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#301884 - 05/30/07 08:30 PM Neutering SM
Anonymous
Unregistered


Its 730pm and I just got home from the vet and I don't have time yet to cry. I went in today for a pre-surgery consultation at 4:45pm with Dr. Hedges at Brighton Veterinary Hospital and he had someone cancel on him so I was given the option of proceeding with the neuter tonight. I chose to go ahead since everything seemed alright and he had said he has been successful with no problems so far. He had just done a glider neuter on Monday successfully. Another member on this board had just gone to him as well with no problems. So at 5:30pm he took my two little babies--Cooper and "Baby Boy" (he's still taking his time letting me know what the correct name is for him)--into the back room to be neutered. I've had bad experiences with iso before in one of my hedgehogs so I was on pins and needles the entire time they were gone from me--listening for any usual sound to carry towards me. Finally, at 6pm, Dr. Hedges comes out and says that the surgery went fine, but that my baby boy is chewing at the incision. He was going to go get a sedative and mix it with the torb and told me to use a metal instrament to keep my little guy away from his incision. Baby Boy kept going for it and I realized it was like trying to bail out a boat using a thimble so I took him out so he could be on me. At that point he calmed down, but was still SMing. Only now Cooper joined in as well. The vet did remove the poms, but I just felt like it was a method he had had success with and that nothing bad would happen to me and the ones I love. I waited in one of the exam rooms with 2(!!!) gliders trying to self mutilate and it seemed that no sooner would I take care of one and get them to stop than the other one would start up. He finally came in and we gave them torb with a sedative (I don't remember it off the top of my head). As it started to take effect (625pm), I asked about e-collars for the two of them. He said they had bird collars, but that he was worried about using them. I told him they were getting e-collars either way--the only issue was if I got them from him with his help putting them on or if I made my own. So he cut them down and both my beautiful SM boys currently have e-collars on them and are doped out of their sweet little minds. I've got a huge rubbermaid tub with polar fleece down in it to keep them in for the night. I don't work today so its an all-nighter watching them and we'll see where things are at tomorrow. Baby Boy just tried getting at his incision and he can't so the e-collars are doing their jobs.

Questions...

1). Will the cut-down bird collars made into glider e-collars work or do I need to make a traditional e-collar with moleskin?

2). Should I be syringing liquid for these guys? If so, what?

3). If it has only been 90 minutes since they got torb, should they be feeling the pain yet? I'll have to get back on later and say what the sedative was.

4). I haven't truly had a good chance to examine how extensive the self mutilation was. Are there any pictures out there to help me get an idea how long my little boys are going to be looking like satellite dishes?

5). What would make both of my boys SM?

6). Any other help would be good. And I will be reading all the way through the other recent thread dealing with this.

OK, little boy is getting more acrobatic and can get to his incision--or at least too close for comfort. So I will be making at least one new one. Dr. Hedges is 15 miles away, but he is reachable 24 hours a day. As well, there is an emergency vet clinic within 3 miles of where I live so I know that if need be I have someone to reach. I have friends coming over to spend the night so someone will be here if a run to the store for materials needs to be made. Also, I lied. I have been crying like a baby while typing this. But now its back to the fight. Between the three of us, we're too stubborn to let this get us.

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#301889 - 05/30/07 08:38 PM Re: Neutering SM [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Forgot to mention that I'll have access all night to both my cell phone and the computer.

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#301892 - 05/30/07 08:40 PM Re: Neutering SM [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Ok, First relax and breathe. I just went through the same thing with my lil boy. You're going to need to put them in a smaller cage if you can (like a travel cage). No toys or anything that they can get stuck on. You'll also have to get a bird feeder that attaches to the outside of the cage and sort of has a trough that goes through the bars. Feed them ensure mixed with yogurt. Basically you'll have them off their diet but you have to feed them something and it is difficult for them to eat because they cant use their hands. But they can lick this liquid from the feeder. They'll probably have to learn, so you may need to show them where it is and they'll get the idea. I also hand fed Aidan some fruits that I cut up very tiny and mealies. But if you try to hand feed you'll be up all night! So get that bird feeder. I was up all night the first night- it gets easier believe me. You'll be fine. Maybe Bourbon or Dancing will see this post and be able to help you further....they were of great help to me!


As far as what makes them SM......they feel pain and freak out. Their reaction is to get rid of the pain. Even though they are just making it worse, they think they are getting rid of it by ripping, biting etc.

Did the vet give you antibiotics?? You'll prob need them- keep an eye on the wounds closely. Any swelling, redness, oozing etc take them back and get some antibiotics!

I also have small bird e- collars that have snaps on them. They are padded though. And have worked great so far. He only slipped out of it when he was struggling with me trying to give him meds.

Anyway, just relax you'll do fine. I was a nervous wreck too, but Aidan is doing great!

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#301896 - 05/30/07 08:43 PM Re: Neutering SM [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


hugs to both you and your boys - I would definitely make e-collars with the moleskin to be safe. I would also guess pain meds no more than every 4 hours - but follow the dr's orders - there was a post recently about a spray or gel that you can put on them to distract them from their incission - i will see if I can find it for you - for food and water while in e-collars use the bird feeders that go on the outside of the cage and have the lip that fits inbetween the bars - I am sure you will get more advice from someone who has been through this shortly


Edited by TracyLynn (05/30/07 08:45 PM)

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#301897 - 05/30/07 08:43 PM Re: Neutering SM [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


This was my thread when I was [censored] out. If you scroll down a bit on the first page there is a pic of the feeding tube I was talking about. http://sugarglider.net/ubbthreads/ubbthr...true#Post300123

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#301926 - 05/30/07 09:07 PM Re: Neutering SM [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


iluvsuggies17, yup I read everything from yours. Just got off the phone with Dr. Hedges' office about whether he can call a closer vet to allow me to get the collasate and the other one ending in "norphine" from them rather than be gone for 40 minutes. He's out of the office but will call back later. I should (and hopefully will remember) ask him about getting an antibiotic at the same time. Boyfriend's little brother (he's 18 so not "little" little) will be over in a few so I can go to the grocery store. Haven't even called boyfriend yet who is in PA for miliatary training to let him know. He can find out when I have time and the situation is under control.

I think I'm going to make both of them new e-collars and for some reason, it just struck me that I probably shouldn't have them caged together. I'm nervous of them being around bars so they will each get their own rubbermaid tub for the time being. I'll have to figure out how to attach the bird feeding tubes. Dr. Hedges told me to give meds every six hours so in 3 1/2 hours they get another dose. It just seems so strange how one minute Baby Boy is trying to get at his incision and the next moment it is so very obvious that I'm dealing with a sedative little fella. Ok, gotta write down a shopping list and get ready to boogie to the store, but I will jump back on as soon as I get new e-collars completed. I'm going to leave this page up just in case Thaniel (boyfriend's brother) needs help so he has another resource while I'm breaking the speed limit driving home.

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#301928 - 05/30/07 09:08 PM Re: Neutering SM [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


I will answer the questions that I feel able to.
1. A bird e collar would work fine as long as it is deep enough from nose to shoulder. It would depend on which size that was used (bird e collars come in different sizes).
2. I will let someone else answer that question though you can use a bird trough waterer. Walmart might have them but pet store would be more likely. Basically this works well because it's diameter is smaller than the collars' and it sticks out from the wall.
3. The torb should take effect about 30 minutes after injestion (given orally, right?). So that should have taken effect by now.
4. I don't have any pics, so hopefully someone will get this one for you.
5. My gliders are girls so I haven't researched neutering.
I hope the little bit of info has helped and you and yours will be in my prayers tonight.

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#301929 - 05/30/07 09:10 PM Re: Neutering SM [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


norphine drug is most likely buprenorphine

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#301931 - 05/30/07 09:12 PM Re: Neutering SM [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


HI Krissa,

This is abby the girl that bought your babies. your little boy did the same thing when we got him neutered just not as extremly. long story short the doctor used surgical glue to close the incision and he licked it off at midnightish and was running around with his belly open. about a hour later i was at the emergency clinic and he was getting REAL STICHES and a e-collar. the e-collar bugged him but it didnt cause any pain or anything like that. so a e-collar should be ok.you can also think of then as your little flowers insted of sattilite dishes. At least thats what my little boy looked like.lol.
i kept the boy and girl sperate so she wouldnt sm or sm him. your going to have to help the boy eat cause the e-collars are a little tricky to eat in so i fed my boy fruit at least 2 times a night and BML in a straw and let him lick it out.

Did the use stiches or surgical glue?

How are they doing now?



Ill always be here for a shoulder to cry on Krissa hug2 hug2 need_hug hug2 hug2


Edited by Giznosesmama (05/30/07 09:22 PM)

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#301933 - 05/30/07 09:13 PM Re: Neutering SM [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Off Topic: how did you get baby boy?

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#301934 - 05/30/07 09:14 PM Re: Neutering SM [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Yea, I wasnt sure about housing them together......probably better off apart so they dont somehow try to rip each others collars off or get stuck on each other. They will learn to get around after a day or two in the collars. Aidan pretty much does acrobats in his now. lol.


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#301936 - 05/30/07 09:16 PM Re: Neutering SM [Re: ]
sugeebaby Offline
Glider Slave

Registered: 09/15/04
Posts: 2113
Loc: Michigan
Yes the bird collars cut down are fine till you can get the shot glass collars on.I used a size 8 bird collar cut down till I could get a second pair of hands to help put the shot glass collar on them.
You can and should use the bird feeders that have the tubes and the feeder fits threw the cage bars.
dilute the bml down and put in the feeder for them. I also gave losts of yogart on a spoon for them.
The pain meds will work till morning. I gave my guys pain meds once a day for 5 days after their SMing.
Ther could be a number of reasons they are sming. I had two in a color at one time and in diffrent cages.
Do make sure you put them in a smaller cage that they can not climb while the collars are on. I made a tunnel out of a couple of embrodiary hoops for the boys to sleep in for the night.
Cuddle Creations has a a couple of good items for gliders in collors as well as Xfilefan.
I never did take pictures of my guys in the collars it was to sad to see them that way.
_________________________
Karen
President of The Glider Initiative
:bb: The Glider Crue :grey:

The Pampered Glider

The Glider Initiative
Have you educated someone today?



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#301955 - 05/30/07 09:40 PM Re: Neutering SM [Re: sugeebaby]
Anonymous
Unregistered


I haven't had my male neutered so I don't know what you are going through, but I wanted to let you know my prayers are with you and your babies. I am also gonna be up all night nursing a lil joey, I have yahoo if you want someone to talk to in the wee hours of the night. *HUGS* My yahoo is Fallenseraph20, I may be stealth so just IM and say your are from GC.

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#301963 - 05/30/07 09:53 PM Re: Neutering SM [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Im so sorry you have to go thru this, especially with two. Did he take the poms off?

This may sound dumb, but my vet doesnt shave the site he plucks out the hair with tweezers. In his experience, he has had less SMer's. His thinking is that maybe shaving the site gives shaving burns and maybe thats what sets them off?? He also leaves the poms on.

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#301967 - 05/30/07 09:56 PM Re: Neutering SM [Re: ]
Dancing Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 09/10/04
Posts: 22746
Loc: 80 acres of paradise in KS
The most important thing right now is to keep them from doing any more damage what ever it takes. Even if that means holding them, wrapped up like a burrito in fleece and letting them bite the tar out of you. The bites to you won't be fatal but bites to themselves can be.

Did the vet send home any pain meds?

You will want the ecollars with the moleskin/mole foam as the bird collars can lead to sores on their necks. For the shot glass style, you will want the collar to extend about an inch further than their nose. More so with a satalite dish type collar as they are very adept at curling their bodies around the collar and still chewing.

You need to access the damage and see how bad it is, if bad, you need to take them back to the vet.
_________________________
620-704-9109
Judge not until you have walked in their shoes and lived their lives. What you see online is only part of the story.

I could have missed the pain
But I'd of had to miss the dance


The soul would have no rainbow if the eyes had no tears.

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#301970 - 05/30/07 09:57 PM Re: Neutering SM [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Yup, my boys now have no poms. Rachel, Baby Boy is the brother to your two. Just got back and I'm checking in quickly. I have to go make an e-collar or two (what fun my life is becoming), but I'll be back. This is my question---why do I get two SMs? Most people have no problems, this vet has had no problems, I neuter two males, I get two SMs! What gives?

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#301986 - 05/30/07 10:11 PM Re: Neutering SM [Re: ]
thefotokat Offline
Glider Slave

Registered: 06/23/06
Posts: 1360
Loc: Ft. Pierce, FL
pm sent
_________________________
Kate
SouthEast Sugar Gliders
SESG Rescue and Sanctuary
SECARES
Go To The Vet!!!

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#301987 - 05/30/07 10:12 PM Re: Neutering SM [Re: ]
Bourbon Offline
Serious Glideritis

Registered: 04/01/99
Posts: 5333
Loc: Bee-Bopping round SnakePit USA
i sent you my number in PM..
_________________________
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SGGA

CustomCruiser

BML

Sugar Glider Genetic Project

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#302015 - 05/30/07 10:41 PM Re: Neutering SM [Re: Bourbon]
Dancing Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 09/10/04
Posts: 22746
Loc: 80 acres of paradise in KS
Please give Bourbon a call, she will be able to answer your questions for you and give you advice on what to do next.
_________________________
620-704-9109
Judge not until you have walked in their shoes and lived their lives. What you see online is only part of the story.

I could have missed the pain
But I'd of had to miss the dance


The soul would have no rainbow if the eyes had no tears.

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#302070 - 05/30/07 11:51 PM Re: Neutering SM [Re: Dancing]
Anonymous
Unregistered


OK, just got done trying to put on a true e-collar and it was a miserable failure. Does the moleskin come in different thicknesses? I don't know if I have a drama queen or not, but Baby Boy kept acting like it was too tight. He would stare up at me with one eye closed and the other half open. If I loosened it, he would shimmy sham right out of the thing. My "aide" and I thought that maybe the moleskin made it very thick and that was causing problems by putting more pressure on?


I spoke with the vet and got lots of "no's". It was said that the collasate would just draw more attention to the open wound (?), he said there are no neuro-blockers which would last long enough and that he wouldn't be concerned about antibiotics unless I see signs of infection. This was all relayed on via one of his vet Techs. He did call me back a bit after 10pm and we went over everything again. He said that I can give them 0.1mL of the painkiller/sedative mixture instead of only 0.08mL's. He seems friendly enough, but I don't want friends (present company excluded), I want my kids to be healthy! We spoke of ensure and yogurt being given about 50/50 or I told him I was doing it and he agreed. I'm thinking that a trip to the ER vet might be in order to get more stuff for pain management.

So far, I haven't got the bird feeders set up (Target doesn't have any and the pet stores are closed), but I have syringed .3mL's of ensure/yogurt to both of the guys and will try again in a few. Right now they are both pretty sedated and are just lying back looking none too pleased with the current state of affairs in our home. I'm going to go offer them more ensure/yogurt and then I'm going to give Bourbon a call. I'll be checking on this site all night in case anyone has advice. I've got a 12 pack of cafferinated soda and I'm planning on drinking as much as I need to in order to keep an eye on Cooper and Baby Boy.

On the lighter side, I have a feeling that Baby Boy's true name is going to come out of this situation. Prior to today, "Confusion Maker" was the most apt thing to call him, but that just doesn't shorten into a nickname well. Even sedated, he can fight that e-collar like no one's business. As long as he's fighting me, he's not biting himself and while I may scar, I'll heal. These two have barely begun sharing their lives with me. Cooper has been with me for 3 years and I consider that to be only the beginning!

Just got done syringing ensure/yogurt to the guys. Cooper just took 2.9mL bringing his total to 3.2mL while Baby Boy took in 2.1mL for a current total of 2.4mL.


Edited by magilarilla (05/31/07 12:05 AM)
Edit Reason: updating and inputing correct unit of measurement (mL instead of cc's)

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#302076 - 05/31/07 12:00 AM Re: Neutering SM [Re: ]
Dancing Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 09/10/04
Posts: 22746
Loc: 80 acres of paradise in KS
My understanding of the bufranorphine (the neuro blocker) is it only lasts about 2 hours. The collasate spray has not yet been used on a post neuter sm so I'm not sure how/if it will work. IT has been used on tail amputations with NO ecollar but the key for the collasate to work is it is use in conjunction with pain meds.

The best advice I can offer is to discuss all this with Bourbon. I have been on the phone with her while she has advised others and that woman really knows her stuff. Hang in there and if you need to talk in the middle of the night, feel free to call me.
620 215 4857. I almost never sleep at night so don't worry about waking me.
_________________________
620-704-9109
Judge not until you have walked in their shoes and lived their lives. What you see online is only part of the story.

I could have missed the pain
But I'd of had to miss the dance


The soul would have no rainbow if the eyes had no tears.

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#302115 - 05/31/07 04:29 AM Re: Neutering SM [Re: Dancing]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Hey hun, just checking to see how its going. I am still praying for you and those little ones. *HUGS*

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#302116 - 05/31/07 04:37 AM Re: Neutering SM [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Hey did you make it through the night ok?? That is the worst part, but if you made it through it'll get easier. Hope all is well!

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#302117 - 05/31/07 04:37 AM Re: Neutering SM [Re: Dancing]
Anonymous
Unregistered


I spoke with both Dancing (Teresa) and Bourbon for several hours and may I start off by saying may God bless them for their limitless hearts! After getting me to breath and speak a bit more coherently, they talked me through all sorts of things...my options, how to apply an e-collar one handed, what to feed, etc. Some of those things we had to cover several times before I understood the words coming out of my phone. Both boys have stopped trying to get at their incision sites and only periodically try to get their e-collars off. I'm pushing the fluids (especially since they've been getting ensure) and offering them both yogurt/ensure as well as watered down BML. My panic level has subsided to a managable level of concern and first thing in the morning, I'm going to be back at Dr. Hedges to get Cooper's incision site closed back up (he's the only one who actually opened the incision back up). Baby Boy currently just wants to be on me and Cooper is keeping an eye on me since he knows exactly who put that funny shaped piece of plastic on his head. We may not be out of the woods, but I feel like I can actually see the trail.


One thing I would like to add for anyone reading this who plans to neuter their gliders, from talking with Dancing and Bourbon, I learned that neutering SMs are much more common than I had originally believed. Also, I found out that if I had been present when they first started going for their incisions prepared to put e-collars on them if need be, I could've prevented all of this. Hindsight is 50-50 like they always say, but I hope someone else may realize that e-collars aren't that difficult to make if you don't have to read the directions when you're already in a panic state. Plus, how much easier would an e-collar be to put on a glider just coming out of anesthesia than one that is bound and determined to get to their incision site? If nothing else, just ask Dancing how many e-collars she carries on her on a regular basis!


Edited by magilarilla (05/31/07 04:38 AM)

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#302119 - 05/31/07 05:14 AM Re: Neutering SM [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


I am glad things are going better for you, and I read with pride how once again GC members are here for one another. I for one will learn from your experience and have an e-collar ready when I get my male neutered.

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#302316 - 05/31/07 12:11 PM Re: Neutering SM [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


OK, just got back from seeing Dr. Hedges again to close up Cooper. I'm just going to show that boy that I can out-stubborn him when it comes to this. Dr. Hedges and his staff were incredibly helpful fitting me into their schedule as a walk-in and not charging me for anything other than more meds. He examine both guys even though Baby Boy's damage looks more like just irratation at this point. I now have just plain torb for the pain as well as baytil as an antibiotic. Even better from the boys' point of view, this stuff tastes much better than the sedative/pain med mix I had earlier. I am going to get them with me under my shirt in their own individual sleepy sacks (yes, I made them their own no-sew pouches last night so they could get in and out easier plus its simplier for me to get them out for meds) and we are going to cat nap in our big leather chair. I get to cuddle with two of my three favorite guys (the third one is currently in PA and he'll be home on Monday--just in time to help me with some of the glider duties if need be!). Both guys are holding up like champs. They don't like walking into the exam room anymore, but they run to me (as well as they can in an e-collar) as soon as the vet is done. Cooper is still vocally protesting being restrained in any manner, but that just shows that my little man has plenty of fight and spunk.

About the antibiotic, when I spoke with Dancing/Teresa and Bourbon last night, they told me that I could apply neosporin to the wound for its antibacterial properties. To either of you unestimatable ladies or anyone else with the knowledge, would it be alright to combine oral baytril with topical neosporin?

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#302348 - 05/31/07 12:45 PM Re: Neutering SM [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Originally Posted By: magilarilla
To either of you unestimatable ladies or anyone else with the knowledge, would it be alright to combine oral baytril with topical neosporin?


Yes, they can be used together safely.

Glad to hear that things are going better and that you got the cet to listen. You are doing an awesome job.

Best wishes!

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#302361 - 05/31/07 01:11 PM Re: Neutering SM [Re: ]
Dancing Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 09/10/04
Posts: 22746
Loc: 80 acres of paradise in KS
Krissa, I'm so glad to hear the good report. Your boys are in very good hands. Just remember to breathe and don't hesitate to call if you need/want to.
_________________________
620-704-9109
Judge not until you have walked in their shoes and lived their lives. What you see online is only part of the story.

I could have missed the pain
But I'd of had to miss the dance


The soul would have no rainbow if the eyes had no tears.

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#303024 - 06/01/07 01:58 AM Re: Neutering SM [Re: Dancing]
Dancing Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 09/10/04
Posts: 22746
Loc: 80 acres of paradise in KS
How are the boys doing? Would love an update.
_________________________
620-704-9109
Judge not until you have walked in their shoes and lived their lives. What you see online is only part of the story.

I could have missed the pain
But I'd of had to miss the dance


The soul would have no rainbow if the eyes had no tears.

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#303033 - 06/01/07 04:53 AM Re: Neutering SM [Re: Dancing]
Anonymous
Unregistered


They're doing much better. They vaccilate between being angry with me for the e-collars and the "indigity" of being neutered and wanting to cuddle with Mom. They handled their nap with me like little champs yesterday all things considered. Getting a little sleep back into my worn out system plus being able to do it with them has helped give me back even more equalibrium. I think they were just as worn out as I was. I'm liking having the plain old Torb for pain management so I can guage where their behavior and activity levels are at. All in all, baring any changes, I feel like we're just at a keep an eye on them and wait for time to heal them stage. Hopefully, that is true.

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