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#298875 - 05/27/07 07:34 AM Teaching gliders to swim???
Anonymous
Unregistered


Personally, I never would have thought this to be natural to gliders. I even think there are consequences to be thought out. Do any of you teach your gliders to swim? I'm asking because I know there are a lot of veteran owners here and respect your thoughts on the matter. I would like to be able to caution from your point of view if I'm correct. Thank you.

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#298877 - 05/27/07 07:49 AM Re: Teaching gliders to swim??? [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


This is definitely not something I would recommend that you try. Gliders can swim for short periods, but they do not like it and it is dangerous for them. The number one cause of death for gliders in captivity is drowning, usually in the toilet or other standing water they may find if they escape from their cage when their owner is not around or if they are allowed unsupervised time out of cage.

With animals, you can't really "teach" them to swim. They either know how instinctually or they don't. Humans can teach each other to swim because we can communicate well enough to say "move your arms like this and your legs like this" etc. but with animals they can't listen to instructions like that. With gliders, it's not really a matter of learning how so much as a matter of having the stamina to be able to do it for long periods of time when they can't get out of the water. Also, some gliders have been rescued from a fall in the toilet only to come down with pneumonia due to getting water in their lungs. worried

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#298878 - 05/27/07 07:51 AM Re: Teaching gliders to swim??? [Re: ]
glidrz5 Offline
Serious Glideritis

Registered: 06/13/01
Posts: 7297
Loc: Quincy, IL
Gliders can swim instinctively. However they cannot swim for very long without tiring. That is why falling into a toilet or bucket of water can be so deadly to them. They quickly become tired & since they are unable to climb out on the slick surfaces end up drowning.
_________________________
Chris
Illusion, Malcom, Isabell, Annabelle, Zach, Isis, Aly & Indy
AND Miss Emmy & Miss Chloe kitties

:rbridge: My Angels: You are always in my heart.

You've flown to the rainbow
and wait there for me
Someday I will join you
together to be



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#298898 - 05/27/07 09:20 AM Re: Teaching gliders to swim??? [Re: glidrz5]
Anonymous
Unregistered


I have my WSI, and am a certified lifeguard. I have taught many human children to swim. I was just wondering, why would you want to do that? I know, from experience, it is very difficult to teach humans to swim. I think it would be difficult and hard on the glider to "practice" swimming.

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#298899 - 05/27/07 09:21 AM Re: Teaching gliders to swim??? [Re: ]
glidergrl1513 Offline
Serious Glideritis

Registered: 12/21/03
Posts: 5725
Loc: Upstate NY
The idea behind it would probably be to increase their chances of survival if they ever were to fall into a toilet or something with standing water.

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#298906 - 05/27/07 09:38 AM Re: Teaching gliders to swim??? [Re: glidergrl1513]
MizValorie Offline
Glider Addict

Registered: 04/13/06
Posts: 2579
Loc: Sherman, Texas
Why does it wear them out so easily? Is it because their gliding membrane makes it more difficult to swim?
_________________________
Valorie and our 10 fur children

RIP Mary Kate

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#298922 - 05/27/07 10:20 AM Re: Teaching gliders to swim??? [Re: MizValorie]
Anonymous
Unregistered


I would definitely not experiment with gliders in water, since it's such a dangerous issue for them regardless. My educated *guess* would be that gliders have a tough time with the stamina to swim simply because it's a completely unnatural phenomena for them....in the wild they are arboreal and do not really spend much, if any time, on the ground, let alone in water bodies. There would be no natural function for swimming, and they would not have any real contact with a water body because they source their water from foods and precipitation remaining collected on trees, etc.

Again, this is just my thought.


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#299163 - 05/27/07 05:16 PM Re: Teaching gliders to swim??? [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Originally Posted By: crabbypatty1997
I have my WSI, and am a certified lifeguard. I have taught many human children to swim. I was just wondering, why would you want to do that? I know, from experience, it is very difficult to teach humans to swim. I think it would be difficult and hard on the glider to "practice" swimming.


Believe me I am not for it. I would never consider it nor did I think it was natural that a glider would swim in a body of water in the wild. However there is someone who is using swimming as FUN time for their glider and others are encouraging it. When someone posts something out of the ordinary I think it should be addressed not for ridicule but for safety and considerations they do not take into account. I try to research info and keep updated however I do not presume to be experienced enough to know every aspect and I rather go to the veterans in the glider community for assurance or advice. If veteran glider owners are not consulted nor speak up it only influences newbies esp. when some have no concept of the exotic and often are young nieve owners. I was very shocked that others would encourage this and never really seen it addressed. So I thought well just maybe others do this.???

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#299169 - 05/27/07 05:24 PM Re: Teaching gliders to swim??? [Re: ]
SugarBlossoms Offline
Serious Glideritis

Registered: 02/23/06
Posts: 5830
Loc: USA
Oh no!! Please let them know it is NOT natural and is VERY dangerous!!

The gliders will think they can get into ANY water such as a toilet, dog dish or sink and will be drowned!!!

No way! I spend a lot of time and thought into making SURE my gliders don't and can't get near ANY water of ANY amount except for their safe water bottles!
_________________________
Keeper of Handprints on my Heart, You left your Footprints on my soul.
My precious loves that left to quickly, Peanut, Katie
Isabella, Kiwi, Bonnie and Monroe.

Spread your wings and glide free of pain,
Until the day I see you again.

God speed my precious angels. I love you. Mama.

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#299172 - 05/27/07 05:27 PM Re: Teaching gliders to swim??? [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


I do not have a wealth of experience nor am I a veteran but teaching a sugar glider to swim is against anything I have ever read or been told. And believe me I have done tons of reading.

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#299193 - 05/27/07 06:13 PM Re: Teaching gliders to swim??? [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


"Fun time" for a glider would mean doing things that *are* fun for a glider...swimming is NOT one of those things. How about...gliding!? jump

I'm so glad you sought out more comprehensive information on why NOT to do this so that you can hopefully advocate a much safer playtime for these gliders. Please be sure to let the owner know that a) it's not safe, b) it's not natural, and c) it's likely to result in pneumonia or death at one point or another.

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#299217 - 05/27/07 07:17 PM Re: Teaching gliders to swim??? [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Originally Posted By: crabbypatty1997
I have taught many human children to swim.


You mean drown with style?

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#299236 - 05/27/07 07:49 PM Re: Teaching gliders to swim??? [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Uuummm Gliders have no webbing between their toes. Animals that were made to swim do. I wouldn't put them in the water on purpose it would cause stress and possible water inhalation.

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#299266 - 05/27/07 08:31 PM Re: Teaching gliders to swim??? [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


OOOOh now I have an excuse not to take a bath anymore. My toes are not webbed and it causes me undue stress. Seriously.... I new there was a reason I hated water!

Now if I could just find a good excuse for not eating spinach!

Joking aside - I don't think I would let my gliders try it. One good inhalation of water can drown an animal (even a person) without them being submerged.

I can't tell you what to do, but I would personally not feel safe about putting my Glider in water!

Just my 3 cents laugh

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#299386 - 05/27/07 10:49 PM Re: Teaching gliders to swim??? [Re: ]
hushpuppy Offline
Glider Slave

Registered: 01/31/01
Posts: 1640
Loc: Mims, Florida, USA
Haha, OK, I confess. It was me. I was the one who encouraged that person to teach their glider to swim. LOL

But it didn't quite go down that way. This person said that she had acclimated her glider to water when it was young, and now it actually enjoys swimming and water. So a lot of people gave some of the same reasons that you all have talked about hereÖ its unnatural, they hate water, water could get in their ears, itís stressful, and so on. So I responded with this:

I think this is interesting. We really don't know everything about gliders and some of what we do know we have learned by people being brave enough to try new things.

Once I knew a man who kept his gliders in an outside cage here in Florida. He told me that in the summer time he would run water on the cages and his gliders would come out and play in it. Now, I can't verify that because I don't keep mine outside.

But if you think about it, wild gliders get rained on. And I'm sure the rain helps keep them clean. They learn at an early age that rain is nothing to fear and if they want to eat on a night that it is raining, they just have to go out in it.

And this:

Are you asking me or XXXXX? If you are asking me I am not saying either. It's just that we all seem to have these pat answers that we never vary from. These are things that we were told and we just blindly pass them on to the next generation. But some of those answers will be obsolete at some time. And others will prove to be correct time and time again. All I am saying is we know that a glider WILL drown in a toilet or a bucket of water. Is that because the glider hates water? Or is it because the sides are too steep and too slick that they drown from exhaustion? And it doesn't seem natural for a glider to hate water. Maybe it is more likely that it is unnatural for them to have a fear of water. OK, this is getting deep. Pardon the pun. LOL

And finally this:

Maybe I am missing something but I don't see anyone being offensive or anyone being offended. This is the way people learn. Someone makes a statement and then people give their points of view. So if a newbie came here and read this post, they could see several sides and make an educated choice.

A few years ago, all coating that could be used on wood was considered taboo. After all, a glider could chew on the treated wood and die of poisoning. Then someone was brave enough to come along and said "hey what about shellac?" It was debated and scrutinized, and finally most realized the shellac was OK. Later, other wood coatings became known as safe. Now that doesn't mean that you can let your glider lick it off of a spoon. Right?

Ok, some have said that exposure to water is unnatural. And that it could be stressful. But then, nothing we do with our gliders is natural and unstressfull. Is it natural for a sleeping glider to be scooped up and pulled out of its nest? But most of us know that if we stick our hand inside the pouch and take that little critter out while they are young, they will not fear it when they are older. And even though it isnít natural, some gliders actually look forward to it.

Now as for most animals looking for shelter when it rains, I have to tell you a story. Two years ago during the hurricanes, gray squirrels showed up on my back porch looking for the feeder that I normally keep out there. I had moved the feeder inside because I was worried about it getting airborne and flying through a window. Ninety mph winds and pouring rain didnít stop the little beggars from show up. LOL So what does a squirrel mommy do in a situation like that? Well this squirrel mommy braved the wind and rain and took that feeder out for those hungry brats. What can I say? Iím a sucker for bushy tailed animals.


Hehe, I will try to behave myself over there and not cause so much trouble.



_________________________
Anita Rae
StealthWheels, MagnumWheels and more at Atticworx

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#299500 - 05/28/07 01:23 AM Re: Teaching gliders to swim??? [Re: hushpuppy]
Anonymous
Unregistered


I already explained my concern for input so I hope you understand. Actually I was NOT referring to one person. I was referring to a FEW as I mentioned who seem to encourage the idea of teaching or allowing the glider to swim.

The comparison I would use would be more like well gliders are meant to glide and certainly have the capability so tossing it around the room as I've seen on UTUBE or from a building would be more in line of their nature. I'm not sure... does that make sense? Hehe!

I do appreciate all the input.

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#299515 - 05/28/07 01:42 AM Re: Teaching gliders to swim??? [Re: ]
Kitkatt1216 Offline
Glider Slave

Registered: 10/28/06
Posts: 1763
Loc: Connecticut
Let me tell you gliders are HORRIBLE swimmers. See, one day Miss Kieko found her way into the bedroom where my boyfriend had left a bucket of water for watering plants, and then my little girl decided to jump in it. Luckily, I happened to walk into the bedroom, where I still can't figure out how she got, and find her just as her little head was about to go under. Gliders + water = death or sickness. And luckily for me, Miss Kieko only had a bit of a cold that she slept off peacefully in my bra. However, this showed me how horrible it could be, and I know swimming is not something gliders can do for any length of time.
_________________________
Katrina
Owned by Murphy and Peanut

**RIP My loves Amunet, MiaKoda, and Kieko**

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#299518 - 05/28/07 01:53 AM Re: Teaching gliders to swim??? [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


You know the glider's drowning in bodies of water they can't escape from isn't particularly unique.

Leave any land animal in a swimming pool, with no steps and they'll drown before too long.. It's not terribly uncommon even for ducks to drown this way.

Wild sugar gliders rarely if ever come in contact with bodies of water. However their land dwelling ancestors would have, and would have. They would also have the ability to swim if need be. When the sugar gliders became arboreal, it would make sense they still retained some of that ability.

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#299521 - 05/28/07 01:54 AM Re: Teaching gliders to swim??? [Re: Kitkatt1216]
Anonymous
Unregistered


we lost one to 3 inches of water in a watering can and cannot recommend strongly enough that swimming really isnt for gliders

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#299526 - 05/28/07 02:17 AM Re: Teaching gliders to swim??? [Re: ]
SugarBlossoms Offline
Serious Glideritis

Registered: 02/23/06
Posts: 5830
Loc: USA
What purpose would it ever serve to "teach" a glider to swim? ONE time under water and they can get pneumonia, and die from it.

Swim WHERE? In WHAT? WHY? Teaching them to swim won't save them from a toilet, bucket, sink or dog dish.

I don't even allow too deep of Leadbeater's in a dish in a cage that I have 4 gliders in. It's still a liquid. I use 4 different dishes and I use the loooong bird feeders for cages to insure nothing is deep. I check water bottles at least twice a day to make sure none are leaking and could a single drop of water up my babies' noses.

I'm sorry, but I don't see not one good single reason for attempting to teach a glider to swim.

They are gliders, climbers and foragers.

ALL my babies hide in their pouches BEFORE I even know it's going to rain. THAT tells me something too. They don't like water. Period. Turn on a faucet and watch how they get stressed out.
_________________________
Keeper of Handprints on my Heart, You left your Footprints on my soul.
My precious loves that left to quickly, Peanut, Katie
Isabella, Kiwi, Bonnie and Monroe.

Spread your wings and glide free of pain,
Until the day I see you again.

God speed my precious angels. I love you. Mama.

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#299665 - 05/28/07 10:32 AM Re: Teaching gliders to swim??? [Re: ]
snowmanda Offline
Glider Guardian

Registered: 11/06/06
Posts: 839
Loc: South Carolina
Nice post, Anita.

Very well spoken and even tempered. It cleary shows that we are in a never ending learning period of having gliders as our pets. Kudos to you.
_________________________

Amanda mlove
Jesus Lover <><
Wife to the most awesomest husband, JoJo
Our Zoo
Suggies

Maven & Soven+Hurley & Roxy
Mandy+Luke & Zechariah
Weimies
Zach & Lila
Beardie
Moto



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#299682 - 05/28/07 11:05 AM Re: Teaching gliders to swim??? [Re: snowmanda]
Anonymous
Unregistered


I think there is a big difference between foraging in the rain and swimming. It's true that most terrestrial animals can swim for a short time as a life-saving measure. I can think of a few primates that will jump from a branch into water, but gliders' bodies aren't well-designed for swimming as the patagium contributes nothing positive to the sleekness that swimming mammals share.

There are, of course, exceptions to every rule and I'm sure someone, somewhere has a glider that enjoys water. Just like some cats like water. . . .

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#299713 - 05/28/07 12:18 PM Re: Teaching gliders to swim??? [Re: ]
ValkyrieMome Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 01/13/07
Posts: 10983
Loc: Denton, TX
There was a post not too long ago about someone who showered with her glider. Her glider apparently loved the shower, and would play in and out of the spray.

This post made an impression on me because:
There HAS to be a reason that the number 1 death of gliders is drowning. I mean, if a glider gets out, they have the whole house to explore. *WHY* do they seem drawn to the watering can, the toilet, the bucket of water. (Didn't SanDiego Zoo loose all their gliders when someone left a bucket of water in the exhibit?) They are clearly fascinated by water! They aren't lemmings -- they don't commit mass suicide by drowning in the wild.

It is apparent from all the drownings, at least to me, that:
1) Gliders love water. And,
2) Gliders can't swim for beans!

Reading your post, Anita, about someone who sprayed the cages with water, and the gliders came out to play in the spray. That makes sense to me! It seems to back up my theories and observations. They seem fascinated by water! It has been proven to me over and over that these animals are NOT stupid. They don't jump into toilets and drown because they are mindless. They do it, I believe, because they like water! They just can't swim!!

Running water - the spraying hose, the shower, a gently running sink. I'm going to experiment with these things and see how my gliders react. No, I'm not going to teach them to swim. Especially not in the toilet. I'm not going to remove my drowning-prevention ladders from the toilets. But, I would like to find out more about this seemingly inate fascination with water!
_________________________
Alden
"Animals can communicate quite well. And they do. And generally speaking, they are ignored." Alice Walker


Mom to Valhalla; 6 cats; 1 macaw; 2 hedgehogs;
and very many great gliders!

(plus the 2 skin kids)
valkyriegliders.com

Kyrie, nothing will ever fill the hole you left in my heart.

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#299714 - 05/28/07 12:24 PM Re: Teaching gliders to swim??? [Re: hushpuppy]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Anita,

I really, really agree with and appreciate your entire perspective on the evolution of glider knowledge! I still do not support *swimming* as a specific consideration for glider activity, but I absolutely, wholeheartedly agree with (and have often in other words said myself) we can only grow with new knowledge. Big bravo, big thumbs up! laugh

In terms of swimming, I take this stance personally because swimming poses a *direct,* immediate danger that we have absolutely no means to monitor or control properly once set in motion. We do, however, have the means to avoid it entirely. The inhalation of one good swig of water, even if you take the glider out right away, could be enough to either drown a glider from the inside or cause pneumonia, both of which can be 100% avoided in this scenario by not experimenting with swimming. How many of us find this particular unnatural situation motivating and worth the risk? I am one who does not.

Because it is known (as many gutwrenching caregivers have shared here at GC and in other glider forums) that water can kill gliders outright in very shallow circumstances beyond the toilet bowl, I find no benefit to intentionally subjecting my gliders to a known potential cause of death.
This, to me, sets it apart from *other* areas of open minded and experimental caregiving for gliders.

Let's please move forward as a glider community with new ideas, fresh and healthy improvements, and fantastic problem solving all from a creative, forward-thinking standpoint. But let us not cut off our noses to spite our faces and move backwards with things we know pose a definite danger to the glider, all in the name of keeping an open mind. I'm about as open minded and forward thinking as they come (not just with gliders, but really, I push the limit on open minded in lots of ways...LOL), but there is that filter of wisdom and responsibility always in place. I have often been criticized for publicly sharing my thoughts and viewpoints that may NOT be the "popular" stance on a glider's way of life here in the U.S. but I provide my perspective anyhow, because of exactly what you stated, Anita: I want someone to see another perspective beyond the stale, frozen in place one, IF there is a good, intelligent alternate viewpoint. People cannot make informed choices if they have no idea a choice exists! laugh

Every good idea, including today's "proven" diets, cage contents, play and behavioral conduct, etc. for gliders was once nothing more than an idea in someone else's head! laugh This is true with everything in our world...not just gliders! So do remain open to ideas...after all, it would not be beneficial to gliders if we simply stopped changing and evolving their care, and 20 years from now, were no better off than today for them! But filter your ideas through a critically informed and responsible mindset that allows you to make healthy, wise, and beneficial choices whether they have been around for ten years, or just posed by a brilliant newbie ten minutes ago. laugh

Love,
Jen

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#299772 - 05/28/07 01:13 PM Re: Teaching gliders to swim??? [Re: ]
Mel2mdl Offline
Glider Addict

Registered: 07/20/06
Posts: 4212
Loc: Garland, TX
I am not going to put my gliders in water because it would stress me out as well as them. I don't bath my cat for the same reason. Yet - I know people who have cats that love water and will volunteer to jump in a pool or tub. I'm sure some gliders are the same - they like water. grin

It is nice that these discussions can take place without a lot of yelling and upset people smile .
_________________________
Molly, son & husband:

Chairman Meow
Oscar & Thomas
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Marcel, Dakota, Latte
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:grey:
Karl,Lenny,Jynxie,Chamille, Kee & Mr. Beans in my heart forever.
Teaching teenagers-part joy, part guerilla warfare! :rbridge:

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#299811 - 05/28/07 02:15 PM Re: Teaching gliders to swim??? [Re: Mel2mdl]
JayAndDiana Offline
Glider Slave

Registered: 09/24/06
Posts: 1675
Loc: NJ
This is a very interesting post. I too have read the horrible stories about suggies and water, as well as their seeming interest in water(the girl and shower suggie). My cat is one of the few who loves water! He loves to play in the sink, used to chill in the shower while I was in it and even jumped in the tub with me. But, Boots is a maine coon and that breed has a fascitation with water..

While the suggies may play in the sink licking at the faucet- I would never fill it to let them swim.. they have little lungs and just an inhale and trouble is bound to be right around the corner one way or another. That's just me but, I'd be interested in what you find, Val..
_________________________
~Diana: mom to Travis (10/24/08)
4 suggies
1 Big ol' Maine coon Cat: Boots
75 gal salt water reeftank

gangel Gizzy

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#299818 - 05/28/07 02:26 PM Re: Teaching gliders to swim??? [Re: JayAndDiana]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Val, since we can't nail down exactly what motivates the gliders or *why* they do things they do, I realize my thoughts here will remain only a theory. But my theory is that water is a survival source for all animals, and that they will approach a water source like a toilet or sitting dishes because in capativity, water = food. In their cages, or while supervised, theoretically water does not pose a threat to *our* gliders through *their* eyes because they don't know it as such. I would imagine that just as I wake up wanting a drink of water or will want drinks periodically throughout activity, gliders may be hoping to drink, or groom, not drown (obviously).

Human children often have a fascination with water, too...but can drown in a pool very easily! I would say that a child might have a fascination with the brilliant, intriguing appearance of fire, or a shiny gun, or a rabid dog wandering the streets, but we don't ever allow them to play with it just because they seem "fascinated." It's just my feeling that we have a personal responsibility to do some of the critical thinking FOR our captive gliders as their caregivers. In the wild, they choose their habitat and can opt to avoid some predators and dangers. I would imagine that a toilet or sitting dishwater does not register as any instinctual danger, and that it is tragic when these sweet animals die this way.

I know you are a wonderful, caring, and responsible suggie owner, Val, so I do not worry that you would personally do anything to harm your gliders! I make these statements because I cannot possibly know how *everyone* who comes across this post might read it, so I only hope to outline my thoughts as a "what if" in contrast. I definitely appreciate your viewpoint and it very well could be that like some cats, some gliders like water! smile I'd go with Dee on this as well and say that rainwater, even a heavy storm, is not the same as sitting deep water. I think a shower, or sprinkle on cage, is quite a different matter than "teaching a glider to swim" for "fun" and I hope others will separate the differences between these as well.


Edited by PocketFaeries (05/28/07 02:35 PM)
Edit Reason: clarification :)

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#299993 - 05/28/07 05:58 PM Re: Teaching gliders to swim??? [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


In my opion I think that all animals that require water to survive have a large intrest in water it is bread in jsut as sleeping up high and making certain noises and biteing when they are scared (I am basing my thought of of ) I have two labs they are suposto like water i have one that loves it and one that hates it but if you leave standing water in a bucket, toilet, sink, or jsut the gutter outside they will do anything that is in there means to get to it. They can smell it and they know that they have to have it to survive that is my opion as to whey gliders have a facination with water.. I think that they are drawn to it because they want a drink not to go swimming. just my opion though.

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#300006 - 05/28/07 06:09 PM Re: Teaching gliders to swim??? [Re: ValkyrieMome]
SugarBlossoms Offline
Serious Glideritis

Registered: 02/23/06
Posts: 5830
Loc: USA
Originally Posted By: ValkyrieMome
They are clearly fascinated by water! They aren't lemmings -- they don't commit mass suicide by drowning in the wild.



I have 2 theories to this.

1. Gliders get thirsty when they get lost or loose and "smell" the water in a toilet, bucket, etc.

2. While out running around loose, they leap, glide and fall into the toilet, bucket, etc.


I was washing cages down and had a bucket of water in the room one day. I had one of my gliders on my shoulder. He decided to jump to his cage and MISSED...he would have landed, you guessed it right into that bucket if I hadn't caught him literally mid air!

I will never have a glider out again while doing cages nor will I use a bucket of water.
_________________________
Keeper of Handprints on my Heart, You left your Footprints on my soul.
My precious loves that left to quickly, Peanut, Katie
Isabella, Kiwi, Bonnie and Monroe.

Spread your wings and glide free of pain,
Until the day I see you again.

God speed my precious angels. I love you. Mama.

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#300128 - 05/28/07 08:48 PM Re: Teaching gliders to swim??? [Re: SugarBlossoms]
Gliderbuff Offline
Glider Slave

Registered: 05/07/02
Posts: 1689
Loc: most beautiful place on earth
Please let me say at this point that the research regarding this topic is not one that is just a tamer version of mass hysteria.

This topic has been observed in SO many cases from SO many people. The facts have been witnessed by some of our oldest and most informed people in the glider community and is not groundless. While there is a lot to be said for bucking senseless fears, this is not one of them.

I for one am all for pushing the envelope when it can be used to make things better. However, with the death rate for gliders being so high anyway, taking no/few steps for a problem so pervasive and widely witnessed would not only be negligent, but also useless in learning and community improvement.

I am not trying to flame anyone, confuse or belabor the points stated here, I just feel that this idea has already been so frequently been an issue that I cannot say strongly enough that this is NOT something we should be gambling our glider's lives with.

I admire everyone for being able to discuss this as adults even though it can stir up so much emotion. I hope our discussions in the future all go about in this type of framework.

Kudos.

PS I just thought about this... the water they encounter in the wild is probably on leaves or in tree hollows. These are RARELY more than one inch deep. I myself have never seen a three inch deep leaf.. However, in our homes, we have bodies of water that are MUCH bigger and deeper. Also, there are MUCH more glider deaths in the wild than at home domesticated I feel because we can monitor more of the unknowns.

Also, as my dad is fond of saying, Don't be so open-minded that your brain falls out!!!


Edited by Gliderbuff (05/28/07 09:08 PM)
Edit Reason: more ideas
_________________________
Live Deliberately...
Initiate Change...

I believe in argument for the purpose of individual revelation.

Be overly kind, for everyone you meet is in some kind of battle.

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