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#3117 - 03/12/02 09:10 PM My little boy died today- please read/help
Anonymous
Unregistered


Hi. I haven't posted here in a few years, but now I have to.
My 3 year old male, Jonesy, died today. Last night he suddenly showed symptoms of HLP and dehydration, and I rushed him to the vet. At the Pet ER, it appeared that it wasn't just his hind legs that were affected, his fronts were too. He was extremely weak and breathing heavy. He was given calcium in case it was HLP, and sugar in case he was hypoglycemic, along with Baytril and fluids. He was in an incubator all night and seemed to improve. Transporting him to his regular vet in the morning was a 40 minute drive. During the drive, his breathing became heavier and faster. He was admitted to the hospital for supportive care, but died a few hours later.
Our original thought that it was a nutritional or metabolic problem- diabetes of some sort or HLP or something similar- appears to have been wrong. Now the vet seems to think that it was heart failure, a heart defect, or something that went wrong with his lungs.
If anybody has experienced something similar to this, I would appreciate any information you could give me on what might have happened. A necropsy is being performed, but the Doctor isn't sure if he'll be able to find out what went wrong.
Jonesy leaves behind a lonely girlfriend, Smei, and a very sad owner.
Rest in Peace Indiana Jonesy.
Love Amy

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#3118 - 03/12/02 09:59 PM Re: My little boy died today- please read/help [Re: ]
Sheila Offline
Serious Glideritis

Registered: 02/05/00
Posts: 5363
Loc: Ok
I am so sorry for you. Please let us know about the necropsy because I have heard a lot of gliders dieing or coming ill these days due to bacteria.

About the breathing hard. Most gliders breath heavy and hard right before death.
Even little joeys that are rejected and die, breath real hard right before death.
<img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />
_________________________
ToandFro Gliders

http://www.toandfrogliders.com

USDA Licensed breeder for 12 years and counting!

WE SELL THE STEALTH WHEEL

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#3119 - 03/12/02 11:12 PM Re: My little boy died today- please read/help [Re: ]
PepPony Offline
Glider Slave

Registered: 11/27/01
Posts: 2088
Amy--It was really sad to hear about your glider. Do not make a stranger of yourself for so long in the forum. We would like to have you come by and visit more often. You did the right thing in this case by having the necropsy performed. That should give you some closure as to what happened and it will also protect your other gliders if it is something that can be prevented or treated. I really feel for you! Take care and stop by more often and under better circumstances. Also, if you could post the results of the necropsy here, it could possibly help other glider owners and save a glider. Thank you for sharing your story.

John (Rocky & Adrienne)

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#3120 - 03/13/02 02:29 PM Re: My little boy died today- please read/help [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


im so sorry. i dont have expirience, so am not gonna answer. im really sorry for your loss <img border="0" alt="[crying]" title="" src="graemlins/crying.gif" /> i was talking when i went to post this, and my IM got posted in here, so thats why i edited..im sorry again <img border="0" alt="[crying]" title="" src="graemlins/crying.gif" />

<small>[ 03-13-2002, 03:31 PM: Message edited by: Casie ]</small>

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#3121 - 03/13/02 05:15 PM Re: My little boy died today- please read/help [Re: ]
Judie Offline
Serious Glideritis

Registered: 10/25/01
Posts: 9173
Loc: Edwardsville, Kansas 66113
So sad about your glider passing. It is difficult to say why your little guy passed. Only way to know what may have been the problem was to have had a nucropsy done.
_________________________
Web site: www.MyLittleGremlin.com

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#3122 - 03/13/02 09:15 PM Re: My little boy died today- please read/help [Re: ]
SugarLove Offline
Glider Addict

Registered: 10/04/99
Posts: 4761
Loc: Lincolnton, NC
Amy, I am so sorry to hear of Jonesy's passing. I remember when you first started posting about him and all the cute things you shared together. Hold on to those memories. They will last a lifetime. Jonesy is right there over the rainbow bridge playing with my Fire who recently departed...just know he is not alone and neither are you. With all our love.
Virginia & family
_________________________
*~*~ A Pocket FULL of Sugar ~*~*

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#3123 - 04/11/02 04:26 PM Re: My little boy died today- please read/help [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


I am so sorry about your baby. I just got my 9wk old OOP and i would go crazy if mine died. I now know what to look for now, but my deepest sympathy goes out to you. <img border="0" alt="glider" title="" src="graemlins/littleglider.gif" /> <img border="0" alt="[crying]" title="" src="graemlins/crying.gif" />

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#3124 - 04/11/02 05:10 PM Re: My little boy died today- please read/help [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


I'm so sorry about your baby, Amy. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

Ginny

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#3128 - 03/13/02 10:30 PM Jonesy's unexpected cause of death
Anonymous
Unregistered


I received a call from my wonderful vet today. He knows that I work as a p/t veterinary technician myself, and was not afraid to call and tell me what he saw as he searched for Jonesy's cause of death. He immediately noticed that there was a lot of fluid around his lungs. It was orange/yellow, not the clearish fluid that one might expect. He then noticed that Jonesy's liver was "mottled looking" and just generally very abnormal. Closer examination revealed what may have been cancer of the liver. If not cancer, then Jonesy had a liver defect/failure. The lack of liver function caused Jonesy's blood to circulate through his body, unfiltered. The fluid in his body cavity was the result of this, and put stress on his heart and lungs. He's not sure what could have triggered Jonesy's death so suddenly, but it could have been due to a rupture on his liver. It is very odd, and possibly the result of genetic predisposition, that Jonesy's liver failed when he was only 3.
I did not request further testing, etc., because I only wanted to go so far as to know that this was not something that I could have prevented. It is a great comfort to me to know that this was not diet or lifestyle related. It is also not something contagious that Smei could develop.
I picked up his body today and could not open the box myself, but a wonderful co-worker of mine placed him in a different box that I had selected. She said that he was wrapped in the clean blue fleece that I had left him in at the vet's, and that he looked very peaceful. This has provided a wonderful fealing of closure.
Thank you for your kind words.
Amy and Smei

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#3129 - 03/13/02 11:35 PM Re: Jonesy's unexpected cause of death [Re: ]
Merlin Offline
Glider Explorer

Registered: 02/01/02
Posts: 260
Loc: WILLOWSPRINGS MO
Amy

My glider passed away at about 3 years old from liver cancer. We decided that it was caused by feeding him too many peanuts. Peanuts are stored in a silo. The bottom ones get moldy and spread toxins throughout the silo. Adults can handle it but gliders are too small. The result is cancer. He started to get jaundiced about a week before he passed away. He slept a lot and was very quiet. He was breathing heavy and I was holding him when he passed.

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#3130 - 03/13/02 11:52 PM Re: Jonesy's unexpected cause of death [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Merlin, it's so great that you were with your glider when he passed. My only regret is that I wasn't with Jonesy. I didn't have him put to sleep because he has been sick on other occasions and made incredible recoveries within a few days. Had I known previously that he had cancer, I would have had him euthenized while I was with him. I do not feed my gliders peanuts and their food is all freshly cut, so I don't think that has to do with his passing, but your input is very valuable, and I won't forget it.
Thanks, Amy

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#3131 - 03/13/02 11:55 PM Re: Jonesy's unexpected cause of death [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Thank you for letting us know what happened, Amy. We continue to grieve with you, and hope it works out that you can get a new mate for your remaining glider soon.

I will email you offline, as we have a death database and the information you got from your vet could be very helpful to other glider owners and even researchers and vets.

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#3132 - 03/14/02 12:19 AM Re: Jonesy's unexpected cause of death [Re: Anonymous]
PepPony Offline
Glider Slave

Registered: 11/27/01
Posts: 2088
Amy--Thanks for the input! It is always good to know the reason for a glider's passing. I know it must have been hard for you! My prayers are with you! At least you know that he is in a good place now and that you gave him a fitting viewing and that he had blue fleece for his final resting place. Here is one thing that should bring you comfort, he will always be there in your memory. He will always be alive by just thinking about the good times. That is the best memorial any glider could have--that their owner thinks about them from time to time. Thanks for sharing your story.

John (Rocky & Adrienne)

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#3133 - 03/14/02 08:46 AM Re: Jonesy's unexpected cause of death [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


So sorry to hear about Jonesy's passing. I lost my sweet girl last summer after a very difficult, undiagnosed illness. As I learned during Olivia's fight and ultimately her death, there are so many wonderful people here who can and will offer prayers and kind words to try to ease the pain and guilt.

Know that this wonderful family is here for you. Please do not be a stranger.

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#3134 - 03/14/02 12:41 PM Re: Jonesy's unexpected cause of death [Re: ]
Sheila Offline
Serious Glideritis

Registered: 02/05/00
Posts: 5363
Loc: Ok
Just recently it was brought to my attention of three gliders who were a family and they died suddenly. A necropsy was done on two of the three and the symptoms were the same as your glider This was the conclusion:
Diagnosis : Marked biliary hyperplasia with mild to moderate fibrosis and hepatocellular and vacuolar change, liver

Comments: Histologic changes are confined to the liver and are severe enough to result in significant hepatic insufficiency. This form of hepatic alteration is generally associated with exposure to hepatotoxins such as mycotoxins or pyrrolizidine alkaloids; however, a similar change occur with obstruction of the biliary tree. Given the history of multiple losses, toxicosis seems more likely. This is not a recognized entity peculiar to sugar gliders, and can occur in all species.

( I am not sure exactly if it was word for word but it was put to me like for example)
It is mostly seen in birds from the grains and corn feed that are stored or kept in grain elevators. It's a fungal mold that grows on the grain or in the elevator I am not sure. But it gets in or on the food in which they consume. And on these little guy's like the sugar gliders it doesn't take much and it destroy's their liver and shuts down their system. Hope this helps.
_________________________
ToandFro Gliders

http://www.toandfrogliders.com

USDA Licensed breeder for 12 years and counting!

WE SELL THE STEALTH WHEEL

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#3135 - 03/14/02 05:29 PM Re: Jonesy's unexpected cause of death [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


I'm trying to figure out it it could have been due to something toxic. The only thing I could possibly think of would be sunflower seeds that I sometimes give as treats. Could that have to do with it?
Thanks for all of the input.

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#3136 - 03/14/02 07:31 PM Re: Jonesy's unexpected cause of death [Re: ]
PepPony Offline
Glider Slave

Registered: 11/27/01
Posts: 2088
Amy--It could have been aflatoxins. This is a toxin produced by a fungus and is associated with corn in southern regions, peanuts, rice, and other grains. This happens during periods of drought when these grains are stored in silos and the fungus Aspergillus flavus or Aspergillus parasiticus produce a mycotoxin known as "Aflatoxin".
I believe this is what Sheila was eluding to. Crickets that are housed in corn bedding or corn fed or for that matter any cricket housed or fed the affected grain can harbor aflatoxins. It combines with cricket DNA and is almost impossible to detect.
So here are the possible culprits--corn, peanuts, crickets, other grains or byproducts of any of these things. Did your glider receive any of these? If so, that was probably the culprit.

John (Rocky & Adrienne)

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#3137 - 03/14/02 08:55 PM Re: Jonesy's unexpected cause of death [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


My gliders get the canned Zoo Meds crickets, none live, and Jonesy never ate them. They never get corn because I know that's high in phosphorus. The only grain he would have gotten would be Special K or Rice Krispys on occasion. As a very special treat, he would get a crumb of an oyster cracker. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" /> I still can't figure out what this could be from. I'm worried because Smei gets the same diet as him, and I'm not sure what to change, or if it really was diet to begin with. The vets really didn't seem to think it was diet, but I think that the people on this board are often better educated than vets are when it comes to gliders.
If it was diet related, why didn't he shows signs of any illness before this? It was so sudden! And what about Smei?
Thanks again for all the input, you're all so helpful!
Amy and Smei

<small>[ 03-14-2002, 10:00 PM: Message edited by: Amy ]</small>

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#3138 - 03/15/02 12:51 AM Re: Jonesy's unexpected cause of death [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


It's probably also important to note that aflatoxin livers have a very specific look, and that most every glider who dies of an illness will show damage to their liver. It's a jump to assume that a damaged liver = aflatoxin. So in the absence of testing, it would be impossible to know for sure.

Just watch your other glider, Amy. It doesn't sound like your diet had these problems. Just watch for any signs of illness or lethargy.

So sorry you're going through this. <img border="0" alt="worried" title="" src="graemlins/worried2.gif" />

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#3139 - 03/15/02 03:22 AM Re: Jonesy's unexpected cause of death [Re: Anonymous]
Sheila Offline
Serious Glideritis

Registered: 02/05/00
Posts: 5363
Loc: Ok
What I was referring to was not necessarily the aflitoxins. Fungus can be on meal worms too. For instance, when I put a potato in my meal worm farm, I wash it then dry it. If I put just a wet potatoe in there, it will have mold or fungus on the oatmeal after a few days. This causes the mealworms to eat it and die, thence losing the farm.
Fungus can also get on fruits that look bruised.
_________________________
ToandFro Gliders

http://www.toandfrogliders.com

USDA Licensed breeder for 12 years and counting!

WE SELL THE STEALTH WHEEL

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#3140 - 03/15/02 06:49 PM Re: Jonesy's unexpected cause of death [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Do you feed your gliders BML? and if you do do you change it at all or select for high calcium fruits/vegies etc.
There was a discussion earlier this month
http://sg.nsci.net/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=3;t=002513
about warnings about the diet and increased liver size. I don't want to start anything I feel the BML diet when used properly is a very good diet I was just wondering.
Other things that could of caused it is if your glider got poisoned. Was he a chewer or could of gotten into perfume, cleaner, toxic plant etc. all could be potentially harmful.

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#3141 - 03/15/02 09:29 PM Re: Jonesy's unexpected cause of death [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


There are no perfumes, cleaners, or plants in the room. It is extremely bare and glider safe. I feed a diet that is something like the BML, I suppose, but not quite. I feed a leadbeaters recipe that is different from the one on the BML link, which might be due to the fact that I haven't been on this site in a long time, probably well over a year. I also feed 1 tablespoon fruits and 1 of veggies with a large amount of variety. I don't feed corn or collard greens, which I've read can throw off calcium/phosphorus ratios. The leadbeaters that I make does not include babyfood like Bourbon's does, but I often add a bit on the side of the dish. I also feed boiled chicken / eggs, and tuna on occasion when we were out of chicken. As I stated earlier, I feed Zoo Med's canned crickets, but Jonesy never really liked or ate insects.
I'm still baffled by all of this. Thanks for all the help.
Amy and Smei

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#3142 - 03/15/02 10:27 PM Re: Jonesy's unexpected cause of death [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Did you use a vitamin supplement at all?
Too many vitamins can also cause it.

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#3143 - 03/16/02 11:50 PM Re: Jonesy's unexpected cause of death [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


akat- I only use a small amount of RepCal, which is mostly in the leadbeaters. About every 2 weeks I sprinkle a tiny amount over their fruits and veggies because they don't always eat the leadbeaters. I'd worry more that he wasn't geting Enough vitamins.
In trying to find a cause for this, what kind of timeframe am I looking at? I don't know how far I should be thinking back.
Thanks, Amy and Smei

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