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#297215 - 05/25/07 08:06 AM Physical Discipline
princessmegi Offline
Serious Glideritis

Registered: 11/21/03
Posts: 6894
Loc: NW Missouri
What are you feelings on this? I am fully against it in any manner, but was curious what others thought. I know of at least one person that taps their gliders on the nose when they bite. I would never do this, and feel it is abuse, but know others have different opinions.
_________________________

"My doctrine is this: that if we see cruelty or wrong that we have the power to stop, and we do nothing, we make ourselves sharers in the guilt." ~ Anna Sewell, English Novelist

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#297221 - 05/25/07 08:12 AM Re: Physical Discipline [Re: princessmegi]
Mel2mdl Offline
Glider Addict

Registered: 07/20/06
Posts: 4212
Loc: Garland, TX
I don't physically discipline my child, let alone my pets. There are much better and, if not at least as effective, more effective methods in my book. Time out works for my kid, and, oddly enough, for the gliders too. When they bite - they get put in their cage were they bark to come back out. roflmao

I have blown on the gliders to get them to stop nipping, but usually my reaction stops it ("YEEK! Don't do that!") They hate the noise, or love it, since they like to nibble toes. grin

I don't know that I would call it abuse. Not all things are totally black:white - this falls under a gray shade. Depends on how hard they tap, how close the bond is, the situation. (I think spanking is abuse, but would not report it to CPS.)
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Karl,Lenny,Jynxie,Chamille, Kee & Mr. Beans in my heart forever.
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#297223 - 05/25/07 08:13 AM Re: Physical Discipline [Re: princessmegi]
glidergrl1513 Offline
Serious Glideritis

Registered: 12/21/03
Posts: 5725
Loc: Upstate NY
For suggies, NEVER. They are way too small to handle any type of physical discipline. Mine respond well to PSST or NO if they bite. I know someone said that a tap on the nose would be like a smack in the face with a 2x4, and when you think about it, it is. I would never do that to a glider or anything that small. There are worse methods out there, there was a thread not too long ago about shoving your finger in a biters mouth while holding it firmly down I think or something similar to that. That's animal abuse, any way you look at it.

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#297227 - 05/25/07 08:21 AM Re: Physical Discipline [Re: glidergrl1513]
mattysmom Offline
Glider Guardian

Registered: 01/31/06
Posts: 1234
Loc: Tarpon Springs, FL
There were generations of people who were punished harshly and physically and now we see road rage and anger management and child abuse and mental health problems. I wonder if this isn't the result (though I still believe in RULES for the youth), not that there haven't always been crabby people and problems - it seems to have escalated. I've seen the results of animals having been abused. A tap sounds like a small thing to us but try having Godzilla give you a tap.
_________________________
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#297230 - 05/25/07 08:28 AM Re: Physical Discipline [Re: mattysmom]
Mel2mdl Offline
Glider Addict

Registered: 07/20/06
Posts: 4212
Loc: Garland, TX
Originally Posted By: mattysmom
(though I still believe in RULES for the youth)


So do I - just not physically hitting. It really bothers me (and, before anyone says it, yes I have a child who is polite, kind and caring and was not hit. Neither was I.)

I put my finger to my glider's noses all the time, but not to hit - just in play. When I hear the word "tap" I guess I think "touch" 'cause I can't imagine truly "tapping" an animal that small.

There is a difference between tap and touch. Put your finger on your desk where it makes a small "pht" sound. Now put your finger down again where it makes a louder "thud" sound. Which one are we talking about? The "thud" one is definetly abuse. The "pht" (basically placing a finger to the nose without force) is not. That is where the shades of gray come in.
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Molly, son & husband:

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Oscar & Thomas
Sam, Diego, Delilah, Delia :wfb:
Nevada, Noel
Marcel, Dakota, Latte
Dexter, Didi, Almond, Joy and Fitz
:grey:
Karl,Lenny,Jynxie,Chamille, Kee & Mr. Beans in my heart forever.
Teaching teenagers-part joy, part guerilla warfare! :rbridge:

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#297233 - 05/25/07 08:33 AM Re: Physical Discipline [Re: Mel2mdl]
Anonymous
Unregistered


I just think that us tapping them on the nose would be like someone else said, us getting smacked in the face with a 2 x 4. I think it's a HORRIBLE idea for anyone to physically discipline a glider and I personally think those who do probably don't have the patience to own a glider!!

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#297235 - 05/25/07 08:34 AM Re: Physical Discipline [Re: mattysmom]
Anonymous
Unregistered


I've heard of the finger in the mouth method. A breeder that suggests this on his site. When I was looking for a breeder I came across his site and was surprised. Actually (if you can believe it) once you put the finger in the mouth, you leave it there for almost 30 seconds and repeat until they get the point. Can you imagine doing that?

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#297236 - 05/25/07 08:37 AM Re: Physical Discipline [Re: ]
princessmegi Offline
Serious Glideritis

Registered: 11/21/03
Posts: 6894
Loc: NW Missouri
That's my feeling also. If something 100 times my size tapped me, it would hurt. Even though it was just a tap, it is relative to the body sizes of the tapper and the tappee. Also, I am speaking of actually tapping, not just laying your finger on their nose. I don't really think laying your finger on their nose would be any type of reinforcement to stop the behavior. My gliders would just think I was petting them, which would be a positive reinforcement and urge them to continue the biting or other bad behavior, not to stop it.
_________________________

"My doctrine is this: that if we see cruelty or wrong that we have the power to stop, and we do nothing, we make ourselves sharers in the guilt." ~ Anna Sewell, English Novelist

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#297238 - 05/25/07 08:37 AM Re: Physical Discipline [Re: mattysmom]
Anonymous
Unregistered


I think many folks confuse discipline with punishment. Discipline implies enforcing rules, teaching self-control and respecting the rights of others. Punishment implies the administration of painful physical, emotional or psychological discomfort and fear in order to force someone to act in a certain way. Why would I want to have my companion animals fear me? Respect me...yes. Show self-control...yes. But not cringe in terror everytime they hear me coming. A soft puff to avert a bite, a resounding "PSSSTT" to surprise the biter into letting go, or distracting a wary glider with a treat is a positive way to reinforce good behavior in our gliders without causing them pain or fear.

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#297271 - 05/25/07 09:07 AM Re: Physical Discipline [Re: princessmegi]
Gossamer Offline
Glider Slave

Registered: 11/22/06
Posts: 1667
Loc: Long Island, NY
There is absolutely no reason to "tap" a glider on the nose. All I have to do is move and my gliders stop. If they go to bite my fingers, I say "no" or "psst" and move my fingers. The back away from the motion. It's that simple. Animals are not humans, their little brains can not correlate being hit with the fact they are doing something wrong. As far as human children - there is nothing wrong with a swat on the butt. You only have to do it ONCE for it to be effective. Humans have been raising their children that way for a hundred years with no problems. Road rage has to do with the overpopulation of the human species and the amount of people on the road, not the way they were raised. (trust me, I live on Long Island) My father used the belt on me when I was a kid - ONCE. Then all he had to do was reach for it and I would behave. I am not an emotional wreck because of it. Humans should learn something from the animals. Animals discipline their young with biting, pushing and swatting (all gently). That's nature.
_________________________
Jeannine

3 Cats (Spike, Kismet, Honeycat)
1 understanding Husband
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#297289 - 05/25/07 09:16 AM Re: Physical Discipline [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


While I think that physical discipline is important for both children and animals, I also think that sugar gliders are a difficult case due to their small size and delicate nature. I cannot think of a way to punish a glider that is merely painful as opposed to actually damaging.

That said(tm) I haven't really found it necessary. When the gliders were still getting used to me, they nipped sometimes, but I let them go right ahead and bite me as hard as they like. I did not react, scream, pull away, whatever. A few times they bit hard enough to draw blood. After about a week of this, the gliders were clever enough to not bite me anymore because A) it doesn't accomplish anything, eg I will not stop petting them or whatever if they bite me, and B) if they bite very hard, something incredibly yukky will leak out of my skin, which they seem to really hate the taste of.

*shrugs* haven't had 'em bite me at all in over a month.

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#297295 - 05/25/07 09:20 AM Re: Physical Discipline [Re: Gossamer]
Anonymous
Unregistered


I think that it is WRONG!!! Skeeter would hate me if I tapped him. He still occasionaly bites but not often. I was always just patient with him and when he bit, I just acted like it didn't bother me and never jerked my hand away, I just tried to keep doing what I was doing when he bit without letting him know that it bothered me. After a while when he realized that it didn't do anything for him to bite, he quit. I just always talk camly to him so he will trust me- I don't want him to freak out every time I open his cage! As for my child- a timeout chair in our hallway where there is no tv or toys really works.

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#297309 - 05/25/07 09:33 AM Re: Physical Discipline [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Please don't tap or blow on your gliders! If/when MOE bites (it's usually while on my shoulder he will nibble at my ear, if it hurts, I move him, if he continues this I put him back in his cage (that's just my way). NOW, if my human children misbehave, there going to get a spanking and go to their room (cage).LOL. (no tap on the nose for them either) LOL

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#297314 - 05/25/07 09:37 AM Re: Physical Discipline [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Ok I am jumping in here. There is NEVER EVER a reason to tap a glider on the nose. I do not care if that glider is pit bull biting you or pulling your flesh off!!! AND YES I have had both done to me. This is a very emotional thread for me. I have a glider Buffy who is obvious someone hurt her head/face area. Tapping a glider is ABUSE period! There a new techniques out there to help gliders that are biting. A biting glider is usually a scared glider!!! So what the heck lets "tap" him to break his spirit! Lets not show a animal love, lets hit it to submission. I have soo much empathy for these guys. Buffy has come around alot. I let HER decide what she wants. Like no touching her head, no holding. That is HER decision. Does that mean shes not bonded to me? Umm nope sorry, she is. I just choose to let her have her space as I like mine. Believe me I read this thread and think I would take pleasure in "tapping" someone with a 2 x 4 lol.

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#297319 - 05/25/07 09:40 AM Re: Physical Discipline [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


I wondered when you were gonna chime in Shelle wink . You have come so far with Buffy.

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#297329 - 05/25/07 09:51 AM Re: Physical Discipline [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


shakehead
Rewarding is the best way to get gliders to understand what they're doing. Reward for good, don't do anything for bad. dunno Who would smack a glider!? They should have the same done to them... by an elephant.

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#297335 - 05/25/07 09:56 AM Re: Physical Discipline [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


I tried to stay away from these type of threads MoesMom. I know I will get myself in trouble. Today is a bad day for me and keeping my emotions in check is very hard. Believe me it took everything I had to post nicely lol.
I wonder if the people doing the tapping has ever truely been bit by a glider! Believe me the advice I got when I first posted Buffys story was sometimes sooo stupid but thank God for Dancing and Bourbon. With Buffy I learned a whole new meaning of "taking the bites".
Ok checking out of here to take my poodle to the vets one last time. RIP Miss Lilly

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#297339 - 05/25/07 10:02 AM Re: Physical Discipline [Re: ]
Kitkatt1216 Offline
Glider Slave

Registered: 10/28/06
Posts: 1763
Loc: Connecticut
I clap to distract my gliders when they are getting into something they shouldn't. They find it more interesting to come figure out what the noise is than to do whatever they were doing. I also use a type of time out, when everyone is out playing, if someone bite or misbehaves they get put in the bra. It's not really punishment because they like being in there, but they do seem to get a bit frusterated when they can't play with the others. I've noticed nipping drastically reduced by just pulling them out for a bit, this also worked wonderfully when we went through a short phase where Murph was bullying the girls, chasing them around crabbing. Haven't had either problem since about 2 times of time out. But I could never see tapping or doing anything physical to a glider. They are so small that is just horrible.
_________________________
Katrina
Owned by Murphy and Peanut

**RIP My loves Amunet, MiaKoda, and Kieko**

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#297369 - 05/25/07 10:31 AM Re: Physical Discipline [Re: Kitkatt1216]
Anonymous
Unregistered


A puff of air usually just works fine for me... Unless I've been eating a lollipop or something sweet, then it was usually followed by a hike up my arm and a nip or a lick on the lip. shakehead

If they're REALLY bulldogging it, then I put my hand in front of their face, and kind of "push" them away from whatever it is they're not supposed to be getting into. The fence usually distracts them enough that they put their paws on my hand and peek over the top at me like... What???

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#297390 - 05/25/07 10:48 AM Re: Physical Discipline [Re: princessmegi]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Because sugar gliders are so small, physical disciple shouldn't be use at all. shakehead If you tap them on the nose, they are going to be more scared and aggressive. I don't think that a glider has the mental comprehension of time out, but they do know that if biting isn't getting them what they want - they will stop. If a glider bites me, I ignore it, and continue what I am doing. If you move, they are getting what they want. However, if you have a tame glider that is "tasting" you (like biting you toes for the salt)...that is different - as they are not biting to get you to do something. In this case I would move the glider. I believe children on the other hand do need physical discipline. I think that spanking has gotten a bad name from child abusers and people that misuse spanking.

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#297415 - 05/25/07 11:16 AM Re: Physical Discipline [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


I would never think of tapping my lil guys and I don't blow on them either. The worst I do is the annoyed psst. Mostly I just ignore the bites, even though Pirate Steve is in this rebellious "how far can I push Kate before she reacts" biting phase - it's tame biting (not vicious or leaving any sort of mark), but he tries to go harder to see if I'll do anything; the little booger even looks up at me to see if I've noticed before going back to nibbling my knee or toes! I swear he's too smart for his own good. Happily, he's slowly learning that he reaps greater rewards (mostly in the form of yogie treats and cuddling) by being gentle. I wouldn't want to compromise the trust that we've established by using corporal punishment.

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#297440 - 05/25/07 11:47 AM Re: Physical Discipline [Re: princessmegi]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Gliders do not respond to physical discipline! This is only my opinion, but I am somewhat prone to not use physical discipline on ANYTHING!!! I believe in discipline with animals and children, but with children, I use redirection and natural consequences with my human child. With my sugar glider, I try to do the same. If she does something that is wrong, I put her back in her cage. Sugar Gliders are extremely sensitive and doing anything like using physical punishment will not do anything except associate you with something negative. It will not correct the behavior but will hinder the bonding. glider

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#297758 - 05/25/07 03:48 PM Re: Physical Discipline [Re: ]
melek007 Offline
Glider Addict

Registered: 01/03/07
Posts: 3874
Loc: Eastern NC
I do believe in physical discipline where it is needed, and am totally against it where it is not.
Sugar Gliders won't really be able to understand physical discipline because they don't use that on each other. They will crab at each other, but that's pretty much it.
If I had not been spanked as a child, I WOULD be out of control (when I was really little my mother had to physically restrain me sometimes blush She felt horrible doing it, my poor mother!). Child abuse isn't necessarily related to discipline/punishment, but usually from personal problems of the parent/adult.
_________________________
~ I miss my Alev, Nese & Levent ~

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#297769 - 05/25/07 04:05 PM Re: Physical Discipline [Re: melek007]
Mel2mdl Offline
Glider Addict

Registered: 07/20/06
Posts: 4212
Loc: Garland, TX
I totally agree with CrappyPatty. I was never hit as a child and I am not totally out of control. In fact, of the five of us, only my sister, who was spanked had troubles with the law. My parents, thank God, got into therapy and learned better ways to deal with misbehavior. (She is a well adjusted mom of three now - and she doesn't spank either. grin )

I find it interesting that so many people say it is not okay to hit an animal, but have no problem hitting a kid - and, sorry, that's what a swat or a spank is. There are many more effective ways to discipline a child that does not scare them and hurt them. Just my .02 worth.
_________________________
Molly, son & husband:

Chairman Meow
Oscar & Thomas
Sam, Diego, Delilah, Delia :wfb:
Nevada, Noel
Marcel, Dakota, Latte
Dexter, Didi, Almond, Joy and Fitz
:grey:
Karl,Lenny,Jynxie,Chamille, Kee & Mr. Beans in my heart forever.
Teaching teenagers-part joy, part guerilla warfare! :rbridge:

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#297773 - 05/25/07 04:09 PM Re: Physical Discipline [Re: Mel2mdl]
princessmegi Offline
Serious Glideritis

Registered: 11/21/03
Posts: 6894
Loc: NW Missouri
Maybe you could start a thread in people talk about it...
_________________________

"My doctrine is this: that if we see cruelty or wrong that we have the power to stop, and we do nothing, we make ourselves sharers in the guilt." ~ Anna Sewell, English Novelist

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#297793 - 05/25/07 04:35 PM Re: Physical Discipline [Re: princessmegi]
Anonymous
Unregistered


I have ''nice'' biters. They are just grooming me hard. I read that a tap on the nose would make them stop, so I tried it--very lightly. It was barely a touch. My gliders just looked at me like I was insane. It didn't do any good. I haven't done it since, and believe it is wrong. I was still new to gliders, and believed the person who wrote the article because they had more ''experience'' than me. Mealies work a lot better smile . I also don't agree with spanking.

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#298057 - 05/25/07 11:46 PM Re: Physical Discipline [Re: princessmegi]
Anonymous
Unregistered


I think if a person was to gentle remove their finger / hand that is being bit and then glide it gently over the SG head as you touch the top of their head and say no - that would be ok... put not a tap, for they are way to small for that.

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#298136 - 05/26/07 01:27 AM Re: Physical Discipline [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


There should definatly not be any physical discipline with gliders. When it comes to children this is a really touchy subject.
If you spare the rod you spoil the child.
All animals need some discipline. When my ferret Zoey poops on the floor I tell her no and put her in her cage for awhile. This works for her.
With gliders I just make the pssssssst sound. With my boys if I say no they act like it breaks their heart. upset They've got me wrapped around their little fingers! heart

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#298159 - 05/26/07 02:12 AM Re: Physical Discipline [Re: ]
Gliderbuff Offline
Glider Slave

Registered: 05/07/02
Posts: 1689
Loc: most beautiful place on earth
To continue the conversation further. These are two methods that have actually been used in ways to handle glider biting. Tell us all what you think.

There was one gentleman I met who had really nasty biters when they started out. He now owns six that none of them bite at all.He would put on thick gloves and hold each glider in his gloves for a certain amount of time each day until they stopped biting. He said that after doing this for a while (6 months, he said) they just realized biting wasn't going to get them anywhere. He said that as they started to be less aggressive with bites, he would just use gloves that weren't as thick. What do you think?

Next, there are some people who, when they want to stop REALLY aggressive gliders, they confine them to a small area and coat their fingers with tapioca pudding and stick their hands into whatever they put the glider in. The pearls in the tapioca would make the glider stop the biting and have to chew on the pearls. They would continue to keep the hand in until the glider had eaten a bit and was calmer. What do you think?

Looking forward to your answers!!!

BTW these types are NOT intended to be considered as proper methods, but rather topics to be discussed as to what people think about them.


Edited by Gliderbuff (05/26/07 07:31 AM)
Edit Reason: to clarify

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#298187 - 05/26/07 04:38 AM Re: Physical Discipline [Re: Gliderbuff]
Bourbon Offline
Serious Glideritis

Registered: 04/01/99
Posts: 5333
Loc: Bee-Bopping round SnakePit USA
Quote:
Next, there are some people who, when they want to stop REALLY aggressive gliders, they confine them to a small area and coat their fingers with tapioca pudding and stick their hands into whatever they put the glider in. The pearls in the tapioca would make the glider stop the biting and have to chew on the pearls. They would continue to keep the hand in until the glider had eaten a bit and was calmer. What do you think?


This is a technique i used for pit bull biters, not for use on regular biters or nippers., but we have since grown from that to a much less painful (for us) method.

Please do not do the above with regular biters, I have been working with biters for many years, biters of all levels.
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