Sugar Glider Community Calendar

Please click here to see larger view
Articles
More coming soon!!
Today's Birthdays
No Birthdays
Featured Member
Registered: 10/07/14
Posts: 2235
Last 10 Posts
My Caramel Gliders anything I need to know about neutering?
by AlyCatz
7 minutes 36 seconds ago
New odor issue??
by AlyCatz
12 minutes 4 seconds ago
Gliders of the Round Table 5
by Feather
59 minutes 55 seconds ago
Dear Crabby
by Feather
Today at 05:31 PM
Is a glider right for me?
by Feather
Today at 05:21 PM
Three weeks in, first timer, questions .
by Feather
Today at 05:12 PM
RIP Spencer
by KarenE
Today at 09:41 AM
Blindnedd in red eye gliders
by Srlb
12/10/17 10:54 AM
Lighter Gliders??
by AlyCatz
12/09/17 10:14 PM
Bing, bing, bing.... It's
by Terry
12/09/17 07:13 PM
Google+

Facebook
Join Us On Facebook
Page 1 of 2 1 2 >
Topic Options
#30118 - 11/22/04 09:09 PM Questioning Breeding of rare gliders???
Anonymous
Unregistered


I want as much info as i can get on genes and how they work.I want to know how you can tell what gene they carry.what each gene means.I also want to know what rules apply to breeding as in (mother & son) or (brother & sister) or (father & daughter)Blood line combos that are safe or not.Just for kicks id like to know if there is a certian marking list that determines what makes a rare a rare????? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/ooo.gif" alt="" />

Top
#30119 - 11/22/04 09:17 PM Re: Questioning Breeding of rare gliders??? [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


There are a few of rare suggies and do not ever breed mother son or brother sister or dad and baby it can cause mental retardation in the babies and it is just like you having babie w/ a family member sorry but i cant help you with how the genes work i would like to know also!!

Top
#30120 - 11/22/04 09:19 PM Re: Questioning Breeding of rare gliders??? [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Also if you go here then you can see the different kinds of rare suggies http://www.sugarglidercolors.com/

Top
#30121 - 11/22/04 09:27 PM Re: Questioning Breeding of rare gliders??? [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


I know the very serious breeders on this board try and keep track of the blood lines in the "rares" as well as in the greys to avoid inbreeding and keeping the lines as pure and healthy as possible.

the genetics of color breeding are very complex and as far as I'm aware the genes have not acutally been identified and thus it is still in the early stages...

Mengo gave you a very good site that will show you the color variations currently known; but as yet there is not strict universal set of criteria as far as I know (aside from the obvious ones like the white tip and ring tail)

I'm sure the breeders will be along with more exact information (well as exact as we can currently be sure of)

if ya can't tell I'm a genetics and biology nut so this is all very interesting to me and even a basic knowledge doesn't help much in understanding

let me be more exact in what I mentioned in your other thread
het = heterozygus meaning have 2 different copies of a gene and will only express that gene if it is dominant
homo = homozygous and thus it has 2 copies of the same gene and will obviously express that one gene

Top
#30122 - 11/22/04 10:34 PM Re: Questioning Breeding of rare gliders??? [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


[:"blue"] The questions you are asking cannot be addressed in a paragraph or two. I suggest you pick up a book on genetics at your local public library. There have been a number of threads on basic genetics posted here.....two are currently active. Suggest you try GC search function and check out some of the prior threads.....you should discussions that address most of your questions. [/]

Top
#30123 - 11/22/04 10:36 PM Re: Questioning Breeding of rare gliders??? [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Ok so far i have some idea on this but im a slow getter at big words.Heck i cant even say heterozygous lol.Ok i understand the diferent colors.What i dont get is when other words are added like co-domanate to heterozygous.I guess im just having a hard time to understand how u tell what a glider has.Let me put out a example............I have got a glider that i was told carries the blone gene(FEMALE).I have this glider in a cage with a regular grey glider(MALE).I was told the blone can produce a joey blone without a second blone glider of the same gene.So what does this make my glider? What will my joey be also? A=(domanate gene) B=(co-domanate gene) C=(heterozygous) D=(homozygous). This is very confusing to figure out.Ill be glad to get it tho.Thanks for info so far :}

Top
#30124 - 11/22/04 10:41 PM Re: Questioning Breeding of rare gliders??? [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Well, I can tell you a little something...

Firstly, there is little information about genetics in regards to sugar gliders and the majority of that information has come from actual breedings vs. genetic research.

Most breeders of color variations keep very good records of their variations and try to out breed as much as possible. The generally accepted minimum removal for breeding is 3 generations. That would be like breeding a great uncle to a niece or other things of the sort.

There are only a few variations that actually require any level of inbreeding to be maintained and they are leucistic/co-dominant leucistic (white mosaics and things of the sort), white faced blonde, and albino.

I don't know how much I really helped, but at least it's something...

Top
#30125 - 11/22/04 10:49 PM Re: Questioning Breeding of rare gliders??? [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />
A=(domanate gene) B=(co-domanate gene) C=(heterozygous) D=(homozygous)

<hr /></blockquote><font class="post">

Whoa there, these words all mean very different things. Vocab time...

Dominant: This means that the gene is being expressed. Dominant genes can be paired with a recessive gene and still be expressed. That means that an animal with the trait can be either heterozygous or homozygous.

Recessive: This means that the gene is being carried, but not expressed. Aminals that carry genes, but do not express them are hets (heterozygous) for a trait.

Homozygous: Genes come in pairs. If an animal is homozygous, it has 2 matching genes in a pair.

Heterozygous: This means that an animal is carrying 2 different genes. Usually the dominant one is expressed, but there is the possibility of both genes being expressed, that's co-dominance.

Co-Dominance: When an animal carries 2 different genes and shows characteristics of both genes.

Top
#30126 - 11/22/04 10:52 PM Re: Questioning Breeding of rare gliders??? [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


firt; co-dominant = both dominant genes are expressed together... example (not necessarily real) a mouse w/ both the black and white gene would be a grey coated mouse
in order to be codominant the animal would have to be heterozygous for the 2 dominant genes (het-ero-zy-gus)

if that is possible (to get a blonde joey from 1 blonde parent and 1 grey parent) then your female would have to be homozygous w/ the blonde gene... this would make the joey heterozygous for the blonde gene... but this would mean the blonde gene would be dominant which I don't know if it is...

like Randy said - it's hard to explain in a short amt of words and I also would suggest getting a book on genetics if you're really interested in it (it would make understanding what I just said much easier!)

good luck w/ getting this down... it's been pointed out many times that the color genetics info we do have is from breeders and not research so it is hard to say anything for sure

Top
#30127 - 11/22/04 10:56 PM Re: Questioning Breeding of rare gliders??? [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


hmmm - ne1 know... the example I gave for co-dominance... the grey mouse... that would be more blending than codominance wouldn't it?

Top
#30128 - 11/22/04 11:14 PM Re: Questioning Breeding of rare gliders??? [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />
if that is possible (to get a blonde joey from 1 blonde parent and 1 grey parent) then your female would have to be homozygous w/ the blonde gene... this would make the joey heterozygous for the blonde gene... but this would mean the blonde gene would be dominant which I don't know if it is...

<hr /></blockquote><font class="post">
When a WFB is paired with a normal, WFB's are produced the majority of the time (on average about 65%). This leads me to believe that the WFB gene is dominant and not co-dominant or recessive...

Top
#30129 - 11/23/04 12:32 AM Re: Questioning Breeding of rare gliders??? [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


interesting, Lenya... thanks for sharing I had always assumed it was recessive! oops!

Top
#30130 - 11/23/04 07:11 AM Re: Questioning Breeding of rare gliders??? [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


A lot of breeders will most likely disagree with me saying that the WFB gene is dominant, but lets just look at the math...

If you have a WFB from a WFB and a gray parent and you breed it to another normal gray, 2-3 out of 4 times, you will get a WFB. If you were to use a punets (sp) square, you would see that statistically, you shouldn't get any WFB's if the gene was recessive. And actually, if was a normal "dominant" gene, you should only be getting about 1/2 WFB's, so I think the gene is actually very dominant.

Also, if you breed two het for WFB's (normal gray gliders that had a WFB parent) you can produce a WFB. In theory, there is a one in four chance of that, but honestly, it's very rare for a recessive gene to pop up like that. We don't have any real numbers on the frequency of WFB's produced from het pairs, but if we did I would guess that they would be producing WFB's more than just 25% of the time (thought that is just a guess).

Top
#30131 - 11/23/04 04:00 PM Re: Questioning Breeding of rare gliders??? [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


[:"blue"] I haven't figured out this co-dominance/partial dominance thing, yet, so someone help me if my thinking is off track here. [/]



</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />
.....if that is possible (to get a blonde joey from 1 blonde parent and 1 grey parent) then your female would have to be [:"red"] homozygous[/] w/ the blonde gene... this would make the joey heterozygous for the blonde gene... but this would mean the blonde gene would be dominant which I don't know if it is.....

<hr /></blockquote><font class="post">
[:"blue"] I'm not sure I fully follow the above; but couldn't the female also be a het and still produce a blonde joey?? [/]



</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />
.....When a WFB is paired with a normal, WFB's are produced the majority of the time (on average about 65%). This leads me to believe that the WFB gene is dominant and not co-dominant or recessive...

<hr /></blockquote><font class="post">
[:"blue"] I have a different interpretation of the above information. If the WF allele is dominant, then you don't know if the WF you are breeding is heterozygous or homozygous. Therefore to predict the result of the pairing you have to do a Prunnett square for each possibility and average the results. What you get is the following:



......N....N

W..WN..WN

N...NN..NN

Whiteface(het) to normal= 50% WF(hets)


......N....N

W..WN..WN

W..WN..WN

Whiteface(homozygote) to normal= 100% WF(hets)

Average of 50% and 100% is 75%. Since Leyna says these pairings result in 65% WF, it makes me think there may be a
co-dominance/partial dominance factor working here??
<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/nixweiss.gif" alt="" />
[/]

Top
#30132 - 11/23/04 04:38 PM Re: Questioning Breeding of rare gliders??? [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


she could also be heterozygous... but that would make getting a blonde baby less likely than if she were homo for that gene...
my guess as to the 65% vs the 75% would be error due to nothing in biology being perfect... at least not perfect in the manner that would make it much easier to understand... each time the pair breeds would give a 75% chance of a WF; it starts again at a 75% chance of WF for the next time the pair gets preggers so maybe Lenya's number comes from not knowing the gene ratios but rather experience...

Top
#30133 - 11/23/04 05:08 PM Re: Questioning Breeding of rare gliders??? [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />
.....If you have a WFB from a WFB and a gray parent and you breed it to another normal gray, 2-3 out of 4 times, you will get a WFB. If you were to use a punets (sp) square, you would see that statistically, you shouldn't get any WFB's if the gene was recessive. And actually, if was a normal "dominant" gene, you should only be getting about 1/2 WFB's, so I think the gene is actually very dominant......

<hr /></blockquote><font class="post">
[:"blue"] Seems to me that there is a problem here. If I am correct, the parameters of this pairing mean that we are breeding a WF het to a normal. Lenya is correct that a Prunnett square predicts we will get 50% WF offspring....and even if the WF gene is extra, super-duper dominant, you will still only get 50% WF offspring!! If significantly more than 50% WF joeys are being produced, there must be another factor at work that we are not recognizing. [/]


</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />
.....Also, if you breed two het for WFB's (normal gray gliders that had a WFB parent) you can produce a WFB. In theory, there is a one in four chance of that, but honestly, it's very rare for a recessive gene to pop up like that. We don't have any real numbers on the frequency of WFB's produced from het pairs, but if we did I would guess that they would be producing WFB's more than just 25% of the time (thought that is just a guess).

<hr /></blockquote><font class="post">
[:"blue"] Same comment as above.....the math is correct. If significantly more than 25% WF offspring were to be produced, then there is something else going on that we are not recognizing. The math just won't allow it!!! [/]

Top
#30134 - 11/23/04 06:37 PM Re: Questioning Breeding of rare gliders??? [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Remember that the Punnett square (as all probability) is a long term relative frequency. It is possible to have multiple births all of one type which would skew your local percentages, but the key is the 'long term'. (This reminds me of a joke concerning the Law of Large Numbers about a mathematically challenged couple that knew that baby #6 HAD to be male since the other 5 had been female and the "odds" were on their side... Nope!)

Top
#30135 - 11/23/04 06:49 PM Re: Questioning Breeding of rare gliders??? [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />
.....as to the 65% vs the 75% would be error due to nothing in biology being perfect.....Lenya's number comes from not knowing the gene ratios but rather experience.....

<hr /></blockquote><font class="post">

[:"blue"] There is no doubt that Mother Nature is not perfect; but my gut feeling is that a 2 or 3 or 4% variation might be expected; but not 10%!! I think you are correct that Lenya's figures are from actual breeding results rather than from theoretical calculations. Problem is that one must have a large sample of breeding results to be sure the figures are accurate......fancy way of saying basing figures on 20 breedings won't be as accurate as basing figures on 200 breedings. [/]

Top
#30136 - 11/23/04 06:55 PM Re: Questioning Breeding of rare gliders??? [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


I understand what you're saying and completely agree Randy! I wish we had the numbers to figure this out exactly... or better yet have all the genes isolated and understood (which are recessive, dominant, co-dominant, etc)
I also see what you're saying a/b perhaps there being more than one gene at work here which has really got to be the case... I believe that is the hardest part of any breeding program that concentrates on color since there are always (well, I suppose there must be exceptions...) more than one gene affecting the ending result of color... making punnet squares very challenging if not useless...

genetics is soo much easier to talk a/b than to try and type a/b... lol

Top
#30137 - 11/23/04 09:36 PM Re: Questioning Breeding of rare gliders??? [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />
When a WFB is paired with a normal, WFB's are produced the majority of the time (on average about 65%). This leads me to believe that the WFB gene is dominant and not co-dominant or recessive...

<hr /></blockquote><font class="post">

How many breedings is this based on Lenya? From the data it leads me to believe that their is an issue of co-dominance (as Randy and Faery were saying) or it could be from a sex-related gene (ie. more females or males that are WFB). Is there one sex that seems to be more prominant in WFB or are the males and females about equal? If there isn't one sex that is more WFB then that would rule out a sex-related gene.

If this data wasn't based on many breedings then there may not be an issue of co-dominance or sex-related genes, the WFB gene may be dominant, but just not have enough data to produce Mendel's ratios.

Wow, love reading about this stuff! Lucky for me I just took a genetics class and statistics class last semester!! lol

Top
#30138 - 11/23/04 11:17 PM Re: Questioning Breeding of rare gliders??? [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Firstly, the figure of 65% is not something I came up with. It is figure that I believe Judie originally post and is a combined average of her breedings, which she found to corresponded with other breeders results.

Also, Randy, even when genes are co-dominant, there is usually a gene that is expressed more. Genes can be more and less dominant and it's a concept the people in the glider world seem to over look. The punets square is a genetic outline, but it is not law. Red hair in humans for example. It totally breaks patterns set up by punets squares because red hair is actually caused by a different gene than other hair colors. I think you are trying to over simplify genetics by using punets squares... In stead, records need to be kept and averages calculated. I think we'll get a better idea of what's going on geneticly than the information that's being tossed together right now.

Top
#30139 - 11/23/04 11:46 PM Re: Questioning Breeding of rare gliders??? [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Wow i am impressed with all the info im getting.But can some one please explain punets squares in simple terms.I think any breeder that does lots of breeding should have ideas about this topic.Im yet to hear but one person that knows a breeder or so it sounds.If there is a breeder on this site that has done alot of testing i would like to hear from them.As everyone here feels all different findings in breeding is quite interesting.I know im like a kid in a candy store when i get to see my new born joey(s) for the first time.To check and see if all is normal.I know the first time my (supposed to be blone)(Roxanne)female breeds i will be very curious.I will be very disappointed if i was informed wrongly and she is just a regular.For the glider(Roxanne) im happy just the same to have her tho and wouldnt trade her for anything.

Well anyone with more insight on this subject please add to the discussion.I am learning more and more.Thanks to all of you.


Most pleased<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frostyangel.gif" alt="" /><img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frostyangel.gif" alt="" />:Steeltaz

Top
#30140 - 11/24/04 12:59 AM Re: Questioning Breeding of rare gliders??? [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


[:"blue"] Lenya:

It appears that you have totally misunderstood my message. [/]

</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />
.....Genes can be more and less dominant and it's a concept the people in the glider world seem to over look.....

<hr /></blockquote><font class="post">
[:"blue"] I couldn't agree more. Go back and look at some of my earlier posts and you will see that I have been saying something similar almost from day "1". Perhaps it was not as explicit as it could have been; but this is from a another post of mine in this thread. ".....you will still only get 50% WF offspring!! If significantly more than 50% WF joeys are being produced, [/] [:"red"] there must be another factor at work that we are not recognizing......" [/]


</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />
.....The punets square is a genetic outline, but it is not law......

<hr /></blockquote><font class="post">
[:"blue"] Sorry; but I can't agree with this premise. Punnett squares work just fine if you make the proper assumptions and set them up correctly. Trouble is we don't always know enough to set them up properly. [/]


</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />
.....I think you are trying to over simplify genetics by using punets squares... In stead, records need to be kept and averages calculated. I think we'll get a better idea of what's going on geneticly than the information that's being tossed together right now......

<hr /></blockquote><font class="post">
[:"blue"] I agree that we need much more breeding data than what is now available. On the other hand, I'm not trying to simplify or prove anything by using Punnett squares. Fact is that until a few months ago I didn't even know what they were. There were posts on GC by others who made statements about glider breeding/genetics that didn't make any sense to me and Punnett squares were used to support those positions. So I got some books from the library and took a short course in genetics. I discovered there was bad information, misinformation and confused information being posted on GC on a fairly regular basis. Since then, my focus has been to point out the bad information and clarify or seek clarification of the remainder. There is a big difference between what we know, what we think we know and what we are totally guessing at and the distinctions between those categories of information have not been well defined in the past. [/]

Top
#30141 - 11/24/04 01:04 AM Re: Questioning Breeding of rare gliders??? [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


This should help you with Punnett squares.

http://www.borg.com/~lubehawk/psquare.htm

Top
#30142 - 11/24/04 08:03 AM Re: Questioning Breeding of rare gliders??? [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />
</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />

.....The punets square is a genetic outline, but it is not law......

<hr /></blockquote><font class="post">


Sorry; but I can't agree with this premise. Punnett squares work just fine if you make the proper assumptions and set them up correctly. Trouble is we don't always know enough to set them up properly.

<hr /></blockquote><font class="post">

Randy, that wasn't just some random statement, that is a fact. Punnett's squares are intended to be solely used as genetic outlines to predict probability. They are not law and results can vary greatly from what is predicted. I took a class on genetics several years ago and that was one of the things that was really forced upon us. My teach used to say, "You can not predict the future, but you can get an idea of what the future might bring."

Top
#30143 - 11/24/04 11:05 AM Re: Questioning Breeding of rare gliders??? [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


[:"blue"] I never said it was a random statement.....only that I disagreed with it!! I would hazard a guess that the "teach" who offered that idea was a biologist without much background in math. [/]

Top
#30144 - 11/24/04 11:12 PM Re: Questioning Breeding of rare gliders??? [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Well thanks to all for thier help i feel i have a much better understanding of how breeding works with gliders.Hopefully i get plenty of chances to test some theorys.Thanks again all.

Top
#30145 - 11/24/04 11:37 PM Re: Questioning Breeding of rare gliders??? [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />
I never said it was a random statement.....only that I disagreed with it!! I would hazard a guess that the "teach" who offered that idea was a biologist without much background in math.

<hr /></blockquote><font class="post">
Randy, just because you don't agree with something somebody says doesn't mean you have to try to degrade that person. My genetics teacher was actually one of my favorite teachers and I don't take all to kindly to your "guess" as I find it not only offensive to him, but also to me. This teach was actually very intelligent and also taught upper level math classes and physics. The genetics class I was in was actually a math class (I got math credit for it, not science) and a lot of what we did in class was calculate probability (using Punnett's squares)...

Top
#30146 - 11/24/04 11:42 PM Re: Questioning Breeding of rare gliders??? [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/offtopic.gif" alt="" /> but i understand what every body is saying where do that punet square and everthing and i know all about the reccive traits so i get it. Sorry but I am learning something lol.

Top
#30147 - 11/25/04 07:12 AM Re: Questioning Breeding of rare gliders??? [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


If we didnt learn then this place would be a waste tounge
Im glad to have the ability to learn as much as i can.I have been raising gliders for two years.I knew i was missing some extra ideas and now i feel i can produce a even better joey.I understand genetics for the most part BUT,I feel (understand this is an opinion Not fact)a very tame or well bonded glider produces less agressive gliders.I dont have a giant breed group but what i do have i give tons of time to joeys for someone else to have a easier time then i did.My glider came from big breeder that dont have time to spend with each glider.Anyways good luck in your search for helpful info (split's mom) i shall keep doing the same :}

Top
Page 1 of 2 1 2 >




Moderator:  Feather, KarenE, Ladymagyver, Philwojo 
Sugar Glider Help Page



Please click above to see how you can help!!

Moon
CURRENT MOON
Who's Online
5 registered (AlyCatz, Claralice, Lisa11, kidqwik, 1 invisible), 16 Guests and 19 Spiders online.
Key: Owner, Admin, Mod
Newest Members
SarasotaSugs, Lisa11, JessicaSound, MRK, Ronin
6448 Registered Users
Forum Stats
31 posts in the last 24hrs
6448 Members
134 Forums
8988 Topics
148642 Posts

Max Online: 478 @ 07/15/07 01:24 AM
Last 10 New Topics
My Caramel Gliders anything I need to know about neutering?
by Claralice
Today at 04:14 PM
Three weeks in, first timer, questions .
by Lisa11
Today at 04:42 AM
RIP Spencer
by Cora
Yesterday at 04:58 PM
New odor issue??
by AlyCatz
12/08/17 05:37 PM
Lighter Gliders??
by AlyCatz
12/08/17 05:25 PM
Bing, bing, bing.... It's
by Terry
12/08/17 09:33 AM
Blindnedd in red eye gliders
by mechnut450
12/08/17 06:28 AM
Happy Birthday Nejwig
by Feather
12/07/17 05:33 PM
Been Distracted...
by Ladymagyver
12/06/17 07:25 PM
Introductions - two male Joey's meeting 8 year old recently single
by 3dymondsgliders
12/05/17 03:57 PM
(Views)Popular Topics
I just found a lump on Timmy's chest--HELP! 20204931
Spencer needs your prayers/good thoughts 12468329
TEXAS 658411
Pitbull biter needs advice/help 606896
OHIO 519038
Member Titles 460611
MISSOURI 394148
HOLY CRACKERS AMERICAN HPW's 371695
OKLAHOMA 353957
URGENT - Genetic Flaw discovered 352322
Supported Browser
This site was tested and is best viewed in Google Chrome & Mozilla FireFox



Firefox 3

Download your copy today!!!


GliderCENTRAL
©1998-2017