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#302560 - 05/31/07 04:24 PM posible answers to FAQ regarding neutering
Dancing Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 09/10/04
Posts: 22746
Loc: 80 acres of paradise in KS
I have been trying to help quite a lot of people lately with neutering questions so I thought maybe it was time to start a thread on what I am finding to be the most FAQ. This information is being offered only based on my own research and experiences (Iíve had 28 gliders neutered to date). Please discuss all medical questions and concerns with your vet.

1. Why should I have my male neutered?

There are many reasons and benefits to having your male glider neutered.
a) To prevent joeys. This is especially important to prevent inbreeding, where males are housed with their sisters, mothers or dadís housed with their daughters.

b) Intact males living together, especially if there is a female in the house, even if not in the same cage, can and often will fight viciously, sometimes to the death. Intact males are often more aggressive with other gliders, especially other males due to dominance issues.

c) Neutering reduces the risk of testicular cancer (since the testicles are removed).

d) Neutering reduces the male hormones thus causing their head and chest scent glands to dry (stop producing the scent oils) reducing the ďsmellĒ of the gliders.

e) Neutering generally reduces the mating urge although some neutered males will still go though the act, not realizing they can not produce offspring. Reducing this urge is important especially in cases where the male has created mating wounds on the females in the past. Neutering will NOT guarantee that the male will not still try and will not guarantee that it will prevent future mating wounds.

f) In some cases, neutering will stop the cycle of self mutilating when the SM is hormone driven.

g) Many neutered males just make more sweet loving companions for their cage mates and humans.

2. At what age can gliders be neutered?

Male gliders are born with their testicles inside their abdomen cavity. As they mature, they descend into the scrotum. This can happen as early as about 8 weeks oop but generally not until 3-5 months oop. Some vets will neuter very early on but it seems the majority prefer to wait until the glider is at least 4 months oop OR has reached a certain weight. The concern about weight has more to do with the administration of anesthesia and pain meds as those are usually calculated based on the weight of the glider. Gliders CAN be neutered anytime AFTER their testicles have dropped into the scrotum. Neutering earlier than that means they will have to open the abdomen to search for the testicles to remove them. This is much more invasive and dangerous to the glider.

3. How are gliders neutered?

There are several methods to neutering.

a) Removing the testicles and the scrotum.

This method generally requires the use of glue or stitches to close the incision and has both advantages and disadvantages. One advantage is, testosterone is found both in the gonads and the scrotum. Removing the scrotum does further reduce the hormones present in the glider. This can be very important in cases of self mutilators where other causes beyond hormones have been ruled out. Reducing the hormone levels may or may not decrease the mating urge as well. One disadvantage is the use of glue or stitches increases the risk of post neuter self mutilation due to the glue or stitches being an irritant to the glider and him wanting to remove that irritant. Generally, proper pain management and possible use of an ecollar for 24-36 hours can prevent this type of post neuter sm. In some cases of clocoal SM, where neutering is indicated, it is recommended that the scrotum be removed to reduce the hormone levels and the risk of future clocoal SM.


b) Removing just the testicles, leaving the scrotum.

This method seems to be less invasive for the glider. An incision is made in the scrotum, the blood vessels are tied off or cauterized and the testicles are removed. Generally no external glue or stitches are needed as the incision will usually close on its own within 24 hours. The healing time seems to be less with this type of neutering. However, there is still a risk of post neuter SM and pain management is still needed.

Regardless whether or not the scrotum is removed, laser surgery is an option though can be expensive. Using a laser cauterizes the blood vessels and reduces any bleeding.

4. What are the odds of post neuter SM?

The truth is, no one can predict which gliders will SM post neutering. It seems to be almost a 50/50 chance. The best plan is to be prepared for the worst.

5. What can I do to prepare for possible post neuter SM?

a) One of the most important things you can do to prepare is to have an ecollar and KNOW how to use them BEFORE you have your glider neutered. Practice putting the collar on your glider before it is needed so that if/when the need is there, you will have a better understanding of how to put them on, how tight it needs to be and how to tell if your glider is breathing ok in the collar. Not all gliders will need an ecollar post neuter but it is best to be prepared and know what to do IF it is needed. Truth is, most vets donít have ecollars for gliders nor do many of them have any idea how to put one on properly. Make sure you have the proper size of ecollar as well. With a shot glass style ecollar (like the one Xfilefan makes) if the gliderís nose extends beyond the end of the ecollar, they can still chew and do damage. With the satellite dish style, the collar should extend anywhere from half an inch to one inch beyond their nose. Use of a satellite dish style should only be used with constant supervision as many gliders can still curl their body around and into the ecollar allowing them to reach their clocoa or incision site.

b) Discuss with your vet what method he/she uses and ask them WHY they do it that way. Some vets just donít realize there are other methods used successfully with gliders. Donít be afraid to voice your concerns about the different methods and discuss alternatives with your vet.

c) PAIN MANAGEMENT! Pain management is crucial. This can not be stressed enough. When gliders are in pain, they believe they are being attacked and will fight back. They will chew at the site of the pain which only makes it worse causing them to chew more. When a glider is coming out of the anesthesia, they are often disoriented and will sometimes (often) attack anything handy. I have had them bite at me, their feet, tails and clocoal area as well as their incision site. Again, not all gliders will need an ecollar post neuter but it is best to be prepared and know what to do IF it is needed. By using an ecollar and proper pain management, the risk of SM is greatly reduced. There are many options to pain management.

1) Bufranoraphine is a gel, a neuro-blocker that is placed behind the ear. It blocks the transmittion of pain impulses to the brain. In effect, the brain never receives the message that anything was even done. This has a short lived effect of only about 2 hours. With many gliders though, that is often long enough.

2) Torbitol. This is a pain med that can be administered before the procedure begins or before the glider comes out of the anesthesia. This generally lasts for 4-6 hours but can be given more often IF needed and only on the advice of your vet.

3) Metacam. This is an anti-inflammatory medicine. If you do end up with a glider with an infection, or a torn incision and have to use it longer than 3 days, it's a good idea to switch to a narcotic pain killer instead of a non steroidal anti-inflammatory because of the risk to the liver.
It does have it purposes but there is a risk of organ damage in gliders and not a med that I will use.

The following is contributed by Xfilefan:
Quote:
Butorphanol (also known as Bute but that's more in horse circles) and Torbuterol (Torb)-distinguished from the injectable form you listed, both are an oral narcotic painkiller that may be given about every 4 hours for several weeks if necessary without the associated kidney risks of a non steroidal anti inflammatory drug (NSAID), which Metacam is. Butorphanol also comes in an injectible form, but usually for large animals-as far as I know. Benefits to the Butorphanol and Torbuterol over Metacam also is that Metacam shouldn't be given more than a maximum of twice a day, for 3 days, while the others can be given up to 4-6 times daily for better pain control. However, the narcotic painkillers do not have anti-inflammatory action, which is where the benefit in Metacam is-if inflammation or swelling is a concern it's definitely better. If Metacam alone doesn't control the pain, but swelling is a concern, 2 meds might be needed in the case of a glider going after himself. Without that concern, i.e. for pain management only, the others are less of a risk.


Iím sure there are other options as well but these are the ones I have either used or heard the best results with. Again, this is something to discuss with your vet. What ever method of pain management you choose, please make sure you do use some form of pain management. Often times vets will tell you it isnít necessary but from my experience, I will not ever have a glider neutered without pain meds.

6. How long does my male need to be kept separate from his cage mates?

This depends on your glider and your own comfort level. When I have my males neutered, the surgery is generally done between 10 am and 12 pm. I keep a close watch on them through out the day and if by 7pm they have shown no signs of problems, I will return them to their cage. Some I have kept watch on for 24 hours. Really, it depends on the glider and the method used. One thing to watch for if you do return them to their cage mates is that the other gliders do not start grooming the incision site.

7. Do I need to remove their wheel?

Some will tell you yes, remove their wheel for 3 days. Honestly though, I never have. Again, this is a comfort issue for you. If you feel that leaving the wheel could make them further injure themselves (and risk SM) then by all means, remove their wheel. It definitely wonít hurt them to go without their wheel for a few days. With my gliders, it seems as if the wheel provides a distraction for them as well as a stress reliever. It is very hard for them to chew if they are running. Keep in mind that if the glider is in an ecollar, many have a hard time with wheels, especially if they are a closed fronted wheel like the Whodent wheels. It is just hard (or impossible) for them to get in and out of the wheel with the collar on. Also, some mesh tracks can snag the ecollars while the glider is running.

8. How long post neuter will it be before they can no longer get my female pregnant?

Here you will get a variety of answers. Sperm only has about a 72 hour life span. It can take anywhere from 1 month to a year for their hormones to dissipate and their scent glands to disappear. As long as those hormones are present, their mating urge will still be strong. If you are neutering to prevent unwanted joeys, it is probably best to keep them separate for 3-5 days. Keep in mind though, females can keep fertilized embryos in stasis for 6 months to a year so if they have mated prior to the neutering, you may still end up with a surprise bundle of joy. This does not mean the neutering was unsuccessful.

9. What if my glider does self mutilate?

First, do what ever you need to do to prevent damage from being done. Such as putting them in an ecollar or even wrapping them up in fleece so they can not chew at themselves. It is better that they bite and chew you than themselves. You will not die from the bites but they often can do fatal damage in a very very short time. Then, contact someone on the SM team. Bourbon, Mary Holcomb or Xfilefan. They will be able to help you and walk you through what to do next and what to expect.

10. What are some of the risks involved with neutering?

Neutering is surgery regardless which method is used. Anytime gliders (or any animal) are put under anesthesia, there is the risk of respiratory failure. Infection is also a possibility. Post neuter hemaotoma can occur if a blood vessel ruptures or leaks causing an internal bleed. Post neuter self mutilation is also possible (as already discussed).
_________________________
620-704-9109
Judge not until you have walked in their shoes and lived their lives. What you see online is only part of the story.

I could have missed the pain
But I'd of had to miss the dance


The soul would have no rainbow if the eyes had no tears.

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#302570 - 05/31/07 04:33 PM Re: posible answers to FAQ regarding neutering [Re: Dancing]
pappy1264 Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 08/31/06
Posts: 11015
Loc: MA
My vet said to keep him and his cagemate seperate for a week! If he is doing ok, do you think a couple of days would be ok?
_________________________
Timmy, Gidget(RIP), Bandit, Petey(RIP), Phoebe, Jake (RIP) Piper(RIP), Pru(RIP), Paige, Cole, Molly(RIP), Oliver, Wyatt, Roo(RIP), Romeo, Pennie, Mandy(RIP), Madison, Garth, Kikipoo, Stasia, Bella, Petunia(RIP), Helen, Sydney, Kizzy and Sweet Pea's mom,
Mary

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#302575 - 05/31/07 04:38 PM Re: posible answers to FAQ regarding neutering [Re: Dancing]
Holly1221 Offline
Glider Slave

Registered: 08/10/06
Posts: 2321
Loc: Maryland
thanks Teresa. i'm sure that will be very helpful to some of us slaves who are getting theier glider nuetered.
_________________________
Holly & Jeff heart
Misos Phoenix Keegan Knuckles // Asa Etienne Kyrian // Cheyenne Peyton Godiva

RIP my sweet gangel babies, mommy loves you!

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#302576 - 05/31/07 04:39 PM Re: posible answers to FAQ regarding neutering [Re: pappy1264]
Dancing Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 09/10/04
Posts: 22746
Loc: 80 acres of paradise in KS
That depends on the method used to neuter and if the reason for keeping them seperate is to prevent them mating. See #6 and #8.

Please understand, these are MY opinions based on my research and experiences. It is not intended to undermine your vet or counter his advice and recommendations.
_________________________
620-704-9109
Judge not until you have walked in their shoes and lived their lives. What you see online is only part of the story.

I could have missed the pain
But I'd of had to miss the dance


The soul would have no rainbow if the eyes had no tears.

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#302581 - 05/31/07 04:43 PM Re: posible answers to FAQ regarding neutering [Re: Dancing]
pappy1264 Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 08/31/06
Posts: 11015
Loc: MA
They left the pom, and he said so she does not go after the site.
_________________________
Timmy, Gidget(RIP), Bandit, Petey(RIP), Phoebe, Jake (RIP) Piper(RIP), Pru(RIP), Paige, Cole, Molly(RIP), Oliver, Wyatt, Roo(RIP), Romeo, Pennie, Mandy(RIP), Madison, Garth, Kikipoo, Stasia, Bella, Petunia(RIP), Helen, Sydney, Kizzy and Sweet Pea's mom,
Mary

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#302587 - 05/31/07 04:51 PM Re: posible answers to FAQ regarding neutering [Re: pappy1264]
princessmegi Offline
Serious Glideritis

Registered: 11/21/03
Posts: 6894
Loc: NW Missouri
Teresa, would you mind if I added this info to my site (www.faerieflyers.com)?
_________________________

"My doctrine is this: that if we see cruelty or wrong that we have the power to stop, and we do nothing, we make ourselves sharers in the guilt." ~ Anna Sewell, English Novelist

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#302595 - 05/31/07 05:00 PM Re: posible answers to FAQ regarding neutering [Re: princessmegi]
Dancing Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 09/10/04
Posts: 22746
Loc: 80 acres of paradise in KS
Absolutely Megi, this is posted freely for anyone to use. I just hope that it helps.
_________________________
620-704-9109
Judge not until you have walked in their shoes and lived their lives. What you see online is only part of the story.

I could have missed the pain
But I'd of had to miss the dance


The soul would have no rainbow if the eyes had no tears.

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#302597 - 05/31/07 05:03 PM Re: posible answers to FAQ regarding neutering [Re: Dancing]
sugarglidersuz Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 08/28/04
Posts: 14788
Loc: Cleveland, Ohio
Teresa,
I'll be adding this information to my site, too, if you don't mind smile Thank you very much for taking the time to compile all of this for the glider-world's benefit. We all greatly appreciate it hug2
_________________________
Suz Enyedy
:bb: Carina & Coobah
Allira & Gizmo :grey:
:grey: Picasso, Trinity Joy & Luna
:rbridge: DaisyMae; Darwin; Mareki; Mambo; Pika; Cricky; Reggie & Bobo, Pepe & Bittah


Suz' Sugar Gliders

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#302600 - 05/31/07 05:05 PM Re: posible answers to FAQ regarding neutering [Re: Dancing]
minkasmom Offline
Serious Glideritis

Registered: 11/08/04
Posts: 5965
Loc: Northeast Indiana
clap Thank you for sharing this information, Teresa.

I know it will be helpful to many glider slaves & they'll have ONE PLACE to look for answers.

You're an angel
_________________________
Minkasmom (Papillon Kisses)
Slave to:
28 gliders,
5 cats,
and ONE husband (can't handle two, lol!)
gangel Remembering all my lost loves cry

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#302613 - 05/31/07 05:30 PM Re: posible answers to FAQ regarding neutering [Re: minkasmom]
Anonymous
Unregistered


I'm thinking about getting my two little ones neutered and that did help answer questions. I'm curious about something else though, is it better to get the males caged together neutered together or at different times?

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#302624 - 05/31/07 05:41 PM Re: posible answers to FAQ regarding neutering [Re: ]
ValkyrieMome Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 01/13/07
Posts: 10983
Loc: Denton, TX
Thank you, Teresa.

Very good information.
_________________________
Alden
"Animals can communicate quite well. And they do. And generally speaking, they are ignored." Alice Walker


Mom to Valhalla; 6 cats; 1 macaw; 2 hedgehogs;
and very many great gliders!

(plus the 2 skin kids)
valkyriegliders.com

Kyrie, nothing will ever fill the hole you left in my heart.

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#302629 - 05/31/07 05:46 PM Re: posible answers to FAQ regarding neutering [Re: ]
Dancing Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 09/10/04
Posts: 22746
Loc: 80 acres of paradise in KS
Crystal. That is personal preference. However, just be sure you are able to handle two cases of the "worst case situations" such as them both needing ecollars. If you are going to be "going it alone" and don't think you will have someone right there to help, I personally would do them one at a time, probably a week apart.
_________________________
620-704-9109
Judge not until you have walked in their shoes and lived their lives. What you see online is only part of the story.

I could have missed the pain
But I'd of had to miss the dance


The soul would have no rainbow if the eyes had no tears.

Top
#302631 - 05/31/07 05:47 PM Re: posible answers to FAQ regarding neutering [Re: ValkyrieMome]
RSXTC Offline
Glider Slave

Registered: 02/27/06
Posts: 1486
Loc: Albany, NY
Excellent info! Can we make this a sticky?

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#302637 - 05/31/07 05:49 PM Re: posible answers to FAQ regarding neutering [Re: ValkyrieMome]
Xfilefan Offline
Serious Glideritis

Registered: 02/22/03
Posts: 8899
Loc: Jacksonville, FL
Very nice! Now we can post a link to those Q's. grin

Only things I'd add with the pain meds:
Torbuterol
Butorphanol
and the 3 day warning with the Metacam. If you do end up with a glider with an infection, or a torn incision and have to use it longer than 3 days, it's a good idea to switch to a narcotic pain killer instead of a non steroidal anti-inflammatory because of the risk to the liver.

I've used the top two with good results with a number of gliders as well.

Nice job. smile
_________________________
Jen/Colin :bb: Commander Riker 12 16 02-10 04 12 you will be FOREVER missed :wfb: Sinbad, :wfb: Gabby, :grey: Baby, and :grey: Alley

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#302648 - 05/31/07 06:01 PM Re: posible answers to FAQ regarding neutering [Re: Xfilefan]
Dancing Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 09/10/04
Posts: 22746
Loc: 80 acres of paradise in KS
Jen, please explain more about the Butorphanol. Also, I will add/edit about the Metacam however you feel it should be worded.

I never claimed to have all the answers, and definately welcome other's input. I think it is time we have something more complete and up to date to refer people to.
_________________________
620-704-9109
Judge not until you have walked in their shoes and lived their lives. What you see online is only part of the story.

I could have missed the pain
But I'd of had to miss the dance


The soul would have no rainbow if the eyes had no tears.

Top
#302683 - 05/31/07 07:06 PM Re: posible answers to FAQ regarding neutering [Re: Dancing]
Xfilefan Offline
Serious Glideritis

Registered: 02/22/03
Posts: 8899
Loc: Jacksonville, FL
Butorphanol (also known as Bute but that's more in horse circles) and Torbuterol (Torb)-distinguished from the injectable form you listed, both are an oral narcotic painkiller that may be given about every 4 hours for several weeks if necessary without the associated kidney risks of a non steroidal anti inflammatory drug (NSAID), which Metacam is. Butorphanol also comes in an injectible form, but usually for large animals-as far as I know. Benefits to the Butorphanol and Torbuterol over Metacam also is that Metacam shouldn't be given more than a maximum of twice a day, for 3 days, while the others can be given up to 4-6 times daily for better pain control. However, the narcotic painkillers do not have anti-inflammatory action, which is where the benefit in Metacam is-if inflammation or swelling is a concern it's definitely better. If Metacam alone doesn't control the pain, but swelling is a concern, 2 meds might be needed in the case of a glider going after himself. Without that concern, i.e. for pain management only, the others are less of a risk.

Quote:
I think it is time we have something more complete and up to date to refer people to.


I agree-I was just trying to add and round out the meds info- smile

The only other thing with the wheels is I had one that did strain his incision running on one-watching if you leave it in is a good idea. Mine needed a couple extra days of meds, but that's all. You could tell it bothered him, he pulled the stitch (he had torn himself upon waking) but he didn't SM. It's probably rare, but it can happen if they get too crazy with the thing or use it excessively.
_________________________
Jen/Colin :bb: Commander Riker 12 16 02-10 04 12 you will be FOREVER missed :wfb: Sinbad, :wfb: Gabby, :grey: Baby, and :grey: Alley

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#302712 - 05/31/07 07:42 PM Re: posible answers to FAQ regarding neutering [Re: Xfilefan]
pappy1264 Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 08/31/06
Posts: 11015
Loc: MA
They used Butorphonal on Bandit yesterday after his surgery, and sent home Metacam for 3 days (if needed). I discussed the organ issues, and he said because it was only a few days, it would be fine. He seems fine tonight and has not had a dose today. Do you think I should give it anyway or not bother? He is jumping and running around his temp cage (no wheel). Thanks for the info, it sure is helpful!
_________________________
Timmy, Gidget(RIP), Bandit, Petey(RIP), Phoebe, Jake (RIP) Piper(RIP), Pru(RIP), Paige, Cole, Molly(RIP), Oliver, Wyatt, Roo(RIP), Romeo, Pennie, Mandy(RIP), Madison, Garth, Kikipoo, Stasia, Bella, Petunia(RIP), Helen, Sydney, Kizzy and Sweet Pea's mom,
Mary

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#302759 - 05/31/07 08:29 PM Re: posible answers to FAQ regarding neutering [Re: pappy1264]
Xfilefan Offline
Serious Glideritis

Registered: 02/22/03
Posts: 8899
Loc: Jacksonville, FL
If he doesn't need it, don't worry about it. Most gliders bounce right back and act as if nothing ever happened. Usually if they haven't gone after it the first 24 hours, they tend not to. If you want to give one more dose for your peace of mind, it won't hurt him, but it's probably not necessary at this point. smile

The gliders that do SM, believe it or not, are really a very, very small percent-it's just that we hear when there's a problem, and usually when there isn't and all is well, we don't hear, so it tends to seem more threatening than it is, although the numbers have increased the past couple of years. Not sure if it's due to breeding/decrease in pain tolerance, more vets performing them without adequate understanding of the animal and procedure, or what-regardless, it's still considered rare.
_________________________
Jen/Colin :bb: Commander Riker 12 16 02-10 04 12 you will be FOREVER missed :wfb: Sinbad, :wfb: Gabby, :grey: Baby, and :grey: Alley

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#302806 - 05/31/07 08:56 PM Re: posible answers to FAQ regarding neutering [Re: Xfilefan]
pappy1264 Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 08/31/06
Posts: 11015
Loc: MA
I think I will hold off, as he seems fine, is playing, eating and the area looks as if nothing ever was done, so I think I will be fine to leave him be (he HATES getting medicated!) I will sleep right next to him like I did last night (I am a very light sleeper) so if he does anything I will know it! Thanks Jen! I was so worried about getting a neuter done (having never had one done) but I am glad it is done now!
_________________________
Timmy, Gidget(RIP), Bandit, Petey(RIP), Phoebe, Jake (RIP) Piper(RIP), Pru(RIP), Paige, Cole, Molly(RIP), Oliver, Wyatt, Roo(RIP), Romeo, Pennie, Mandy(RIP), Madison, Garth, Kikipoo, Stasia, Bella, Petunia(RIP), Helen, Sydney, Kizzy and Sweet Pea's mom,
Mary

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#302826 - 05/31/07 09:11 PM Re: posible answers to FAQ regarding neutering [Re: pappy1264]
ValkyrieMome Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 01/13/07
Posts: 10983
Loc: Denton, TX
Mary -
I'm glad it is done now too!

See! All that worry, and Bandit is just playing like normal! Sweet boy didn't even know! (I'm only joshing you - I was the same way with Rocket! It kinda felt anti-climactic after all that worry!)
_________________________
Alden
"Animals can communicate quite well. And they do. And generally speaking, they are ignored." Alice Walker


Mom to Valhalla; 6 cats; 1 macaw; 2 hedgehogs;
and very many great gliders!

(plus the 2 skin kids)
valkyriegliders.com

Kyrie, nothing will ever fill the hole you left in my heart.

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#302860 - 05/31/07 09:40 PM Re: posible answers to FAQ regarding neutering [Re: ValkyrieMome]
sugarglidersuz Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 08/28/04
Posts: 14788
Loc: Cleveland, Ohio
With Admin approval, this information has now been combined with the previous Sticky's info and is a new Sticky thumb
Neutering FAQ's

thanks thanks thanks Teresa for all your hard work in composing & compiling this information for all of us to learn from and reference to... You're one of the Best! hug2
_________________________
Suz Enyedy
:bb: Carina & Coobah
Allira & Gizmo :grey:
:grey: Picasso, Trinity Joy & Luna
:rbridge: DaisyMae; Darwin; Mareki; Mambo; Pika; Cricky; Reggie & Bobo, Pepe & Bittah


Suz' Sugar Gliders

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#302863 - 05/31/07 09:44 PM Re: posible answers to FAQ regarding neutering [Re: sugarglidersuz]
gliderdad79 Offline
Owner

Registered: 02/19/04
Posts: 15514
Loc: Long Island, NY
Yes, thank you Teresa clap
_________________________
Eddie

In the Tropics somewhere between the port of indecision and southeast of disorder!

"Great people talk about ideas. Average people talk about things. Small people talk about other people."

One day your life will flash before your eyes. Make sure its worth watching!

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