also not funded with thousands or more dollars to conduct research on grapes, nor am I networked with a database on incidents that link deaths. There may NOT be a causal link between grapes and deaths of dogs after all, but I'm sure going to take the anecdotal observation of the vet database and the ASPCA over my layperson opinion or guess about it. That's ONLY me. I respect Dancing and your right to feed the grapes. I honor that ten years for you have worked out beautifully. But according to the articles, there seems to be no real proven link based on the cause, or amount, of grapes dogs have died from, so I'm not chancing it. One time, with one suggie lost , matters to me. Moorie, I am deeply sorry to learn that your friend's animals died, no matter what caused it. As many vets have pointed this issue out as a topic of concern and worthy of further investigation, I will honor your friends' pets memory by keeping grapes out of my suggie's and own dogs' diets.

Love and Hugs to ALL,
Jen/PocketFaeries

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#296343 - 05/24/07 11:18 AM Re: More Grape Related Deaths [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


JacknSally, I may have misread or misinterpreted the ASPCA article then, based on what I'm reading in your post. I was under the impression (perhaps the wrong impression) that they were not able to strictly narrow down the amount of grapes it took to cause renal failure? I could swear I read that some animals had a grapes over a period of time while others got into a mess of them at once? Please DO correct me if I am off on this...I really am interested and am always VERY open to learning!!!

Love,
Jen

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#296367 - 05/24/07 11:42 AM Re: More Grape Related Deaths [Re: ]
jacknsally Offline
Glider Addict

Registered: 03/30/05
Posts: 3224
Loc: North Fort Worth - TX
Pocket- All the resources I'm finding say that it's the Large amount of quanities they are finding fatal. The occasional getting ahold of is not what's causing the vet Visits.
http://www.dogbreedinfo.com/grapeandraisin.htm

Everything that I read says from a single serving to large amounts- nothing about the occasional grape here and there.

Quote:
And the ingested amounts varied considerably, from over a pound of grapes to as little as a single serving of raisins. The cases weren't from any specific region, but instead came from across the United States.


A single serving at one time or large quanities is not moderation.


I personally just had a near heart attack with my dog who already is in renal failure. I had a bowl of grapes the other night but didn't finish them off- had 8-10 left and still on the vine. I dozed off and went to bed leaving them there on a coffee table.Iin the morning- there was less a few missing and it's possible my dog ate them. If he did, he's showing no signs of concern. So even in my dogs case- who is already in renal failure, getting ahold of the occasional grape was not deadly to him.

Raisins are worse- 1 raisin is equal to like 4 grapes. Now I've always boycotted giving raisins to my gliders. What I can't figure out is why they can't figure out the root of the cause. Espeically since a raisin is worse. sounds almost like a natural sugar substance overdose??

Quote:
Why did the fruit cause the dogs to become ill? No one knows. Suspect grapes and raisins have been screened for various pesticides, heavy metals (such as zinc or lead), and mycotoxins (fungal contaminants) and so far, all results have come back negative. In the cases where the grapes were grown in private yards, owners confirmed that no insecticides, fertilizers or antifungals had been used on the fruit.


My quote source- http://www.aspca.org/site/PageServer?pagename=pro_apcc_publicationsgrapes



_________________________
Ñancy
~Always on my mind & in my heart Jack, Sally & Serenity~


Mobmilli's Boutique

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#296369 - 05/24/07 11:44 AM Re: More Grape Related Deaths [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Originally Posted By: ltlrdangel
I think I will go to the local farmers market to buy fruits and veggies during summer/spring/fall. Winter would be a hard time to find fruits and veggies you can trust though.


off_topic Not all fruits/veggies do well this way, but I like to buy some that are only available during certain times and freeze them for later. Some fruits will come out mushy this way, but others do well. You could pick up some of your favorites at the farmer's market and freeze them to see how they do and the ones that work will be there for you to use later in the year. smile

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#296385 - 05/24/07 12:01 PM Re: More Grape Related Deaths [Re: jacknsally]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Thanks, Jacknsally...fabulous! thumb

I interspersed my thoughts with yours below:

Everything that I read says from a single serving to large amounts- nothing about the occasional grape here and there.

Quote:
And the ingested amounts varied considerably, from over a pound of grapes to as little as a single serving of raisins. The cases weren't from any specific region, but instead came from across the United States.


A single serving at one time or large quanities is not moderation.

Indeed...this would be my biggest concern. It's the "varied considerably" that I worry about. Who has measured out the single serving in grape-specific terms for suggies? A suggie holding half a grape is the physical size ratio of me holding a half a cantaloupe in my hands. Since we process things so very differently from species to species, I'm not sure how to interpret this "single serving" to "large quanitity" stuff without having concern that the physical amount/quantity versus the processing of the actual *nutrients* issues are impacting things here. We just eat totally differently from suggies, as do dogs, etc. I'm not very confident with the absence of a solid scientific source to these troubles beyond "grapes." I may just be interpreting the tone of the article differently than you, but my thought is that they can't pinpoint a certain known "safe" limit or amount, so they are advising caution in general. As you outlined with your dog's personal story, it's got to vary from individual animal to animal...so with that in mind, if one dog or suggie could die while the other could be fine with consuming the same amount of grapes in the same short period, I'd worry it's also possible to vary case by case in the long run. For example, I had a kidneystone the size of a large marble years ago. My doctor attributed it to my cosumption of lots of green dark leafy veggies (kale, collard greens, etc.) and lots of sweet tea! smile Yet some people can eat these things all the time and never get one of those blasted things! smile So I am just viewing grapes and suggies with that set of eyes. wink .


Raisins are worse- 1 raisin is equal to like 4 grapes. Now I've always boycotted giving raisins to my gliders. What I can't figure out is why they can't figure out the root of the cause. Espeically since a raisin is worse. sounds almost like a natural sugar substance abuse?? [/quote]

I wonder something, but it may be nothing. smile Raisins often have preservatives like sulfites and perhaps that could be linked to the higher problem rate with raisins? I DO think you are ON to something with the sugar concentration line of thought. Overall, I just wish we had more solid, scientific information on all of this.



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#296414 - 05/24/07 12:37 PM Re: More Grape Related Deaths [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


well lets just all go to whole foods now and get on the whole organic kick.... but then again like someone mentioned earlier how do you know???? :/

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#296417 - 05/24/07 12:41 PM Re: More Grape Related Deaths [Re: ]
jacknsally Offline
Glider Addict

Registered: 03/30/05
Posts: 3224
Loc: North Fort Worth - TX
Originally Posted By: lanie
well lets just all go to whole foods now and get on the whole organic kick.... but then again like someone mentioned earlier how do you know???? :/


I don't think organic will be any safer. I really think the toxin poisons are caused from the meat (fruit) of the grape. There's something with when too much of it is consumed at one time with animals.
_________________________
Ñancy
~Always on my mind & in my heart Jack, Sally & Serenity~


Mobmilli's Boutique

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#296434 - 05/24/07 01:05 PM Re: More Grape Related Deaths [Re: jacknsally]
Anonymous
Unregistered


I agree...and until we know what it is that causes this, it's honestly no sweat off of my back to just scrap grapes from their diet and give watermelon or another high-water content fruit instead. smile

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#296449 - 05/24/07 01:17 PM Re: More Grape Related Deaths [Re: jacknsally]
Gossamer Offline
Glider Slave

Registered: 11/22/06
Posts: 1667
Loc: Long Island, NY
Thank you for the update Moorie. Now it makes sense.

I'm not going to feed something to my gliders that has the potential of causing death - whether it has to be a large quantity or not. If ten grapes cause death - then feeding one is okay? That's not logical to me. It's not heart medicine - there are plenty of other things you can feed your gliders. And as another said - the grape controversy is not new, Moorie didn't make it up.
_________________________
Jeannine

3 Cats (Spike, Kismet, Honeycat)
1 understanding Husband
1 WFB Neutered Glider boy - Grissom! (oop 8/7/06) :wfb:
1 BB Glider girl- Willows! (oop 1/7/07) :bb:

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Can sugar gliders live in darkness or do they need a light in the day time?
by Link
10/14/17 01:53 PM
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10/14/17 09:16 AM
Too Soon To Say Goodbye, my Lulu
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